Bump up, move up, split up question.

[J011yroger]

You can only have 3 national players on a team, but if you get bumped up, does that count as moving up?

Example, you are a 3.5, and play on a 4.0 team that went to nationals. Do you count as a national player for 4.0? What if you were a 3.5 on a 7.0 national team and got bumped up to 4.0, would you count as a national player in 7.0 still?

It doesn't seem like you should, especially in mixed. Going from 3.5-4.0 and having to play with a weaker partner seems like punishment enough in 7.0, and making a bump up 3.5 play 8.0 with a 4.0 partner is unfair (higher division and a weaker partner.)

J

 

[g4driver]

All players who qualify for Nationals count against the three-person rule.

Happened to our team this year. Four players on our 8.0 team were bumped in Dec after Mixed Nationals were played in Nov 2016. All four of the bumped up players were not allowed to play on the team with the three "keepers"

Those four bumped up players signed up for the team, but were removed from the roster about a week prior to the league starting after the local league coordinator called the Captain telling the Captain her team was "illegal".

This decision was vetted at the State and Southern Sectional level. Idiotic ? Yes. But that is USTA tennis. The players had to play at a DNTRP higher level, but aren't allowed to play with more than three of their former teammates. Our 2016 team was split up into four 2017 teams.

 

[J011yroger]

All players who qualify for Nationals count against the three-person rule.

Happened to our team this year. Four players on our 8.0 team were bumped in Dec after Mixed Nationals were played in Nov 2016. All four of the bumped up players were not allowed to play on the team with the three "keepers"

Those four bumped up players signed up for the team, but were removed from the roster about a week prior to the league starting after the local league coordinator called the Captain telling the Captain her team was "illegal".

This decision was vetted at the State and Southern Sectional level. Idiotic ? Yes. But that is USTA tennis. The players had to play at a DNTRP higher level, but aren't allowed to play with more than three of their former teammates. Our 2016 team was split up into four 2017 teams.

It makes no sense for mixed.

J

 

[schmke]

I believe @g4driver is correct. It is the team that must be at the higher level the following year to be considered moving up as a team in order to bypass the split-up rule. Not individual players just being at a higher level.

Here is the relevant rule from the 2017 regulations (bolding from me):

2.06A(2) Mixed Divisions: Teams and team members that advanced to, or qualified for, any Mixed Division National Championship may play together as a team, in whole or in part, in any Age Group within the Mixed Division if they move up one NTRP team level in accordance with the following table. These players may combine and play at any level for which they are eligible in the Adult Division.​

And the table is nothing special, it says a 6.0 team must move up to 7.0, a 7.0 team up to 8.0, etc.

Note that the 2018 rule is changing slightly as I wrote on my blog a few weeks ago and again today (Google it or you should know where to go!), to not require split-up if a group of players play in a different age-group within a division.

2.06A(2): Split-Up - No more than three (3) players who were on the roster of any team that advanced to, or qualified for, any National Championship team the previous year may play together in the same Division, same Age Group and at the same NTRP team level as the National Championship team(s), if their NTRP rating allows. Split-Up requirements only apply to players who participated in three (3) or more matches (including one default) for that team during the championship year.​

 

[schmke]

It makes no sense for mixed.

J

Let your local/section coordinator know. They have tweaked this rule several times, presumably based on feedback they received, so let your voice be heard.

 

[g4driver]

People in charge of something making rules that only penalize friends and players.

I can give you the name of our Captain if you want to email or call her. She thought she could play the four bump-up players with the three keepers but Southern Section said Nope.

 

[J_R_B]

I believe @g4driver is correct. It is the team that must be at the higher level the following year to be considered moving up as a team in order to bypass the split-up rule. Not individual players just being at a higher level.

Here is the relevant rule from the 2017 regulations (bolding from me):

2.06A(2) Mixed Divisions: Teams and team members that advanced to, or qualified for, any Mixed Division National Championship may play together as a team, in whole or in part, in any Age Group within the Mixed Division if they move up one NTRP team level in accordance with the following table. These players may combine and play at any level for which they are eligible in the Adult Division.​

And the table is nothing special, it says a 6.0 team must move up to 7.0, a 7.0 team up to 8.0, etc.

Note that the 2018 rule is changing slightly as I wrote on my blog a few weeks ago and again today (Google it or you should know where to go!), to not require split-up if a group of players play in a different age-group within a division.

2.06A(2): Split-Up - No more than three (3) players who were on the roster of any team that advanced to, or qualified for, any National Championship team the previous year may play together in the same Division, same Age Group and at the same NTRP team level as the National Championship team(s), if their NTRP rating allows. Split-Up requirements only apply to players who participated in three (3) or more matches (including one default) for that team during the championship year.​

I'm glad they changed some of this. When I was trying to piece together a roster the year after my nationals run, I had to check whether every player I wanted to ask to join had played in nationals in mixed or lower levels if they were a bump-up or other age groups or other sections. The old rules made it unnecessarily harder to be a captain.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I believe @g4driver is correct. It is the team that must be at the higher level the following year to be considered moving up as a team in order to bypass the split-up rule. Not individual players just being at a higher level.

Maybe I haven't been around USTA long enough, but how does an entire team get bumped together? Wouldn't that have to be the result of each individual player getting bumped individually? And that seems very unlikely.

 

[g4driver]

Maybe I haven't been around USTA long enough, but how does an entire team get bumped together? Wouldn't that have to be the result of each individual player getting bumped individually? And that seems very unlikely.

Pretty sure he meant the USTA allows an entire team to stay together if they choose to play at the higher level. In our case, our team could have all stayed on the same team if we wanted to play 9.0 mixed, but only three players could play on any teams if we played at 8.0.

Our players scattered across four 8.0 teams and the 3.5 guy who was bumped didn’t play 8.0 at all.

Like others have written, it doesn’t make much sense to ban the players who are bumped up from 3.5 to 4.0 or 4.0 to 4.5 from playing on the same 8.0 team, since they get a lower rated partner, but the USAT are unbending for that 3 person max rule.

 

[time_fly]

Example, you are a 3.5, and play on a 4.0 team that went to nationals. Do you count as a national player for 4.0?
J

If you are a 3.5 player "playing up" and winning matches at 4.0 nationals you should be kicked in the nuts for sandbagging.

 

[J_R_B]

If you are a 3.5 player "playing up" and winning matches at 4.0 nationals you should be kicked in the nuts for sandbagging.

These rules don't say anything about winning. If you have a very thin team and can only find 7 strong players that can go to nationals plus one of your buddies who helped out by playing up a couple times during the year, then he can end up being a sacrificial lamb in every match, not get rated up, and still win nationals at a higher level.

 

[J011yroger]

If you are a 3.5 player "playing up" and winning matches at 4.0 nationals you should be kicked in the nuts for sandbagging.

You don't even have to go to Nationals, nevermind win. If you are a benchwarmer who went in at 3rd doubles twice to prevent a default and got a default, you still count as a national player.

J

 

[MisterP]

If you are a 3.5 player "playing up" and winning matches at 4.0 nationals you should be kicked in the nuts for sandbagging.

Eh. I knew a guy, sorta famous actually, who started the season as a very average 3.5 but did lessons several times per week with a 5.0 and improved to a strong 4.0 by the end of the season. It happens.

 

[J_R_B]

You don't even have to go to Nationals, nevermind win. If you are a benchwarmer who went in at 3rd doubles twice to prevent a default and got a default, you still count as a national player.

J

Three times, J-Man. They changed it so that you have to play at least three times to be considered a "nationals" player. In other words, you have to play enough to qualify to go to nationals regardless of whether you actually do or not.

 

[J011yroger]

Three times, J-Man. They changed it so that you have to play at least three times to be considered a "nationals" player. In other words, you have to play enough to qualify to go to nationals regardless of whether you actually do or not.

Two plays and a default, just like I said.

J

 

[schmke]

Two plays and a default, just like I said.

J

@J011yroger is right, they changed the rule to allow for one default to count for the three matches required for Nationals eligibility.

 

[J_R_B]

Two plays and a default, just like I said.

J

I know when I was captain with a contending team, I wouldn't put my fill-in players in the default spots. Those have to be used strategically to get the players that you actually want to play in the playoffs eligible.

 

[J011yroger]

I know when I was captain with a contending team, I wouldn't put my fill-in players in the default spots. Those have to be used strategically to get the players that you actually want to play in the playoffs eligible.

Irrelevant.

J

 

[Local Girl]

Our league coordinator said the 2018 move up/split up rule allows any number of championship players to play together in the same division and age group but at a lower level, if their rating allows. This means any number of 4.0 or 3.5 players who went to 2017 Mixed 18 8.0 nationals, can still play together on a 2018 Mixed 18 7.0. She said there are no (3-player) restrictions when they play at the lower level. Is this true in your section, too?

 

[J011yroger]

Our league coordinator said the 2018 move up/split up rule allows any number of championship players to play together in the same division and age group but at a lower level, if their rating allows. This means any number of 4.0 or 3.5 players who went to 2017 Mixed 18 8.0 nationals, can still play together on a 2018 Mixed 18 7.0. She said there are no (3-player) restrictions when they play at the lower level. Is this true in your section, too?

Yes.

J

 

[J011yroger]

Our league coordinator said the 2018 move up/split up rule allows any number of championship players to play together in the same division and age group but at a lower level, if their rating allows. This means any number of 4.0 or 3.5 players who went to 2017 Mixed 18 8.0 nationals, can still play together on a 2018 Mixed 18 7.0. She said there are no (3-player) restrictions when they play at the lower level. Is this true in your section, too?

Lower or higher or same but 40+

J

 

[Local Girl]

Lower or higher or same but 40+

J

Thank you for responding. She's allowing the 2017 Mixed 18 8.0 championship player to play on a 2018 Mixed 18 7.0 team that already has three 2017 Mixed 18 7.0 championship players . I can see if it was Mixed 40, but it's the same division and age group. Not sure what to do since she says she asked "nationals" and "they" said the 8.0 player is not considered a national player for the Mixed 18 7.0 level.

 

[J011yroger]

Thank you for responding. She's allowing the 2017 Mixed 18 8.0 championship player to play on a 2018 Mixed 18 7.0 team that already has three 2017 Mixed 18 7.0 championship players . I can see if it was Mixed 40, but it's the same division and age group. Not sure what to do since she says she asked "nationals" and "they" said the 8.0 player is not considered a national player for the Mixed 18 7.0 level.

The rules changed just this year. It used to be that they would be ok to play 9.0 but not 7.0 now anything but 18+ 8.0 is ok.

J

 

[Local Girl]

The rules changed just this year. It used to be that they would be ok to play 9.0 but not 7.0 now anything but 18+ 8.0 is ok.

J

I guess what doesn't make sense is that it allows for "super teams" comprised of championship players playing in the same division and age group, but at a lower level. Thought the rationale for move up/split up was to prevent "super teams" from forming the next year. It's highly likely this team will be advancing to nationals this year. SMH

 

[Local Girl]

Not that I don't trust my league coordinator's word , but can someone ask their league coordinator if there are no longer any restrictions on the number of championship players who play at a lower level in the same division and age group (i.e., six 2017 8.0 mixed 18 players on a 2018 7.0 mixed 18 team).

 

[J011yroger]

Not that I don't trust my league coordinator's word , but can someone ask their league coordinator if there are no longer any restrictions on the number of championship players who play at a lower level in the same division and age group (i.e., six 2017 8.0 mixed 18 players on a 2018 7.0 mixed 18 team).

It's in the rulebook.

J

 

[leech]

Not that I don't trust my league coordinator's word , but can someone ask their league coordinator if there are no longer any restrictions on the number of championship players who play at a lower level in the same division and age group (i.e., six 2017 8.0 mixed 18 players on a 2018 7.0 mixed 18 team).

Nationals Rule 2.06A(2) (https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/pdfs/2018NationalRegulations_10_18_2017.pdf)

2.06A(2): Split-Up - No more than three (3) players who were on the roster of any team that advanced to, or qualified for, any National Championship team the previous year may play together in the same Division, same Age Group and at the same NTRP team level as the National Championship team(s), if their NTRP rating allows. Split-Up requirements only apply to players who participated in three (3) or more matches (including one default) for that team during the championship year.

 

[J_R_B]

I guess what doesn't make sense is that it allows for "super teams" comprised of championship players playing in the same division and age group, but at a lower level. Thought the rationale for move up/split up was to prevent "super teams" from forming the next year. It's highly likely this team will be advancing to nationals this year. SMH

The move up / split up rules make sense for single level play (i.e. 3.5, 4.0, etc.), but are harder to translate intuitively to combination rated leagues. At the very least, these teams would have to find new, much weaker partners to move down a level unless a bunch of 7.0 rated combinations won an 8.0 national championship and then stayed 7.0 rated for the next year. If that happened, something is seriously wrong with the situation.

 

[leech]

The move up / split up rules make sense for single level play (i.e. 3.5, 4.0, etc.), but are harder to translate intuitively to combination rated leagues. At the very least, these teams would have to find new, much weaker partners to move down a level unless a bunch of 7.0 rated combinations won an 8.0 national championship and then stayed 7.0 rated for the next year. If that happened, something is seriously wrong with the situation.

Note that a team won't need to win a MXD national championship for the rule to apply, but merely advance to Nationals.

In my Section, the 40+ MXD teams that advanced to Nationals last year had the following players get bumped:

9.0 -- only three players (one 4.5 lady, one 4.0 lady, one 4.5 man) out of 16 players got bumped up.

8.0 -- one 4.5 lady, three 4.0 ladies, two 3.5 ladies, two 4.0 men, one 3.5 man....so 8/19 got bumped up. Not coincidentally, this team was the co-National champion.

7.0 -- only three players (all of whom were 3.0 players getting bumped to 3.5) out of 16 got bumped up.

 

[schmke]

Note that a team won't need to win a MXD national championship for the rule to apply, but merely advance to Nationals.

In my Section, the 40+ MXD teams that advanced to Nationals last year had the following players get bumped:

9.0 -- only three players (one 4.5 lady, one 4.0 lady, one 4.5 man) out of 16 players got bumped up.

8.0 -- one 4.5 lady, three 4.0 ladies, two 3.5 ladies, two 4.0 men, one 3.5 man....so 8/19 got bumped up. Not coincidentally, this team was the co-National champion.

7.0 -- only three players (all of whom were 3.0 players getting bumped to 3.5) out of 16 got bumped up.

This is not terribly surprising. If these players also play Adult, their rating is based only on their Adult matches and the good results they had getting to or at Nationals have no influence on the rating. And good Mixed teams often have players that are just better at Mixed or have partners they play well with such that their Adult rating may lag how well they do in Mixed.

 

[leech]

This is not terribly surprising. If these players also play Adult, their rating is based only on their Adult matches and the good results they had getting to or at Nationals have no influence on the rating. And good Mixed teams often have players that are just better at Mixed or have partners they play well with such that their Adult rating may lag how well they do in Mixed.

Oh, and the 6.0 MXD team that advanced to 40+ Nationals had 11 of 16 players bump up, which also makes sense because 2.5- and 3.0-rated players tend to improve much more rapidly than their higher rated counterparts.