Why can’t he be in a tier with Stan, Safin, and Hewitt? I don’t see the problem there?
Soderling doesn’t belong there, I agree.
Can Alcaraz-Sinner become the greatest tennis rivalry of all time?
- Thread starter Kralingen
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Soderling doesn’t belong there, I agree.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Everyone is hypocrite. We just try to be least hypocritical. I have many times made my position on Murray clear
I was thinking you are talking to entire ttw community and not me personally. Because with me , you will not find much luck. Give winners the respect and not make excuse is where I am in 2025.
Maddamhussein
Rookie
That's big of you.
What was the deal with posting the feather and gong videos then? Because you wasn't being respectful then, you was taking the p*ss out of Murray.
And while you're at least self-aware with it, that is precisely the hypocrisy that I am referring to.
Sinner so far seems cold as ice. Their 4 last meetings have been in Alcaraz playground (2x clay, IW - practically clay, and Beijing). So far this is a bit like early Fed-Rafa rivalry, where Rafa mostly couldnt go deep enough to face Federer in Federers playground.
Im not saying youre wrong, but Alcaraz needs to face and beat Sinner at AO/USO first.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I remember you now. You are the one who created some thread like Murray is atg and anyone who says otherwise is hater.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
Hopefully that happens and then we get a clearer picture. We can see if sinner can win on his better surfaces or if alcaraz has him completely no matter the surface or event. Even then though the pressure will be on sinner to win and alcaraz can use that to his advantage. They can only meet in finals now they 1 and 2 and alcaraz is better in finals. He a bit like Nadal was, where the longer he stays in tournaments the more of a beast he becomes and his finals record is pretty hot.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Alcaraz beat sinner in usopen
Sure, i meant after he peaked!
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
The majority of people are fair. But you don't hear from them in social media. In social media people who are unreasonable, arrogant, and polarized dominate the conversations at all times. People who are reasonable step back because there is no way to compete with people who think they are always right and who never shut up.
Social media is the perfect place for people who don't have anyplace to hang out in real life. In real life no one puts up with them.
And make no mistake, this website functions like social media.
Yeah question is if Carlo will get into his head like Rafa/Fed, or if their rivalry will be more like Rafole, where Sinner will dominate the HC rivalry.
So far, Sinner seems like a mental beast, almost like Djokovic. He was 0-7 vs Med which he turned around, and also had his share of beatings by Nole.
Borg-Mac had one of the most iconic matches of all! Borg-Mac, Sampras-Agassi and the three rivalries of Big 3! WB80, WB08 and AO12 are the three iconic matches!
Djokodal lopsided? I don't think so, each dominated his own domain!
Maddamhussein
Rookie
Because Murray's done more in the game and won more than they have.
He has 16 more titles than the next person on that list (Hewitt with 30), he has 5 more Big Titles than everyone on that list combined (Safin with 7, Stan and Hewitt with 4).
Two time and back-to-back Olympic Gold medalist
He is one of 8 players to have more then 200 wins at Grand Slams.
He is one of 12 players to have made the final of every Grand Slam - Sampras didn't, Becker didn't, Connors didn't, McEnroe didn't. And these are players that we can both agree are greater than Murray.
He is one of 12 players to have 100+ wins vs Top 10 players.
He has 29 wins vs Big 3 - and the difference between Murray and the second placed person is the exact amount of the number of wins of the highest placed person on that list (Wawrinka with 12 wins vs Big 3).
Granted, he has half the weeks of Hewitt at world number one but he has far exceeded him elsewhere and defeated him at 18 to win his first career title. Stan and Safin, for as great as they are, were career 60% players who were nowhere near as consistent as Murray was and were not perennial slam contenders the way Murray was for the best part of a decade.
This isn't a knock on these players, I liked them all for different reasons, but a credit to how good Murray really was.
I think a lot of users here think I want him to be deified to God level status or something. For the record, I don't think he's top 10 all-time, I don't think he'd win 15 slams in other eras, but he was elite for the better part of a decade and only ever really lost to the three greatest players of all time, which is not only nothing to be ashamed of, but not something you could say of Stan, Safin or Hewitt.
Maddamhussein
Rookie
DSH
Bionic Poster
Well, if Sinner keeps losing to Alcaraz, I don't think that "rivalry" will be held in such high regard.
UnderArmServeOP
Hall of Fame
Where are all the Sinner fans at today? Very quiet on the message board. No new threads, no new hypothetical scenarios that add anything of value, no glazing.
Feels weird to have logged in today.
Feels weird to have logged in today.
M4tchP0int
Rookie
he is the max verstappen of tennis. A guy that could be goat (8 titles) but since he wants to quit F1 in his early 30's (2028) he won't because he has more interests outside.
Nadal on clay was stronger in Bo5 than Bo3! That makes a lot of sense! I could remember Nadal's one five-setter on RG, how many were there, two or three?In order to be as great a duo as them, they have to be at least as good as 1 of them, no ?
What are the records in Bo3 and Bo5 for the greats of the game?
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Nadal was pushed to 5 by Djokovic, Isner and Felix Aliassime
RaulRamirez
Legend
My vote was "possible but not likely".
Perhaps, a good thread would be to have people rank what they think have been the greatest rivalries, and what they base that on:
^ number of matches played?
^^ number of matches at slams?
^^^ "significance of matches"?
^^^^ significance of their careers?
^^^^^ how even and unpredictable were the rivalries?
^^^^^^ more intangibly, how much box office did they bring, even spreading to non-tennis fans?
For many, I'm thinking that, in some order, the top 5 rivalries would include the three Big3 matchups, Borg v McEnroe and Pete v Andre. Of course, there are others to consider.
Perhaps, a good thread would be to have people rank what they think have been the greatest rivalries, and what they base that on:
^ number of matches played?
^^ number of matches at slams?
^^^ "significance of matches"?
^^^^ significance of their careers?
^^^^^ how even and unpredictable were the rivalries?
^^^^^^ more intangibly, how much box office did they bring, even spreading to non-tennis fans?
For many, I'm thinking that, in some order, the top 5 rivalries would include the three Big3 matchups, Borg v McEnroe and Pete v Andre. Of course, there are others to consider.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
To me there is just Quality + Quantity .
Just like Goat is Dominance + Consistency
So Fedkovic playing unpredictable and close matches doesn't matter to me as only 5 slam finals and many slam semis. Yes they have atp finals as well but all one way street.
While Fedal have 8 slam finals and Rafole 8 slam finals. That's quality.
Fed won 3 and Nadal 5 (4 on clay)
Nole won 3 and Nadal 5 (3 on clay)
These are very competitive rivalries.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I am sorry i polluted this board for some time saying 8 times, but fedal and rafole met each other 9 time each in slam finals
Fed won 3 and Nadal 6 (4 on clay)
Nole won 4 and Nadal 5 (3 on clay)
Sineraz will have to meet 10 times in slam finals. Very difficult.
Fed won 3 and Nadal 6 (4 on clay)
Nole won 4 and Nadal 5 (3 on clay)
Sineraz will have to meet 10 times in slam finals. Very difficult.
RaulRamirez
Legend
What would be your top 5 Open Era men's rivalries, and if you want, rank the rivalries?
(I don't know my order, but I think the five I mentioned would be the ones.)
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
The wings for this rivalry will be air-fried. No matter how you sauce em, it's always going to come out a bit more bland.....
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Last edited:
Nadal was the big daddy in majors.
Novak showed his master class in non recognized ITF events.
For more than 10 years, it was always never in doubt who the victor will be. That is not how rivalries are supposed to be. Sure, there was a good period , but that is just one portion of it.
What do you mean by “always never in doubt who the victor will be”, it’s a 31-29 H2H. In Slams it’s 11-7. Never in doubt? Did you start watching tennis in 2021? Even back then it was hotly contested who would win, remember Djokovic was actually favoured at RG 20 and Nadal favoured at RG 21 for example.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
I think their 2018 Rome semi final match was important. Nadal beat Djokovic 7-6, 6-3, and kept him at bay, and celebrated like it.
The 2019 Australian Open final was a big match off clay.
The Guru
G.O.A.T.
Because he’s significantly better than them
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Important in what sense if you can care to explain.
Djokovic lost early in rg but he still ended the year number 1 winning 2 slams and 2 masters.
I think it's one of the more unimportant matches of their rivalry. Like Beijing 23 Sinner win over Alcaraz.
The important matches are historically remembered. Like USO 2013.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
That feather of doom moment did seem to change the momentum of the 2013 Australian Open final. It went from a tight match with slight momentum to Murray, to pretty strong momentum for Djokovic.
LOL.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Murray lost 5 games straight after the gong and then lost the match.
Total mental breakdown.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Djokovic was trying hard to "get back". He was kept at bay that time, at 2018 Rome, by Nadal. The next time was the 2018 French Open, when he lost to Cecchinato, sulked massively in the corner of a small room in the post-match press conference, giving one word answers. The next time was 2018 Queen's Club, getting championship point against Cilic and losing. Then came the 2018 Wimbledon semi final, where Nadal let the Djokovic genie get out of the bottle.
Djokovic lost in the quarter final of the 2018 French Open. Not that early in the tournament.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Quarter is early for Djokovic then. I see almost no history changing moment that Rome did. Djokovic still ended up winning Wimbledon and usopen.
In fact the Rome loss is now remembered as the place where Djokovic got his mojo back.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
In the 2011 Wimbledon semi final against Nadal, Murray played aggressively to win the first set, started the second set strongly, and then missed a simple forehand long. Murray then went into meltdown for something like 2 sets and ended up losing in 4 sets. It was a total contrast to their 2010 Wimbledon semi final, which was tight and edgy throughout, with Nadal just edging the important points in a 6-4, 7-6, 6-4 win.
langley
Hall of Fame
Yes I'd agree it's one of the more insignificant, Djoker was coming back from Surgery and had yet to find his form again. I recall even after his RG exit many on here and reddit were claiming Novak's days of winning slams were behind him.
From 2014-2024, it was clear who the winner was going to be going into the match . No real surprises. Do we call that rivalry ?
Why didn’t he win significantly more Slams then
langley
Hall of Fame
these three other guys who were significantly better than him stopped him.
Nadal didn’t let Djokovic genie out of the bottle
The Zverevs, Ruuds, Tsitsipass and Rublevs did
this is the exact tier Murray belongs.
The Guru
G.O.A.T.
First of all 3 is significantly more than 1 second of all is Roddick significantly better than Gaudio or no?
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Murray is significantly better than wawrinka. I would say Murray is very close to Edberg and Becker.
Far far away from big 3.
But yes rinka dhinka phinka are not close to Murray.
Far far away from big 3.
But yes rinka dhinka phinka are not close to Murray.
Hewitt Wawrinka and Safin all have multiple, and all beat ATGs on their best surfaces to do it as well. Murray has an uber weak Raonic Open which is comparable to Hewitt’s ‘02 Wimby and I’m sure a lot of players including Roddick could’ve won that
It’s moreso that Murray didn’t even come close to winning a single one of the Slam finals he made and lost. I’d be much more forgiving if he did. He was more consistent yes but ultimately did not bring a significantly higher level in Slams than those other 3. Does he deserve to be there with Becker Edberg Agassi and Wilander? I don’t think so.
Maybe if you want to break it further to a smaller micro Courier/Guga tier that’s better, I can live with that
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
While I am bringing down Andy Murray, I should also bring down Edberg and Becker. The 6 slam level is arbitrary enough. The more we are going to get double digits slam winners, the worse will be position for Beckers of this world.
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