Can ATP Players join WTA after a sex change?

A

avmoghe

Semi-Pro
I've been a bit curious about this. Hypothetically speaking, would any of ATP players be able to change their sex through an operation and join the WTA?

This represents quite an opportunity for the lower ranked journeymen on the ATP. WTA events have comparable (often equal) prize money to the ATP events. It seems as if it would be surefire way for the ATP journeymen to get rich easily. I can imagine a low ranked ATP player turning into the GOAT for the women's tour.

Anybody know the rules in such a situation?
 
avmoghe said:
I've been a bit curious about this. Hypothetically speaking, would any of ATP players be able to change their sex through an operation and join the WTA?

This represents quite an opportunity for the lower ranked journeymen on the ATP. WTA events have comparable (often equal) prize money to the ATP events. It seems as if it would be surefire way for the ATP journeymen to get rich easily. I can imagine a low ranked ATP player turning into the GOAT for the women's tour.

Anybody know the rules in such a situation?
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lol
So..are you suggesting that the journeymen should have a sex-change so as to win more money and become GOATs??:mrgreen: roflmao

Well..I think that there was one player who after a sex-change had joined the WTA...
 
I was surprised at how easily Renee Richards lost to Tracy Austin. Supposedly, Richards was a pretty good men's college player at one time.
 
LttlElvis said:
I was surprised at how easily Renee Richards lost to Tracy Austin. Supposedly, Richards was a pretty good men's college player at one time.
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you obviously play better with 2 balls in the pocket. ;)
 
I think its been done before. But nevertheless, a question that still intriuges me. Where do you draw the line between a man and a woman? And if you just say penis and vagina, then yes, a journeyman will become woman's no.1 after a sex change.
 
avmoghe said:
I've been a bit curious about this. Hypothetically speaking, would any of ATP players be able to change their sex through an operation and join the WTA?

This represents quite an opportunity for the lower ranked journeymen on the ATP. WTA events have comparable (often equal) prize money to the ATP events. It seems as if it would be surefire way for the ATP journeymen to get rich easily. I can imagine a low ranked ATP player turning into the GOAT for the women's tour.

Anybody know the rules in such a situation?
Click to expand...

Those operations are not done on demand. The doctors will do a lot of psychological assessment before such a surgery. And what would the GOAT do with all the money once it is over and he wants to be a man again?
 
Richard Raskind set the precedent. SO...

Dude, go for it. I mean, ahem, "you GO GIRL!!!"

Just try not to get caught with your lover's asthma medication residue in your water glass, okay? The rules are TOUGH on that shtuff!!
 
BiGGieStuFF said:
I believe renee richards did it but by the time he/she got it done he/she was pretty old for tennis standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renee_Richards
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I was wondering if the ATP/WTA would allow this sort of thing today. My guess is NO, and that unlike Renee Richard's days, the Supreme Court in today's political climate would never allow something like this.

I think that if a player had never been a professional on either tour, and was taking the right amount of hormones, then s/he should be allowed to play on tour even after a sex change. I wonder what other folks think . . .
 
alienhamster said:
I was wondering if the ATP/WTA would allow this sort of thing today. My guess is NO, and that unlike Renee Richard's days, the Supreme Court in today's political climate would never allow something like this.

I think that if a player had never been a professional on either tour, and was taking the right amount of hormones, then s/he should be allowed to play on tour even after a sex change. I wonder what other folks think . . .
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I guess it would be hard considering it was allowed before. What grounds would they have to go against a prior supreme court's decision on another similar case? I guess the chromosome argument that someone brought up earlier would be valid. What else? But in today's day and age what person would put themselves up for such scrutiny? It seemed to go under the radar back then. Then again I was barely alive or even a thought but I had never heard anything about it until i picked up tennis.

If it were to happen in today's age, it would spread around the world like wildfire.
 
I don't think so. If a players has been playing in the ATP then he's a guy and cannot join the WTA because he has Y chromosomes.
 
There was a movie about a guy like that, I don't remember name of movie. I personally would resent such a move though. To me it's like for minor league adult player to forge a birth cirtificate to compete in junior events, only worse cause more money involved. Also worse cause instead of faking papers he's faking genitals, how can you respect an athlete like that.
 
Well, technically speaking, would they not have to look at the rule book for such a case?

If I remember correctly, the ATP stands for Association of Tennis Professionals and nothing explicitly prevents women from entering the ATP.

Does the WTA have a rule specifying that anyone with a Y chromosome is not allowed to enter (or perhaps some other definition) ?
 
Talk about the ultimate way to sandbag. Anybody seen that movie Nobody's Perfect, which has Chad Lowe as a college student who pretends to be a woman and plays on the tennis team.
 
Back during all that, a girl wanted to enter an ATP event. I guess they were afraid of a lawsuit and let her in. She played, I believe, John Newcombe in the first round and got....spanked.
 
bumping this because it's relevant to the transgender discussion going on in MMA. Now the money in women's MMA is nothing compared to the WTA. The money in women's tennis is by far the most for any female athlete. What would be the impact of a 6'6" 200lbs male player getting a sex change then dominating on the WTA. This is a serious question. I'm all for equality but there is no equality in sports. If there was then the tours would be co-ed
 
There is no amount of money in the world. And I don't think this should be allowed. They should have a transgender league if that's what they want.
 
If a young highly ranked ATP player goes through with it, she could go on and absolutely dominate WTA for 10 years, not losing a single match, and earn huge amount of prize money, but zero endorsement money. That sounds fun.
 
Dear Djordje said:
If a young highly ranked ATP player goes through with it, she could go on and absolutely dominate WTA for 10 years, not losing a single match, and earn huge amount of prize money, but zero endorsement money.
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But doesn't sex change also mean they take away your "mojo" so to speak? :)
Without your mojo you would be just like a big boned ugly broad.
 
When you get a sex change, you become neither a man or woman, essentially. You're just somewhere in between. It's a tricky situation. I just love that we're at a stage in our evolution where you can just change whatever you don't like about yourself, and then act like the world owes you something. It's really interesting.
 
ctoth666 said:
When you get a sex change, you become neither a man or woman, essentially. You're just somewhere in between. It's a tricky situation. I just love that we're at a stage in our evolution where you can just change whatever you don't like about yourself, and then act like the world owes you something. It's really interesting.
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LOL. Thats pretty funny. You dont even have to change anything really. You just need to be a victim some how and scream about it all the time. Find some way to lobby for it and your home free!
 
Dear Djordje said:
If a young highly ranked ATP player goes through with it, she could go on and absolutely dominate WTA for 10 years, not losing a single match, and earn huge amount of prize money, but zero endorsement money. That sounds fun.
Click to expand...

Sounds like Martin
 
I'm sure there will be a time when a transgender person brings this issue to the forefront, but I certainly hope and expect it will be someone who truly believes they need to live a woman's life in a female body and not someone trying to make a quick buck! There is no man I know that would consider a sex change for any amount of money. It's not like they could just switch back to a man once they retire.
 
librarysteg said:
I'm sure there will be a time when a transgender person brings this issue to the forefront, but I certainly hope and expect it will be someone who truly believes they need to live a woman's life in a female body and not someone trying to make a quick buck! There is no man I know that would consider a sex change for any amount of money. It's not like they could just switch back to a man once they retire.
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Yeah, exactly. I'm pretty sure a pickle jar wouldn't probably cut it.
 
TheNightHunter said:
But doesn't sex change also mean they take away your "mojo" so to speak? :)
Without your mojo you would be just like a big boned ugly broad.
Click to expand...
Wasn't there a James Bond girl who was trans ?

I am told there are hundreds of such cases in the far east who are indistinguishable from women.

In any case, why is the person concerned winning so much money and becoming famous?
 
ctoth666 said:
When you get a sex change, you become neither a man or woman, essentially. You're just somewhere in between. It's a tricky situation. I just love that we're at a stage in our evolution where you can just change whatever you don't like about yourself, and then act like the world owes you something. It's really interesting.
Click to expand...

Yeah, neither, they become a Transtesticle.
 
If a transgendered player defeated their opponent 6-0, 6-0, maybe they could call it a Tootsie Roll instead of a double bagel
 
Richards wasn't an ATP player and the US Open is not a WTA event but a USTA event.

In any case, Richards won her lawsuit when she sued the USTA back in August 1977 seeking (and getting) an injunction to allow her to participate in that years USO, one of the most notorious USOs ever but only in part due to her participation. Apparently the USTA declined to appeal the injunction.

Richards sued in NY state court and prevailed using the New York State Human Rights Law. For people not up on US law, our states have their own constitutions and their own statutes both of which may be more expansive insofar as granting us rights than the US Constitution does.

The NY Law she relied on is kind of the statutory embodiment of the (much underrated in my opinion) "pursuit of happiness" line from our Declaration of Independence.

You can read it here if you are interested:

http://law.onecle.com/new-york/executive/EXC0290_290.html

The USTA wanted the chromosome test, the Judge wasn't buying given the specific facts of the case:

"When an individual such as plaintiff, a successful physician, a husband and father, finds it necessary for his own mental sanity to undergo a sex reassignment, the unfounded fears and misconceptions of defendants must give way to the overwhelming medical evidence that this person is now female."

Gene Scott (R.I.P.), well known in tennis circles, who ran a tourney for years in South Orange, NJ, supported Richards. Francoise Durr (holder of maybe the ugliest backhand of all time), Janet Newberry and Kristien K. Shaw were WTA players that submitted affidavits opposing Richards.

I remember Nastase played mixed with Richards that year at the USO and mixed doubles was never as popular.
 
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Tshooter said:
Richards wasn't an ATP player and the US Open is not a WTA event but a USTA event.

In any case, Richards won her lawsuit when she sued the USTA back in August 1977 seeking (and getting) an injunction to allow her to participate in that years USO, one of the most notorious USOs ever but only in part due to her participation. Apparently the USTA declined to appeal the injunction.

Richards sued in NY state court and prevailed using the New York State Human Rights Law. For people not up on US law, our states have their own constitutions and their own statutes both of which may be more expansive insofar as granting us rights than the US Constitution does.

The NY Law she relied on is kind of the statutory embodiment of the (much underrated in my opinion) "pursuit of happiness" line from our Declaration of Independence.

You can read it here if you are interested:

http://law.onecle.com/new-york/executive/EXC0290_290.html

The USTA wanted the chromosome test, the Judge wasn't buying given the specific facts of the case:

"When an individual such as plaintiff, a successful physician, a husband and father, finds it necessary for his own mental sanity to undergo a sex reassignment, the unfounded fears and misconceptions of defendants must give way to the overwhelming medical evidence that this person is now female."

Gene Scott (R.I.P.), well known in tennis circles, who ran a tourney for years in South Orange, NJ, supported Richards. Francoise Durr (holder of maybe the ugliest backhand of all time), Janet Newberry and Kristien K. Shaw were WTA players that submitted affidavits opposing Richards.

I remember Nastase played mixed with Richards that year at the USO and mixed doubles was never as popular.
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Right, for mental sanity, not for monetary gain. The courts would likely rule differently on that. And, I can't imagine any guy who doesn't feel trapped in the wrong gender actually contemplating a re-assignment.

Oh, and I had completely forgotten about Francoise Durr. I found this on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpjJtv7XaPk

Two things:
1 - Amazing how much the women's game has changed.
2 - Unfortunately, I must have patterned my backhand after hers
 
If after the surgery there is no difference, then why do we only hear about male to female transgender athletes. Where are all the female to male athletes?
 
"Oh, and I had completely forgotten about Francoise Durr."

I wish I could forget that backhand. But it's so horrific it gets imprinted forever.
 
Arafel said:
There's a lot of impressive ignorance on this thread, especially given the sketchy history of gender verification and chromosonal differences. If you are curious, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_verification_in_sports

Since the Olympics allow trans athletes, I would imagine either the WTA or ATP would as well.
Click to expand...

the best case study out there right now is Sarah Gronert, a WTA pro from germany who was born intersex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Gronert

she was trying to qualify for the USO last year and lost either first or second round. top career ranking was 164 last year
 
Sentinel said:
Wasn't there a James Bond girl who was trans ?

I am told there are hundreds of such cases in the far east who are indistinguishable from women.

In any case, why is the person concerned winning so much money and becoming famous?
Click to expand...
James Bond girl? Not that I know of. Probably a Roger Moore movie, I seriously doubt Sean Connery would have fallen for that. :)

Indistinguishable from women? You mean that they nag you constantly and insist on changing the room temperature to be hotter than is humanly tolerable?

The moral of the story: It's not too late for Federer to get 30 slams, he just needs to become Girliest Of All Time. ;)
 
Devilito said:
If after the surgery there is no difference, then why do we only hear about male to female transgender athletes. Where are all the female to male athletes?
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Actually I can see a sport where women may naturally have an advantage due to the smaller body size, but I think there is no point because as far as I know women can participate along with men even right now: Jockey.

Of course, a 6 lb monkey has both men and women beat. I make all my money these days thanks to Musher. It's hard to teach him not to whip the horses too hard, he's a mean little b@stard, especially when his favorite player (Federer) loses.
 
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In the 1970s there was the famous story of a transgender person Renee Richards he was born male but he got sex reassignment surgery and became a woman. However, Renee was not good on the WTA Tour the women beat him on the regular. I think this really showed people how tough the WTA Tour really is. So for the men on this board who think they can beat WTA pros think again you will probably lose and lose easily.
 
Actually, Richard Raskind (aka Renee Richards) was ranked around 20 even at his advanced age, mid forties, when he played on the WTA Tour in the latter 1970's. He even made it to a US Open Final in doubles.

An update about him (although this article is several years old.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/01/g...all&adxnnlx=1370792414-rJ/ZhJS0OE2hvDTC9eQulQ

If a top college player was willing to get his junk cut off, he could go far in the WTA.

A ranked ATP player could easily do so, as Karsten Braasch decisively proved about 15 years ago and as fifty-something Bobby Riggs proved
with his beat down of number one Margaret Court in the early 1970's (with junk still in tow.)
 
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Jeffrey573639 said:
I'm curious. Has this every happened?
Click to expand...

Yes. Richard Raskind became Renee Richards in 1975. Raskind had been playing on the amateur men's tour as far back as the 1950s. Richards played on the women's tour in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
 
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You cannot just get sexual reassignment surgery. First you must go through various stages of doctors in order to prove that psychologically you are mentally the opposite gender of your anatomical birth. This includes a psychiatrist who will examine you to decide whether you really are legit or not. They will then refer you to a gender specialist who will assess you, then more counseling and social transition, then hormones...all of this is before the actual surgery and would take years in some cases. For those saying/inferring a guy should do this for the money he would have to be a pretty darn good actor to pull off fooling all these professionals into believing he needs reassignment surgery. He would likely not get past the psychiatrist.

Now as for whether a person who for reasons of mental health and succeeds in getting the surgery wanting to then play on whatever tour would be deemed appropriate for their new gender...I believe legally the tours wouldn't have much ground in denying because if there are all kinds of professionals backing the need due to verifiable psychological or anatomical information...to deny it would fall under the umbrella of discrimination.
 
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