Calling an end to all surface related complaints

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nikdom

Guest
Can we all stop whining about a surface because it does not suit one player or another?

Its one thing to say the tour needs a balance of clay and fast surfaces or more grass tournaments, but every time a tournament starts and player X loses, then his/her fans start this whole "oh they changed the speed" BS.

Its getting ridiculous. Folks complaining indoor hard courts play like clay and I swear I remember someone complained that they sped up the French open clay to play like hard courts so Nadal would lose. Active imaginations aside, clay is clay and hard courts are hard courts. Unless they replace it with beach sand, I'm sorry to say, the surfaces behave pretty much as they should.

At the end of the day, slower or faster, high-bouncing or low-bouncing, its the same court for both players. We need to stop whining and accept the outcomes based on how a player dealt with the situation - surface, wind/rain, crowd noise, injuries, bad calls, family problems etc.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
I generally agree with you, as I get sick of the surface discussions, but calling an end to a particular subject on a passionate, open tennis forum is sort of in vain, right?

TW exists for fans to share their knowledge, discuss their passion, expound on their theories, share their excitement, and, also, whine about whatever tennis-related subject they wish.

Telling TWers to "stop" in regards to something I particulary am not interested in or sick of kind of defeats the whole purpose of the forum.
 
N

nikdom

Guest
I generally agree with you, as I get sick of the surface discussions, but calling an end to a particular subject on a passionate, open tennis forum is sort of in vain, right?

TW exists for fans to share their knowledge, discuss their passion, expound on their theories, share their excitement, and, also, whine about whatever tennis-related subject they wish.

Telling TWers to "stop" in regards to something I particulary am not interested in or sick of kind of defeats the whole purpose of the forum.

Tell that to the folks who won't tolerate any discussion on doping without "proof".
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Tell that to the folks who won't tolerate any discussion on doping without "proof".

That's my point. Some won't tolerate it, yet the doping threads continue, because there is an interest among some people in discussing that topic.

Like I said, I agree with you. I'd be happy to never pass by another surface-whining thread. But, I just don't think it's realistic to expect it.
 
N

nikdom

Guest
That's my point. Some won't tolerate it, yet the doping threads continue, because there is an interest among some people in discussing that topic.

Like I said, I agree with you. I'd be happy to never pass by another surface-whining thread. But, I just don't think it's realistic to expect it.

Fair enough.
 
M

monfed

Guest
Sure, when they stop slowing down EVERY surface. Heck even Bercy was slowed down, last year it was lightning quick and highly entertaining. It's getting beyond pathetic imo.
 
N

nikdom

Guest
Sure, when they stop slowing down EVERY surface. Heck even Bercy was slowed down, last year it was lightning quick and highly entertaining. It's getting beyond pathetic imo.

Nadal and co argue that the long season takes a toll on their bodies. I say if there were more faster courts and fewer grinding rallies, then it wouldn't be as hard on a player's body.

But then Nadal plays exactly that way doesn't he? Can't have it both ways.
 
M

monfed

Guest
Nadal and co argue that the long season takes a toll on their bodies. I say if there were more faster courts and fewer grinding rallies, then it wouldn't be as hard on a player's body.

True and it also lends more variety to the game which is great to watch. Wasn't it enjoyable to watch Llodra's surge to the semis and he almost won it. We can have more players like Llodra winning masters/slams if courts even played the way they're supposed to.

If you can't speed them up ,atleast dont slow them down further. ATP is corrupted by money , money ruins everything. :(

But then Nadal plays exactly that way doesn't he? Can't have it both ways.

Yes but if the surfaces played faster, like Rebound ace at AO(switched to plexicushion in 08) and if USO wasnt slowed down, he'd have 0 HC slams. You only have to look at his indoor career.

Just to make things clear, Nadal isnt even the reason why I want courts to be sped up, just wanna see more variety. Anyway Nadal should never have been more than a claycourt beast. Throw him in the 90s and he'd have 0 non-clay slams.
 

Netzroller

Semi-Pro
TW exists for fans to share their knowledge, discuss their passion, expound on their theories, share their excitement, and, also, whine about whatever tennis-related subject they wish.

I wish more people here would see it like this...:roll:


As for the question. I don't think we should call an end to the discussion since surface is a very significant aspect of tennis and changes thereof have significant influence on the game.

What I don't like is that most people are unable to adress the topic without using it bash some player and belittle their achievements.
 
N

nikdom

Guest
Nadal and co argue that the long season takes a toll on their bodies. I say if there were more faster courts and fewer grinding rallies, then it wouldn't be as hard on a player's body.

True and it also lends more variety to the game which is great to watch. Wasn't it enjoyable to watch Llodra's surge to the semis and he almost won it. We can have more players like Llodra winning masters/slams if courts even played the way they're supposed to.

If you can't speed them up ,atleast dont slow them down further. ATP is corrupted by money , money ruins everything. :(



Yes but if the surfaces played faster, like Rebound ace at AO(switched to plexicushion in 08) and if USO wasnt slowed down, he'd have 0 HC slams. You only have to look at his indoor career.

Just to make things clear, Nadal isnt even the reason why I want courts to be sped up, just wanna see more variety. Anyway Nadal should never have been more than a claycourt beast. Throw him in the 90s and he'd have 0 non-clay slams.

I'm not arguing for faster courts so Nadal would have fewer titles. Just saying that every surface should be allowed fair representation for variety in the game.

That said, its up to individual tournaments to tweak their surfaces. If Bercy decided to slow things down a little, then there should be some indoor tournament that is indeed fasr. WTF seems like it is fast. So I'm not sure what some folks are complaining about.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Can we all stop whining about a surface because it does not suit one player or another?

Its one thing to say the tour needs a balance of clay and fast surfaces or more grass tournaments, but every time a tournament starts and player X loses, then his/her fans start this whole "oh they changed the speed" BS.

Its getting ridiculous. Folks complaining indoor hard courts play like clay and I swear I remember someone complained that they sped up the French open clay to play like hard courts so Nadal would lose. Active imaginations aside, clay is clay and hard courts are hard courts. Unless they replace it with beach sand, I'm sorry to say, the surfaces behave pretty much as they should.

At the end of the day, slower or faster, high-bouncing or low-bouncing, its the same court for both players. We need to stop whining and accept the outcomes based on how a player dealt with the situation - surface, wind/rain, crowd noise, injuries, bad calls, family problems etc.



Getting? Hell this has been going on since Nadal started dominating Federer. Excuses will always be abound, and so will delusion.

Everyone wants to make believe that Roger played on faster courts, but he didn't. Everyone wants to make believe that there is too much clay, however there are 2X the HC masters and 2X the HC slams.

That is who crazy these people are, in their minds it is only fair when Federer wins period.
 

timnz

Legend
Reality

There is a difference between making excuses and ignoring the facts. Its a fact that different surfaces suit some players games more than others. Its a fact the each player has their best surface and their worst surface.

I think this started because of debate around the nadal federer head to head. Federer fans werent denigrating nadals achievements by pointing out that most of their matches have been on clay. They were simply expressing the fact that assessing the players relative strengths by simply quoting the head to head statistic without reference to the surface played is an inaccurate thing to do. Everyone knows that if mcenroe had only ever played borg on clay then their head to head would be radcally different than what it is.....hence to quote head to head without reference to surface is just plain misleading.

Now clay is just as valid a surface as hard court. But that isnt the issue, the need to understand the importance of surface in head to head statistics is
 

CDestroyer

Professional
Well warranted thread

Can we all stop whining about a surface because it does not suit one player or another?

Its one thing to say the tour needs a balance of clay and fast surfaces or more grass tournaments, but every time a tournament starts and player X loses, then his/her fans start this whole "oh they changed the speed" BS.

Its getting ridiculous. Folks complaining indoor hard courts play like clay and I swear I remember someone complained that they sped up the French open clay to play like hard courts so Nadal would lose. Active imaginations aside, clay is clay and hard courts are hard courts. Unless they replace it with beach sand, I'm sorry to say, the surfaces behave pretty much as they should.

At the end of the day, slower or faster, high-bouncing or low-bouncing, its the same court for both players. We need to stop whining and accept the outcomes based on how a player dealt with the situation - surface, wind/rain, crowd noise, injuries, bad calls, family problems etc.

Good call bro. Just accept the conditions and surfaces like the players do.
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
There has been a homogenization of court speeds. Generally, they've all gotten slower. Yes, hard courts are still hard courts and grass is still grass, but they can be changed drastically. Putting more sand in the court paint for hard courts makes them much slower and they take spin much better.

I think most people think it's a shame to slow them down because it makes the game predictable. Winning a CY grand slam wouldn't be nearly as impressive now as it would have been when the surfaces were wildly different. Just less drama with changing court speeds.

I know you said talking about court surfaces in a general sense was different, and you just didn't like it being used as an excuse for individual players. I've never really heard complaints about surfaces being sped up, though.
 

timnz

Legend
Yes but

Accept the surface..... but don't make comments on players relative strengths without reference to the surface. Federer's match against Nadal last night establishes that point very strongly.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
Accept the surface..... but don't make comments on players relative strengths without reference to the surface. Federer's match against Nadal last night establishes that point very strongly.

As do all of the matches Federer and Nadal have played on clay. Take your own advice, accept the surface!
 

timnz

Legend
As do all of the matches Federer and Nadal have played on clay. Take your own advice, accept the surface!

i do and from this i conclude that Nadal is a better player than Federer on clay. Nothing more, however, can be concluded from their clay head to head. unfortunately though the majority of times they have played have been on clay, and some people wrongly conclude from that that nadal is a better player full stop.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
i do and from this i conclude that Nadal is a better player than Federer on clay. Nothing more, however, can be concluded from their clay head to head. unfortunately though the majority of times they have played have been on clay, and some people wrongly conclude from that that nadal is a better player full stop.

Oh, ok cool. :)
 

Rjtennis

Hall of Fame
Can we all stop whining about a surface because it does not suit one player or another?

Its one thing to say the tour needs a balance of clay and fast surfaces or more grass tournaments, but every time a tournament starts and player X loses, then his/her fans start this whole "oh they changed the speed" BS.

Its getting ridiculous. Folks complaining indoor hard courts play like clay and I swear I remember someone complained that they sped up the French open clay to play like hard courts so Nadal would lose. Active imaginations aside, clay is clay and hard courts are hard courts. Unless they replace it with beach sand, I'm sorry to say, the surfaces behave pretty much as they should.

At the end of the day, slower or faster, high-bouncing or low-bouncing, its the same court for both players. We need to stop whining and accept the outcomes based on how a player dealt with the situation - surface, wind/rain, crowd noise, injuries, bad calls, family problems etc.

I disagree. The HC surfaces have been slowed down to the point where it does not reward different styles of play. The slow surfaces make it near impossible to rush the net and that is a shame. I think it is fun to have some variety in the game.
 
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