Building a serve from scratch

[Hewex]

ok, it's outdoor season now and I can hit serves to my hearts delight. I want to build a new serve just as I am building a new fh( and that's coming along great). I'm willing to start completely over and put in the "hard yards" that go along with that.

So, some questions on the core things to focus on. Here is what I am looking to do.

A. Pace, enough to keep people honest. Being only 5.8", I know I have limitations.

B. Dependable first serve.

C. Very solid second serve....I double fault a lot!


Here's what seem to be the 6 keys to a good serve and where I am at. Feel free to comment, add or eliminate.



1. Grip: I've been taught a good grip.

2. Stance: I'm not sure how to align my feet.

3. Ball toss: terribly inconsistant

4 Knee bend: needs improvement

5. Backscratch position: Understand it, not sure I am doing it, or at least enough.

6. Explosion up to the ball: Sometimes, have to focus on doing it

7: Full extension: Same as #6



Don't have any video yet, but will try and post some tomorrow. I just wanted some feedback as to whether I'm on target with the key components.


Thanks!

 

[LeeD]

Control speed of your swing, faster for topspin second serves, slightly slower for flattish fast first serves.
Try not to vary the speed of your swings for each different serve. Not to swing the same for every serve, but to swing the same speed for each different serve, and don't confuse your swings with the wrong serve.
Turn your back slightly to your opponent/target, feet slightly closed. If you rotate into your serves, you might close your stance more.
The socalled backscratch, at trophy, should be exactly the same for each different serve. The forward swing makes the allowances for different swings for different kinds and locations of serves.
Watch the ball.
Practice your toss at least 50 times a session, twice a day EVERY day, until you no longer need to chase your tosses when you serve. You'll need different toss locations for each wide first serve, the middle can be fudged, then different toss locations for top/slice serves, and top/twist serves, with 2 locations for each target area.

 

[dozu]

ok, Hewex, we are both 3.5, but I have a 6.0 serve.... so here is how to serve like a 6.0

hold the racket so light that it's gonna almost fall out of your hand... maintain that grip pressure thru out the entire motion, and brush the ball at 1 oclock..

there is your 6.0 serve LOLOL.

just kidding... I know Lee will chime in soon enough.. Lee, don't take too long.

meanwhile, you can find a couple of guys at your level to progress together, there is plenty of wisdom here to carry you guys all the way to the 4.5 land.

 

[larry10s]

go to fuzzy yellow balls progression series not regular lesson series.
good way to build your serve
the buy MPH dvd by pat dougherty "the serve doctor"

 

[TimothyO]

Hewex,

I'm in a similar boat. Not as experienced as you (I'm new to tennis) and trying to build a serve from scratch. This past week I've had some huge breakthroughs on both flat and spin serves. Here's what helped me:

1. Most important...practice every day. For the last few weeks I've been at the courts every day for about 30+ minutes of serves, all alone. I read somewhere that you want to limit these sessions to about 50 serves to avoid straining yourself. To limit the stress I fit 6-8 balls in my pockets. After hitting these I walk to the other side, retrieve the balls, and hit 'em again. No 100-ball baskets for this 40-something! The little break is very arm-friendly and I've experience no pain from these sessions. The improvement has been absolutely huge, especially in toss consistency.

2. Vary the practice. Sometimes I focus on the same sort of serve over and over. Other times I play "games" against myself. If I don't double fault I get the point. If I double fault my "opponent" gets the point. I do first and second servers as if in a real game. Often I use only 6 balls and if I run out of balls due to double faults before winning the game then I lose.

3. Ball Toss: I started using my left foot (I'm right handed) to guide my toss. Huge improvement in toss angle consistency! The foot serves as a reference point. Keep your left hand extended/up as long as possible to serve as a vertical reference point (this also helps with shoulder rotation and extension). With your left foot and left hand to guide angle and height you'll become more consistent.

4. Knee bend/back scratch/explosion/extension: I struggle with these too and found the best remedy is a brief pause before the toss. During that pause I visualize the serve from beginning to end. I try to see it and feel it as perfectly as possible. That focus makes a huge difference in consistency and quality.

5. Breathing: Before the toss and while visualizing the serve I take a deep breathe and exhale fully. This also calms the nerves. During the toss and back swing I inhale deeply and during the explosion/swing to contact I exhale quickly, almost as in martial arts. This also provides a rhythm to the swing which prevents it from "stuttering" into distinct sub-phases. A smoother swing is more accurate, more consistent, and safer on the arm and shoulder.

 

[Sreeram]

I did the same 2 months back. Be ready to lose few matches, when you rebuild your serve results will be very normal improvement. But go hard at your second serve with spin action in mind. By hard I meant fast rubbing action on the ball. Dont ever try to just put the serve in no matter how preasure situation you are. Thats what builds character. You dont need a win by just putting the serve in.

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

There's some excellent advice above. A good tip for developing a reliable toss is to lay the wrist back thoughout the motion. Most players have a tendency to flex the wrist as they approach the release point.

It's very generic advice, I know, but it all starts with your throwing motion. If you throw like a girl, start pitching a baseball around and loosen that arm up. My coach has me serving with no legs right now, just loose acceleration of the arm upwards.

People love to talk about using the legs, hips, etc. to maximize your serve, but what some people don't realize is that that stuff is worthless if you can't control the toss and your arm is tight.

 

[upbeat]

One thing that could help developing that spin for your 2nd serve is to bring a mat to the court with you, and serve on your knees. This will force you to hit te ball upwards, with the consequent need to spin it to bring back down to the box. It will also take the leg work and core turn off the table, allowing you to focus on how the raquet needs to hit/brush the ball. You can add all this other stuff later on when you don't need to think of what your arm and wrist is doing anymore.

 

[Sreeram]

My coach has me serving with no legs right now, just loose acceleration of the arm upwards.
.

Thats a perfect coach who knows how to build from scratch. But most guys here will say legs are important and one cannot learn serve without using them. Legs are important but of no use if you dont translate all the accleration into the ball.

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

Yeah, he's a cool guy. He said "serve is 80% arm, maybe more. The legs will help you get a little power and they can get you to net quicker, but you need to start with the arm motion."

 

[Kevo]

#3 is most important. You will never have a good serve without a good toss. Toss is where everything starts for good or bad. Having a bad toss and working on exploding into the ball is a recipe for future frustration.

I don't have students work on much more than toss and swing path when starting out. Legs confuse things. Once you can hit a reliable serve then you can start to add in the "enhancers".

Without a reliable toss and swing, all the "enhancers" will do is prevent you from building a reliable toss and swing. At least that's been my experience. It's too easy to build bad habits, so you have to be careful how many moving parts you work with when you don't know how to control them.

 

[Hewex]

Some really great stuff here. The ball toss seems to be the best place to start. I'll work on that along with the arm swing. As that is successful, I can add other things.

I will check out FYB's vids as well. But, I wanted to get some input from you all. I'm not holding serve much as it is, so making big changes shouldn't be a huge step backward for me.

Thanks!

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

That's the best way to make changes. Start off sucking royally (like me) and then you have no expectations to live up to with the new technique.

 

[rkelley]

Serve

A couple of comments:

1. I assume it's a continental grip. There are variations on this, but the continental will let you hit all serves (flat, slice, top, kick) well.

2. Again there are variations, but (for righties) basically have the line between your feet parallel with side lines when you're in the duece court. Rotate about 20° or so clockwise when serving to the ad court.

I'm a big fan of not moving your feet when you serve (a la Sampras, Fed, Mac, etc.). The biggest reason is that it takes one variable out of the equation. If you're not moving your feet it will be that easier to get a good toss and be balanced through out the serve motion. Lots of folks slide their back foot up during the motion so it certainly can work, but keeping all of your motions as simple as possible I think is good goal.

3. Gotta fix that ball toss. Visualize the spot where you want the toss and toss to that spot. A good way to help yourself is to take practice swings without tossing and see where the racquet head goes. When you feel a good swing (somewhat subjective, I know), that's probably the spot you want the toss.

It's a good idea to actually break down your serve into tosses and swings when you're trying to do a major revamp. When you practice the swing without the toss you can focus on the knee bend, exploding up to the ball, balance, keeping your arm and wrist loose, etc. Then practice the toss. Then put them together. Go back and forth on this. It's a little boring but it helps.

Also generally just try to keep it simple. You're basically throwing the racquet at the ball. It should be a nice, simple and easy motion. If you're doing a lot of motions before the serve, or jerking the racquet around before you "pull the trigger," you're probably not helping yourself. Ultimately, you should feel like that you can get about 70% of your power with about 30% of your maximum effort. That kind of feeling tells you that you have a reasonably efficient motion.

Don't worry about the backscratching thing. That's a result of doing other things right, not something you directly try to do. DO worry about where the racquet is just before you pull the trigger. You want that "trophy pose" position with the racquet cocked back and pointing more or less straight up.

Check out youtube videos of some of the pros. Federer and Sampras have nice motions to copy. Notice that no matter what any of these folks do before the serve that they all look about the same as they're hitting the ball.

Good luck.

Rich

1. Grip: I've been taught a good grip.

2. Stance: I'm not sure how to align my feet.

3. Ball toss: terribly inconsistant

4 Knee bend: needs improvement

5. Backscratch position: Understand it, not sure I am doing it, or at least enough.

6. Explosion up to the ball: Sometimes, have to focus on doing it

7: Full extension: Same as #6
Thanks!

 

[Caloi]

Some really great stuff here. The ball toss seems to be the best place to start. I'll work on that along with the arm swing. As that is successful, I can add other things.

I will check out FYB's vids as well. But, I wanted to get some input from you all. I'm not holding serve much as it is, so making big changes shouldn't be a huge step backward for me.

Thanks!

One of the things FYB's mentions is, "Down together, up together". It helps keep the rhythm in the serve...at least it did for me.

I could also join this bandwagon as I've gone from a platform stance all my life to a pinpoint stance this winter. Sheesh, it took some getting used to but I feel I'm more consistent now.

 

[Sreeram]

When I started my serve from scrath recently,
1. I concentrated on toss control based on different serve that I have.
2. Second, a trophy pos, this is what you do before you explode towards the ball. Previously i was hurrying into my serve lacking an explosion. A good tropy pos should add an element of delay into your serve.
3. explode with all the energy you can to put into the ball.

Previously I used to model my serve with Murray and get confused with so many aspects but now I have only these 3 aspects. Whatever best foot and body placement help me to get the best in all these 3 steps is the best serve action that suits me. Instead if you try to copy the serve action of pro it will not suit you and may not lead you to step 3 which is most important.

 

[charliefedererer]

The tossing motion is about smoothly getting into an aggressive trophy position from which you can explode.

You've got to start every serve with a smooth toss, bringing the tossing arm up and up and up at the same time you are turning away from the ball and going into a "bow" position with your body.

Here are the videos to get tossing motion that gets you into an aggressive trophy position:

Tennis Serve Toss - How to Hold the Ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8kynEzufNE
Tennis Serve Tossing Motion Tempo 1. Get the ball in place 2. Turn away as you toss 3. Get your front hip out to counterbalance the backward upper body lean to get into a bow position: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZp90h-Ar8&feature=channel
Watch how Federer, Murray, Hass, Hewitt, Davydenko, Safin, Tsonga all make the same move when tossing the ball. Keys to a good toss: Upper body turn during the backswing, hang on to the ball by the finger tips, follow through after releasing the ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIF-UaRUd6k
Tennis Lesson: Serve Tips: Lead with the Hip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgeYmEScfgQ


The serve itself then progresses from an aggressive leg pushoff, uncoiling, and reversing the bow shape so that it is these big body motions that power your serve.

The Serve Doctor's MPH video enthusiastically explains how to use your body to power your serve: http://www.servedoctor.com/ The download price is a steal. In a series of clips, Pat Dougherty breaks down the serve into its component big movements, then reassembles the big movements into a smooth serve. As such, you don't get lost in making one small body part adjustment, only to screw up the next move in the sequence.

[Someday when you want to pick up many, many fine points that will lead to adjustments in your serve, subscribe to John Yandell's Tennisplayer.net and go through Brian Gordon's 3D Biomechanics analysis, but for now it would be information overload. Later, it will help you understand where the deep racquet drop and proper body/chest angles will smooth out your serve and add more miles per hour and spin.]


Also don't injure yourself with all your serve practice. At a minimum be doing the thrower's ten to get your shoulder (and to a lesser extent forearm and wrist) in shape for all that serving: http://www.asmi.org/SportsMed/throwing/thrower10.html
And at a minimum take Jim McLennans's advise on using a shoulder over shoulder cartwheel technique not only to gain greater power on your serve, but even more importantly to protect your rotator cuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s&feature=related

Good luck!

 

[Hewex]

The tossing motion is about smoothly getting into an aggressive trophy position from which you can explode.

You've got to start every serve with a smooth toss, bringing the tossing arm up and up and up at the same time you are turning away from the ball and going into a "bow" position with your body.

Here are the videos to get tossing motion that gets you into an aggressive trophy position:

Tennis Serve Toss - How to Hold the Ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8kynEzufNE
Tennis Serve Tossing Motion Tempo 1. Get the ball in place 2. Turn away as you toss 3. Get your front hip out to counterbalance the backward upper body lean to get into a bow position: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZp90h-Ar8&feature=channel
Watch how Federer, Murray, Hass, Hewitt, Davydenko, Safin, Tsonga all make the same move when tossing the ball. Keys to a good toss: Upper body turn during the backswing, hang on to the ball by the finger tips, follow through after releasing the ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIF-UaRUd6k
Tennis Lesson: Serve Tips: Lead with the Hip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgeYmEScfgQ


The serve itself then progresses from an aggressive leg pushoff, uncoiling, and reversing the bow shape so that it is these big body motions that power your serve.

The Serve Doctor's MPH video enthusiastically explains how to use your body to power your serve: http://www.servedoctor.com/ The download price is a steal. In a series of clips, Pat Dougherty breaks down the serve into its component big movements, then reassembles the big movements into a smooth serve. As such, you don't get lost in making one small body part adjustment, only to screw up the next move in the sequence.

[Someday when you want to pick up many, many fine points that will lead to adjustments in your serve, subscribe to John Yandell's Tennisplayer.net and go through Brian Gordon's 3D Biomechanics analysis, but for now it would be information overload. Later, it will help you understand where the deep racquet drop and proper body/chest angles will smooth out your serve and add more miles per hour and spin.]


Also don't injure yourself with all your serve practice. At a minimum be doing the thrower's ten to get your shoulder (and to a lesser extent forearm and wrist) in shape for all that serving: http://www.asmi.org/SportsMed/throwing/thrower10.html
And at a minimum take Jim McLennans's advise on using a shoulder over shoulder cartwheel technique not only to gain greater power on your serve, but even more importantly to protect your rotator cuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s&feature=related

Good luck!

Very helpful, Thanks Charlie and everyone else!

I thought I knew how important the toss was, but the emphasis on it in the responses has even surpassed that. I don't think I have ever worked on it or practiced it. Now, that is going to change. I have a lot of studying to do with all the resources everyone has brought in.

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

Very helpful, Thanks Charlie and everyone else!

I thought I knew how important the toss was, but the emphasis on it in the responses has even surpassed that. I don't think I have ever worked on it or practiced it. Now, that is going to change. I have a lot of studying to do with all the resources everyone has brought in.

The ball toss needs to be approached like an AA meeting. The first step is admitting that you have a problem.

 

[dozu]

The ball toss needs to be approached like an AA meeting. The first step is admitting that you have a problem.

isn't that true for every stroke.

I have tried to educate my old dogs, that the first step towards progress is admitting suckyness. some of them will always find an excuse after making a bad shot... bad bounce, gust, foot slipped etc, while the real cause is swing flaw.

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

Clearly they haven't moved on to step 2: realizing that there is a higher Dozu that can help them.

 

[dozu]

no, clearly not

 

[yellowoctopus]

Control speed of your swing, faster for topspin second serves, slightly slower for flattish fast first serves.

Try not to vary the speed of your swings for each different serve.

Not to swing the same for every serve, but to swing the same speed for each different serve, and don't confuse your swings with the wrong serve.

 

[Hewex]

no, clearly not

Most of us aren't willing to get worse before we get better, especially in front of our regular partners. Instead, we hold onto that one great match that we had back in 2002, when every groundstroke was a winner. We just know we have a great fh, bh or serve because we've hit great shots(occasionally). Why would we make a change knowing we'd be bad for weeks or even months when we might play great this weekend?

In the two years since I started playing again( after 25+ away), I've taken lessons, done drills, and played a lot of matches. But, my results are just about what they were two years ago. I've come to realize that my tennis is only as good as my athleticism is that day. So, I have nothing to lose by completely rebuilding my game using the correct techniques. It's hard to suck for a while until the new muscle memory kicks in. But, it's not as hard when you already suck.

 

[Ajtat411]

It's a good thing that you want to rebuild everything from scratch. It will be a tough journey but I think it will be worth it in the end when you don't have to worry about your technique and just play.

You forgot: Fluid motion, proper takeback, and balance.

One tip: Don't focus on power in the beginning. Power comes at the end.

My goal is to be able to hit my serve with my eyes closed. I still have quite some time.

 

[LeeD]

Of course you don't understand my post. Your serves are below quality levfel for your playing level!
Once you understand that your basic swing is 3 different types, and you need first and second serves, then you need different placements off the same stance and toss location, you'll start to understand my post.
Right now, if you have ONE basic serve, a top/slice blasting and more careful, you cannot possibly comprehend what it takes to develop flats, twists, top/slices, tops, and pure slices for both first and second serves, hit into THREE different locations into each service court.
How can you? You're serving at step ONE.

 

[Ajtat411]

I think the OP should really just focus on the fundamentals of the serve at this time. Although you will eventually want to know how to target the different portions of the service box and creating different looking serves. LeeD is talking about the latter.

Focus on building your serve mechanics and groove it before complicating things. Start simple and build from there.

 

[yellowoctopus]

Of course you don't understand my post. Your serves are below quality levfel for your playing level!

You have no idea how I serve, or do I yours.

I think your statements are contradicting. How can one possibly tell people to control the [different] speed of the swing for different serves, then on the next sentence tell people not to vary the speed of the swing for different serves? Apparently it has been done here...

Originally Posted by LeeD View Post
Control speed of your swing, faster for topspin second serves, slightly slower for flattish fast first serves.

Try not to vary the speed of your swings for each different serve.

Not to swing the same for every serve, but to swing the same speed for each different serve, and don't confuse your swings with the wrong serve.

 

[LeeD]

You show your lack of service right again!
We're talking about consistency, right? A good server swings slightly faster on the second serve than he does on the first. The first is flatter, so goes faster.
On each different serve, from twist to top/slice to top, to flat and pure slice, there is an "ideal" swing speed that is most consistent and you know it goes it most often. That is the swingspeed for each different serve.
You know this, but you're trying to be figure it out from scratch.
And example. Most players swing about 80% to hit their first flats.
So on second serves, closer to 90% effort. That's a slow spinner with tons of spin.
For twists, most servers swing SLOWER.
For top/slices, most servers swing the fastest.
For pure tops for hops, and for wide slices, they swing medium speed.
YOU KNOW THIS!

 

[Hewex]

Another cool and wet day here, not sure I can get out and practice. I've looking at a lot of the resources, especially on the toss.

Back in the 70's when I started playing as a kid, I was taught to hold the toss in the fingertips. Is that the correct method now? I struggled with not releasing it properly that way and I see some of the pro's hold it more into the palm than the fingers.

Also, as I "arm" the serves to start with, would it make sense to work on a mild slice serve?

Thanks for all the responses. I'm getting a lot from the discussion.

 

[Ajtat411]

^I have a hard time tossing with just my fingers also. I don't think there is a correct method, just get the ball to where you want it on a consistent basis is key.

For tossing action, you want to focus on a straight arm toss using your shoulder/arm socket as the swivel point and release the ball at about eye/head level and follow through with the tossing hand as if you were tracing a ) shape. Some people describe the point of release similar to "placing the ball on a shelf". Keep your eye on the spot you want to hit the ball at and let your body do the work and practice plenty.

You should not be "arming" the serve on any serves. Try to stay loose and relaxed on each serve and focus on being loose and getting a fluid continuous motion going. A fluid motion will stand up better when you are in pressure situations.

 

[Chenx15]

The ball toss needs to be approached like an AA meeting. The first step is admitting that you have a problem.

you are too smart for this forum!!! hahahaha

 

[SlapChop]

I just rebuilt my serve AGAIN. I really like what I came up with. I quit moving my feet and got my toss under control. I take a more natural approach to the whole process. I was feeling awkward using all the styles from everywhere so I slightly modified to what feels comfortable to me.

I think feeling natural is a huge part of make YOUR serve work for YOU.

 

[Chenx15]

you have the biggest advantage of starting from scratch. I posted this somewhere and i will post it again.

focus on forearm pronation/shoulder internal rotation
1. stand behind the baseline in a serving position and all you do is low toss and hit the ball with pronation/internal rotation only and on't think of placement
2. low toss hit the ball with internal rotation with direction but no power.
3. once you get the hang of it, go through the full arm motion without body movements and lower extremity movements
4. progress with focusing on power and spins

the reason for this progression is you want to get the proper feel of the shot. A flat serve will fell like a volley shot, while a kick serve will feel like a windshield wiper forehand

 

[Hewex]

^I have a hard time tossing with just my fingers also. I don't think there is a correct method, just get the ball to where you want it on a consistent basis is key.

For tossing action, you want to focus on a straight arm toss using your shoulder/arm socket as the swivel point and release the ball at about eye/head level and follow through with the tossing hand as if you were tracing a ) shape. Some people describe the point of release similar to "placing the ball on a shelf". Keep your eye on the spot you want to hit the ball at and let your body do the work and practice plenty.

You should not be "arming" the serve on any serves. Try to stay loose and relaxed on each serve and focus on being loose and getting a fluid continuous motion going. A fluid motion will stand up better when you are in pressure situations.

Some of the advice was to practice that way in order to get the correct motion. Being loose is definitely a part of that. I agree with you on the fluid motion. Good advice on the toss. Thanks.

 

[Hewex]

I just rebuilt my serve AGAIN. I really like what I came up with. I quit moving my feet and got my toss under control. I take a more natural approach to the whole process. I was feeling awkward using all the styles from everywhere so I slightly modified to what feels comfortable to me.

I think feeling natural is a huge part of make YOUR serve work for YOU.

I'm totally where you were at, especially moving my feet and needing to get them under me.

 

[Hewex]

you have the biggest advantage of starting from scratch. I posted this somewhere and i will post it again.

focus on forearm pronation/shoulder internal rotation
1. stand behind the baseline in a serving position and all you do is low toss and hit the ball with pronation/internal rotation only and on't think of placement
2. low toss hit the ball with internal rotation with direction but no power.
3. once you get the hang of it, go through the full arm motion without body movements and lower extremity movements
4. progress with focusing on power and spins

the reason for this progression is you want to get the proper feel of the shot. A flat serve will fell like a volley shot, while a kick serve will feel like a windshield wiper forehand

Love this, very simple and easy to follow. Thank you!

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

Hewex, the most important thing with the toss is keeping a consistent angle with the wrist. This is why some people use the "glass of water" style where the wrist is inverted--- because the tendency to break the wrist is reduced. If you want to stick with the normal style with the ball in the fingers, try laying your wrist back and keeping it laid back throughout the motion. Once you get the wristiness out of the toss you'll be amazed at how simple it is.

 

[Hewex]

Hewex, the most important thing with the toss is keeping a consistent angle with the wrist. This is why some people use the "glass of water" style where the wrist is inverted--- because the tendency to break the wrist is reduced. If you want to stick with the normal style with the ball in the fingers, try laying your wrist back and keeping it laid back throughout the motion. Once you get the wristiness out of the toss you'll be amazed at how simple it is.

Good timing. I was thinking about this. I'll experiment with the glass of water method.