I hurt my rear deltoid on my non-dominant side a few weeks ago (non tennis related injury) and as I was recovering, came back to the courts and in a clinic the instructor told me to just run around my backhand that day. I'm pretty speedy out there (something I specifically work on a lot) so it was kind of a fun challenge then I was watching some videos on techniques for inside-out forehand. This got me thinking: I play mostly singles and I'm just a regular person, but the pros do it; should I? Try to make this a staple of my game? My forehand is way better than my backhand any day not just while recovering from an injury. I need to work on the angles but I feel like this could be a thing. What do you guys think? Are there regular rec players out there in USTA who purposely play to never or rarely hit a backhand? IE Take all the work of trying to fix my ****ty backhand and instead channel it into developing a killer inside-out forehand?
Can a "regular" player cultivate an inside-out forehand?
- Thread starter DailyG&T
- Start date
I am a 3.5 level left-handed player with a one-handed back hand and I play almost exclusively doubles. I have a pretty strong topspin forehand, decent slice/chip forehand, strong backhand slice, but relatively weak topspin backhand (all of this is strong/weak relative to my level of play). So I don't run around my backhand per se - but when it's convenient, or when I have a reasonable choice how to hit the shot (such as a floating mid court sitter or a ball coming to me deep from CC in the deuce court without too much angle), I'll opt to take it with my forehand. In the past 6 or 8 months I've been hitting an inside-out forehand with quite good results - I never really worked specifically on it, it just kind of evolved when people would hit me CC shots that didn't have enough angle on them to my forehand in the deuce court. Now unless that CC shot comes with PLENTY of angle or so much pace that I have to hit a BH, I just take a simple step or two to my right and take it on my forehand. I am sure I completely telegraph it with the way I set up, but I also hit it quite hard, with a ton of spin and low over the net, so even if opponents get on their horse when they see me set up, it's still going to be a ball they have to work hard to get a handle on. Most of the time I hit it in response to a return of my own serve. I consider the inside out forehand to be just another option for me.
I do see lots of women in the 2.5 to even low 3.5 range switching hands to hit a "backhand" with their other hand as a forehand - but I've never seen this work out well. I'm also pretty sure there are men that do it, but I just haven't seen them. I couldn't imagine anyone recommending this approach though.
As for people who purposely play away from their backhand, sure there are tons of them out there, but if they really can't hit a backhand at all, it's a pretty glaring weakness. Have you looked into backhand slice? Perhaps that may be a bit gentler on your shoulder. Proper technique is important with that shot too, but better a shabby backhand slice than no backhand at all, no?
I do see lots of women in the 2.5 to even low 3.5 range switching hands to hit a "backhand" with their other hand as a forehand - but I've never seen this work out well. I'm also pretty sure there are men that do it, but I just haven't seen them. I couldn't imagine anyone recommending this approach though.
As for people who purposely play away from their backhand, sure there are tons of them out there, but if they really can't hit a backhand at all, it's a pretty glaring weakness. Have you looked into backhand slice? Perhaps that may be a bit gentler on your shoulder. Proper technique is important with that shot too, but better a shabby backhand slice than no backhand at all, no?
Thanks, guys! I am going to work on it and also my backhand - always my Achilles heel unfortunately:-( PS Cawlin I'm a lefty too! I am playing 3.5-4.0 level. I am LOLing at switching racquet hand -- meaning they are going ambidextrous!? Whoa! I am pretty strongly left handed though. I can't even imagine lol.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
If it suits your strengths, why not?
Also, if your backhand hasn’t been cutting it, it might be a good idea to take a new approach to the shot. Maybe try focusing on the slice as a consistent shot to neutralize your opponent’s ball and keep you in the point until you can run around and hit your forehand to take control?
Also, if your backhand hasn’t been cutting it, it might be a good idea to take a new approach to the shot. Maybe try focusing on the slice as a consistent shot to neutralize your opponent’s ball and keep you in the point until you can run around and hit your forehand to take control?
LEFTY POWAH!!! Use that on inside out forehand especially in the deuce court when someone comes CC to you from way out wide so that you don't have to run too far out of your way to hit it, and try to send it back on the same angle they sent it to you. It's also a nice adaptation for going DTL when you're in the ad court. See where you have issues, and maybe get a coach to take a look and see what you can work on to make it happen. Also, at 3.5 and 4.0, slice is totally viable and effective, I strongly urge you to learn some on your backhand - the nice thing about being a lefty is that the ball curves/cuts the opposite way from what most people are used to seeing, so it's just another advantage we have as leftys that is worth exploiting.
Yeah man, as for the hand switching, they literally put their racket in their other hand and swing a forehand from that side instead of a proper backhand. Here's a little anecdote about it: a woman on my mixed team switches hands all the time. She's reasonably quick on her feet, but slow on the read, so her "first step" is more like a 3rd step in terms of timing... anyway, last week were doing point play in practice and she and I were paired off on one side. The opponents realized quickly that they could hit to her backhand and she would switch hands and bomb the ball to the back fence, or directly into the net. I spoke to her as gently as I could and said "You know, if you've got any sort of backhand at all, now is the time to be workig on it... if you're not comfortable hitting it in live points, I'm happy to step over to the other court and feed you some backhands." She declined.
So a few points later after maybe her 15th or 20th "wrong side forehand" that she bombed long, I heard her lament to herself "every single time... ~sigh~". All I was thinking was "Yep, you're damn right, every.single.time." She is the worst "offender" that I have seen with this, but I have seen no less than 10 other women this mixed season (7 weeks) that switch hands at least now and then instead of hitting a backhand - all but one played at the lower lines, and the one at line 2 that I saw do it only did so once or twice at the net on quick reflex volleys.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Some day the reaper will come and you won't be able to run around that BH. Injuries and age come for us all. Having a reliable BH is a crucial stroke in making sure you can still cover the court and not get caught out protecting that weaker side.
My feeling in tennis is you should try to obtain reasonable competence in all strokes and then once you've done that start developing weapons.
My feeling in tennis is you should try to obtain reasonable competence in all strokes and then once you've done that start developing weapons.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
I am just a regular player and I LOVE my I-O forehand .... for me it is a power TS shot only ... I either crack it or it will miss. I cannot put slice on it. Use it equally in singles and doubles (right handed, I play Ad side in dubs), great for an approach shot as well.
Key for me on this shot is all footwork .... have to be positioned right and don't take it late ... nice and in front at contact.
That being said, I use it for offense .... I do not use it to hide a poor backhand.
If you are injured, fine, run around your backhand.
If you are well .... work on your backhand, can't keep hiding it. Having a solid BH is way more important than an I-O FH
Key for me on this shot is all footwork .... have to be positioned right and don't take it late ... nice and in front at contact.
That being said, I use it for offense .... I do not use it to hide a poor backhand.
If you are injured, fine, run around your backhand.
If you are well .... work on your backhand, can't keep hiding it. Having a solid BH is way more important than an I-O FH
So what do you consider the list of strokes? This is not me arguing, just looking for your opinion...
For me, I consider either effective slice or topspin on either wing to cover the BH/FH - if you can't hit a TS FH, if you can chip it and/or slice it effectively, that's good enough - same for BH. I used to do nothing but slice my BH, but I thought it made me look like a hack despite the fact that I could slice it low and driving, CC or DTL, or use it for sharp angles and drop shots, going pretty much wherever I wanted with it... so I decided that I needed to have a solid TS BH, but could not get the hang of a 2HBH, so took focused lessons on OHTSBH - it's now a decent shot that I'll hit if I get the perfect ball, but I still slice 80+% of my backhands and don't consider my BH to be any weaker than anyone else's "weak side" - i.e. it's not as strong as my FH, but I sure don't have to run around it and protect it either.
Meanwhile, TSFH was much more natural for me, and I still slice/chip the FH now and then, but that's more like 20% of the time slice/flat/chip vs. 80% of FH shots being TS.
Agreed totally with this... racket head speed is the key to the IO forehand for me too - and I absolutely cannot slice it reliably - and the only way to make it work is to set up the feet for it - which is why I say I telegraph mine... but at this level, knowing the train is coming won't help most people to not be late for it... so who cares if it's telegraphed?
Sure, it's nice to master top spin, slice, and many other things, but even some pros have issues with let's say ts backhand and mask it otherwise.
Other pros mastered the art of slice to a level where it is still a weapon even in today's world of top spin.
So, why wouldn't you use your slice if it is as you describe it?
Look how often Del Potro or Federer "slice to death" their opponents, meaning that they will slice from BH, till they can run around for a forehand, and then you can only pray that it's gonna be a mistake.
If they can do it, why would recreational players try to avoid it?
Unless you specifically want to learn & practice TS BH for whatever reason.
I totally agree - I guess I wasn't clear - when I said I thought I needed to have a TS BH, it was because I thought I looked like a hack because I didn't have it... and here's the part I should have been more clear about: I now believe that I was wrong, and set myself on a fool's errand, wasting a few months of instruction and effort on a shot I rarely hit while I have an alternative that is just as effective, if not moreso at my level and for any level of tennis I have a hope of reaching... The truth is that I don't/didn't look like a hack because I only sliced my backhand, I look like a hack I'm a 3.5 player, and whether or not I ever develop a powerful OHTSBH will not change how much of a hack I look or don't look like
I pretty much don't care if I look like a hack now, as long as I do well in my matches, and if that means I beat my opponents with a "death by a thousand slices" approach, then so be it.
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Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
I have seen lots of players who NEVER hit a backhand, and only slice and always try to go inside out FH. Myself included. Don't do it. I see it a lot at a recreational level and it's a massive weakness if you want to improve. Most players better than you will overload you, first attacking your backhand side, and when you start moving too much to your backhand side they will attack your forehand. So you will only play two shots in rallies: A slice or a running FH. That's not a good strategy to win. Practice inside out FH but at the same time IMPROVE your backhand. It has costed me lots of games.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Topspin and slice groundstrokes off each wing, volleys off each wing (drive and drop), lobs and overheads, first and second serves (flat, slice and topspin). They don't have to be world beaters but they have to be competent and not a liability.
Virtually every 4.5 player and above can do all these things quite well. I see very few high level players still masking a clear deficiency. They may have favorite shots but they can hit all the shots if necessary.
And again I don't think this is a necessity to compete but it makes tennis a lot easier than if you handicap yourself by not having a stroke in your bag.
For every attack there is a counter attack and the more you can bring to the table the more answers you have.
I think you've perhaps overstated one of these two posts...
Are you saying that reasonable competence is defined as 4.5 level and above?
I don't see the lack of a FH slice groundstroke as a "glaring hole" in anyone's game provided they hit a flat or TS forehand with reasonable competence.
I don't see the lack of 3 serves as a glaring hole in anyone's game below 4.5 or even 5.0 provided they have two serves (kick and slice, or flat and slice, or flat and kick) that are solid.
Not having a second serve at all is clearly a problem, as is not having a first serve (obv.) - but you can get all the way to 4.0 EASILY without more than a waiter's tray low flat serve with a max of 70 mph that you can place, and that only has to be in about 70% of the time, especially if your 60 mph low flat waiter's tray second serve is 90+% in... that makes for something like one or two DFs per 8 or so service games (maybe less, my math is kind off the cuff on that).
That's damn solid serving for rec level and that 60-70 mph waiter's tray serve can't just be outright attacked at that level, and if it can be attacked by your opponent, you move it to where it can't be - i.e to the BH or out wide or whatever. To get to 4.5, you'd better get some more pace or some movement, but... again, it's not a "glaring hole" in your sub 4.5 game to not have 3 solid serves... At those levels it is a glaring strength though to have solid serve weapons, but in your world, nobody would develop those serve weapons until they had every other shot "in their bag"... or do I misunderstand what you're saying?
Not having ANY stroke AT ALL on a particular wing is a glaring hole obviously, not being able to volley at all on a particular wing is a slightly less glaring hole (moreso in dubs), not being able to drop volley on your FH wing, is not a glaring hole... etc.
I'm having trouble reconciling this seemingly tall order of yours without a better understanding of what you mean by "reasonable competence", I guess.
Are you saying that reasonable competence is defined as 4.5 level and above?
I don't see the lack of a FH slice groundstroke as a "glaring hole" in anyone's game provided they hit a flat or TS forehand with reasonable competence.
I don't see the lack of 3 serves as a glaring hole in anyone's game below 4.5 or even 5.0 provided they have two serves (kick and slice, or flat and slice, or flat and kick) that are solid.
Not having a second serve at all is clearly a problem, as is not having a first serve (obv.) - but you can get all the way to 4.0 EASILY without more than a waiter's tray low flat serve with a max of 70 mph that you can place, and that only has to be in about 70% of the time, especially if your 60 mph low flat waiter's tray second serve is 90+% in... that makes for something like one or two DFs per 8 or so service games (maybe less, my math is kind off the cuff on that).
That's damn solid serving for rec level and that 60-70 mph waiter's tray serve can't just be outright attacked at that level, and if it can be attacked by your opponent, you move it to where it can't be - i.e to the BH or out wide or whatever. To get to 4.5, you'd better get some more pace or some movement, but... again, it's not a "glaring hole" in your sub 4.5 game to not have 3 solid serves... At those levels it is a glaring strength though to have solid serve weapons, but in your world, nobody would develop those serve weapons until they had every other shot "in their bag"... or do I misunderstand what you're saying?
Not having ANY stroke AT ALL on a particular wing is a glaring hole obviously, not being able to volley at all on a particular wing is a slightly less glaring hole (moreso in dubs), not being able to drop volley on your FH wing, is not a glaring hole... etc.
I'm having trouble reconciling this seemingly tall order of yours without a better understanding of what you mean by "reasonable competence", I guess.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
To OP:
I play only doubles, and my pro is always after me to run around my BH. More specifically, when the ball is coming right at me, I default to BH. Nope, he hates it.
The issue is that I have more confidence in my 2HBH than my FH. I hit harder with BH and am more consistent with it. I also feel that an ad court player who runs into the alley to play a FH is leaving a whole lot of court undefended.
We’re going to keep working on it, though. What better way to build FH confidence than to hit more of them?
I play only doubles, and my pro is always after me to run around my BH. More specifically, when the ball is coming right at me, I default to BH. Nope, he hates it.
The issue is that I have more confidence in my 2HBH than my FH. I hit harder with BH and am more consistent with it. I also feel that an ad court player who runs into the alley to play a FH is leaving a whole lot of court undefended.
We’re going to keep working on it, though. What better way to build FH confidence than to hit more of them?
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
For ladies doubles 4.0, you don’t need a topspin serve.
For volleys, once you have good technique you can hit deep, short, or in between.
For groundstrokes, no need for a slice FH, although it’s a natural offshoot of a FH volley.
That said, the more tools, the better.
Cindy — disappointed Dartagnan didn’t have any love for the lob volley
Cashman
Hall of Fame
My interpretation of @Dartagnan64's post was that 4.5 is the first level where you can't really survive without a base level of competence across the board, because your opponent now has the ability to target weaknesses - so a 4.5 is a good example of what a well-rounded game looks like.
At lower levels, the player with the most well-rounded game will usually win - so it makes sense to develop that first, and worry about weapons later.
Perhaps if you play exclusively on hardcourt and clay. On faster low-bouncing surfaces, you may not have to hit it a lot - but I guarantee if you demonstrate an inability to hit it, you will get a lot of short-and-low balls to your forehand.
The advantage of the three serves is that they cover the three main possible trajectories. If you can only hit two of them your serve is instantly much more predictable, so you have to hit them both a lot better than you would otherwise.
Which is generally the case with a lot of the stuff we're talking about. You certainly can survive at lower levels without being able to hit certain bread-and-butter shots - but it makes your life awfully hard in other areas, trying to cover for them.
Placing a waiter's tray serve at 70mph and getting it in 70% of the time is quite impressive. Imagine how good that player could be if they actually put all that effort into learning a decent serve.
Which is really what we're talking about. If you're playing at 3.5-4.0 level, are you better off developing weapons or, you know, just developing a solid all-round game that means you don't really need them? Results would indicate that the least weaknesses generally wins.
So many players at that level are focused on developing swing volleys and lob volleys and high MPH flat serves when they would get far more bang for their buck by just concentrating on being able to do the simple things right. It's boring, but it works.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
4.5 and above are competent in all strokes and rock solid in a few. They can't be easily beat by just targeting a weakness and they are developing weapons that you need to stay away from.
3.5 should be competent in several strokes but may still have weaknesses that are easy to target. 4.0 is the transition point of shoring up those weaknesses. Those that don't typically stay at 4.0. Those that do can move beyond 4.0.
There are few glaring deficiencies below 4.5. You can play 3.5 and 4.0 and compete without competence at every stroke. But I believe its easiest to build a game around a good arsenal and move higher that way. And I don't know a 4.5 player that can't hit a flat, slice and kick serve with varying degrees of ability. They may predominantly use only one or two serves but they know the technique and are competent.
No doubt. Never said anything below 4.5 couldn't compete with incompetent strokes. I just said players should work towards competence and that at 4.5 almost every player I've seen can hit all shots competently and usually a few shots exceptionally.
niche stroke
Really that's all I tried to say. Nowhere did I say anyone needed a well rounded game especially below 4.5. I just said I believed it was best to become well rounded and develop weapons from a sound base.
I totally agree - I guess I wasn't clear - when I said I thought I needed to have a TS BH, it was because I thought I looked like a hack because I didn't have it... and here's the part I should have been more clear about: I now believe that I was wrong, and set myself on a fool's errand, wasting a few months of instruction and effort on a shot I rarely hit while I have an alternative that is just as effective, if not moreso at my level and for any level of tennis I have a hope of reaching... The truth is that I don't/didn't look like a hack because I only sliced my backhand, I look like a hack I'm a 3.5 player, and whether or not I ever develop a powerful OHTSBH will not change how much of a hack I look or don't look like
I pretty much don't care if I look like a hack now, as long as I do well in my matches, and if that means I beat my opponents with a "death by a thousand slices" approach, then so be it.
One of the best players in our club, his regular service is at 100+ mph, yet mostly slices from forehand.
He is ranked very well. And you probably don't want to meet these slices from forehand.
He actually plays a bit of opposite when compared to Federer and Del Potro.
He will slice from forehand till he can run around and hit a killing backhand.
Then recently I played vs a guy with similar style, though not as good as this guy from my club.
His backhand is strong, but not really "killing". You have more chances to return it.
And his forehand slice is also not that dangerous, though he compensates with amazing dropshots, which are difficult to read.
It took me a while till I understood how to play. Unfortunately due to the time required to understand & test efficient way how to play vs him, it was late in the game, and I was unlucky, didn't use the setballs to go to set 3, so I lost.
He defeated recently most of the opponents he played, including well ranked guys.
So, let me ask you again, where is the problem with the slice on one wing?
These 2 guys are a good example for me that if you didn't master one shot, you can still be a very dangerous opponent.
P.S. the slice is not only a defensive shot, it can be quite aggressive as well.
My man, I am with you! I am trying to be as clear as I can - I think that having "only" slice on one wing in the ranks of rec players can DEFINITELY be more than adequate (assuming you hit that slice well). For me, my BH slice is quite good (relative to my level) and I use it offensively and defensively. I hit it for drops, I hit it for low driving shots, CC and DTL. I hit it with heavy side spin and short on returns of serve to pull the server way off court, and so forth... I only hit the TS BH on rare shots, maybe one BH in 5 or less, precisely because unless it's a perfect ball, I will likely hit the slice better. On a perfect ball though, sure, I can rip my "Wawrinka" backhand as one of my playing partners calls it, but it's not really that reliable in a wide variety of situations the way my BH slice is.
So again - I agree with you ENTIRELY.
After playing one season of ladies USTA 3.5 and 4.0 both, the main difference I noticed in stroke competency is with 3.5, if you accidentally hit directly to your opponent, you still have some chance that they'll make an error, especially with an overhead or net volley. With 4.0, if you accidentally give them something to work with, the point is over.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Definitely can take you as high as 4.0 easily. But still don't see a lot of 4.5's that can't hit a moderately penetrating drive BH.
Admittedly I've met the odd 4.5 that just has a serve and a FH, so weapons can compensate for alot. Those serves and FH's are above class though and its their lack of other strokes that holds them back from being 5.0's.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I think the difference between the limited game of 3.5-4.0 rec players vs the all round game of 4.5+ can be illustrated during my morning practice sessions at the club. I usually see 2 guys using the ball machine on different mornings.
Player A is a life long 3.5 player. He sets the machine up and hits a dozens of topspin FH's and a bunch of 1HBH drives trying to perfect them and then goes home. Never seems to get any better.
Player B is a former 5.0 now playing about 4.0 coming back from knee surgery. He sets up the Ball machine and stands at the baseline and proceeds to hit a bunch of FH's topspin, slices and lobs, then a bunch of BH's topspin, slices and lobs. Then he moves close to the service line and hits a bunch of half volleys off the FH and BH wings. Then he goes up to the net and works on volleys off both wings. Then he sets the machine up for lobs and practices overheads from the service line and one bounce overheads from the baseline. Then he goes home. He'll be back up to 4.5 pretty soon I imagine.
Player A is a life long 3.5 player. He sets the machine up and hits a dozens of topspin FH's and a bunch of 1HBH drives trying to perfect them and then goes home. Never seems to get any better.
Player B is a former 5.0 now playing about 4.0 coming back from knee surgery. He sets up the Ball machine and stands at the baseline and proceeds to hit a bunch of FH's topspin, slices and lobs, then a bunch of BH's topspin, slices and lobs. Then he moves close to the service line and hits a bunch of half volleys off the FH and BH wings. Then he goes up to the net and works on volleys off both wings. Then he sets the machine up for lobs and practices overheads from the service line and one bounce overheads from the baseline. Then he goes home. He'll be back up to 4.5 pretty soon I imagine.
The three serves thing seems like nonsense. I'm a 4.5 and this year I won 75% of my matches, and I have two serves at most, a first (flat, a bit of slice I suppose) and a second (supposed to be a kick serve). I think a *majority* of the players I play against don't have "three different spin serves" that they pull out. There's plenty that clearly don't.
I think you're overestimating the need for variety. The shots you need are a FH, BH, first/second serve, and volleys. You don't need multiple variations of each to be a 4.5.
I think you're overestimating the need for variety. The shots you need are a FH, BH, first/second serve, and volleys. You don't need multiple variations of each to be a 4.5.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
If you want to maximize your potential as an ad court doubles player, you’d probably be better off just honing your good 2hb and practicing your fh slice return.
I say this because I have the same issue. My topspin forehand is subpar for my level, while my 2hb is better than my level. My forehand volley is good for my level though. I only play ad court in doubles due to this. My competitive results in doubles started improving once I ditched the idea of actually using topspin forehands in matches, and committing fully the slice forehand return. My return of serve on my forehand wing is actually pretty good for my level now. I’ve gone entire matches without needing to hit a single topspin forehand.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I agree. It’s far better to have one solid and reliable way to direct the ball toward your target than to have 3 less reliable ways.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
ISO FH is not hard at all. Just rotate more. DO the shot and it will come naturally. Drill
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
If you have "flat-slice" that probably is good enough to count for 2 serve types. I'm sure you could competently put more slice on it if you wanted to. So i think you are being disingenuous saying you only have 2 serves. You only use 2 serves but you likely have the technique to serve a slice out wide if you needed/wanted. Many of the 4.5's I've played against only use 2 serves but can hit every serve if you ask them to show you.
What you use 90% of the time is the shots you've acquired some degree of mastery over. Doesn't mean you don't know and can't execute the other less commonly used shots.
No one "needs" variety. I just don't think its that hard to hit most of the tennis shots technique wise that its hard to learn them. Mastery is different from competency.
Its best to have 3 reliable ways and one way with significant mastery.
GatorTennis
Rookie
My natural stroke lends itself to an inside out FH. Lucky I guess. Over the last few years I started playing AD, and stayed out somewhat wide so I could hit more FH's. I have the windshield wiper swing and the spin kicks it out right.
