Bumps by section 2020.

McLovin

Legend
Maybe some of his best wins were against other self-rates who had yet to garner a rating? Maybe he was in appeal range? Did he have any close matches against 4.0s? That's the best I got. Sounds pretty ridiculous otherwise.
Again, discounting his mixed results, he lost a total of 3 sets in 4.5 play during the 2019 season. One of those sets was to an eventual 5.0 bump, however we won the match (and also won more total games). The other 2 sets lost were in doubles, and one of his opponents in that match was an eventual 5.0 bump.

Really, I have no idea how he's still at 4.5. I don't believe he gamed the system, because if you look at his results, most of his matches he barely lost enough games to lose a set combined.
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
what's crazy is I was a lower end 4.5, now with the bumps, I have been moved back to the middle of 4.5 in my area. Guess I will be a 4.5 for life until my knees and body give up.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Maybe some of his best wins were against other self-rates who had yet to garner a rating? Maybe he was in appeal range? Did he have any close matches against 4.0s? That's the best I got. Sounds pretty ridiculous otherwise.
You can look for all of these scenarios, but his last 5 matches were 5 straight set victories at nationals. He can't play S-rates at nationals due to play requirements to be eligible, and I would be shocked if he played 4.0s at nationals, especially 4.0s whose dynamic rating was still in the 4.0 range. This one is very strange sounding.
 

n8dawg6

Legend
i havent read everything so this might be old news. southern most of the 3.0s are now 3.5s, and some doubled to 4.0. unusually high number of 3.5s moved to 4.0. most of the state tournament teams of 4.0s moved to 4.5. ive only been at it about 5 yrs, but they have never made such a comprehensive sweep up across the board. the only people who didnt get bumped are those who didnt play much or at all in the spring
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
@schmke...I have a question maybe you can help with:
There is a player who was a self-rated 4.5 on the Mid-Atlantic team that won Nationals. Discounting his mixed play, he was 14-1 on the season, and went 5-0 at Nationals, all in singles, without losing a set. Additionally, he beat 2 players during the season (one at Nationals) who were bumped to 5.0 this past week.​
So...how the F is he still a 4.5?!?!?!?​
I came across this one already, and have no idea. My ratings certainly didn't have him staying a 4.5. It is misses like this that I don't feel bad about as it not only doesn't pass the smell test, but it doesn't pass my unbiased and objective algorithm either. Perhaps it is remarkable I'm as accurate as I am with the USTA doing crazy stuff like this. If only my algorithm were used, he'd be a 5.0!
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I came across this one already, and have no idea. My ratings certainly didn't have him staying a 4.5. It is misses like this that I don't feel bad about as it not only doesn't pass the smell test, but it doesn't pass my unbiased and objective algorithm either. Perhaps it is remarkable I'm as accurate as I am with the USTA doing crazy stuff like this. If only my algorithm were used, he'd be a 5.0!
Did you have him as 3 strikes?

J
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Maybe some of his best wins were against other self-rates who had yet to garner a rating? Maybe he was in appeal range? Did he have any close matches against 4.0s? That's the best I got. Sounds pretty ridiculous otherwise.
I show two early matches against self-rates, everything in playoffs was rated. And he only played one 4.0 on the year.

Now, he did play a few matches in another section. Perhaps doing that confused the USTA's year-end calculations in some way and they just gave up and said "leave him at his level".
 

McLovin

Legend
Now, he did play a few matches in another section. Perhaps doing that confused the USTA's year-end calculations in some way and they just gave up and said "leave him at his level".
Maybe, but I'd think going 5-0 at Nationals, in singles, not even close to losing a set, and beating an eventual 5.0 bump-up would flag him regardless. Just strange.

I only bring this up because I was texting my friend last night about his 5.0 bump (he was also on the team that won Nationals), and he was confused why this guy didn't get it as well.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Maybe, but I'd think going 5-0 at Nationals, in singles, not even close to losing a set, and beating an eventual 5.0 bump-up would flag him regardless. Just strange.

I only bring this up because I was texting my friend last night about his 5.0 bump (he was also on the team that won Nationals), and he was confused why this guy didn't get it as well.
Oh, I agree with you. Just grasping at straws trying to explain how it happened.
 

Doan

Rookie
Are you talking about the guy that played Sectionals for 2 different Sections ? Didn't realize you could double-dip like that. Learn something new everyday.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Are you talking about the guy that played Sectionals for 2 different Sections ? Didn't realize you could double-dip like that. Learn something new everyday.
Yep, you can. Generally, you can play in multiple areas/districts/sections and qualify for playoffs on multiple teams. It is only when you are rostered on multiple teams at the same playoff event that you must choose which to play for.
 

Doan

Rookie
Yeah I've seen lots of people here in MidAtlantic do that with joining multiple DC,MD,VA teams. In fact our 3.5 DC team lost a few of our better players to the MD team at Sectionals. We had to scramble to just get 8, although it did mean there wasn't any drama about who was playing.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Yep, you can. Generally, you can play in multiple areas/districts/sections and qualify for playoffs on multiple teams. It is only when you are rostered on multiple teams at the same playoff event that you must choose which to play for.
Yeah I've seen lots of people here in MidAtlantic do that with joining multiple DC,MD,VA teams. In fact our 3.5 DC team lost a few of our better players to the MD team at Sectionals. We had to scramble to just get 8, although it did mean there wasn't any drama about who was playing.
We have a new rule that two teams that share 7+ players on their roster cannot participate in any regional or sectional.

J
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
We have a new rule that two teams that share 7+ players on their roster cannot participate in any regional or sectional.

J
I think NorCal may have introduced some new rules limiting team crossover as well this year. But these are all rules within a single section. Cross section it would have to be a national rule and I'm not aware of any.
 

trey.luby

New User
Southern is making a concerted effort to provide playing opportunities to some of the more higher-rated players...4.5's to some degree but really 5.0's and up...and in order to do this, they needed to move the bell-curve distribution further to the right so they could 'create' more players at higher levels to help move things in the right way and populate a base from which more teams can be formed. They seem to have taken the top players at the 4.0 levels and moved them....for example, the top 3 teams in 40 and Over 4.0 State in Louisiana from this past year all had more than 60% of their players promoted to the next level. In New Orleans, 4.5's were bumped to 5.0 just by playing 5.0 as long as they played three matches (one guy...a 4.5...lost every match to a 5.0 by a score of 0&1 and was still promoted, given credence to an above theory that just by playing up, people were moved.)
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
In New Orleans, 4.5's were bumped to 5.0 just by playing 5.0 as long as they played three matches (one guy...a 4.5...lost every match to a 5.0 by a score of 0&1 and was still promoted, given credence to an above theory that just by playing up, people were moved.)
Ahh... that makes a lot of sense and explains many things around here as well.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Southern is making a concerted effort to provide playing opportunities to some of the more higher-rated players...4.5's to some degree but really 5.0's and up...and in order to do this, they needed to move the bell-curve distribution further to the right so they could 'create' more players at higher levels to help move things in the right way and populate a base from which more teams can be formed. They seem to have taken the top players at the 4.0 levels and moved them....for example, the top 3 teams in 40 and Over 4.0 State in Louisiana from this past year all had more than 60% of their players promoted to the next level. In New Orleans, 4.5's were bumped to 5.0 just by playing 5.0 as long as they played three matches (one guy...a 4.5...lost every match to a 5.0 by a score of 0&1 and was still promoted, given credence to an above theory that just by playing up, people were moved.)
We had a 4.5 go undefeated in 5.0 local league and remain 4.5, and a 5.0 win 11 games total in 4 matches and stay a 5.0.

J
 

McLovin

Legend
We had a 4.5 go undefeated in 5.0 local league and remain 4.5, and a 5.0 win 11 games total in 4 matches and stay a 5.0.

J
Not saying this is the case, but I was aware of a guy in our section who was a "5.0" (<- quotes intended), and would lose every match he played (my one year as a 5.0, I beat him). At the end of the year he'd get bumped down to 4.5...and he'd appeal back up to 5.0.

He just liked saying "I'm a 5.0".
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Not saying this is the case, but I was aware of a guy in our section who was a "5.0" (<- quotes intended), and would lose every match he played (my one year as a 5.0, I beat him). At the end of the year he'd get bumped down to 4.5...and he'd appeal back up to 5.0.

He just liked saying "I'm a 5.0".
Women do that all the time. And teaching pros who like to hear themselves talk.

J
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Have heard of a number of appeals granted in southern. Some are saying that the only bumps that stick were the guys who would be bumped anyway in a normal year.
 

brettatk

Semi-Pro
Have heard of a number of appeals granted in southern. Some are saying that the only bumps that stick were the guys who would be bumped anyway in a normal year.
That's not what I'm seeing here in GA, at least for 4.0. Out of 150 bump ups only 10 appeals have been granted so far. Of course I can't tell how many people have tried to appeal. There could be some hiding under a rock that have not tried yet.
 

trey.luby

New User
Have heard of a number of appeals granted in southern. Some are saying that the only bumps that stick were the guys who would be bumped anyway in a normal year.
I have seen a mixed bag....the two 4.5's who played up at 5.0 but lost miserably both appealed and was granted....one of my 5.0's who was promoted to 5.5 behind some questionable results had his granted while one of my 5.0's promoted to 5.5 was denied (likely because he was a 5.5 two years ago)...two of the 4.0's who were bumped to 4.5 (but never played up) had their appeals denied....there does seem to be a certain method to the madness.
 

brettatk

Semi-Pro
That's not what I'm seeing here in GA, at least for 4.0. Out of 150 bump ups only 10 appeals have been granted so far. Of course I can't tell how many people have tried to appeal. There could be some hiding under a rock that have not tried yet.
I looked at my 2018 numbers. Last year 53 guys were bumped up from 4.0 to 4.5 with 16 appeals granted. So roughly 30% of appeals were granted. This year 150 guys and only 10 appeals granted (so far) which is only 6%. I'm guessing 90% or more of the people that were bumped here are not going to be able to appeal down.

My 4.5 numbers show 344 total 4.5 players. 52 of those were bumped up to 5.0 so 15%. Only 5 appeals have been granted so far so that would be 9% of appeals granted. I don't have 4.5 numbers from last year to compare.
 
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schmke

Hall of Fame
@schmke is putting out bump breakdowns by level http://computerratings.blogspot.com/ I can't wait for 4.0 and 4.5! My question for him, though, is whether these bump percentages include people who successfully appeal their rating?
4.0 coming later today.

I am looking at players with a 2018 year-end rating that got a 2019 year-end 'C' and not factoring in if they appealed or not. So if Bob was a 4.0 for 2018 and was bumped up to 4.5 but appealed down, he still counts as a bump up for this analysis.
 
Have heard of a number of appeals granted in southern. Some are saying that the only bumps that stick were the guys who would be bumped anyway in a normal year.
0 appeals granted for recent bumps to 5.0 (men) in my area of Southern. I haven't checked with every single one personally but listening to the grapevine, sounds like everyone tried.
 

Vox Rationis

Semi-Pro
Have heard of a number of appeals granted in southern. Some are saying that the only bumps that stick were the guys who would be bumped anyway in a normal year.
There's been one successful appeal between 4.0, 4.5, and 5.0 around here. I think the ones getting let back down were likely well under the threshold before adjustment.
 
Southern is making a concerted effort to provide playing opportunities to some of the more higher-rated players...4.5's to some degree but really 5.0's and up...and in order to do this, they needed to move the bell-curve distribution further to the right so they could 'create' more players at higher levels to help move things in the right way and populate a base from which more teams can be formed. They seem to have taken the top players at the 4.0 levels and moved them....for example, the top 3 teams in 40 and Over 4.0 State in Louisiana from this past year all had more than 60% of their players promoted to the next level. In New Orleans, 4.5's were bumped to 5.0 just by playing 5.0 as long as they played three matches (one guy...a 4.5...lost every match to a 5.0 by a score of 0&1 and was still promoted, given credence to an above theory that just by playing up, people were moved.)
locally we now have 28 5.0 players. Last year we had 9. An increase of 68% new 5.0 players.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
We have a new rule that two teams that share 7+ players on their roster cannot participate in any regional or sectional.

J
In MS, it's 4. No two teams in different districts in MS can have more than 4 shared players.

I think NorCal may have introduced some new rules limiting team crossover as well this year. But these are all rules within a single section. Cross section it would have to be a national rule and I'm not aware of any.
There is none. MS NJ district is also within driving distance to Eastern NJ Region, so a friend of mine used to get an all-star team of MS NJ/Philly/DE players, since the shared player rules no longer applied, and just kick ass in an Eastern NJ league. Eastern put an end to that by passing a regulation that 2/3 of any roster had to live in the region where they played. LOL. That was like 10 years ago. Not sure if it still applies. Eastern-based teams still play in MS NJ leagues, although not to dominate like that, but just because the MS NJ leagues are much better than the Eastern NJ leagues (which are typically 2 or maybe 3 teams).
 

ace18

Professional
I looked at my 2018 numbers. Last year 53 guys were bumped up from 4.0 to 4.5 with 16 appeals granted. So roughly 30% of appeals were granted. This year 150 guys and only 10 appeals granted (so far) which is only 6%. I'm guessing 90% or more of the people that were bumped here are not going to be able to appeal down.

My 4.5 numbers show 344 total 4.5 players. 52 of those were bumped up to 5.0 so 15%. Only 5 appeals have been granted so far so that would be 9% of appeals granted. I don't have 4.5 numbers from last year to compare.
Where are you looking to see that they've won an appeal?
 

Rusbus

New User
It seems singles players where almost left alone entirely from the bump cycle. In the PACNW, it looks like mostly doubles players moved around. Maybe USTA felt they wanted to keeps singles players at level and move the better doubles players up .

I looked through our sections and all of the yea he should move up doubles players did but none of the singles players.

Just my view into it.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
In MS, it's 4. No two teams in different districts in MS can have more than 4 shared players.


There is none. MS NJ district is also within driving distance to Eastern NJ Region, so a friend of mine used to get an all-star team of MS NJ/Philly/DE players, since the shared player rules no longer applied, and just kick ass in an Eastern NJ league. Eastern put an end to that by passing a regulation that 2/3 of any roster had to live in the region where they played. LOL. That was like 10 years ago. Not sure if it still applies. Eastern-based teams still play in MS NJ leagues, although not to dominate like that, but just because the MS NJ leagues are much better than the Eastern NJ leagues (which are typically 2 or maybe 3 teams).
If you live in NYC you can play Eastern, MS, and NE!

J
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Analysis of the bumps up/down for 4.0 men and women by section posted. Charts below, but see more discussion on my blog (I can't post link, others can if they desire).

Trend for Southern and Texas men continues. A lot of 4.0 women bumped down, 12 of 17 sections had more down than up.



 
So you have enough for 3 teams in a flight and can have a 5.0+ flight in your 18+ local league? Will folks join and play or protest and complain that they were bumped up?
i dont see them complaining but i dont see them forming a 5.0 18+ league either. Some of them were high school hired-hand mercenaries anyways. Other recent 5.0s are 40+ and will just play the 4.5+ 40&Over league now. Those <40 are SOL.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
i dont see them complaining but i dont see them forming a 5.0 18+ league either. Some of them were high school hired-hand mercenaries anyways. Other recent 5.0s are 40+ and will just play the 4.5+ 40&Over league now. Those <40 are SOL.
There are enough 40+ 4.5+ teams to take on all the 5.0s? Especially considering just one gets to play each match with the new 4-court format? Or is your area sticking with the 5-court format?
 
There are enough 40+ 4.5+ teams to take on all the 5.0s? Especially considering just one gets to play each match with the new 4-court format? Or is your area sticking with the 5-court format?
We play the 5 court format for 4.5+. There are as many 40&Over 4.5+ teams as there are 18&Over 4.5 teams locally. The distribution of our new 5.0s came out to be 1/3 high school mercenaries, 1/3 40+, & 1/3 SOL. So that league is just taking on a handful who will now play up a line.
 

TennisOTM

New User
Based on this thread it seems like everyone bumped is trying to appeal. Am I the only one having a bit of a moral dilemma in deciding whether to hit the appeal link? I was surprised to get bumped to 4.0 (based on being 3.3 on tennisrecord) and I'm curious if I'm in the auto-appeal range. However, I'm not injured (yet) and I'm planning/hoping to continue improving this year, and it seems the spirit of the rules say that I shouldn't appeal in that case. On the other hand, I like my 3.5 teammates and we were a match tiebreak away from making it to Sectionals this year. What do people think?
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Based on this thread it seems like everyone bumped is trying to appeal. Am I the only one having a bit of a moral dilemma in deciding whether to hit the appeal link? I was surprised to get bumped to 4.0 (based on being 3.3 on tennisrecord) and I'm curious if I'm in the auto-appeal range. However, I'm not injured (yet) and I'm planning/hoping to continue improving this year, and it seems the spirit of the rules say that I shouldn't appeal in that case. On the other hand, I like my 3.5 teammates and we were a match tiebreak away from making it to Sectionals this year. What do people think?
The appeal range is essentially the statistical margin of error. So if you are able to appeal, you are within the margin of error and it’s not really cheating. This is the USTA admitting they could have been wrong.
 

BallBag

Semi-Pro
Based on this thread it seems like everyone bumped is trying to appeal. Am I the only one having a bit of a moral dilemma in deciding whether to hit the appeal link? I was surprised to get bumped to 4.0 (based on being 3.3 on tennisrecord) and I'm curious if I'm in the auto-appeal range. However, I'm not injured (yet) and I'm planning/hoping to continue improving this year, and it seems the spirit of the rules say that I shouldn't appeal in that case. On the other hand, I like my 3.5 teammates and we were a match tiebreak away from making it to Sectionals this year. What do people think?
The appeal range is essentially the statistical margin of error. So if you are able to appeal, you are within the margin of error and it’s not really cheating. This is the USTA admitting they could have been wrong.
But you still essentially become a self rate and become subject to the 3 strikes.
 

Rusbus

New User
Based on this thread it seems like everyone bumped is trying to appeal. Am I the only one having a bit of a moral dilemma in deciding whether to hit the appeal link? I was surprised to get bumped to 4.0 (based on being 3.3 on tennisrecord) and I'm curious if I'm in the auto-appeal range. However, I'm not injured (yet) and I'm planning/hoping to continue improving this year, and it seems the spirit of the rules say that I shouldn't appeal in that case. On the other hand, I like my 3.5 teammates and we were a match tiebreak away from making it to Sectionals this year. What do people think?
Do whatever you want....Moral dilemma is for things in life that actually matter. If it lets you appeal play...If not play 4.0. What is so hard about that?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Based on this thread it seems like everyone bumped is trying to appeal. Am I the only one having a bit of a moral dilemma in deciding whether to hit the appeal link? I was surprised to get bumped to 4.0 (based on being 3.3 on tennisrecord) and I'm curious if I'm in the auto-appeal range. However, I'm not injured (yet) and I'm planning/hoping to continue improving this year, and it seems the spirit of the rules say that I shouldn't appeal in that case. On the other hand, I like my 3.5 teammates and we were a match tiebreak away from making it to Sectionals this year. What do people think?
Appeals are for people who plan on getting worse.

J
 
This seems like a good place to post my most controversial topic, although only offensive to a few people who aren't in Texas or Cali....different areas having different ratings, namely Cali/Texas, Atlanta, maybe Florida are .5 higher in skill level than most of the country. So, I travel between Dallas and Memphis now for work, and was looking for a good drill to play at in Memphis. Called a couple country clubs, gave my background, unprovoked both club pros said you're going to be a high 4.5 in Memphis if you are a 4.0 in Dallas TX. Oh, and yes, Jolly is right about appeal if you plan to get worse, or just stay stagnant, no harm though if you're trying to play with your buds next season and you are bumped out of their team.
 

denoted

Rookie
This seems like a good place to post my most controversial topic, although only offensive to a few people who aren't in Texas or Cali....different areas having different ratings, namely Cali/Texas, Atlanta, maybe Florida are .5 higher in skill level than most of the country. So, I travel between Dallas and Memphis now for work, and was looking for a good drill to play at in Memphis. Called a couple country clubs, gave my background, unprovoked both club pros said you're going to be a high 4.5 in Memphis if you are a 4.0 in Dallas TX. Oh, and yes, Jolly is right about appeal if you plan to get worse, or just stay stagnant, no harm though if you're trying to play with your buds next season and you are bumped out of their team.
Do national results support this? I have my doubts. The most populous areas should have the best players at level, but climate also matters.
 

TennisOTM

New User
Do whatever you want....Moral dilemma is for things in life that actually matter. If it lets you appeal play...If not play 4.0. What is so hard about that?
Yeah maybe "moral" was too strong. True it's not hard to just let the appeal click decide for me, but if it goes through I'd be stuck with that "A" label that would feel lame to me without a legit reason like an injury, especially because none of my fellow 3.5-to-4.0 bumps in my leagues have done it (no idea if they've tried). In fact the only appeal I see is a 3.5 who beat me twice and somehow wasn't bumped and he successfully appealed up to 4.0, which to me is a badass choice. So I don't think I'm going to hit appeal, but it's taking willpower to resist the curiosity click.
 
I'm not sure, I bet someone on here has the knowledge to say yes or no. I've posted often about the "gaming the system" that happens in Texas, but if other states do that too, nationals might just be a different story and the .5 difference applies more to the masses and not the tanking superteams.
 
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