Can UTR be trusted to operate and accurate system?

[Tennis2349]

Son is a 12 yr old junior player.

While I do see the utility of utr , I see issues with how important it is becoming.

A. Kids defeating themselves before playing if opponent has a higher utr.
B. Kids changing game style to win as many games as possible. Close win is still a “loss” if they expect to win by more. Tennis is a game of sets, not points or games. But utr measures games.
C. Kids quitting matches if losing.
D. Utr obviously important before college
E. Utr dictates who plays who at academies and what group they are in. Or court they are on.

But upon spending a couple hours looking at various profiles, this is what I have found.

A. Kids who have not even played for 6 months go up an entire point! I guess the theory is the kids they beat before inproved, so they just have improved as well? 1 point in 6 months is a large improvement for not even playing.

B. One kid supposedly played 89 matches in one summer, against higher utr players and somehow beat most of them. When clicking on his opponents they were all 7 utr’s, but just started playing a week prior? So obviously someone found a way to hack the system.

C. My son won a level 5 tournament, beat several higher utr’s , but his utr didn’t move! The results are accurate on the html version of utr, but non existent on the app version. The kids he beat went up at the same rate he did. How do we even know which reporting system is accurate if they both show different results?

I guess my question is that the USTA atleast has a ranking system that can be gamed in ways, but it is 100 percent accurate.

Utr is a secret formula nobody knows, and just by checking a few profiles there are missing results, inaccuracies, and a system in which kids raise an entire point for not even competing at all. The same rate a kid rises for playing well every two weeks

So much stock is put into this number, and it mentally affects many of these kids, and their playing style, but it appears to be riddled with dozens of mistakes just by checking a few profiles.

 

[travlerajm]

Son is a 12 yr old junior player.

While I do see the utility of utr , I see issues with how important it is becoming.

A. Kids defeating themselves before playing if opponent has a higher utr.
B. Kids changing game style to win as many games as possible. Close win is still a “loss” if they expect to win by more. Tennis is a game of sets, not points or games. But utr measures games.
C. Kids quitting matches if losing.
D. Utr obviously important before college
E. Utr dictates who plays who at academies and what group they are in. Or court they are on.

But upon spending a couple hours looking at various profiles, this is what I have found.

A. Kids who have not even played for 6 months go up an entire point! I guess the theory is the kids they beat before inproved, so they just have improved as well? 1 point in 6 months is a large improvement for not even playing.

B. One kid supposedly played 89 matches in one summer, against higher utr players and somehow beat most of them. When clicking on his opponents they were all 7 utr’s, but just started playing a week prior? So obviously someone found a way to hack the system.

C. My son won a level 5 tournament, beat several higher utr’s , but his utr didn’t move! The results are accurate on the html version of utr, but non existent on the app version. The tournament was a month ago, and more recent results are on both the app and web version. The kids he beat went up at the same rate he did. How do we even know which reporting system is accurate if they both show different results?

I guess my question is that the USTA atleast has a ranking system that can be gamed in ways, but it is 100 percent accurate.

Utr is a secret formula nobody knows, and just by checking a few profiles there are missing results, inaccuracies, and a system in which kids raise an entire point for not even competing at all. The same rate a kid rises for playing well every two weeks

So much stock is put into this number, and it mentally affects many of these kids, and their playing style, but it appears to be riddled with dozens of mistakes just by checking a few profiles.

For every kid who’s rating climbs a UTR point during 6 months of inactivity, they have to find a hapless adult to decay a UTR point to make sure the system stays in balance without imploding.

 

[nyta2]

Son is a 12 yr old junior player.

While I do see the utility of utr , I see issues with how important it is becoming.

A. Kids defeating themselves before playing if opponent has a higher utr.
B. Kids changing game style to win as many games as possible. Close win is still a “loss” if they expect to win by more. Tennis is a game of sets, not points or games. But utr measures games.
C. Kids quitting matches if losing.
D. Utr obviously important before college
E. Utr dictates who plays who at academies and what group they are in. Or court they are on.

But upon spending a couple hours looking at various profiles, this is what I have found.

A. Kids who have not even played for 6 months go up an entire point! I guess the theory is the kids they beat before inproved, so they just have improved as well? 1 point in 6 months is a large improvement for not even playing.

B. One kid supposedly played 89 matches in one summer, against higher utr players and somehow beat most of them. When clicking on his opponents they were all 7 utr’s, but just started playing a week prior? So obviously someone found a way to hack the system.

C. My son won a level 5 tournament, beat several higher utr’s , but his utr didn’t move! The results are accurate on the html version of utr, but non existent on the app version. The kids he beat went up at the same rate he did. How do we even know which reporting system is accurate if they both show different results?

I guess my question is that the USTA atleast has a ranking system that can be gamed in ways, but it is 100 percent accurate.

Utr is a secret formula nobody knows, and just by checking a few profiles there are missing results, inaccuracies, and a system in which kids raise an entire point for not even competing at all. The same rate a kid rises for playing well every two weeks

So much stock is put into this number, and it mentally affects many of these kids, and their playing style, but it appears to be riddled with dozens of mistakes just by checking a few profiles.

imo the issue with utr, is not utr... it's the coaching (or lack of?) behind the players that are stressing over utr...
utr is like long term investments... only check on it every so often... not something you should be monitoring daily (as a day trader/someone obsessed with utr - might, )... expectation is that they both will go up and down with regularity, but if depositing regularly (either $ or practice), overall, over time, both should be going up...

so it's important for someone (parent/coach/etc...) to remind the kid, that the tactics&strategies used, is as important as execution... even go so far as "punishing them" if they don't execute <fill in whatever tactic they are working on - eg. if you don't s&v every time you're up 40-love, or 40-15, you have to <eg. run laps/do pushups/etc...>>

side note, it's also why we have a bulge of ntrp3.5 bunters/moonballers that never get better... ie. they never want to venture outside their comfort zone, to practice the tools they need to progress (eg. s&v, hitting on the rise, learning a spin serve, etc...)

i have a 3.0 student of mine that brags about how they won some 3.0 usta match, and i always have to realign recenter their focus to winning "the right way" with tools that will allow them to win at the ntrp4.0+ level (ie. who cares about bunting their way to victory with bad technique)

 

[travlerajm]

side note, it's also why we have a bulge of ntrp3.5 bunters/moonballers that never get better... i

i have a 3.0 student of mine that brags about how they won some 3.0 usta match

don’t forget about the ntrp4.5 bunter/moonballers. We keep getting older but rarely get better.

 

[nyta2]

don’t forget about the ntrp4.5 bunter/moonballers. We keep getting older but rarely get better.

i don't run into "pure" bunters/moonballers much/ever in the 4.5 level

by "bunter" i mean one that literally only has the technique to block (eg. can't stroke it with topspin)... they are often slicers too.
by 4.5, the "pure 3.5 moonballer" usually has picked up other weapons in their quiver, and can stroke the ball, make passing shots, take advantage of short balls and come to net, etc... moonballing might be their main rally shot (eg. high heavy & deep), but by 4.5 they definitely have other weapons

[edit]
just noticed the "we" where you're including yourself in this bucket... you do appear to have good precision & depth, variety of strokes, can hit passing shots, willingness to come to net, etc... so not a "pure" bunter/moonballer... those are just 2 arrows in your quiver.

[edit2]
i also am guessing, since you're including yourself in this bucket,... that you revel in folks calling you <fill in condescending tennis nickname> after you just double bageled them

 

[Tennis2349]

imo the issue with utr, is not utr... it's the coaching (or lack of?) behind the players that are stressing over utr...
utr is like long term investments... only check on it every so often... not something you should be monitoring daily (as a day trader/someone obsessed with utr - might, )... expectation is that they both will go up and down with regularity, but if depositing regularly (either $ or practice), overall, over time, both should be going up...

so it's important for someone (parent/coach/etc...) to remind the kid, that the tactics&strategies used, is as important as execution... even go so far as "punishing them" if they don't execute <fill in whatever tactic they are working on - eg. if you don't s&v every time you're up 40-love, or 40-15, you have to <eg. run laps/do pushups/etc...>>

side note, it's also why we have a bulge of ntrp3.5 bunters/moonballers that never get better... ie. they never want to venture outside their comfort zone, to practice the tools they need to progress (eg. s&v, hitting on the rise, learning a spin serve, etc...)

i have a 3.0 student of mine that brags about how they won some 3.0 usta match, and i always have to realign recenter their focus to winning "the right way" with tools that will allow them to win at the ntrp4.0+ level (ie. who cares about bunting their way to victory with bad technique)

Agree… especially for juniors making the right decisions is more important. At younger ages I already see many of the kids who were winning a lot when 10-11 turn 13 and they can’t win a match. They were chasing USTA points and playing the exact same way every weekend. (Just get the ball in, dink second serve) etc.

The kids already have phones and check the utr, check the utr of who they will play, and put peer pressure on themselves to have a higher utr than their friends.

I did email UTR as to why one tournament from a month ago was missing , and they said they were upgrading the system?, and importing matches might take a while.

It generally also seems to be a system of , if the people you played months ago went up , your utr goes up. (If you play or not). If those players do not go up, yours still will if you play well, but not as quickly.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

It's working pretty well for the kids headed for D1 or D2, some of them living at tennis academies or going to school at tennis academies That's pretty much the main goal of UTR.

 

[sureshs]

FAQ: UTR Rating Algorithm

Frequently Asked Questions I won my most recent match. What will happen to my UTR Rating? The algorithm focuses on percent of games won. If a player wins a higher percent of games than the algorithm’s expectation, their match rating goes up. L...

support.universaltennis.com

 

[Tennis2349]

It's working pretty well for the kids headed for D1 or D2, some of them living at tennis academies or going to school at tennis academies That's pretty

It's working pretty well for the kids headed for D1 or D2, some of them living at tennis academies or going to school at tennis academies That's pretty much the main goal of UTR.

Times are changing and if USTA and utr can’t consistently report and receive information the number isn’t that accurate. Kind of odd to miss an entire USTA tournament.

The Intercollegiate Tennis Association (ITA), the governing body and coaches association for college tennis, has today announced that it has appointed the International Tennis Federation (ITF) World Tennis Number (WTN) as the exclusive official rating of the ITA and college tennis

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Times are changing and if USTA and utr can’t consistently report and receive information the number isn’t that accurate. Kind of odd to miss an entire USTA tournament.

The Intercollegiate Tennis Association (ITA), the governing body and coaches association for college tennis, has today announced that it has appointed the International Tennis Federation (ITF) World Tennis Number (WTN) as the exclusive official rating of the ITA and college tennis

That "happened" in Jan 2023, https://wearecollegetennis.com/2023/01/05/wtn-named-official-rating-of-college-tennis/.

UTR is still the key if you want a scholarship.

 

[johnmccabe]

Son is a 12 yr old junior player.

While I do see the utility of utr , I see issues with how important it is becoming.

A. Kids defeating themselves before playing if opponent has a higher utr.
B. Kids changing game style to win as many games as possible. Close win is still a “loss” if they expect to win by more. Tennis is a game of sets, not points or games. But utr measures games.
C. Kids quitting matches if losing.
D. Utr obviously important before college
E. Utr dictates who plays who at academies and what group they are in. Or court they are on.

But upon spending a couple hours looking at various profiles, this is what I have found.

A. Kids who have not even played for 6 months go up an entire point! I guess the theory is the kids they beat before inproved, so they just have improved as well? 1 point in 6 months is a large improvement for not even playing.

B. One kid supposedly played 89 matches in one summer, against higher utr players and somehow beat most of them. When clicking on his opponents they were all 7 utr’s, but just started playing a week prior? So obviously someone found a way to hack the system.

C. My son won a level 5 tournament, beat several higher utr’s , but his utr didn’t move! The results are accurate on the html version of utr, but non existent on the app version. The kids he beat went up at the same rate he did. How do we even know which reporting system is accurate if they both show different results?

I guess my question is that the USTA atleast has a ranking system that can be gamed in ways, but it is 100 percent accurate.

Utr is a secret formula nobody knows, and just by checking a few profiles there are missing results, inaccuracies, and a system in which kids raise an entire point for not even competing at all. The same rate a kid rises for playing well every two weeks

So much stock is put into this number, and it mentally affects many of these kids, and their playing style, but it appears to be riddled with dozens of mistakes just by checking a few profiles.

one has to know its purpose in tennis. If you are lost in the journey, can't blame the rating system. With or without UTR, someone is going to get lost or distracted.

 

[Tennis2349]

That "happened" in Jan 2023, https://wearecollegetennis.com/2023/01/05/wtn-named-official-rating-of-college-tennis/.

UTR is still the key if you want a scholarship.

Yes. I understand that. That wasn’t my original question.

 

[Tennis2349]

one has to know its purpose in tennis. If you are lost in the journey, can't blame the rating system. With or without UTR, someone is going to get lost or distracted.

Yes. That’s part of my point. Junior Tennis has changed a lot since I played. Juniors obsessed with numbers/computer algorithm more than actually winning.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Yes. I understand that. That wasn’t my original question.

Ok, my point, sort of, is it still works really well for the level of kids that are headed to D1 and D2 schools, and that's the main goal of UTR.

 

[Tennis2349]

Ok, my point, sort of, is it still works really well for the level of kids that are headed to D1 and D2 schools, and that's the main goal of UTR.

That’s the main goal? Does it state that is the “main” goal?

UTR by Oracle​

Owned by Oracle, the Universal Tennis Rating (UTR) system is a global standard that provides a single, unifying scale for measuring the skill level of players, regardless of age, gender, geography, or similar grouping

 

[ErrorMachine]

I like the metaphor of a long term stock. Don’t stress the number and work on fundamentals and winning matches. Don’t get caught up in the opponent’s rating. That’s why we play the matches on the court and not on paper. Challenge yourself to beat the players at the higher level and hold your nerve to beat the lower ones who you “should.” If a player is getting psyched out by opponents rating then they don’t deserve the opportunity for the big leagues. Some may be able to game the system but they’ll get exposed against real competition.
Keep winning at higher level tournaments and the opportunity to play at the next level will present itself.
I’m not sure if utr has a goal. For me, it’s a tool to help determine skill level with the aim to create close, competitive matches. How it is used is up to the player and organizations.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

That’s the main goal? Does it state that is the “main” goal?

UTR by Oracle​

Owned by Oracle, the Universal Tennis Rating (UTR) system is a global standard that provides a single, unifying scale for measuring the skill level of players, regardless of age, gender, geography, or similar grouping

Feel free to google stuff, but yes, it is the main goal if you know people who work with UTR and people within the college recruiting world including coaches, the rest is ancillary. Good luck with your child, hopefully UTR comes around on his results.

 

[LOBALOT]

I think one needs to look at UTR and WTN, etc. with the same understanding of how they are calculated and view them with that understanding.

I don't want to address each of OP's thoughts because it was a bit much but yes style/match ups is part of tennis and simply because a kid doesn't play a recorded match doesn't mean he doesn't improve and then come out and beat someone. Yes, your UTR won't move a lot if your kid wins an entire tournament but the previous week the kid was crushed by much lower players the week, etc.

I think UTR is the best measurement tool for Junior tournament kids that travel a lot and very predictive of outcome.

Where it and other tools that measure players against players against players is lack of distribution / mix of players. A great example are adults. In adult USTA players tend to play each other and not wander from each other and their level. So therefore a 5 UTR in one area may be a 7 UTR in another. Likewise with WTN.

I am seeing some issues geographically with D3 college tennis as well where a team travels outside its geographic region and there is some unpredictability in match ups.

In general though for the tennis dad/mom with a an advanced junior kid who travels UTR and WTN are a great tool to predict outcomes.

 

[Tennis2349]

I think one needs to look at UTR and WTN, etc. with the same understanding of how they are calculated and view them with that understanding.

I don't want to address each of OP's thoughts because it was a bit much but yes style/match ups is part of tennis and simply because a kid doesn't play a recorded match doesn't mean he doesn't improve and then come out and beat someone. Yes, your UTR won't move a lot if your kid wins an entire tournament but the previous week the kid was crushed by much lower players the week, etc.

I think UTR is the best measurement tool for Junior tournament kids that travel a lot and very predictive of outcome.

Where it and other tools that measure players against players against players is lack of distribution / mix of players. A great example are adults. In adult USTA players tend to play each other and not wander from each other and their level. So therefore a 5 UTR in one area may be a 7 UTR in another. Likewise with WTN.

I am seeing some issues geographically with D3 college tennis as well where a team travels outside its geographic region and there is some unpredictability in match ups.

In general though for the tennis dad/mom with a an advanced junior kid who travels UTR and WTN are a great tool to predict outcomes.

I am trying to compare it to junior tennis when I played. You wouldn’t know who would be in the tournament unless you actually saw the draw in person, day of the tournament. And you had one goal. To win the tournament. Nobody had a number next to their name saying they are supposed to win.

Colleges still had ways to find the best players. They didn’t seem to need utr.

I wonder how much that affects outcomes in itself. When kids see they are a 6 playing a 7, the sentiment seems to be “well I got 6 games. My utr might go up”. They already self defeated. Even if just a little in the back of their mind, the strategy changes, and many times the belief they can win isn’t there. Tennis is largely mental. If you start a match knowing you should lose, I am willing to bet that has an effect on the outcome.

Also see so many “retirements” in all
Of these tournaments, usually by a kid trying to protect his utr when he feels he might lose to a lower utr. Back in the day it would be unheard of.

 

[Tennis2349]

Feel free to google stuff, but yes, it is the main goal if you know people who work with UTR and people within the college recruiting world including coaches, the rest is ancillary. Good luck with your child, hopefully UTR comes around on his results.

Thanks. I guess I thought the main goal of something like utr would be to make a profit.

No doubt coaches use it, but it seems like college coaches were always finding the best players before it.

 

[LOBALOT]

I am trying to compare it to junior tennis when I played. You wouldn’t know who would be in the tournament unless you actually saw the draw in person, day of the tournament. And you had one goal. To win the tournament. Nobody had a number next to their name saying they are supposed to win.

Colleges still had ways to find the best players. They didn’t seem to need utr.

I wonder how much that affects outcomes in itself. When kids see they are a 6 playing a 7, the sentiment seems to be “well I got 6 games. My utr might go up”. They already self defeated. Even if just a little in the back of their mind, the strategy changes, and many times the belief they can win isn’t there. Tennis is largely mental. If you start a match knowing you should lose, I am willing to bet that has an effect on the outcome.

Also see so many “retirements” in all
Of these tournaments, usually by a kid trying to protect his utr when he feels he might lose to a lower utr. Back in the day it would be unheard of.

For sure it impacts kids and their play. It is up to their parents and coaches to tell them to ignore it.

UTR though is a great tool to evaluate kids for college as tournament kids that are into tennis travel all over and compete against each other.

I saw defaults when my kid was a junior but those were in the minority and those were the goofball kids and their parents that tried to game the system and everyone saw through that including the college coaches. They are the ones that ended up playing club at a big school because they attempted to game the system, thought they were better than all the other kids, and in the end there were no offers for them and lacking that reached out to tennis recruiting and had their profile pulled in shame when they were approaching the end of their senior year.

 

[LOBALOT]

Thanks. I guess I thought the main goal of something like utr would be to make a profit.

No doubt coaches use it, but it seems like college coaches were always finding the best players before it.

It is to make a profit.

Coaches did use other measures and still do today. It is just another measure just like a kids attitude, their parents, how they perform on the court, character, etc.

I think the parent teaching their kids to game the system or making excuses for their kids lack of success or UTR shortcomings is another measure.

 

[Tennis2349]

It is to make a profit.

Coaches did use other measures and still do today. It is just another measure just like a kids attitude, their parents, how they perform on the court, character, etc.

I think the parent teaching their kids to game the system or making excuses for their kids lack of success or UTR shortcomings is another measure.

Maybe someone can explain this.

Player a: 6 utr player Plays 40 matches from October to February. He does well and improves. His utr goes up to 6.8. Which is almost a 1 point improvement in 5 months. We accept this as accurate, and the algorithm is doing its job. He is out there fighting for tough wins.

For a junior tennis player this is a very good rate of improvement.

Player b: does not play at all in 5 months and goes up a full point. From 6 to 7. Same amount of time. Actually goes up more without playing at all.

Both players are said to have 100 percent accuracy in their ratings.

What exactly is the algorithm doing in this instance? Just assuming the kid who hasn’t played is improving without proof, enough to go up an entire point in 5 months?

 

[travlerajm]

Maybe someone can explain this.

Player a: 6 utr player Plays 40 matches from October to February. He does well and improves. His utr goes up to 6.8. Which is almost a 1 point improvement in 5 months. We accept this as accurate, and the algorithm is doing its job. He is out there fighting for tough wins.

For a junior tennis player this is a very good rate of improvement.

Player b: does not play at all in 5 months and goes up a full point. From 6 to 7. Same amount of time. Actually goes up more without playing at all.

Both players are said to have 100 percent accuracy in their ratings.

What exactly is the algorithm doing in this instance? Just assuming the kid who hasn’t played is improving without proof, enough to go up an entire point in 5 months?

That’s how UTR works.

 

[Tennis2349]

That’s how UTR works.

Apparently so. So it was 100 percent accurate when it said the kid was a 6 utr! He was actively playing matches. So it must be accurate.

Then without playing it was 100 percent accurate as a 7 UTR 5 months later! Did his fitness improve? His serve? His game style? He didn’t even play at all so how would anyone know? How can a full point difference both be 100 percent accurate?

Is there another system similar? Does your USTA ranking just add points you didn’t win? Do you just move up in NTRP without playing? WtN doesn’t do that.

 

[LOBALOT]

Maybe someone can explain this.

Player a: 6 utr player Plays 40 matches from October to February. He does well and improves. His utr goes up to 6.8. Which is almost a 1 point improvement in 5 months. We accept this as accurate, and the algorithm is doing its job. He is out there fighting for tough wins.

For a junior tennis player this is a very good rate of improvement.

Player b: does not play at all in 5 months and goes up a full point. From 6 to 7. Same amount of time. Actually goes up more without playing at all.

Both players are said to have 100 percent accuracy in their ratings.

What exactly is the algorithm doing in this instance? Just assuming the kid who hasn’t played is improving without proof, enough to go up an entire point in 5 months?

Yes, I sure can explain how that happens to a kid who doesn't improve. You really need to read the algorithm which is similar to WTN.

How I am rated is based on who I have played recently and what level they are at with matches further in the past with less weight to a set limit where they are no longer of consequence. So if I beat some players and then stop and they improve yes my rating will go up. Similarly if I beat some players and they hit a losing streak my rating will go down without playing.

You are measured in life based on your past and it is used as a predictor from others as to how you will perform in the future. If it is your future job, getting loan from the bank, how you interact with people in the past, etc.

How else do you predict future performance?

 

[travlerajm]

Apparently so. So it was 100 percent accurate when it said the kid was a 6 utr! He was actively playing matches. So it must be accurate.

Then without playing it was 100 percent accurate as a 7 UTR 5 months later! Did his fitness improve? His serve? His game style? He didn’t even play at all so how would anyone know? How can a full point difference both be 100 percent accurate?

Is there another system similar? Does your USTA ranking just add points you didn’t win? Do you just move up in NTRP without playing? WtN doesn’t do that.

If you are 14 years old, with 100% UTR, you can take a year off and your UTR will go up. The stronger and younger your opponent strength in the time right before your sabbatical, the more your UTR will rise.

Also, the algorithm is notoriously overweighted for opponent strength. That is, it’s better to play someone really good who 1.5 UTR above you and lose with halfway competitive scoreline than it is to play someone 1.5 UTR below low and lose too many games.

So if you want to get ahead and get a college scholarship, you can go play a bunch of tougher tourneys, then sit out for 6 months and watch your UTR climb.

Conversely, if you are an adult, sitting out will hurt your UTR. The system has to balance out and offset the rising juniors, so it assumes that adult ratings decay when they stop posting rated matches.

 

[LOBALOT]

This whole discussion is frankly about a tennis dad who is frustrated as his kid is not improving and is looking at one measurement tool as an excuse for the lack of performance.

Confirm your kid truly has tennis in their heart and not just a dad pushing your kid. If your kid truly desires success in tennis and has a passion for it then help them improve and ignore the measures like UTR and what do you know..... The measures, like UTR, will reflect the improvement in performance.

Otherwise they will reflect the opposite.

 

[Tennis2349]

This whole discussion is frankly about a tennis dad who is frustrated as his kid is not improving and is looking at one measurement tool as an excuse for the lack of performance.

Confirm your kid truly has tennis in their heart and not just a dad pushing your kid. If your kid truly desires success in tennis and has a passion for it then help them improve and ignore the measures like UTR and what do you know..... The measures, like UTR, will reflect the improvement in performance.

Otherwise they will reflect the

You seem to be deflecting and assuming. It’s actually the opposite. And it’s not even about me. It’s about kids I know in programs either trying to get into the next level, or play at different academies chasing this magic number. And all the games they try to play to get a higher utr.

Stick to the topic.

So utr doesn’t assess YOUR improvement, it gives you credit for others improving.

It’s just a fact. It can’t be 100 percent accurate saying someone is a 6utr, they don’t play, then it is 100 percent accurate they are a 7 utr 5 months later.

 

[Tennis2349]

If you are 14 years old, with 100% UTR, you can take a year off and your UTR will go up. The stronger and younger your opponent strength in the time right before your sabbatical, the more your UTR will rise.

Also, the algorithm is notoriously overweighted for opponent strength. That is, it’s better to play someone really good who 1.5 UTR above you and lose with halfway competitive scoreline than it is to play someone 1.5 UTR below low and lose too many games.

So if you want to get ahead and get a college scholarship, you can go play a bunch of tougher tourneys, then sit out for 6 months and watch your UTR climb.

Conversely, if you are an adult, sitting out will hurt your UTR. The system has to balance out and offset the rising juniors, so it assumes that adult ratings decay when they stop posting rated matches.

this is what I have been noticing.

The kids who are busting ass and improving have their utr rise at the same rate as those who don’t compete at all.

 

[travlerajm]

this is what I have been noticing.

The kids who are busting ass and improving have their utr rise at the same rate as those who don’t compete at all.

That’s how TV talk show host Nick Kyrgios, who hasn’t touched a racquet in 11 months, has a higher current UTR with 100% reliability than current Top 10 pro Grigor Dimitrov.

 

[Tennis2349]

That’s how TV talk show host Nick Kyrgios, who hasn’t touched a racquet in 11 months, has a higher current UTR with 100% reliability than current Top 10 pro Grigor Dimitrov.

Exactly. That makes no sense.

I have a chess ElO. It doesn’t move at all unless I improve or win. It would be ridiculous for me to stop playing for 6 months and just take me from a 1000 to a 1300. Then say “well if you now lose to an 1100, that match is discounted.” Did I study chess during that time? How could both numbers be 100 percent accurate?

Anyway, if a parent says they don’t check their kids UTR they are lying. While coaches also say “utr doesn’t matter”, that’s exactly how they group kids in the program. I personally don’t have my son in a program as I feel it makes the kids worse, so I really don’t care about that.

In my son’s case, his utr is lower than it should be because he quit playing 12 and under a year early, and also steadily competed in under 14.

Spending an entire year beating up on 11 year olds who are improving would have boosted his number, but not his game. So time will tell. I am very happy with his actual improvement.

I was just pointing out that it feels a bit strange when somehow all juniors seem to go up without even playing. And go up substantially. Then on top of that to find out that sometimes USTA tournaments are just forgotten and not even included.

So of course there is an element of unfairness.

If 2 boys are a 6 utr, one plays 40 matches. In the heat. In the cold. Getting up at 5 am on weekends to go to tournament. Ups downs. Playing tough players with a lower utr. Etc. The effort pays off and you see the utr raise…

The other player doesn’t play at all and goes up at the same rate or even more within 6 months. Pretty much at the maximum rate because juniors rarely go up more than 2 utr per year. You start to wonder what the algorithm is even doing.

 

[heninfan99]

It is very accurate with active players but I wish there was a better way. I think one improvement is that when a kid loses and ducks playing the backdraw there should be a small utr point penalty to encourage kids to compete rather than the parent protecting their utr from further damage.

Even on the pro level, in all the matches I watched, the higher utr player won except when Arnaldi defeated Rublev. Small sample size of 6 matches but it was an interesting way to test.

I personally would rather have an Arnaldi type player on my college team than a Rublev despite the utr difference.

 

[Tennis2349]

It is very accurate with active players but I wish there was a better way. I think one improvement is that when a kid loses and ducks playing the backdraw there should be a small utr point penalty to encourage kids to compete rather than the parent protecting their utr from further damage.

Even on the pro level, in all the matches I watched, the higher utr player won except when Arnaldi defeated Rublev. Small sample size of 6 matches but it was an interesting way to test.

I personally would rather have an Arnaldi type player on my college team than a Rublev despite the utr difference.

Also the amount of retirements in the recent level 3 my son played in was interesting.So many healthy young kids kids are injured if they start to lose against a lower utr…. Which has the other effect of taking away a good result for the lower rated player. Kids crying after their match not because they lost but because of their utr!

They talk about the importance of visualization. It’s science.

But then players are told before the match starts they are supposed to lose.

 

[johnmccabe]

Exactly. That makes no sense.

I have a chess ElO. It doesn’t move at all unless I improve or win. It would be ridiculous for me to stop playing for 6 months and just take me from a 1000 to a 1300. Then say “well if you now lose to an 1100, that match is discounted.” Did I study chess during that time? How could both numbers be 100 percent accurate?

Anyway, if a parent says they don’t check their kids UTR they are lying. While coaches also say “utr doesn’t matter”, that’s exactly how they group kids in the program. I personally don’t have my son in a program as I feel it makes the kids worse, so I really don’t care about that.

In my son’s case, his utr is lower than it should be because he quit playing 12 and under a year early, and also steadily competed in under 14.

Spending an entire year beating up on 11 year olds who are improving would have boosted his number, but not his game. So time will tell. I am very happy with his actual improvement.

I was just pointing out that it feels a bit strange when somehow all juniors seem to go up without even playing. And go up substantially. Then on top of that to find out that sometimes USTA tournaments are just forgotten and not even included.

So of course there is an element of unfairness.

If 2 boys are a 6 utr, one plays 40 matches. In the heat. In the cold. Getting up at 5 am on weekends to go to tournament. Ups downs. Playing tough players with a lower utr. Etc. The effort pays off and you see the utr raise…

The other player doesn’t play at all and goes up at the same rate or even more within 6 months. Pretty much at the maximum rate because juniors rarely go up more than 2 utr per year. You start to wonder what the algorithm is even doing.

Good measurements on complicated things are hard to come by. what each player focuses on determines their long-term gain. Can someone game the system and cheat a little into scholarship, absolutely yes. We don't live in a perfect world and life is never completely fair.

 

[Tennis2349]

Good measurements on complicated things are hard to come by. what each player focuses on determines their long-term gain. Can someone game the system and cheat a little into scholarship, absolutely yes. We don't live in a perfect world and life is never completely fair.

I wouldn’t even say cheat into a scholarship, while that might be possible.

It’s more about the fact that this number changes the game so drastically , and nobody really knows what it encompasses

Parents are the most competitive ones, and they don’t want to risk their 6.5 utr kid who has been building this for 5 years and 100k to take a hit. So it’s withdraw, injury, specific tournament selection etc.

Utr states the best way to improve your number is to COMPETE OFTEN, which seems to be very inaccurate. Secondly it states it finds the players most recent form. Also inaccurate as it is heavily waited for the recent form of kids played in the past , which has nothing to do with the player being rated.

 

[gatorbait01]

You seem to be deflecting and assuming. It’s actually the opposite. And it’s not even about me. It’s about kids I know in programs either trying to get into the next level, or play at different academies chasing this magic number. And all the games they try to play to get a higher utr.

Stick to the topic.

So utr doesn’t assess YOUR improvement, it gives you credit for others improving.

It’s just a fact. It can’t be 100 percent accurate saying someone is a 6utr, they don’t play, then it is 100 percent accurate they are a 7 utr 5 months later.

This is absolutely a flaw of utr. Most kids involved in jr tennis will recognize someone who hasn't played and understand it isn't accurate. But, you're right, utr will say 100% verirfied. It isn't close to perfect.

 

[nyta2]

I wouldn’t even say cheat into a scholarship, while that might be possible.

at what level are they giving scholarships? i find that once boys are in the utr11-12+ range, it's decently aaccurate
below that, do they even given scholarships?

It’s more about the fact that this number changes the game so drastically , and nobody really knows what it encompasses

it's a recursive algo... it's the best approximation... probably within +/-1 of your approximate level

Parents are the most competitive ones, and they don’t want to risk their 6.5 utr kid who has been building this for 5 years and 100k to take a hit. So it’s withdraw, injury, specific tournament selection etc.

caring about utr6.5 is ridiculous... goal for boys appears to be utr10+... below that, they are still in "development" stage...

utr states the best way to improve your number is to COMPETE OFTEN, which seems to be very inaccurate.

idea being, compete more == improvement == more wins over time == improve utr...

Secondly it states it finds the players most recent form. Also inaccurate as it is heavily waited for the recent form of kids played in the past , which has nothing to do with the player being rated.

 

[nyta2]

It’s just a fact. It can’t be 100 percent accurate saying someone is a 6utr, they don’t play, then it is 100 percent accurate they are a 7 utr 5 months later.

it will self correct over time... it's just an algo that takes a long time to run...
it's not perfect... so shrug and move on...

my rating ~utr8, has fluctuated as low as utr5.xx to as high as utr11.xx (after getting 3 lucky games from a utr13.xx), but gets corrected as i play more matches...
similarly, one of my coaches had his rating drop to utr5.xx, but a couple matches, it went back up to utr10+

 

[travlerajm]

it will self correct over time... it's just an algo that takes a long time to run...
it's not perfect... so shrug and move on...

my rating ~utr8, has fluctuated as low as utr5.xx to as high as utr11.xx (after getting 3 lucky games from a utr13.xx), but gets corrected as i play more matches...
similarly, one of my coaches had his rating drop to utr5.xx, but a couple matches, it went back up to utr10+

I take these anecdotes as evidence that it’s a crummy algorithm.

Others seems to defend it, but I’m not sure why. The best defense of UTR I’ve heard is that “if you play a boatload of matches, then your rating will be sort of accurate.” We deserve better.

 

[nyta2]

I take these anecdotes as evidence that it’s a crummy algorithm.

Others seems to defend it, but I’m not sure why. The best defense of UTR I’ve heard is that “if you play a boatload of matches, then your rating will be sort of accurate.” We deserve better.

algo is probably straight forward... if anything i chalk it up to input errors that get "ironed out" over many matches... (or a bad match here or there)...
eg. scores being entered in reverse, or explicitly done incorrectly (eg. i lose 0-6, but enter 3-6 )

 

[johnmccabe]

We deserve better.

Yes, but I doubt we will ever get something much better. Tennis level is just a difficult thing to measure.

 

[travlerajm]

Yes, but I doubt we will ever get something much better. Tennis level is just a difficult thing to measure.

I consider TR to be significantly better, and TR is hardly even trying.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

at what level are they giving scholarships? i find that once boys are in the utr11-12+ range, it's decently aaccurate
below that, do they even given scholarships?

This is key, if the focus of the inaccuracy is really 6.5 UTR and that's not an example, the "play often" advice applies and the accuracy of UTR is high. UTR works pretty well in the realistic levels of recieving a scholarship. If 6.5 UTR was just a random example for discussion, ignore this post.

 

[nyta2]

I consider TR to be significantly better, and TR is hardly even trying.

TR is just usta rec? guessing it doesn't handle the volume of utr...
[edit] just looked up a utr11+ boy i know... >100 matches in a year... ntrp not calculated for him

 

[johnmccabe]

I consider TR to be significantly better, and TR is hardly even trying.

If college coaches use TR dynamic rating for scholarships, it's probably going to be the same situation.

 

[Tennis2349]

at what level are they giving scholarships? i find that once boys are in the utr11-12+ range, it's decently aaccurate
below that, do they even given scholarships?

it's a recursive algo... it's the best approximation... probably within +/-1 of your approximate level

caring about utr6.5 is ridiculous... goal for boys appears to be utr10+... below that, they are still in "development" stage...

idea being, compete more == improvement == more wins over time == improve utr...

No. 12 year olds aren’t getting scholarships.

It’s just an observation that something in the algorithm rewards players for not playing, or playing certain matches over others. 1 point difference at that age is large, and should take a good 6-8 months of hard work to obtain. Not just be arbitrarily projected.

If this were chess we wouldn’t say “well, he hasn’t played in 6 months, but must have improved. Let’s just raise his ElO and call
Him an international
Master now”

Why do we need projections when winning and losing is pretty clear in tennis. ?

 

[Tennis2349]

Also it seems wins over kids much higher are totally excluded if the difference is over 2 utr, and not given much weight if the win is around 1.5 utr higher. Which again makes little sense.

I am guessing the formula is designed for utr tournament play, where matches are weighted much more heavily if playing someone with the same utr. This doesn’t happen as often in USTA matches.

So if a player beats a few kids .5 to 1.5 utr higher, within a couple months his utr goes up .10 or 6.5 to 6,6.

The kid who didn’t play at all went up from 6.7 to 6.9.

Also a lot of talk about college scholarships… and no doubt a 12 is an excellent player. But didn’t coaches used to just see who wins the high school state championships and pick more or less the same players? Or the kids who won Kalamazoo/ orange bowl?

It was pretty obvious back in the day who was levels above everyone else. Don’t think anyone would confuse a 9 for a 12.

 

[LOBALOT]

this is what I have been noticing.

The kids who are busting ass and improving have their utr rise at the same rate as those who don’t compete at all.

Sorry, I have been busy with work but this is not correct in that the rating would be switched to unreliable. That is the difference.

The system goes back in time looking at past matches. The further back in time the matches are the less reliable those results are going to be as far as the predictive nature of the rating. Thus, it will switch to unreliable if you sit for a year and don't record actual match results. They assign a %age to the reliability.

I will address your other questions tomorrow when I have time.

 

[LOBALOT]

Also it seems wins over kids much higher are totally excluded if the difference is over 2 utr, and not given much weight if the win is around 1.5 utr higher. Which again makes little sense.

I am guessing the formula is designed for utr tournament play, where matches are weighted much more heavily if playing someone with the same utr. This doesn’t happen as often in USTA matches.

So if a player beats a few kids .5 to 1.5 utr higher, within a couple months his utr goes up .10 or 6.5 to 6,6.

The kid who didn’t play at all went up from 6.7 to 6.9.

Also a lot of talk about college scholarships… and no doubt a 12 is an excellent player. But didn’t coaches used to just see who wins the high school state championships and pick more or less the same players? Or the kids who won Kalamazoo/ orange bowl?

It was pretty obvious back in the day who was levels above everyone else. Don’t think anyone would confuse a 9 for a 12.

It makes sense and there was some inexperienced coach from a small Middle of the West D3 school with a weak tennis program that was raising a big fuss about that as well about one of his players that he coached but played for a D3 school out east. Coaches were laughing all over college recruiting circles about that complaint earlier in the year.

It makes complete sense using standard deviations that they not be included for the very reason you argued about players gaming the system. Using 2 standard deviations / differences in ratings they are indicating the odds are very unlikely without tanking/etc. that a player 2 UTR below another is going to beat their opponent. To eliminate this likelihood they do not count match scores with that difference in ability between the players.

If you want your kid to get better do it incrementally and over a period of time which demonstrates improvement.