Bungalo Bill Help - laid back wrist

Mattle

Rookie
First of all; I've read a lot of posts from you and they've helped so much, so i truely respect you and all others here trying to help.

Now, it's both the forehand and backhand ( one handed)
Laid back wrist is a good thing, makes it stabilize, but isn't destroying possible angles? I shouldn't use a laid back wrist when crossing etc?

Well, I can't, and still ( as BB said) my arm turnes robotic when i want to cross without the laid back wrist

So I know there has to happen something in the takeback and forward swing, with the wrist, but what!?

Thanks :)
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
Mattle said:
First of all; I've read a lot of posts from you and they've helped so much, so i truely respect you and all others here trying to help.

Now, it's both the forehand and backhand ( one handed)
Laid back wrist is a good thing, makes it stabilize, but isn't destroying possible angles? I shouldn't use a laid back wrist when crossing etc?

Well, I can't, and still ( as BB said) my arm turnes robotic when i want to cross without the laid back wrist

So I know there has to happen something in the takeback and forward swing, with the wrist, but what!?

Thanks :)

Mattle,

On the forehand, simply relax your wrist and let natural motion dictate the range of motion and flexibility you will have. Everyone is made up differently so a lot of this is genetic in nature.

The point is, if you relax your wrist and concentrate on bringing the arm forward with a bend in the elbow, the shear weight of the racquet and the sudden change in direction forward will cause the wrist to lay back. That is what you want and you are probably doing it already.

For the backhand, I dont not recommend a loose wrist like the forehand. You need some firmness and a fixed position for control and timing.
 

AngeloDS

Hall of Fame
There's a few things when using a laid back wrist. Don't force it for one, second don't roll your wrist too early that will not help tennis elbow and may even cause it and finally throw your butt cap at the ball; you want to swing across your body.

What's really important is being relaxed and not forcing it. Your arm is just a bunch of hinges when you use this technique. And you need to use upper body rotation and your legs. It's a huge chain reaction starting with the legs.

I use a stable wrist on the one handed backhand but my coach uses a floppy wrist. I'm not a fan of the floppy wrist for backhands -- it's pretty hard on the forearm muscles atleast for me it is.
 

vin

Professional
AngeloDS said:
Don't force it for one

Adding to this, it can also be bad to lay the wrist back too much. Lansdorp refers to this as "slapping" and says it will lead to inconsistent results, which is exactly what I experienced from doing it. I would actively pull the wrist back as far as possible near the beginning of the forward swing, and while I would sometimes get good results from it, I don't think it's a good thing to do and it encourages you to use some wrist in your swing. I'm hitting better now keeping the wrist fixed at a less severe position, but still relaxed.
 

paulfreda

Hall of Fame
First of all you can use a laid back wrist for crosscourt. You just re position your body to the new target. Yes, this gives you away but this will work sometimes.

I think you have a case of "too much of one piece of advice". Laid back wrist.

There are many different shots/ways to hit the ball for the forehand alone.
For example, releasing the wrist and/or hitting early on the outer side of the ball (easiest for the FH). Another method for a passing shot ccourt is to use a nice windshield wiper motion. The topspin dips to the net man's feet and this swing can be hit without much pace so it will be short. For a backcourt ralley you can simply drive it a bit more and hit higher over the net to get it deep.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
vin said:
Adding to this, it can also be bad to lay the wrist back too much. Lansdorp refers to this as "slapping" and says it will lead to inconsistent results, which is exactly what I experienced from doing it.

I dont know if this is what Lansdorp really meant. Where did you read this? Federer uses an extremely loose wrist and uses motion to hold the wrist in a fixed position prior to contact.
 

vin

Professional
Bungalo Bill said:
I dont know if this is what Lansdorp really meant. Where did you read this? Federer uses an extremely loose wrist and uses motion to hold the wrist in a fixed position prior to contact.

I think we're saying the same thing, but the article is "The Lansdorp Forehand" on John's site.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
vin said:
I think we're saying the same thing, but the article is "The Lansdorp Forehand" on John's site.

Okay, I will check it out when I get some time. By the way, John introduced me to Landsdorp a year ago at Indian Wells. The guy is quite a unique man. :)
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
vin said:
I think we're saying the same thing, but the article is "The Lansdorp Forehand" on John's site.

I think what he is getting at is you simply dont want to "toss" or "throw" your hand at the ball. This would create a "slapping" feel. Moving through the ball with shoulder rotation and the forward movement of the elbow is what he is getting at. Is this what you see?
 

vin

Professional
Hey BB,

Did you catch the section titled "Wrist" towards the end of the second page? I'd put some quotes from the article here, but that may not be appropriate. Robert specifically addresses laying back the wrist too much and directly associates it with "slapping".

If you lay back your wrist as far as it will go, or too much, you will need to push your wrist forward during the swing (or over rotate) to prevent the racket head from ending up behind the hand at contact. But that's a backwards way of explaining it since this extreme wrist position is likely an intentional wind up for a wrist snap ... or slap.

I have followed your posts on wrist release and I think this is different by being more pronounced. I think the "BB Wrist Release" is more about letting the momentum of the swing push the wrist forward through relaxation rather than the actual contraction of a "slap".

Robert claims that some coaches actually promote the "slapping", and I figure it's because it adds more power if timed correctly, but man does it make timing more complicated!

So, my point was to support and elaborate on "not forcing it". You don't want your wrist to be so loose that it's floppy, and you don't want to actively pull it back or keep it tight either. Get it in a comfortable laid back position like what you see in the backswing of most male pros and let it stay that way. Sure, the acceleration of the swing will push it back a bit further, but not as far back as the "slap wind up". This, at least, is what has worked best in my experience and I unfortunately have at least a few years of experience in "slapping".

Does that make more sense?

It must have been fun meeting Robert! I had the chance to meet him at the US Open ... I was sitting only a few seats away from him. I didn't have anything significant to say, so I figured I'd leave him alone. Same with Bollettieri actually. Some guy was pestering him (Nick) about how to hit a slice serve or something like that. It was sort of funny.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
vin said:
Hey BB,

Did you catch the section titled "Wrist" towards the end of the second page? I'd put some quotes from the article here, but that may not be appropriate. Robert specifically addresses laying back the wrist too much and directly associates it with "slapping".

Okay, but right now I am in the middle of our move to Idaho in two weeks, I will try to get to it.

If you lay back your wrist as far as it will go, or too much, you will need to push your wrist forward during the swing (or over rotate) to prevent the racket head from ending up behind the hand at contact. But that's a backwards way of explaining it since this extreme wrist position is likely an intentional wind up for a wrist snap ... or slap.

Yeah, boy, if he is saying this, I would have to disagree with him. I can understand if someone is mainly swinging from the elbow with a loose wrist and is sort of slapping the ball to get it to go. But I disagree with him that allowing the wrist to go back as far as it can leads to "pushing" your wrist forward or slapping the ball.

Looking at Federer, he has extreme wrist layback, but because he moves his arm from the shoulder/torso/legs with his rotation, tremendous forces are playing on that loose wrist of his which greatly accelerates the racquet right before contact. It is like one big rubber band being stretched.

I have followed your posts on wrist release and I think this is different by being more pronounced. I think the "BB Wrist Release" is more about letting the momentum of the swing push the wrist forward through relaxation rather than the actual contraction of a "slap".

I appreciate you coining it the "BB Wrist Release". But that would not be true. Mahboob was the one that brought this term too us from a tennis conference he attended. All I did was reviewed film and tried to understand it myself.

The educated wrist is relaxed through the entire motion. It is not laid back on the backswing like yesteryear. It lays back when the racquet is thrusted forward. Becuase the racquet is accelerating faster then the elasticity in the wrist can respond to, it stays layed back until the arm slows down which causes the hand/racquet to accelerate through the ball using the wrist as a well oiled hinge. Again, this happens with your head when you step on the gas in a very fast car.

Robert claims that some coaches actually promote the "slapping", and I figure it's because it adds more power if timed correctly, but man does it make timing more complicated!

This I can believe. Just because the wrist is loose, it does not mean you cant feel it or that there is no pressure on the grip. I think the slapping comes from a combination of too loose of a grip with a loose wrist. I know I wouldn't attempt doing it, I am perfectly happy with my forehand. I just need to get my butt out there and get in shape.

So, my point was to support and elaborate on "not forcing it". You don't want your wrist to be so loose that it's floppy, and you don't want to actively pull it back or keep it tight either. Get it in a comfortable laid back position like what you see in the backswing of most male pros and let it stay that way. Sure, the acceleration of the swing will push it back a bit further, but not as far back as the "slap wind up". This, at least, is what has worked best in my experience and I unfortunately have at least a few years of experience in "slapping".

Yeah, you got it. Just relax it and you are fine. You dont need to think about it once you have a comfortable grip on the handle and keep elasticity in the wrist. If you are rleaxed in that area, move on into concentrating on making clean contact with the ball. Your loose wrist lesson is over. Plus, chances are if we filmed your wrist on a forehand, I bet it would look like what the pros are doing.

Does that make more sense?

I will read the article, but you made perfect sense.

It must have been fun meeting Robert! I had the chance to meet him at the US Open ... I was sitting only a few seats away from him. I didn't have anything significant to say, so I figured I'd leave him alone. Same with Bollettieri actually. Some guy was pestering him (Nick) about how to hit a slice serve or something like that. It was sort of funny.

LOL, Nick must of loved that. Robert is a kick. I didnt say much to him as I have no history with him. But John was talking away! lol Like old war buddies. :)
 

vin

Professional
Thanks for your input BB.

The "as far as it will go" thing was not from the article, but I think it ties into the "slapping" because if you do slap, I bet it's likely that you'll actively pull the wrist back farther than necessary (force it) as a wind up rather than letting the natural effect that you described happen. I was doing it myself until I read Robert's article.
 
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