Can UTR be trusted to operate and accurate system?

[LOBALOT]

Verifiably false:

PS: nick’s UTR is still climbing higher each day relative to the active field. He’s on pace to enter the UTR top 10 next week.

I’ve seen similar weird trend with my own UTR during periods of inactivity.

I can't even find this dude listed. Categorically false!

Search under Nick Canb and the search pulls up nothing.

 

[Tennis2349]

How do you propose it does otherwise? It will only go up without playing for a few reasons:

1) You have some old losses that age out of the calculation, so your UTR rises. I think we want this to happen. We certainly don't want 20 year old data in your UTR calculation, so it has to fall off sometime, right?

2) Your opponents UTR increases. This might not be a great reason for your UTR to rise, but how do you stop that? Can you imagine how complex the calculation would be if we not only take into account "strength of opponent", but also "date you played opponent and strength on that day"? Each person would have (a years worth?) of active UTR ratings. Maybe more.


What would your solution be to these things?

This is how I look at it…

If my chess Elo is 1000, there is a statiistical probability I will beat a 1200. Probably 3 out of 10 times.

1000 is a certain level of being able to play chess.

Now if a loss I had 3 months ago “falls off”, did that improve my chess? Why would I then be 1010? The only thing that would improve my ELO are wins. Beating the 1200 5 out of 10 times.

Or, if people I played 2 months ago improved, studied, and hired a chess coach, does that improve me? Of course not.

Or if both happen. Why would I then be 1050 Elo?

I am thinking utr was set up for utr tournaments where kids are grouped to play each other. 16 yr olds don’t want to play 12 year olds. So the number slowly increases as you get older for everyone. That’s a major component of the algorithm. That makes it “close enough” and turns a profit for utr.

 

[Tennis2349]

I can't even find this dude listed. Categorically false!

Search under Nick Canb and the search pulls up nothing.

That’s a good example.

4-15 was a 15.58

June 12 a 15.83

Went up a quarter point in 2 months, after 10 months of total inactivity. . Basically what I am saying for juniors. In 6 months anyone goes up around a point. Unless you actually play. Then it is much harder

 

[LOBALOT]

Seriously we are pulling up examples but they aren't in the system?

I would say something if we are pointing to real players.

 

[travlerajm]

Seriously we are pulling up examples but they aren't in the system?

I would say something if we are pointing to real players.

I know some people would debate this, but NK was at one point a real tennis player.

 

[LOBALOT]

I know some people would debate this, but NK was at one point a real tennis player.

OK so we are just messing around vs. serious discussion. I get it.

I mean I am not trying to be an advocate for UTR but simply pointing out that tennis dad's that complain about it's utility are simply trying to point to excuses for their kid's lack of skill vs the hard work it takes to have success in the sport as a junior.

We have been out here on this board for some time and in general have agreed on about everything as we simply enjoy the sport and are obviously enthused about the sport of tennis.

 

[Tennis2349]

OK so we are just messing around vs. serious discussion. I get it.

I mean I am not trying to be an advocate for UTR but simply pointing out that tennis dad's that complain about it's utility are simply trying to point to excuses for their kid's lack of skill vs the hard work it takes to have success in the sport as a junior.

We have been out here on this board for some time and in general have agreed on about everything as we simply enjoy the sport and are obviously enthused about the sport of tennis.

I’m not posting here saying “utr isn’t fair, my kid should have his utr raise without competing” I’m saying the opposite.

I am looking at profiles and noticing that is what happens. I don’t mean raising .02. I mean raising over an entire point without competing in less than 6 months.

Most juniors at a higher level are playing more often. But those who don’t go up just the same because their past opponents did.

So it’s a question as to what the algorithm is actually doing and why? Does it happen for seniors too? Just juniors? I don’t know.

USTA rankings that track actual wins are more accurate. Winning an entire tournament and winning 8 matches in two days(singles and doubles) is more telling than showing up to random utr matches and winning those once in a while. I see kids with higher utr’s that never won a tournament or ever beat someone higher than them. Another strange thing about utr.

When people talk about who the best is, how many are counting how many games pro players win? Would you say Djokovic is the goat if he won the early rounds 6/0 6/06/0 but then always lost in the quarters? Nobody cares about games won. Except utr.

I personally don’t care if my 12 yr old is on par with 17 year old Susan, or 48 year old Dave. They never play each other anyway. And I don’t think that would even be accurate either.

 

[travlerajm]

It doesn’t really affect us one way or another if UTR gets it’s act together and decides to fix its glaring math flaws or not.

But I wish that UTR would stop faking it.

 

[Tennis2349]

It doesn’t really affect us one way or another if UTR gets it’s act together and decides to fix its glaring math flaws or not.

But I wish that UTR would stop faking it.

From the UTR site:

WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE MY UTR RATING?​

Play Often – The more matches you play, the quicker your UTR Rating will reflect your current form. The algorithm is especially accurate for those who play often against a variety of opponents rated above and below you.


I feel that is false. Most people do not realize the UTR (Atleast for juniors) will go up on its own without playing at all.

It seems like the main determinant for success in the algorithm is just not losing to weaker players, and staying out of competition.

 

[travlerajm]

From the UTR site:

WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE MY UTR RATING?​

Play Often – The more matches you play, the quicker your UTR Rating will reflect your current form. The algorithm is especially accurate for those who play often against a variety of opponents rated above and below you.


I feel that is false. Most people do not realize the UTR (Atleast for juniors) will go up on its own without playing at all.

It seems like the main determinant for success in the algorithm is just not losing to weaker players, and staying out of competition.

Since it’s designed to be a zero-sum game, they can’t drift juniors upward during inactive periods without subtracting the gains from the rest of the players in the system. So adult ratings do the opposite when you sit out. Otherwise the system would implode.

So technically, adults are indeed getting “participation points”. Because if you play more as an adult, your rating doesn’t suffer fake injury decay.

Inactive juniors get fake ratings because past opponents got better. Inactive adults get fake ratings because past opponents got knee replacements.

 

[Tennis2349]

Since it’s designed to be a zero-sum game, they can’t drift juniors upward during inactive periods without subtracting the gains from the rest of the players in the system. So adult ratings do the opposite when you sit out. Otherwise the system would implode.

So technically, adults are indeed getting “participation points”. Because if you play more as an adult, your rating doesn’t suffer fake injury decay.

It’s also seems a bit arrogant to me. It seems like making excuses for the higher ranked player. “He must have had a bad day”. “Maybe he was sick” “maybe he was injured”

If 2 kids are competing, (obviously both healthy) , why would victories against higher utr kids be totally discounted? And also “weighted less” if the losing player is 1 to 1.5 utr points ahead.

Why are players being protected?

 

[travlerajm]

It’s also seems a bit arrogant to me. It seems like making excuses for the higher ranked player. “He must have had a bad day”. “Maybe he was sick” “maybe he was injured”

If 2 kids are competing, (obviously both healthy) , why would victories against higher utr kids be totally discounted? And also “weighted less” if the losing player is 1 to 1.5 utr points ahead.

Why are players being protected?

It’s also biased.

A match with 2.0+ UTR gap doesn’t count… unless the lower rated player wins! That’s biasing results toward lower rated player, effectively giving the algo too much weight to opponent strength. You get punished for playing weaker players (all risk no reward) and rewarded for player stronger ones. A non-biased rating system shouldn’t care who you play.

This bias is so strong that players are aware of it. That’s why you get junior players retiring against weaker rated players when the going gets tough.

 

[Tennis2349]

It’s also biased.

A match with 2.0+ UTR gap doesn’t count… unless the lower rated player wins! That’s biasing results toward lower rated player, effectively giving the algo too much weight to opponent strength. You get punished for playing weaker players (all risk no reward) and rewarded for player stronger ones. A non-biased rating system shouldn’t care who you play.

This bias is so strong that players are aware of it. That’s why you get junior players retiring against weaker rated players when the going gets tough.

They actually changed it so the match doesn’t count at all. Win or lose. Following my son’s profile that has seemed to be the case. But then again, nobody really knows. Or maybe it counts a little?

UTR Admits Change In Algorithm—Severely Hampers Ability To Raise Rating

As @texrunner feared, UTR has changed its methodology/algorithm. I don't understand the logic in excluding upsets or close matches with UTR differences more than two--especially in a tournament setting. I could understand the logic for self-reported matches in order to avoid match fixing but...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[travlerajm]

They actually changed it so the match doesn’t count at all. Win or lose. Following my son’s profile that has seemed to be the case. But then again, nobody really knows.

UTR Admits Change In Algorithm—Severely Hampers Ability To Raise Rating

As @texrunner feared, UTR has changed its methodology/algorithm. I don't understand the logic in excluding upsets or close matches with UTR differences more than two--especially in a tournament setting. I could understand the logic for self-reported matches in order to avoid match fixing but...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Lol. An expert probably pointed out the bias problem was a stinky.

 

[Tennis2349]

Lol. An expert probably pointed out the bias problem was a stinky.

Even if the matches count, what is the weight?

Again, I see players who don’t play at all raise a full point…

Players who beat players 1, 1.5 and 2 above don’t get much credit.

To be honest if you are a good junior you don’t get many chances to play kids 1.5 to 2 points above you unless you travel. Then when you win it doesn’t count much…

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

From the UTR site:

WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE MY UTR RATING?​

Play Often – The more matches you play, the quicker your UTR Rating will reflect your current form. The algorithm is especially accurate for those who play often against a variety of opponents rated above and below you.


I feel that is false. Most people do not realize the UTR (Atleast for juniors) will go up on its own without playing at all.

It seems like the main determinant for success in the algorithm is just not losing to weaker players, and staying out of competition.

Just a slight miss-step on reading comprehension. This says playing often against a variety of opponents will result in your UTR rating reflecting your current form, which is 100% true.

You think this is false because some Junior's ratings rise when not playing, happens to adults too, but what about your statement makes the one above that I rewrote false? NOTHING.

It's almost as if you are trying to answer What's the best way to INCREASE my UTR rating. Improving a UTR rating can also mean having it go down to more accurately reflect your real rating, a UTR rating going DOWN is also IMPROVING the UTR rating.

From adults scouting other adults to college coaches recruiting, we all know if someone hasn't played a UTR match in 6 months that the UTR number i less than accurate.

I'll puti t this way, I feel like a UTR I look up for someone is very accurate if they have 30-60 single matches per year spread out nicely, if I see someone has 5-10 per year or the last one was6 months ago, I don't even consider it accurate. UTR itself is trying to tell you this on the website.

If you are concerned anyone has a rising UTR from not playing for months, don't be, there's not trophy for that, no scholarship given for that, no one considers it legitimately. If they slip into a higher tournament bracket because of it, the other payers will beat them down.

 

[Tennis2349]

Just a slight miss-step on reading comprehension. This says playing often against a variety of opponents will result in your UTR rating reflecting your current form, which is 100% true.

You think this is false because some Junior's ratings rise when not playing, happens to adults too, but what about your statement makes the one above that I rewrote false? NOTHING.

It's almost as if you are trying to answer What's the best way to INCREASE my UTR rating. Improving a UTR rating can also mean having it go down to more accurately reflect your real rating, a UTR rating going DOWN is also IMPROVING the UTR rating.

From adults scouting other adults to college coaches recruiting, we all know if someone hasn't played a UTR match in 6 months that the UTR number i less than accurate.

I'll puti t this way, I feel like a UTR I look up for someone is very accurate if they have 30-60 single matches per year spread out nicely, if I see someone has 5-10 per year or the last one was6 months ago, I don't even consider it accurate. UTR itself is trying to tell you this on the website.

If you are concerned anyone has a rising UTR from not playing for months, don't be, there's not trophy for that, no scholarship given for that, no one considers it that legitimately.

Title is “what’s the best way to improve my utr rating”. Then it says “play often”. That is categorically false when seeing juniors profiles.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Title is “what’s the best way to improve my utr rating”. Then it says “play often”. That is categorically false when seeing juniors profiles.

I explained why it is not false. Feel free to explain why you think it is true but don't go back to a UTR rises when not playing, I explained why that doesn't apply.

 

[LOBALOT]

I’m not posting here saying “utr isn’t fair, my kid should have his utr raise without competing” I’m saying the opposite.

I am looking at profiles and noticing that is what happens. I don’t mean raising .02. I mean raising over an entire point without competing in less than 6 months.

Most juniors at a higher level are playing more often. But those who don’t go up just the same because their past opponents did.

So it’s a question as to what the algorithm is actually doing and why? Does it happen for seniors too? Just juniors? I don’t know.

USTA rankings that track actual wins are more accurate. Winning an entire tournament and winning 8 matches in two days(singles and doubles) is more telling than showing up to random utr matches and winning those once in a while. I see kids with higher utr’s that never won a tournament or ever beat someone higher than them. Another strange thing about utr.

When people talk about who the best is, how many are counting how many games pro players win? Would you say Djokovic is the goat if he won the early rounds 6/0 6/06/0 but then always lost in the quarters? Nobody cares about games won. Except utr.

I personally don’t care if my 12 yr old is on par with 17 year old Susan, or 48 year old Dave. They never play each other anyway. And I don’t think that would even be accurate either.

I think you will find issues from the standpoint of USTA rankings as well. In fact in many ways worse.

I will give you two simple examples

Example 1

This used to drive me nuts as it points to how spoiled some kids are and how their parents let their kids get away with things and that is the world famous Back Draw Default.

Often Decent players that are upset in the man draw withdraw from the back draw claiming "Injury", etc. but often it is they think they are too good to play in the back draw and their gentle feelings were hurt by the loss ini the main draw. I have seen kids win an entire back draw and collecting the associated points by defaults.

Is that player a better tennis players from a skill level than the those kids that quit and didn't play? In most cases no. I think they are better behaved and raised that is for sure.

Example 2

The USTA carries ranking points for national tournaments from the previous age group which totally discounts player improvement as they age. Often you see kids in national tournaments that started out in 12s nationals and because they did get in 14s nationals and because they did get into 16s nationals and because they did get into 18s national events.

Meanwhile some kid who didn't get into 12s but now are a much improved player in 14s attempt to sign up for a national 14s but they don't get in simply because they didn't get into the 12s events. Therefore, he doesn't get the opportunity to beat those players now and collect those points. What is worse they don't get into 14s and done't get into 16s and don't get into 18s. They spend their entire time in juniors missing out.

I have seen a ton of great players that are lower ranked by the USTA due to this.

Frankly, most experienced tennis parents and kids discount USTA rankings when evaluating one kid against another except from a broad perspective (i.e. #1 in the US playing #200, etc.).

 

[travlerajm]

One of UTR’s sore-thumbs sticking out is its over-weighting of opponent strength.

This shows up obviously in the atp pro doubles ratings.

Singles players are generally just first-round draw fodder for the doubles specialists. But they get free tickets into the doubles draws, if they want them, because organizers can sell more tickets with the bigger names of the singles players, even if they suck at doubles.

These singles guys often have very inflated doubles UTR, not reflecting their actual performance. Lots of them only play the slams. Rating is inflated because opponents are usually better at doubles than them.

Win one doubles match at a slam, or have a close loss, by getting lucky enough to be paired with a good doubles specialist as a partner, then he can take 6 months off from doubles while watching his doubles UTR climb while he’s inactive and focusing on singles.

Then next big tourney he loses first round to a pair of doubles guys with lower UTR than him.

This is the pro equivalent of what happens to junior UTR ratings when they sit out.

The rating is fake, based on faulty assumptions instead of actual play on court.

 

[Tennis2349]

I think you will find issues from the standpoint of USTA rankings as well. In fact in many ways worse.

I will give you two simple examples

Example 1

This used to drive me nuts as it points to how spoiled some kids are and how their parents let their kids get away with things and that is the world famous Back Draw Default.

Often Decent players that are upset in the man draw withdraw from the back draw claiming "Injury", etc. but often it is they think they are too good to play in the back draw and their gentle feelings were hurt by the loss ini the main draw. I have seen kids win an entire back draw and collecting the associated points by defaults.

Is that player a better tennis players from a skill level than the those kids that quit and didn't play? In most cases no. I think they are better behaved and raised that is for sure.

Example 2

The USTA carries ranking points for national tournaments from the previous age group which totally discounts player improvement as they age. Often you see kids in national tournaments that started out in 12s nationals and because they did get in 14s nationals and because they did get into 16s nationals and because they did get into 18s national events.

Meanwhile some kid who didn't get into 12s but now are a much improved player in 14s attempt to sign up for a national 14s but they don't get in simply because they didn't get into the 12s events. Therefore, he doesn't get the opportunity to beat those players now and collect those points. What is worse they don't get into 14s and done't get into 16s and don't get into 18s. They spend their entire time in juniors missing out.

I have seen a ton of great players that are lower ranked by the USTA due to this.

Frankly, most experienced tennis parents and kids discount USTA rankings when evaluating one kid against another except from a broad perspective (i.e. #1 in the US playing #200, etc.).

Both points leave several key facts out.

Point 1: The kid skipping consolation already has so many points that another night or two in a hotel would not be worth it. Only The top 6 tournaments are included in your ranking.

So if you have 6 tournaments with 200 points, and can get 150 by winning consolation, that tournament is not even counted anyway . The kid winning the conso points without even playing (never saw this but ok), will get the 150 points, but that really won’t move him up in any meaningful way in regards to college tennis.

Point 2: only 20 percent of your points go up an age group. They also fall off after a year. So if you have 1000 in 12’s, 200 move up to 14’s. That’s not nearly enough to make a level 1or 2 national tournament. And also never saw a kid who just started playing tournaments at 13-14 and is good enough to play in a level 1 or 2. But if this really is the case, he could quickly win a few level 6 tournaments in a month to get 300 points. (Which would equal 1500 earned in 12’s)

The top 10 in your state, or top 100 nationally clearly are better players. If one kid got free points and is 2300 nationally for a month instead of 2500 nationally it doesn’t really matter.

 

[Tennis2349]

I explained why it is not false. Feel free to explain why you think it is true but don't go back to a UTR rises when not playing, I explained why that doesn't apply.

Come on. Nobody is saying “hey guess what? My utr improved. I was a 6.5 , now I am a 6.2. Or “my ranking improved! I was 5th in the state now I am 20th”

 

[travlerajm]

Honestly, I think it would be really cool if TR would simply extend their database to handle juniors and pros.

They already do a rating calibration against usta bands. They could also set the world #1 each gender as ntrp 7.00.

There are enough places where juniors play against adults that they could get decent junior ratings too.

When I started playing tournaments as a junior 35 years ago, I was playing against usta computer rated adults, so I got to see my rating progress from 3.5 to 4.0 to 4.5 to 5.0. Of course when I started, they called 3.5 a C, and 4.0 a B, and 4.5 an A, and 5.0 open.


They still use A, B, and C in other countries.

 

[jmnk]

Could you provide an actual example of a player that :
Had 100% reliable utr ranking in 6 or more utr range
Then did not play for 6 months,
And then his utr ranking increased by 1 or more points?

@Tennis2349 - any progress on this?
Also, show me how you would want the UTR system to be improved and I'll tell you 10 reasons why it would not be any better.
Finally, don't use Fide Elo as some sort of golden standard. It has Viswanathan as 11th best player in the world, and if you believe that then I do not know what to tell you. But he legitimately is per how FIDE Elo ranking works.

​

 

[Tennis2349]

@Tennis2349 - any progress on this?
Also, show me how you would want the UTR system to be improved and I'll tell you 10 reasons why it would not be any better.
Finally, don't use Fide Elo as some sort of golden standard. It has Viswanathan as 11th best player in the world, and if you believe that then I do not know what to tell you. But he legitimately is per how FIDE Elo ranking works.

​

If I took the time to figure out how to post graphs, would it change your opinion? Your mind is made up.

I dont believe people should be given credit for improving without actually proving it with results. If in the end it all sort of is “close enough”then it meets those goals. Yes a 10 is better than a 6.

If vis (he is old) was regularly beating the top 10 he would be higher. There is no “well a major part of Elo is based on if people you beat before improve”

 

[LOBALOT]

Both points leave several key facts out.

Point 1: The kid skipping consolation already has so many points that another night or two in a hotel would not be worth it. Only The top 6 tournaments are included in your ranking.

So if you have 6 tournaments with 200 points, and can get 150 by winning consolation, that tournament is not even counted anyway . The kid winning the conso points without even playing (never saw this but ok), will get the 150 points, but that really won’t move him up in any meaningful way in regards to college tennis.

Point 2: only 20 percent of your points go up an age group. They also fall off after a year. So if you have 1000 in 12’s, 200 move up to 14’s. That’s not nearly enough to make a level 1or 2 national tournament. And also never saw a kid who just started playing tournaments at 13-14 and is good enough to play in a level 1 or 2. But if this really is the case, he could quickly win a few level 6 tournaments in a month to get 300 points. (Which would equal 1500 earned in 12’s)

The top 10 in your state, or top 100 nationally clearly are better players. If one kid got free points and is 2300 nationally for a month instead of 2500 nationally it doesn’t really matter.

Point 1, Yes, that is correct, only the top 6 are included but that means the weaker is gaining points they would have not amassed had the lost the first round back draw match to the stronger player (who withdrew vs. playing). To other points then if this player has these points in their top 6 how you can you rely on his points?

Point 2, That 20% certainly has an impact and once you are on the train.... you are on the train. And if you are not on the train you need to run very fast next to it and jump on and many don't.

Rankings don't mater within the state either. My son was number 3 in our state.

Your argument was that the USTA ranking is a better measure but like most tennis parents as you go along you will find it isn't and you will rely more on UTR or WTN.

I find it interesting you are complaining about the shortcomings in UTR and ignoring in the USTA rankings and brushing those aside.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Come on. Nobody is saying “hey guess what? My utr improved. I was a 6.5 , now I am a 6.2. Or “my ranking improved! I was 5th in the state now I am 20th”

This is why it is hard to discuss things, you need to read carefully. You proposed that UTR is wrong when it says the best way to improve your UTR is to play often in diverse environments. That is the best way, if you win matches. But, the word IMPROVE doesn't merely mean increase, it means accuracy, it goes both ways.

So, let's just ignore your miss-reading of IMPROVE and just assume it means INCREASE only. I still told you why that doesn't matter, because even if you have some example of one or two inactive UTR 6s going up more than some UTR 6 barely winning and not quite improving, it doesn't matter. Like I said, people and coaches don't consider the inactive UTR player as having improved. And besides, if they are UTR 6 they are kind of irrelevant to colleges.

But, no one is giving them credit, maybe you are I guess since you are taking it way too seriously.

I'll tell you what works for any player, I've been through this with @travlerajm who is befuddled by his UTR rating for mixed and singles despite playing about 6 -8 matches every 6 months with large breaks in between. The suggestion by UTR to play often in many different competitions solves it all.

A junior player who plays every weekend in a tournament and beats his/her competition will have no problem lapping a junior who doesn't play at all, even if that junior who doesn't play at all has increases in UTR.

And again, no one gives real credit to the number of an idle player, it's kind of common knowledge.

 

[travlerajm]

This is why it is hard to discuss things, you need to read carefully. You proposed that UTR is wrong when it says the best way to improve your UTR is to play often in diverse environments. That is the best way, if you win matches. But, the word IMPROVE doesn't merely mean increase, it means accuracy, it goes both ways.

So, let's just ignore your miss-reading of IMPROVE and just assume it means INCREASE only. I still told you why that doesn't matter, because even if you have some example of one or two inactive UTR 6s going up more than some UTR 6 barely winning and not quite improving, it doesn't matter. Like I said, people and coaches don't consider the inactive UTR player as having improved. And besides, if they are UTR 6 they are kind of irrelevant to colleges.

But, no one is giving them credit, maybe you are I guess since you are taking it way too seriously.

I'll tell you what works for any player, I've been through this with @travlerajm who is befuddled by his UTR rating for mixed and singles despite playing about 6 -8 matches every 6 months with large breaks in between. The suggestion by UTR to play often in many different competitions solves it all.

A junior player who plays every weekend in a tournament and beats his/her competition will have no problem lapping a junior who doesn't play at all, even if that junior who doesn't play at all has increases in UTR.

And again, no one gives real credit to the number of an idle player, it's kind of common knowledge.

Given my current injury-hampered status, my current singles UTR is 100% accurate. I posted two usta flex league matches this year and UTR doesn’t record those, but TR says I’m not that good at singles right now.

Playing my first mixed match of the year tomorrow, so we’ll see if we can stress the algo a bit again. I’d feel more confident if I was more sure that my Achilles will survive the match.

 

[Tennis2349]

This is why it is hard to discuss things, you need to read carefully. You proposed that UTR is wrong when it says the best way to improve your UTR is to play often in diverse environments. That is the best way, if you win matches. But, the word IMPROVE doesn't merely mean increase, it means accuracy, it goes both ways.

So, let's just ignore your miss-reading of IMPROVE and just assume it means INCREASE only. I still told you why that doesn't matter, because even if you have some example of one or two inactive UTR 6s going up more than some UTR 6 barely winning and not quite improving, it doesn't matter. Like I said, people and coaches don't consider the inactive UTR player as having improved. And besides, if they are UTR 6 they are kind of irrelevant to colleges.

But, no one is giving them credit, maybe you are I guess since you are taking it way too seriously.

I'll tell you what works for any player, I've been through this with @travlerajm who is befuddled by his UTR rating for mixed and singles despite playing about 6 -8 matches every 6 months with large breaks in between. The suggestion by UTR to play often in many different competitions solves it all.

A junior player who plays every weekend in a tournament and beats his/her competition will have no problem lapping a junior who doesn't play at all, even if that junior who doesn't play at all has increases in UTR.

And again, no one gives real credit to the number of an idle player, it's kind of common knowledge.

Not my exact point.

A. Yes part of it seems “unfair”. Juniors who are out there every other weekend taking risks, exposing themselves, playing though different extremes, work hard to have their utr improve. (Increase) and yes. You will lose to kids with lower utr if you expose yourself.

Kid who does not compete goes up more or just as much.

B. Aside from the unfairness, the question is how much of the algorithm is more dependent on things totally unrelated to you?


In my thoughts, if you train hard and get few opportunities to beat kids with a higher UTR, those matches should count. At a certain level you need to travel to play higher utr 14 year olds.

But utr says those matches don’t count, (or don’t count much because the kid was over a point higher) but counts the amount of games you lose to lower ranked players. Which isn’t even a real part of the sport. So you move very slowly and incrementally without even knowing what yoj get credit for.

So yes, in recent matches my son beat 4 kids .5 to 1.5 utr higher. His utr jumped .04.(and no. He didn’t have any bad results in past 6 months). Interesting the 4 he beat stayed the same.

The kid who hasn’t play had his go up .10 in the same time frame.

 

[Tennis2349]

Point 1, Yes, that is correct, only the top 6 are included but that means the weaker is gaining points they would have not amassed had the lost the first round back draw match to the stronger player (who withdrew vs. playing). To other points then if this player has these points in their top 6 how you can you rely on his points?

Point 2, That 20% certainly has an impact and once you are on the train.... you are on the train. And if you are not on the train you need to run very fast next to it and jump on and many don't.

Rankings don't mater within the state either. My son was number 3 in our state.

Your argument was that the USTA ranking is a better measure but like most tennis parents as you go along you will find it isn't and you will rely more on UTR or WTN.

I find it interesting you are complaining about the shortcomings in UTR and ignoring in the USTA rankings and brushing those aside.

You can win every consolation back draw , and maybe end up with 400 points. That’s not even enough for top 50 in my state.

It gets to a point where you just win level 5 and 3 tournaments to have a higher ranking The kids at the top can’t game the system.

What is harder? To win a level 3 tournament playing daily for 6 days? Mentally. Physically.

Or playing one off utr matches against girls and adults who are playing more or less for fun.

Maybe it is more designed for utr events as playing someone close to your utr is more heavily weighted.

 

[Tennis2349]

Atleast in USTA rankings if you knock off top players in the country you get bonus points. It’s a big achievement. And you get credit.

Utr basically says it doesn’t count. Which seems strange.

Or the idea is in UTR that you get credit for losing as long as you get some games.

Utr would probably say someone did better than alcaraz at the French open.

Krygios moved up a quarter point in pst two months. Maybe he did better.

Is there another sport that does this?

Does boxing give you credit based on rounds won? Or punches landed?

Does chess give you credit for how many pieces you grabbed during losses? “I lost to Vis but I grabbed 4 pawns and a rook. You grabbed 3 pawns. I am better”

 

[jmnk]

If I took the time to figure out how to post graphs, would it change your opinion? Your mind is made up.

yes, please do post these examples.

I dont believe people should be given credit for improving without actually proving it with results. If in the end it all sort of is “close enough”then it meets those goals. Yes a 10 is better than a 6.

please show me an example with historical results so we can explain what happens.

If vis (he is old) was regularly beating the top 10 he would be higher.

i do not know what you mean. I mean it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that if a player X was beating top 10 players hw would be ranked higher.

There is no “well a major part of Elo is based on if people you beat before improve”

But this is a major part of Elo: you only need to play _one_ match per year to keep Elo Ranking. Which is essentially what Viswanathan is doing. He played 5 (five) games that count for ranking in entire 2023. So far in 2024 he has played 3. My point is that he had established really, really high ranking in his best days (let's say about 10 or so years ago) and he still maintains it via occasionally playing. _Because_ FIDE ranking does not 'drop' any games ever. Is that better?

 

[Tennis2349]

yes, please do post these examples.

please show me an example with historical results so we can explain what happens.

i do not know what you mean. I mean it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that if a player X was beating top 10 players hw would be ranked higher.

But this is a major part of Elo: you only need to play _one_ match per year to keep Elo Ranking. Which is essentially what Viswanathan is doing. He played 5 (five) games that count for ranking in entire 2023. So far in 2024 he has played 3. My point is that he had established really, really high ranking in his best days (let's say about 10 or so years ago) and he still maintains it via occasionally playing. _Because_ FIDE ranking does not 'drop' any games ever. Is that better?

Ok. So he played 5 matches last year. And 3 in 2024. 8 games Correct?

How many did krygios play in the last year? 0

Yet his utr is 13th in the world, and actually went up .25 in the last two months. How? Is that better?

 

[travlerajm]

Ok. So he played 5 matches last year. And 3 in 2024. 8 games Correct?

How many did krygios play in the last year? 0

Yet his utr is 13th in the world, and actually went up .25 in the last two months. How? Is that better?

Just like it does for home-schooled juniors, I think UTR is giving Nick the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he is secretly training in preparation for acceptance of a surprise WC entry into Wimbledon so that he can vulture the weak grass draw. It’s all factored into the algo.

 

[jmnk]

Ok. So he played 5 matches last year. And 3 in 2024. 8 games Correct?

How many did krygios play in the last year? 0

Yet his utr is 13th in the world, and actually went up .25 in the last two months. How? Is that better?

you are using an example of a player that has played on match since Jan 1 2023 as an example of 'UTR algorithm is wrong'. That is just silly. this is such an outlier that any reasonable person would disregard.

UTR page shows you he has no results for last 12 months, has no 3-months trend. His UTR chart is no longer shown because he does not have enough matches over last 12 months. What else do you want UTR to say to indicate that 'his UTR as shown reflects approximate ratings from the days he used to play - but there's no telling anymore what his current level is'.

And I do not know where you see that his UTR increased by 0.25 over last two months.

 

[tennis3]

This thread is now about if Nick Kyrgios' UTR Rating is "Correct"?

I guess it's time the stop paying attention to this.

 

[travlerajm]

This thread is now about if Nick Kyrgios' UTR Rating is "Correct"?

I guess it's time the stop paying attention to this.

I think he can crack the UTR Top 10 by Wimbledon.

 

[jmnk]

This thread is now about if Nick Kyrgios' UTR Rating is "Correct"?

I guess it's time the stop paying attention to this.

no, this thread is still about your original complains, but so far the _only_ example of 'UTR being wrong' that you have is that Nick Kyrgios case. You/trav brought it into discussion, no one else.

 

[travlerajm]

no, this thread is still about your original complains, but so far the _only_ example of 'UTR being wrong' that you have is that Nick Kyrgios case. You/trav brought it into discussion, no one else.

Do you think Donald Young’s 0.25 climb in his UTR rating (a jump of 250 atp ranking slots) in the past month is justified?

He’s now back up to 13.52 UTR but has not played in 9 months. And he only won 2 of last 15 matches.

I can keep coming up with more examples. This is easy.

 

[jmnk]

Do you think Donald Young’s 0.25 climb in his UTR rating (a jump of 250 atp ranking slots) in the past month is justified?

He’s now back up to 13.52 UTR but has not played in 9 months. And he only won 2 of last 15 matches.

I can keep coming up with more examples. This is easy.

Are you suggesting that his results from May this year posted on his UTR profile are fake?

 

[travlerajm]

Are you suggesting that his results from May this year posted on his UTR profile are fake?

Well UTR thinks they are fake anyway because of 2+ UTR gap rule. Those might as well be fake.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Given my current injury-hampered status, my current singles UTR is 100% accurate. I posted two usta flex league matches this year and UTR doesn’t record those, but TR says I’m not that good at singles right now.

Playing my first mixed match of the year tomorrow, so we’ll see if we can stress the algo a bit again. I’d feel more confident if I was more sure that my Achilles will survive the match.

good luck, watch that injury though.

 

[travlerajm]

How about Jack Sock, 100% reliable UTR 15 singles?

If Sock is still really a 15, then I’m going to try out the pizza training regime too.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

I think it's best for mental health that neither of you look at UTR anymore lol, @travlerajm and @Tennis2349 .

It's just not for you. and END OF THREAD

 

[travlerajm]

I think it's best for mental health that neither of you look at UTR anymore lol, @travlerajm and @Tennis2349 .

It's just not for you. and END OF THREAD

We’re not asking for much. Just a universal rating system that we can trust and believe in.

Now back to researching the Jack Sock training plan.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

We’re not asking for much. Just a universal rating system that we can trust and believe in.

Won't happen, the most hilarious part is you playing 6 matches a year and paying UTR for the super subscription , lol, why?

Just play tennis, UTR is too scary for you both.

 

[Tennis2349]

How about Jack Sock, 100% reliable UTR 15 singles?

If Sock is still really a 15, then I’m going to try out the pizza training regime too.

The arguments keep shifting.

“Well, it’s different for pros” maybe?

“Well, it doesn’t matter for 6 utr anyway”

“Well it’s only for scholarships”

“Well, coaches look at more than utr for scholarships”

“Well, it’s pretty accurate”

“If you beat someone much better they had a bad day! Must have been sick!

 

[travlerajm]

Won't happen, the most hilarious part is you playing 6 matches a year and paying UTR for the super subscription , lol, why?

Just play tennis, UTR is too scary for you both.

I paid not for myself, but so I could have complete access to scouting info for my pro clients.

I discovered that the ratings were sort of bogus so I discontinued.

 

[Tennis2349]

I paid not for myself, but so I could have complete access to scouting info for my pro clients.

I discovered that the ratings were sort of bogus so I discontinued.

It’s almost like utr is saying “we will never be wrong with the algorithm. So if a lower utr beats a higher utr it won’t count for much, or maybe not at all. Out secret”

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

You two should exchange emails and get to the bottom of the bottom of the great UTR conspiracy