Can bad tennis players win against good tennis players?
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mucat
Hall of Fame
I disagree with the first half of the video. The part about who is a more skilled player. The winner is always the more skilled and better player ON THAT DAY.
Tennis is not just about stroke mechanics. Running and positioning are also part of tennis and they are more important then stroke mechanics.
But I totally agree with the 2nd half. Everyone should know how to push and should use it in a match when required.
Tennis is not just about stroke mechanics. Running and positioning are also part of tennis and they are more important then stroke mechanics.
But I totally agree with the 2nd half. Everyone should know how to push and should use it in a match when required.
Disagreeing with the first part is the norm - everyone has been saying that whoever wins is the better player. His argument is that players need less skilled strokes as well to win matches. So don't just work on higher skilled shots all the time, but also have strokes that require less resources to develop and employ them when the situation requires. I thought coach Pete came up with a brilliant rhetoric to explain the difference between tennis skill vs ability to win.
What if the lesser skilled player gets crazy and unfocused?
If your technique breaks down because your opponent feeds you nothing balls with no pace, you're not very good, it is really that simple. Tennis is not like ice skating, they are no points for executing a difficult forehand or hitting a massive serve. You get points for, well, winning the point.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Then that's just normal. He'll lose and no one is wiser.
NastyWinners
Hall of Fame
Skill/talent is subjective in my opinion.
Also if the opponent loses the point. Just as simple.
A doubles player looks at fitness as not a skill and claims he is more skilled but the young uns are beating him in singles due to purely fitness
A person playing a serve bot with poor ground strokes feels that they lost to an overall less skilled player only due to his serve skill being so much more dominant.
Meanwhile the singles player is correctly saying that his fitness AND technique is helping him hit shots correctly on the run. Maybe the doubles player even if his fitness was good would be poor at shots that require him to hit those on the run. The serve bot is thinking that opponents belittling his lack of overall skills should be able to return better and neutralize that advantage if they feel they are more skilled.
Maybe everything is equal but one guy is mentally tougher or can construct points better.
The bottom line is people have varying ideas of what they consider skill.
IMO the best way to look at it is that you lost to a player who won more games or tiebreaks than you. How they did that shouldn’t matter. The fact that they did that is a skill in itself…the skill of knowing how to win
A person playing a serve bot with poor ground strokes feels that they lost to an overall less skilled player only due to his serve skill being so much more dominant.
Meanwhile the singles player is correctly saying that his fitness AND technique is helping him hit shots correctly on the run. Maybe the doubles player even if his fitness was good would be poor at shots that require him to hit those on the run. The serve bot is thinking that opponents belittling his lack of overall skills should be able to return better and neutralize that advantage if they feel they are more skilled.
Maybe everything is equal but one guy is mentally tougher or can construct points better.
The bottom line is people have varying ideas of what they consider skill.
IMO the best way to look at it is that you lost to a player who won more games or tiebreaks than you. How they did that shouldn’t matter. The fact that they did that is a skill in itself…the skill of knowing how to win
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While you are stating many right things, the point coach Pete is making is specific to stroke skills. And how shots with higher skills(fast and furious TS for example) complement lower level skills (blocks or slices).
Is it something similar to an air fighting unit requires pilots as well as mechanics who are capable to refueling the tanks?
The problem there is that skills are being ascribed to offensive strokes. Why not to the defensive side? Why are blocks and slices lower level skill?
If my fast and furious strokes are being countered consistently by my opponent then either my strokes are not as great as I think or my opponent is skilled enough to handle that pace without blinking.
SeeItHitIt
Professional
USTA is larg made up of pushers and lob queens. At least below 4.5 and even then. So better/worse? It’s all the same.
Steady Eddy
Legend
It's very common that you get worse in order to get better. At first, adding pace will probably lead to more errors, playing the net won't work until your volleying gets better. But if you don't do these things, you'll never grow.
But you don't want to become the guy who hits so hard he can't keep the ball in play, says that someday this will pay off. But 5 years later he's still hitting everything out.
If you want to consider yourself a seriously skilled player, then go by tournament records or how you do in leagues. Don't worry about some practice match with someone you run into.
But you don't want to become the guy who hits so hard he can't keep the ball in play, says that someday this will pay off. But 5 years later he's still hitting everything out.
If you want to consider yourself a seriously skilled player, then go by tournament records or how you do in leagues. Don't worry about some practice match with someone you run into.
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The "proper" serve is still a higher level skill even if missed compared to a push serve that goes in.
I was seriously held back by this back in the day. I didn't use my real strokes against ppl I was better than because they would fail me against them. But when I played a real good player, I was forced to use them. If I just would've used my real strokes all the time, they would have developed much quicker and I could've been a better player because of it. Something I would still do today if I still played on a regular basis tbh.
Because they are easy to develop and does not require as much time and resources to be good at.
And reward is very limited.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
It is all semantics on what are skills and what are not - it is a very subjective area of discussion. In tennis, we count points, games and sets - not skills. There are different ways to win.
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Not true. If you are really hitting what you consider are skilled shots then the opponent who can consistently counter that with short take back defensive strokes or slices has great hand eye coordination, great touch and the speed to get to balls and do this over and over. That’s skill and there is no limit on that skill either.Thoae skills if it can keep handling pace at every level can take you very far.
mucat
Hall of Fame
Stokes are only a small part of tennis. I think Karue from My TennisHQ also mentioned that.
I don't think "proper" groundstrokes are higher skilled shots, this is just to make yourself feel better when losing to pusher. Your "proper" groundstrokes are not as proper as you think if they break down against easy, squishy shots.
it's those sharp slice every time players that require you to push back
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
It happens.
If it isn't in, it isn't a serve, it is just a ball you tossed over your head and smacked.
Players with real skill don't make loads of unforced errors.
What you say makes perfect sense when majority of winners at high level tennis are players with great defense and questionable offense. As it stands today, vast majority of winners are players who can "destroy" the ball when possible.
Based on the evidence, blocking and pushing is a low level skill.
At any level if you look at these winners they have ability to handle the speed and spin the peers at their levels are throwing. Without that they couldn’t have progressed to those levels. There is skill required to play defense.
As we discussed on the other thread skills are both on the offensive and defensive end. As S&V said accurately low level players just focus on offense don’t work or have the skills and work ethic to do what it takes on the defensive end but convince themselves that they are playing “real shots” and have a higher ceiling than the guy whose skills on the defensive end stand out, even though the latter has the higher ceiling
S
Slicehand
Guest
Yes, imagine that the good tennis player has taken heroin before the match... there are a lot of factors
mucat
Hall of Fame
I don't know what evidence you are based on.
Ian from Essential Tennis mentioned approximately 70% of points are result of errors This is in all level of tennis.
This is one of those questions that simply depends on how you define good and bad in relation to tennis players.
I didn't really start winning consistently even with all my fancy stroke skills until I learned how to play tennis the game, which is way more than just how you hit the ball.
I didn't really start winning consistently even with all my fancy stroke skills until I learned how to play tennis the game, which is way more than just how you hit the ball.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Good opinions, but the guy spent the first 4 minutes or so defining the semantics for his video. He demonstrated what was a skilled forehand and what wasn't. After that example we all have seen people with that forehand lose to the unskilled forehand, that's why he spent time saying more skill can exist in the losing player, even if on that day he loses to the unskilled player. It's a separate universe.
If the question is can a less skilled tennis player beat a more skilled tennis player, that question was answered in the video as a yes using the definitions provided in the video.
The best nugget of wisdom though was be one or the other, don't throttle down when facing a pusher. Pretty good advice.
If the question is can a less skilled tennis player beat a more skilled tennis player, that question was answered in the video as a yes using the definitions provided in the video.
The best nugget of wisdom though was be one or the other, don't throttle down when facing a pusher. Pretty good advice.
Enga
Hall of Fame
It doesnt have to be, you can think of it like what can a player do.
So for example, if a player knows how to hit the ball within 5 cm of the line on purpose, if they know how to hit the ball at 120mph on serve, if they know how to hit a drop shot and volley, those are all skills. It doesn't mean they WILL do all those things, it just means they know how. A less skilled player would be someone who doesn't know how to do all those things, yet we all know less skilled players can still win, because in the end it's about executing the plan.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
You can’t win in tennis if you have big weaknesses irrespective of your strengths - you might even lose to players with no strengths but with lesser weaknesses. Having bad shot tolerance in rallies, being unable to generate pace off slow balls and making unforced errors off short balls are three huge weaknesses that torpedo many players at lower levels irrespective of what other strengths they have. Those are the weaknesses that pushers prey on and their only strength is that they have good shot tolerance off neutral balls - but, that is a very good strength in tennis even if you don't hit with much pace or spin.
Life is like that too - if you have huge flaws, it is hard to be successful.
Life is like that too - if you have huge flaws, it is hard to be successful.
xFullCourtTenniSx
Hall of Fame
Think this guy mistook "trying to shortcut development to high performance strokes" for "skilled". Because skilled means being able to do something without screwing up on every 3rd attempt.
I can drive in a high performance car. It doesn't automatically make me a more skilled driver than a guy in a Camry.
I can use some high end photo editing program. It doesn't make me more skilled than someone using MS paint.
Literally anyone can try to hit a "heavy topspin" groundstroke if they don't care about missing. Anyone can attempt to use a high performance stroke. It doesn't make them more skilled in any way. Skill is being able to execute shots with intent.
Medvedev hit world #1 with a backhand with so little RPM you can see the brand label on the ball. He can still control the shape, pace, and depth of the shots.
Skill requires discipline to control yourself from overswinging just as much as it requires courage and faith to let the racket go.
I can drive in a high performance car. It doesn't automatically make me a more skilled driver than a guy in a Camry.
I can use some high end photo editing program. It doesn't make me more skilled than someone using MS paint.
Literally anyone can try to hit a "heavy topspin" groundstroke if they don't care about missing. Anyone can attempt to use a high performance stroke. It doesn't make them more skilled in any way. Skill is being able to execute shots with intent.
Medvedev hit world #1 with a backhand with so little RPM you can see the brand label on the ball. He can still control the shape, pace, and depth of the shots.
Skill requires discipline to control yourself from overswinging just as much as it requires courage and faith to let the racket go.
Agree with the last para. From your posts I know you are a better player than I ever will be but this is one video where I don’t think the coach explained it well. Maybe he meant something else but it came out differently for me and for a lot of folks on this thread.
If one didn’t see JMac serving or volleying and just happened to see him hit his groundstrokes, one wouldn’t think of him as a high level player. But even those ugly looking strokes had pace and more importantly were very consistent under pressure.
Look at Medvedev. His forehand and backhand both look like weird slap shots but are highly effective. Meanwhile many with more aesthetic looking strokes will never get to his level.
Skill is not the same as form. One’s form might look better but skill in any sporting event is based on results. Plus no matter how ugly the form if it is consistent and repeatable under pressure even as you move up levels that’s what counts and the results would bear that out as well. That’s how skill is measured.
FiddlerDog
Hall of Fame
The better player is the winner.
That is how numbers work.
That is how numbers work.
NastyWinners
Hall of Fame
On the other hand, if they know how to do it but can't replicate it enough to win matches...then how skilled are they?
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Thanks, but you can reach my level easily, just time and effort.
Anyway, I agree some pros look more pleasing, but I think the video is discussing 2 stereotypes that are only around the 3.5 level, not players who made a living from tennis, good points though.
A lot of the discussion in the thread is interesting, but to get the gist of the video I think it's best to accept the coaches vocabulary and not redefine form or skill. Just to get the message.
Dissecting skill, form, who wins is the best forever etc. Is a worthy discussion, but will miss the message.
Taking the whole video as one message, especially the conclusion, will give everyone a good concept.
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Enga
Hall of Fame
The problem with the word skill and skilled is it's often conflated with good or better. If I know how to use Photoshop, that's a skill, I could put it on my resume. Doesn't mean I will make something good with it, it just means I know how to use it, I've grasped the concept. Executing a maneuver or a plan isn't the same as a skill.
On the other side of the coin, lacking certain skills doesn't mean you're "bad". You can have strengths elsewhere that doesn't take into account how many skills you've learned.
On the other side of the coin, lacking certain skills doesn't mean you're "bad". You can have strengths elsewhere that doesn't take into account how many skills you've learned.
I think it comes down to rhythm. When you're learning new skills, you need some rhythm from a coach feeding you balls or a practice partner hitting somewhat predictable shots back to you.
The pusher or junk baller take away the rhythm and predictability. Being able to adapt to those match situations, and preventing your strokes from breaking down is a real skill.
Edit: I would say the one player is more skilled in terms of technique, but the other player is more skilled in terms of shot selection and tactics. The latter is more likely to win.
The pusher or junk baller take away the rhythm and predictability. Being able to adapt to those match situations, and preventing your strokes from breaking down is a real skill.
Edit: I would say the one player is more skilled in terms of technique, but the other player is more skilled in terms of shot selection and tactics. The latter is more likely to win.
FiddlerDog
Hall of Fame
Some things never change.
Would you like to borrow my copy?
Would you like to borrow my copy?
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Very true. Many confuse skill with looking like you have proper ‘form’.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Exactly! I suggest long term planning myself
Was chatting about this dillema before, here:
It feels like there are two types of tennis sports, meaning:
I could state that my form is way above my level. I even think that there 2 different sports of tennis: 1. One form based, art for the sake of the art. Like just practices, no matches. 2. The official tennis, played on points, usually a game of errors who favours pushers or people who know...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
FiddlerDog
Hall of Fame
That thread be some hilarious mental gymnastics of copium in order to justify sucking at tennis ! LOL
Steady Eddy
Legend
"Whoever said 'It's not whether you win or lose', probably lost." - Martina Navratilova
And now, "Just because I can't beat him, doesn't mean he's better."
And now, "Just because I can't beat him, doesn't mean he's better."
Enga
Hall of Fame
It should be noted that the most important factor is execution, wherein we get to the biggest part of tennis and sports in general - physical ability, reaction timing, tactics etc. Knowing more skills, understanding the concept behind them won't mean much if you can't execute it.
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