Can play up hurt your USTA rating?

[RenoTennisAddict]

I am curious, can playing up actually hurt your ratings?

I am looking at the TLS website. I understand the rating or algorithm on the site is not 100% accurate, but just as a guideline, it seems a lot of people who chose to play up actually got their rating hurt?

For example, I am a 3.5C player, and went 9/0 in local playoff (7 singles,2 doubles), 1-2 at District, and my TLS rating is 3.66, which will result a bump, same thing showed for a few of my teammates who only play 3.5 (mostly doubles) and have a rating like 3.51/3.55, which all showing it will be bumped.

However, then I am also in the 4.0 league, which win/loss ratio is 1-8, not great, but the one win was a single play against a 4.0C, and 2 of the other singles's score were pretty close (one lost in 3 sets, one in second set tiebreak), the other losses are against pretty decent player. From TLS, my 4.0 rating is only 3.18, which they took an average showing my cumulative rating is 3.46, so I will stay at 3.5.

TL;DR, how is playing up actually hurt your rating? It doesn't quite make sense when someone only plays 3.5 and get bumped, but you did better in 3.5, only you tried to challenge yourself to play up, but result not getting bumped, but if didn't play up, I would have been bumped? I checked some other player who played 3.5/4.0 , or 4.0/4.5, have similar pattern. Another one showing a 3.5s player playing in 4.0 (1-4 this year), and will get bumped down to 3.0??? How is that making sense?


TLS didn't account for the district play, or tournament, and I am not saying they are accurate, but is there any logical explanation that "playing up can hurt your rating"?

 

[GrassCourtFan]

Your rating goes up if you do better than your previous rating would indicate, and down if you play worse. Both can happen.

For example, if you're a high 3.5 and you play a low 4.0, and you get totally crushed like double bageled, your rating will go down. If you're a 3.5 playing up and you play another 3.5 playing up, that's no different than a regular league.

Also TLS isn't very good at predicting usta ratings.

 

[RenoTennisAddict]

Out of my 9 matches in 4.0 playing as a 3.5, all were 1st single or 1st/2nd doubles, and they were all 4.0C and few of them have undefeated record from 4.0 this year . So my point is, the players were all legitimate 4.0 if not high 4.0.

I just think it's weird that, according to TLS, if I had only play 3.5, I would get bumped, but because of the 4.0 play, I will stay at 3.5.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

The USTA computer doesn't look at it the same way we do. While there are labels like 3.5 or 4.0, the actual computer sees a continuum of ratings. You can have a 3.5 vs 4.0 match where the ratings are 3.01 vs 3.99 or where the ratings are 3.49 vs 3.51. So, if the 3.51 beats the 3.49 by a score of 6-0 6-0, the 3.49 dynamic rating is going to drop to like 3.05 or something, whereas if the 3.99 beats the 3.01 by the same score there will be little or no change. Both players were playing up, but the 3.49 got hurt by it. All the while, both matches are 3.5 vs 4.0.

 

[time_fly]

I am curious, can playing up actually hurt your ratings?

Theoretically yes, as the posters above explained. If you think you are good enough to play the next level, however, it can be a quicker way to get bumped up. You don't even have to win; you just need to post competitive scores against higher level players. So usually it's beneficial for your rating as long as you are ready for it.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I am a 3.5C player, and went 9/0 in local playoff (7 singles,2 doubles), 1-2 at District, and my TLS rating is 3.66, which will result a bump, same thing showed for a few of my teammates who only play 3.5 (mostly doubles) and have a rating like 3.51/3.55, which all showing it will be bumped.

Wow. That is almost exactly my last season of leagues a while back except I went 2/0 at sectionals, and did a little better in the 4.0 during match play, but was in 2 singles and 2 and 3 slot dubs. Never did get bumped and I wondered exactly the same - if playing the 4.0 hurt my rating (everyone else on the team has moved to 4.0 and higher now).

 

[schmke]

Theoretically yes, as the posters above explained. If you think you are good enough to play the next level, however, it can be a quicker way to get bumped up. You don't even have to win; you just need to post competitive scores against higher level players. So usually it's beneficial for your rating as long as you are ready for it.

Correct, but sometimes playing up when you aren't ready can result in lopsided losses as you get overwhelmed. I'm not suggesting this is the case for the OP, but it can happen and could result in at-level matches rating higher than played up matches.

 

[schmke]

Wow. That is almost exactly my last season of leagues a while back except I went 2/0 at sectionals, and did a little better in the 4.0 during match play, but was in 2 singles and 2 and 3 slot dubs. Never did get bumped and I wondered exactly the same - if playing the 4.0 hurt my rating (everyone else on the team has moved to 4.0 and higher now).

If playing doubles, who you play with can make a big difference. If in the at-level matches you play with a lower to mid-rated partner, your wins may result in pretty high ratings. If when you play up you play with a high-rated next level partner, if you don't also play high-rated next level opponents, you could be expected to do well in which case even close losses might not rate very well and lopsided losses could be low rated.

 

[RenoTennisAddict]

Correct, but sometimes playing up when you aren't ready can result in lopsided losses as you get overwhelmed. I'm not suggesting this is the case for the OP, but it can happen and could result in at-level matches rating higher than played up matches.

I guess I wonder if USTA actually consider it the same way that TLS does. My 3.5 record is the best on the team, also shown the highest 3.5 rating among my 3.5 teammates, but then because the fact that I played 4.0, it suggests that i will stay at 3.5 while everyone else gets bumped.

Plus my 4.0 matches weren't lopsided, won one 1st single, lost two pretty tight singles to two high 4.0 player, lost a few dubs with scoreline like 6-3, 6-3, but the opponents team beat many other teams with same scores, and two of my dubs we are both 3.5.

 

[RenoTennisAddict]

Wow. That is almost exactly my last season of leagues a while back except I went 2/0 at sectionals, and did a little better in the 4.0 during match play, but was in 2 singles and 2 and 3 slot dubs. Never did get bumped and I wondered exactly the same - if playing the 4.0 hurt my rating (everyone else on the team has moved to 4.0 and higher now).

Right, with 3.5 alone it suggest I will get bumped, so now all of sudden I get punished for trying 4.0, if that's the case it doesn't quite make sense to me. Especially my 4.0 matches were a lot closer than saying that i went 1-8

 

[schmke]

I guess I wonder if USTA actually consider it the same way that TLS does.

I think it is safe to say the answer to that question is no.

 

[OnTheLine]

If playing doubles, who you play with can make a big difference. If in the at-level matches you play with a lower to mid-rated partner, your wins may result in pretty high ratings. If when you play up you play with a high-rated next level partner, if you don't also play high-rated next level opponents, you could be expected to do well in which case even close losses might not rate very well and lopsided losses could be low rated.

So in a nutshell,
A. if you want to get bumped, play with the lowest level player you can on your team and hope for at least mid-range or better opponents and win at least 3s and 2s
B. if you DON"T want to get bumped, play with higher level players on your team ....

Yes? No?

 

[schmke]

So in a nutshell,
A. if you want to get bumped, play with the lowest level player you can on your team and hope for at least mid-range or better opponents and win at least 3s and 2s
B. if you DON"T want to get bumped, play with higher level players on your team ....

Yes? No?

Scores and opponents matter too of course, but you more or less got it. I write in more detail on my FAQ (Google "usta ntrp rating faq schmidt").

 

[OnTheLine]

Scores and opponents matter too of course, but you more or less got it. I write in more detail on my FAQ (Google "usta ntrp rating faq schmidt").

Here's hoping... I do NOT want to be bumped at the end of the year and could be on the kinda close.

 

[winchestervatennis]

I am curious, can playing up actually hurt your ratings?

I am looking at the TLS website. I understand the rating or algorithm on the site is not 100% accurate, but just as a guideline, it seems a lot of people who chose to play up actually got their rating hurt?

For example, I am a 3.5C player, and went 9/0 in local playoff (7 singles,2 doubles), 1-2 at District, and my TLS rating is 3.66, which will result a bump, same thing showed for a few of my teammates who only play 3.5 (mostly doubles) and have a rating like 3.51/3.55, which all showing it will be bumped.

However, then I am also in the 4.0 league, which win/loss ratio is 1-8, not great, but the one win was a single play against a 4.0C, and 2 of the other singles's score were pretty close (one lost in 3 sets, one in second set tiebreak), the other losses are against pretty decent player. From TLS, my 4.0 rating is only 3.18, which they took an average showing my cumulative rating is 3.46, so I will stay at 3.5.

TL;DR, how is playing up actually hurt your rating? It doesn't quite make sense when someone only plays 3.5 and get bumped, but you did better in 3.5, only you tried to challenge yourself to play up, but result not getting bumped, but if didn't play up, I would have been bumped? I checked some other player who played 3.5/4.0 , or 4.0/4.5, have similar pattern. Another one showing a 3.5s player playing in 4.0 (1-4 this year), and will get bumped down to 3.0??? How is that making sense?


TLS didn't account for the district play, or tournament, and I am not saying they are accurate, but is there any logical explanation that "playing up can hurt your rating"?

Think anout it logically. You win locally, but lose at districts against "the best" at level. And you lose at the next level. Sounds to me like you're the top of your current level.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Out of my 9 matches in 4.0 playing as a 3.5, all were 1st single or 1st/2nd doubles, and they were all 4.0C and few of them have undefeated record from 4.0 this year . So my point is, the players were all legitimate 4.0 if not high 4.0.

I just think it's weird that, according to TLS, if I had only play 3.5, I would get bumped, but because of the 4.0 play, I will stay at 3.5.

Look at it this way: if you knew this was going to be the outcome, would you have avoided playing up? I would think you still should have played up if your goal was to get exposure to better competition. Let your rating take care of itself; go out and compete!

 

[NumbersGuy]

TLS? Consider the source. Try TennisRecord.com instead.

 

[edathompson2]

I wouldn't use tls. I would recommend tennisrecord.com

 

[Deleted member 23235]

If anything, i'd expect playing up to only help your usta rating.
Consider a social set i played against a 5.5C...
Lost 6-2... for the sake of the example, let's say i lost 2,2...
i had 1 good service game, and the other game i got lucky and/or he was goofing around...
in general i had no chance of winning, but ultimately he was bored (going for "wow" shots, vs. the "right" shot), and let me have a couple games

presuming i'm a 4.25 and he's a 5.25, i think my rating would go up, by alot

similarly i've heard 5.0 guys complain (on ttw) about the "plus" leagues, because it affects their ratings if they happen to play 4.5's... (ignoring the 4.49 playing the 4.51), it's often hard to beat someone 0,0 even if you're "supposed" to.

even when i play 3.5's, while they typically have no chance of winning (eg. if i kick it to their bh i'll always get an UFE or short ball), i'll inevitably give away a game or 2... either due to overconfidence, trying something new, lack of focus, them treeing, etc...

my $0.02

so i guess in summary:
* if you want to inflate your rating, play up... by 2 levels if you can
* if you want an accurate rating, play your level

discuss!

 

[edathompson2]

If anything, i'd expect playing up to only help your usta rating.
Consider a social set i played against a 5.5C...
Lost 6-2... for the sake of the example, let's say i lost 2,2...
i had 1 good service game, and the other game i got lucky and/or he was goofing around...
in general i had no chance of winning, but ultimately he was bored (going for "wow" shots, vs. the "right" shot), and let me have a couple games

presuming i'm a 4.25 and he's a 5.25, i think my rating would go up, by alot

similarly i've heard 5.0 guys complain (on ttw) about the "plus" leagues, because it affects their ratings if they happen to play 4.5's... (ignoring the 4.49 playing the 4.51), it's often hard to beat someone 0,0 even if you're "supposed" to.

even when i play 3.5's, while they typically have no chance of winning (eg. if i kick it to their bh i'll always get an UFE or short ball), i'll inevitably give away a game or 2... either due to overconfidence, trying something new, lack of focus, them treeing, etc...

my $0.02

so i guess in summary:
* if you want to inflate your rating, play up... by 2 levels if you can
* if you want an accurate rating, play your level

discuss!

Only 4.5s can play up 2 levels by playing 5.0+. No one else can. As a 4.0, I cannot play 5.0+.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Only 4.5s can play up 2 levels by playing 5.0+. No one else can. As a 4.0, I cannot play 5.0+.

as an over 40y 4.0 you can play on a 40y 4.5+ team, where you could be playing #1s against a 5.0
even if you're only playing one level up as a "4.0" with a rating of 3.51, you could benefit from playing a 4.49

 

[kevrol]

Here's hoping... I do NOT want to be bumped at the end of the year and could be on the kinda close.

Since he can't solicit I will tell you that schmke would be more than happy to run a report for you for a small fee.

 

[edathompson2]

as an over 40y 4.0 you can play on a 40y 4.5+ team, where you could be playing #1s against a 5.0
even if you're only playing one level up as a "4.0" with a rating of 3.51, you could benefit from playing a 4.49

We don't have 4.5+ where I'm at.

 

[RenoTennisAddict]

If anything, i'd expect playing up to only help your usta rating.
Consider a social set i played against a 5.5C...
Lost 6-2... for the sake of the example, let's say i lost 2,2...
i had 1 good service game, and the other game i got lucky and/or he was goofing around...
in general i had no chance of winning, but ultimately he was bored (going for "wow" shots, vs. the "right" shot), and let me have a couple games

presuming i'm a 4.25 and he's a 5.25, i think my rating would go up, by alot

similarly i've heard 5.0 guys complain (on ttw) about the "plus" leagues, because it affects their ratings if they happen to play 4.5's... (ignoring the 4.49 playing the 4.51), it's often hard to beat someone 0,0 even if you're "supposed" to.

even when i play 3.5's, while they typically have no chance of winning (eg. if i kick it to their bh i'll always get an UFE or short ball), i'll inevitably give away a game or 2... either due to overconfidence, trying something new, lack of focus, them treeing, etc...

my $0.02

so i guess in summary:
* if you want to inflate your rating, play up... by 2 levels if you can
* if you want an accurate rating, play your level

discuss!

Hey our name is similar ;P

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Only 4.5s can play up 2 levels by playing 5.0+. No one else can. As a 4.0, I cannot play 5.0+.

We don't have 4.5+ where I'm at.

lol, you're going out of your way to avoid my point, aren't you
learned a new word today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

 

[RenoTennisAddict]

I wouldn't use tls. I would recommend tennisrecord.com

tennisrecord.com does make a whole lot of sense.....and it looks like i am at the top of 3.5 right now sitting at 3.49....guess I will stay put for next year. It does look like my rating got hurt a little because of the couple close losses at the 3.5 district championship. was at 3.54 before that lol....

 

[OnTheLine]

Since he can't solicit I will tell you that schmke would be more than happy to run a report for you for a small fee.

I have thought about it, but that is almost like opening your Christmas present early .... There is this weird part of me that wants to be surprised!

 

[schmke]

I have thought about it, but that is almost like opening your Christmas present early .... There is this weird part of me that wants to be surprised!

There is still time for you to come around ;-)

 

[GrassCourtFan]

Overall based on your record, it seems like you're right on the cusp - if you went undefeated in in 3.5, but 1-8 in 4.0, then you probably could legitimately fit in either level. Like, someone who went 1-8 and was a computer-rated 4.0 could plausibly be bumped down and nobody would be surprised, but someone with your undefeated record in 3.5 could obviously be bumped up.

At this point I don't think you should worry too much about what TLS or tennisRecord say - they don't do exactly the same thing as USTA does, and you're pretty clearly so close to the border that the details are going to matter, it'll matter exactly how good the 4.0 and 3.5 players you beat and what the scores were and who the partners were. And of course the USTA always might do a slight global adjustment up or down, in which case that would determine where you end up.

I bet that if you're not bumped you could appeal up if you wanted, but if you are bumped you could appeal down if you wanted.