Can Someone be Considered the GOAT if needs on court Coaching?

True champions can receive coaching on court

  • NO, that's cheating and not accepted. Abide by the rules

    Votes: 18 81.8%
  • Sure, why not. It's all about winning no matter how

    Votes: 4 18.2%

  • Total voters
    22

DoubleDeuce

Hall of Fame
I think this is a legitimate question to ask. Problem solving is a huge part of the game in tennis and all the great champions possess this.

My answer would be no, what do you think?
 
I think this is a legitimate question to ask. Problem solving is a huge part of the game in tennis and all the great champions possess this.

My answer would be no, what do you think?
Gee it was hard to figure out what your vote would be by the unbiased poll options you gave.
 

DoubleDeuce

Hall of Fame
Look Dark Knight, its all documented and video taped numerous times. Just accept the facts. Coaching on court is happening and some players including yours have admitted to it. If you need source let me know. But just cut the BS man, there is no bias here.
 
Look Dark Knight, its all documented and video taped numerous times. Just accept the facts. Coaching on court is happening and some players including yours have admitted to it. If you need source let me know. But just cut the BS man, there is no bias here.
Oh I don't disagree...

It's happening and it's allowed to happen. Who's fault is that?

If everyone is doing it then why not do it?

Do you drive at 55 mph? Or do you never go above the speed limit a little?

Do you even know what the punishment is for coaching? It's just a warning....second time you get a second warning ....that's all warwinka even wanted.

If its insane over the top coaching well then the coach can be relocated or kicked out.....if the coach doesn't stop even after that you can get fined or a point penalty.......

But the bottom line is that a bit of coaching is tolerated by the ATP .....no different than going 65 mph.

Until officials enforce the rules it will go on and should go on ....why should one player be allowed to be coached while the other is not?

But the way you phrased the poll options were slanted.
 
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chicagodude

Professional
I would've voted a third option: I don't really care

Why coaching is not allowed has always been beyond me. Boxing, golf (I consider a caddy a coach), all teamsports of course, all have coaching. Don't know about e.g. badminton and tabletennis.

Why is coaching during matches allowed in the DC?

As far as I'm concerned, coaching during matches might as well be allowed.

That said, right now it's against the rules, so they should abide by them and umpires should enforce them.
 

DoubleDeuce

Hall of Fame
Oh I don't disagree...

It's happening and it's allowed to happen. Who's fault is that?

If everyone is doing it then why not do it?

Do you drive at 65 mph? Or do you never go above the speed limit a little?

Do you even know what the punishment is for coaching? It's just a warning....second time second warning ....that's all warwinka even wanted.

If its insane over the top coaching well then the coach can be relocated or kicked out.....if the coach doesn't stop even after that you can get fined or a point penalty.......

Bit the bottom line is that a bit of coaching is tolerated by the ATP .....no different than going 65 mph.

Until officials enforce the rules it will go on and should go on ....why should one player allowed to be coached while the other is not?
It's not allowed to happen, that's what you want to make yourself believed, finding a way out: If it's not caught or penalized then it's ok. No it's not ok, because it's against the rules. If it was allowed then there wouldnt be rules against it.
Be honest and just accept it instead of making ridiculous excuses man, you know better.
 
It's not allowed to happen, that's what you want to make yourself believed, finding a way out: If it's not caught or penalized then it's ok. No it's not ok, because it's against the rules. If it was allowed then there wouldnt be rules against it.
Be honest and just accept it instead of making ridiculous excuses man, you know better.
Incorrect it is allowed to happen . I'll post an article on it in a minute.

Notably all warwinka wanted was a second warning.
 

sunof tennis

Professional
Of course since it is a rule, it should not occur. But making a stupid poll is not going to change whether the rule is enforced or not.
Frankly, the thing that upsets me the most is Uncle Toni blatantly thumbing his nose at the rule. Not having met either of them personally it is not for me to judge, but the strong sense I get is that Rafa is a good guy, Toni, on the other hand....
 
Why ATP Should Either Enforce or Get Rid of Sideline Coaching Ban

Jeremy
Eckstein
Jul. 24, 2013


Rafael Nadal’s lifetime coach, his Uncle Toni, recently admitted that he has talked to his nephew during matches.

The problem is that on-court coaching is not allowed on the ATP tour. Coach Nadal said, via Matt Cronin for Tennis.com, “I talk to Rafa during matches. I know that it’s not allowed but I think that at my age I have nothing to hide.”

The ATP response? Well, it’s been more than a week and the crickets are quietly chirping.

Will this embolden all coaches to test the boundaries of a rule that has rarely been enforced or punished?

The issue is heating up and the ATP cannot afford to look away. Eventually, a Grand Slam title or big match will be decided when one superstar blatantly benefits from on-court coaching.

It could generate very negative publicity and cause the sports world to question the integrity of ATP tennis.

The rule against on-court coaching is a crumbling facade that may no longer protect its peaceful existence upon middle ground. It’s time for the ATP to either enforce the ban on coaching with severe fines and suspensions, or to eliminate the coaching ban altogether.

 

What Should the ATP Do About On-Court Coaching?

Coaching and strategy has evolved with the rapid increase of global information and competitive sports. No stone will be left unturned for players to gain an edge in their training with collaborations of coaches, video study and programmed strategies.

It spills out onto matches in all sorts of forms that all but dance around the chair umpire.

The players no longer isolate themselves and focus on the task at hand. How often do they glance at their box, pump their fist, and direct their eyes and ears to all manners of support?

How much can one chair umpire monitor when there are other forms of gamesmanship?

There are plenty of ways for players to change momentum, including trainers and medical timeouts, bathroom breaks, signals with coaches, speaking in foreign languages and deciding on replay challenges. If weather delays the match, the coaches and players huddle up.

 

The Traditionalist View

We are proud that our sport requires its athletes to coach themselves during the heat of their matches.

Players must make adjustments and think through their difficulties without outside coaching. This requires greater on-court intelligence and mental strength, qualities that have long been trademarks of its greatest champions.

Young Roger Federer won three Grand Slams in 2004 without a coach.

A. Messerschmidt/Getty Images
Talented players like Tomas Berdych often suffer meltdowns late in big matches. Why should he receive extra support to reinforce his strategy and find confidence in his mental game?

If tennis continues to ignore this rule, what’s to stop it from becoming like boxing or any other team sport? Should it sacrifice artistry and intelligence for sabermetrics and therapists?

Do we open the aisles for coaches to march down to the sidelines with iPads, clipboards, towels and encouraging relaxation tips from Zen philosophers?

Undoubtedly, there would be another coach in the video room, studying and directing the adjustments that are relayed back to the player.

If the wall comes down, men’s tennis will lose some of its connection to prior generations of great champions. It could prove as disastrous as dyeing red clay in Madrid.

 

The Progressivist View

Look, if the WTA, Davis Cup and just about every other sport on the planet allow on-site coaching, why should tennis still peck away with typewriters and listen to phonographs?

There’s no way to stop the increasing new ways to signal to players or relay supportive information. Why fight progress?

Information is everywhere, and ultimately the best player should be able to gather and use every available resource. They are already doing it for the other 99% of their lives anyway.

Clive Rose/Getty Images
Besides, it seems a shame to watch talented players like Berdych and Jo-Wilfried Tsonga waste away their potential when they could have received a career boost.

How many other players could turn around crushing defeats into true competitive matches? Would this not bring about greater parity in the ATP? This should be a test of tennis athletes, not chess.

Really, this doesn’t have to be a wholesale change. Few people notice or care about hand signals or players looking up at their box. It’s not going to overturn the complexities of strategy and match execution.

Legalize on-court coaching and all players can derive its advantages without the distractions of pretending to uphold a rule that the chair umpire is reluctant to monitor.

 In the end, we can agree on one thing: If the ATP does not address this one way or the other, the controversy will continue to seethe under the surface of men’s tennis.

Silence can be a loud answer.



 
 
Of course since it is a rule, it should not occur. But making a stupid poll is not going to change whether the rule is enforced or not.
Frankly, the thing that upsets me the most is Uncle Toni blatantly thumbing his nose at the rule. Not having met either of them personally it is not for me to judge, but the strong sense I get is that Rafa is a good guy, Toni, on the other hand....
But as the article says its a rule that can't really be enforced.....why fight progress?
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Nadal is not cheating, Toni is. And Nadal does not need the coaching. He has scolded Toni for this, but Toni won't listen.
 

RF20Lennon

Legend
Nadal is only partly to blame and his blame is not taking his coach out. He doesn't NEED him anymore! Nadal is man enough to take care of things. Toni really controls him.
 

mp4193

New User
well mirka was screaming at roger to move his feet at wim '08..does that count as coaching or does fed gets a pass because of his "beautiful game"??

racquet abuse is also against the rule.. does fed get a pass on this also due to his "awesome one hand backhand" or are rules just to be applied to rafa?

absuing opponets during a game is also against the rules...that murray was abused during AO semis must also be okay since it was the 'ballerina' at work??
 
M

monfed

Guest
Oh so it's Toni who's cheating, Nadkads taking straw clutching to a whole new level. :lol:

OP, good poll. If Nadal needs help to win which he clearly does then he simply isn't great so nope he can't be included in the GOAT debate, but that's not the ONLY reason he isn't in contention, there are plenty others.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

dpli2010

Semi-Pro
Why ATP Should Either Enforce or Get Rid of Sideline Coaching Ban

Jeremy
Eckstein
Jul. 24, 2013


Rafael Nadal’s lifetime coach, his Uncle Toni, recently admitted that he has talked to his nephew during matches.

The problem is that on-court coaching is not allowed on the ATP tour. Coach Nadal said, via Matt Cronin for Tennis.com, “I talk to Rafa during matches. I know that it’s not allowed but I think that at my age I have nothing to hide.”

The ATP response? Well, it’s been more than a week and the crickets are quietly chirping.

Will this embolden all coaches to test the boundaries of a rule that has rarely been enforced or punished?

The issue is heating up and the ATP cannot afford to look away. Eventually, a Grand Slam title or big match will be decided when one superstar blatantly benefits from on-court coaching.

It could generate very negative publicity and cause the sports world to question the integrity of ATP tennis.

The rule against on-court coaching is a crumbling facade that may no longer protect its peaceful existence upon middle ground. It’s time for the ATP to either enforce the ban on coaching with severe fines and suspensions, or to eliminate the coaching ban altogether.

 

What Should the ATP Do About On-Court Coaching?

Coaching and strategy has evolved with the rapid increase of global information and competitive sports. No stone will be left unturned for players to gain an edge in their training with collaborations of coaches, video study and programmed strategies.

It spills out onto matches in all sorts of forms that all but dance around the chair umpire.

The players no longer isolate themselves and focus on the task at hand. How often do they glance at their box, pump their fist, and direct their eyes and ears to all manners of support?

How much can one chair umpire monitor when there are other forms of gamesmanship?

There are plenty of ways for players to change momentum, including trainers and medical timeouts, bathroom breaks, signals with coaches, speaking in foreign languages and deciding on replay challenges. If weather delays the match, the coaches and players huddle up.

 

The Traditionalist View

We are proud that our sport requires its athletes to coach themselves during the heat of their matches.

Players must make adjustments and think through their difficulties without outside coaching. This requires greater on-court intelligence and mental strength, qualities that have long been trademarks of its greatest champions.

Young Roger Federer won three Grand Slams in 2004 without a coach.

A. Messerschmidt/Getty Images
Talented players like Tomas Berdych often suffer meltdowns late in big matches. Why should he receive extra support to reinforce his strategy and find confidence in his mental game?

If tennis continues to ignore this rule, what’s to stop it from becoming like boxing or any other team sport? Should it sacrifice artistry and intelligence for sabermetrics and therapists?

Do we open the aisles for coaches to march down to the sidelines with iPads, clipboards, towels and encouraging relaxation tips from Zen philosophers?

Undoubtedly, there would be another coach in the video room, studying and directing the adjustments that are relayed back to the player.

If the wall comes down, men’s tennis will lose some of its connection to prior generations of great champions. It could prove as disastrous as dyeing red clay in Madrid.

 

The Progressivist View

Look, if the WTA, Davis Cup and just about every other sport on the planet allow on-site coaching, why should tennis still peck away with typewriters and listen to phonographs?

There’s no way to stop the increasing new ways to signal to players or relay supportive information. Why fight progress?

Information is everywhere, and ultimately the best player should be able to gather and use every available resource. They are already doing it for the other 99% of their lives anyway.

Clive Rose/Getty Images
Besides, it seems a shame to watch talented players like Berdych and Jo-Wilfried Tsonga waste away their potential when they could have received a career boost.

How many other players could turn around crushing defeats into true competitive matches? Would this not bring about greater parity in the ATP? This should be a test of tennis athletes, not chess.

Really, this doesn’t have to be a wholesale change. Few people notice or care about hand signals or players looking up at their box. It’s not going to overturn the complexities of strategy and match execution.

Legalize on-court coaching and all players can derive its advantages without the distractions of pretending to uphold a rule that the chair umpire is reluctant to monitor.

 In the end, we can agree on one thing: If the ATP does not address this one way or the other, the controversy will continue to seethe under the surface of men’s tennis.

Silence can be a loud answer.



 
Nice post...
 

chicagodude

Professional
Why ATP Should Either Enforce or Get Rid of Sideline Coaching Ban

Jeremy
Eckstein
Jul. 24, 2013


Rafael Nadal’s lifetime coach, his Uncle Toni, recently admitted that he has talked to his nephew during matches.

The problem is that on-court coaching is not allowed on the ATP tour. Coach Nadal said, via Matt Cronin for Tennis.com, “I talk to Rafa during matches. I know that it’s not allowed but I think that at my age I have nothing to hide.”

The ATP response? Well, it’s been more than a week and the crickets are quietly chirping.

Will this embolden all coaches to test the boundaries of a rule that has rarely been enforced or punished?

The issue is heating up and the ATP cannot afford to look away. Eventually, a Grand Slam title or big match will be decided when one superstar blatantly benefits from on-court coaching.

It could generate very negative publicity and cause the sports world to question the integrity of ATP tennis.

The rule against on-court coaching is a crumbling facade that may no longer protect its peaceful existence upon middle ground. It’s time for the ATP to either enforce the ban on coaching with severe fines and suspensions, or to eliminate the coaching ban altogether.

 

What Should the ATP Do About On-Court Coaching?

Coaching and strategy has evolved with the rapid increase of global information and competitive sports. No stone will be left unturned for players to gain an edge in their training with collaborations of coaches, video study and programmed strategies.

It spills out onto matches in all sorts of forms that all but dance around the chair umpire.

The players no longer isolate themselves and focus on the task at hand. How often do they glance at their box, pump their fist, and direct their eyes and ears to all manners of support?

How much can one chair umpire monitor when there are other forms of gamesmanship?

There are plenty of ways for players to change momentum, including trainers and medical timeouts, bathroom breaks, signals with coaches, speaking in foreign languages and deciding on replay challenges. If weather delays the match, the coaches and players huddle up.

 

The Traditionalist View

We are proud that our sport requires its athletes to coach themselves during the heat of their matches.

Players must make adjustments and think through their difficulties without outside coaching. This requires greater on-court intelligence and mental strength, qualities that have long been trademarks of its greatest champions.

Young Roger Federer won three Grand Slams in 2004 without a coach.

A. Messerschmidt/Getty Images
Talented players like Tomas Berdych often suffer meltdowns late in big matches. Why should he receive extra support to reinforce his strategy and find confidence in his mental game?

If tennis continues to ignore this rule, what’s to stop it from becoming like boxing or any other team sport? Should it sacrifice artistry and intelligence for sabermetrics and therapists?

Do we open the aisles for coaches to march down to the sidelines with iPads, clipboards, towels and encouraging relaxation tips from Zen philosophers?

Undoubtedly, there would be another coach in the video room, studying and directing the adjustments that are relayed back to the player.

If the wall comes down, men’s tennis will lose some of its connection to prior generations of great champions. It could prove as disastrous as dyeing red clay in Madrid.

 

The Progressivist View

Look, if the WTA, Davis Cup and just about every other sport on the planet allow on-site coaching, why should tennis still peck away with typewriters and listen to phonographs?

There’s no way to stop the increasing new ways to signal to players or relay supportive information. Why fight progress?

Information is everywhere, and ultimately the best player should be able to gather and use every available resource. They are already doing it for the other 99% of their lives anyway.

Clive Rose/Getty Images
Besides, it seems a shame to watch talented players like Berdych and Jo-Wilfried Tsonga waste away their potential when they could have received a career boost.

How many other players could turn around crushing defeats into true competitive matches? Would this not bring about greater parity in the ATP? This should be a test of tennis athletes, not chess.

Really, this doesn’t have to be a wholesale change. Few people notice or care about hand signals or players looking up at their box. It’s not going to overturn the complexities of strategy and match execution.

Legalize on-court coaching and all players can derive its advantages without the distractions of pretending to uphold a rule that the chair umpire is reluctant to monitor.

 In the end, we can agree on one thing: If the ATP does not address this one way or the other, the controversy will continue to seethe under the surface of men’s tennis.

Silence can be a loud answer.

 
Nice article, and pretty spot on.

Either enforce it or get rid of the no-coaching rule.

I'm in favor of allowing it, especially since it's almost impossible to enforce.
Players look up at their box all the time, it's incredibly easy to use almost unnoticeable signs to do some covert coaching.
Certain shout-outs could have a particular meaning that player and coach have agreed upon, who knows?

ALso, are cell phones allowed on-court? I'm not sure, but if they aare, it's even easier for a player to take quick glances at received txt messages with pointers.

Anyway, they need to do something about it. Enforce it or get rid of it.

A middle-ground that might be possible is to not allow coaches physically present on the court, but allow sign language and/or txt messages (now that I wrote it, it sounds silly)
 
Nice article, and pretty spot on.

Either enforce it or get rid of the no-coaching rule.

I'm in favor of allowing it, especially since it's almost impossible to enforce.
Players look up at their box all the time, it's incredibly easy to use almost unnoticeable signs to do some covert coaching.
Certain shout-outs could have a particular meaning that player and coach have agreed upon, who knows?

ALso, are cell phones allowed on-court? I'm not sure, but if they aare, it's even easier for a player to take quick glances at received txt messages with pointers.

Anyway, they need to do something about it. Enforce it or get rid of it.

A middle-ground that might be possible is to not allow coaches physically present on the court, but allow sign language and/or txt messages (now that I wrote it, it sounds silly)
Chicago dude,

I agree with you 100 percent ......

But more importantly .... I LOVE Chicago!!!!

Now that's a place that makes the Fedal debates here look like child's play .

The debate over the greatest pizza ....Eduardo's? Gino's? Etc etc.....

Lets not forget portillos Vienna beefs and ed debevics :).

I LOVE CHICAGO :)
 
I think this is a legitimate question to ask. Problem solving is a huge part of the game in tennis and all the great champions possess this.
Not all......

Now it's true Nadal did solve Joker .....but Fed could not solve Nadal.

So what does that say about Fed according to your own criteria ?
 

BrooklynNY

Hall of Fame
I actually think that they should strictly enforce the rule.

But on the other hand I think that if they aren't going to enforce it, I'm all for players pushing the limits, it's not their job to call the lines or umpire the match.

If you bring up sportsmanship, you might have a point, but again it wouldn't happen as much or as blatantly obviousas it is if there was strict enforcement, like anything in life
 
I actually think that they should strictly enforce the rule.

But on the other hand I think that if they aren't going to enforce it, I'm all for players pushing the limits, it's not their job to call the lines or umpire the match.

If you bring up sportsmanship, you might have a point, but again it wouldn't happen as much or as blatantly obviousas it is if there was strict enforcement, like anything in life
Hey Brooklyn,

Well the rule is "enforced"....it's just not considered a major offense. The worst punishment I have seen is a $2,000 fine or a penalty point....

In fact the rules don't even allow more than a $5,000 fine.

Now on to much more pressing matters.....ever been to Peter Lugars for some shlag?
 

Wynter

Legend
But as the article says its a rule that can't really be enforced.....why fight progress?
If a player can't really solve their own problems on court, like Laver, Sampras etc did, should they be considered a GOAT, the mental aspect is the most important aspect of tennis (can be argued.)
 
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