Can UTR be trusted to operate and accurate system?

[Tennis2349]

Well finally the utr has corrected ! I think it helped that player A beat player B 6-2 6-1 in the last tournament. Along with almost beating another 8!

Player B moved down to 7.27.

Played A moved up to 6.71! .01 improvement according to UTR!

Can’t make this stuff up. 100 percent accuracy!

Doubles rating moved up .60. Makes perfect sense …

 

[Tennis2349]

And I know people are messaging me saying”don’t be upset your kid isn’t any good” lol.

The point is that if you are selling something, and everyone is also forced to use it, don’t market it as 100 percent accurate when it isn’t.

Just say “accurate within 1 utr point” or whatever the level of accuracy actually is.

Studies show it is accurate picking winners 72 percent of the time. So yes, better than a coin flip.

Why is doubles utr fluctuating a half point after every match…

Player a has been better , and had better results than player b for 6 months. And actually just beat him. Yet is has not been accurate and won’t be for a long time. Not even close to being equal according to utr.

 

[Tennis2349]

This is what utr emailed me.

On other threads people are saying the system hasn’t been updating for 3 weeks. (Which would make sense)

Or that USTA and utr are having issues sharing information. Any ideas of what is going on?

After 3 good tournaments no move at all, other then the tiny move everyone seems to have automatically.

Example. :

End of November until January did not play at all. Moved up .15

May 15 until now excellent results. 10 matches.

Moved up .16.


“Thanks for reaching out about those missing scores. We're working closely with the USTA to ensure all scores are uploaded and count toward your UTR Rating. Please be patient with us as we work through this process of upgrading our import systems and ensuring the best accuracy for your rating.

While I'm not able to provide an exact timeline, know that I'm here if you need anything else.”

 

[onehandbh]

This is the way.

An overweight, 61-year-old, self-taught guy named Andy Arpee has been stuck at an NTRP rating of 3.5.

He has tried everything. He has watched countless youtube and online videos on tennis instruction, switched to a full Western grip, bought the latest Head Nano-Metallica CyberFlux racquet, wears 13 TaoPatches on his body, and when using a chair and full-body kip he can do one crossfit chinup. But nothing seems to help him improve his tennis.

Also, his love of pancakes is preventing him from using ISR on his serve.

One day he locates a tennis club that has a track record of producing future ATP pros.

He then challenges and defeats 3-year-old Yannick Alcatraz.

Andy wins but it is not easy.

He takes 7 "injury" timeouts.
He sometimes bounces the ball up to 74 times before serving so he can catch his breath.
He calls any shot landing near the baseine "out".
After suffering from cramps down 1-4 in the first set, he takes a bathroom and injury timeout so he can employ his secret weapon...

In the locker room, Andy pulls out an outfit that is identical to the one he is wearing and gives it to his friend's son Johnny Moremann to put on. Johnny recently won the high school state singles championship. Instead of Andy coming out of the locker room, Johnny does.

Even with Johnny playing for him, it is a very close match. Andy (Johnny) battles back to win the first set 7-5, but 3-year-old Alcatraz changes tactics in the 2nd set and starts moonballing and dropshotting. Alcatraz wins the 2nd set 7-6(37-35), but wears himself out from the effort and it is now 2:35pm -- past his nap time.

Johnny races out to a 5-0, 40-0 lead in the deciding 3rd set and then runs into the locker room for a quick toilet break and stays in the locker room, but...

The real Andy returns to the court to finish the match. Little Alcatraz doesn't give up and claws back point by point until it is 4-5, 30-40 on his serve, down match point. He misses his first serve. As he hits his second serve, his strings break but the serve still makes it over the net and lands 1 foot inside the service line.

"OUT!!!!!!", screams Andy.

7-5, 6-7, 6-4. Game. Set. Match for Andy. He lets out a gladiator roar before going to the net to shake Alcatraz's hand.

Believing he has reached his peak and it will never get better than this, Andy retires from playing tennis.

13 years later, Alcatraz becomes the youngest Roland Garros champion and his UTR rises dramatically to 16.22.

Despite not playing for the last 13
years, Andy Arpee's UTR rises to 16.23.

He is now the highest rated 74-year-old man,

 

[Tennis2349]

As a parent, let’s say your child does very well in a tournament. So they are awarded points. And yes, the USTA makes mistakes. Would you email them and ask for the points to be added to your child’s ranking? I am guessing most people would.

There is a sort of transparency that exists. If the system is accurate or not, you atleast know that the results are added and correct.

Utr , (I guess to protect their secret algorithm), does not have that transparency. So when results are left off of your profile, and added later, how do you even know if they were even included into the algorithm? You don’t.

The UTR number is more widely used than USTA rankings. High school teams, college scholarships, which programs, which court, etc.

I would say that atleast with WTN it is more transparent. If you win the number goes down. If you don’t play it stays the same. If you lose it goes up.

 

[LOBALOT]

Can WTN be trusted to operate any tournament?

That should be the question as UTR is a better tool.

Here at a summer ITA this weekend. Of course it is WTN based and what do you know?

WTN doesn't include any college match results in its calculations. Why the heck would you run a summer college ITA circuit using a measure of acceptance and bracketing based on a tool that doesn't include college results?????

What would one expect the predictive nature of that tool in the overall tournament results?

Not great from what I am seeing.

Moreover, there was a college player that didn't even get into our event because his WTN was not reliable but had played college matches which should have been factored into his entry but were not. Meanwhile some 13 year old kid with a WTN gets in but gets destroyed and really shouldn't have been admitted into the draw.

What do you know.. UTR contains both college and non-college results.

Another example that junior tennis dad frustrated that his kid isn't a good tennis player doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

[Tennis2349]

Can WTN be trusted to operate any tournament?

That should be the question as UTR is a better tool.

Here at a summer ITA this weekend. Of course it is WTN based and what do you know?

WTN doesn't include any college match results in its calculations. Why the heck would you run a summer college ITA circuit using a measure of acceptance and bracketing based on a tool that doesn't include college results?????

What would one expect the predictive nature of that tool in the overall tournament results?

Not great from what I am seeing.

Moreover, there was a college player that didn't even get into our event because his WTN was not reliable but had played college matches which should have been factored into his entry but were not. Meanwhile some 13 year old kid with a WTN gets in but gets destroyed and really shouldn't have been admitted into the draw.

What do you know.. UTR contains both college and non-college results.

Another example that junior tennis dad frustrated that his kid isn't a good tennis player doesn't know what he is talking about.

WtN or utr are not used in any junior USTA tournaments. They seed and accept players by USTA rankings.

As for your example, 13 year olds playing college players does not seem to be very common. They rarely compete against each other. For obvious reasons.

But there are 10 utr 13 year olds that would get demolished by 10 utr college players. Utr isn’t accurate at all when there is little to no cross play. Obviously the 13 year old built his utr by beating 11 and 12 year olds.

There is a 80 lb 12 yr old girl in my area that is a 9.7 utr. You are saying she would be defeating college men? lol. That’s a joke. She wouldn’t be able to return a serve.amazing player that plays level 1 tournaments…. But not going to be defeating male 10 utrs…

You replied to my post but totally ignored the part about transparency.

 

[LOBALOT]

WtN or utr are not used in any junior USTA tournaments. They seed and accept players by USTA rankings.

As for your example, 13 year olds playing college players does not seem to be very common.

But there are 10 utr 13 year olds that would get demolished by 10 utr college players. Utr isn’t accurate at all when there is little to no cross play.

You replied to my post but totally ignored the part about transparency.

WTN is not used????

 

[LOBALOT]

Just another example that Junior Tennis dad doesn't know what he is talking about:

USTA /

 

[Tennis2349]

Just another example that Junior Tennis dad doesn't know what he is talking about:

USTA /

lol. You found one tournament that does that? Great.

What is the point you are trying to make? Utr is transparent and accurate because that tournament uses WtN?

 

[LOBALOT]

lol. You found one tournament that does that? Great.

What is the point you are trying to make? Utr is transparent and accurate because that tournament uses WtN?

First of all every one of your arguments is an edge case so you certainly can't complain about selecting edge cases.

However, all one needs to do is search by WTN and they will certainly find more than 1 tournament.

Junior tennis dad needs to learn how to use the search function.

 

[Tennis2349]

First of all every one of your arguments is an edge case so you certainly can't complain about selecting edge cases.

However, all one needs to do is search by WTN and they will certainly find more than 1 tournament.

Junior tennis dad needs to learn how to use the search function.

Ok. Again. There are a few tournaments in certain sections in which USTA uses their own rating system to select players and seeds. So?

what does that have to do with the total lack of transparency utr operates under? Or how utr just makes up BS. “Well, you beat the better player,buuuut, he must have been sick. So to protect the accuracy of utr we will just discount that result”

 

[LOBALOT]

Ok. Again. There are a few tournaments in certain sections in which USTA uses their own rating system to select players and seeds. So?

what does that have to do with the total lack of transparency utr operates under?

You said WTN was not used. Are you changing that position?

My point is WTN and their rankings are the USTA's tool for selecting and ranking kids and:

1. WTN is not transparent either. Can you explain the algorithm in any more specific detail than UTR?
2. WTN is not all encompassing but UTR is more inclusive and thus a better overall evaluation of a player.
3. USTA Rankings are not all encompassing but UTR is more encompassing.

 

[Tennis2349]

You said WTN was not used. Are you changing that position?

My point is WTN and their rankings are the USTA's tool for selecting and ranking kids and:

1. WTN is not transparent either. Can you explain the algorithm in any more specific detail than UTR?
2. WTN is not all encompassing but UTR is more inclusive and thus a better overall evaluation of a player.
3. USTA Rankings are not all encompassing but UTR is more encompassing.

Yes. I will change that position. Have never seen it used in the South. What percentage of tournaments is WtN used to seed and select players?

1. The predictability is more transparent. If you win WTN goes up. Lose it goes down. Don’t play it stays the same.
2. Yes, utr is meant to be more encompassing, but it is wildly innacurate across different groups of players anyway.
3. WtN doesn’t protect its algorithm results by making excuses for players that lose.

 

[Tennis2349]

Looked at a level 5 tournament this weekend.

4 of the last 8 matches end in retirements. In everyone the higher utr player losing.

Have to protect that number! Great for the game and great sportsmanship.

With all of the withdrawals and retirements junior tennis is becoming a farce. Trying to chase a computer number instead of learning how to win and lose.