Can Wawrinka Save Tennis? You bet he can

[MIKEPANTELAKIS]

To say Rafa is bad for the sport is ignorant. This thread is clearly made by a Rafa hater... As much as I am a reverse fan of Nole, I have TREMENDOUS respect for the guy and think he is as great for the sport as any other top player out there. I would never go out and say negative things about Nole or any other player that I'm not a fan of. It's immature and just plain ignorant.

I hope to see a great final and if Stan does end up winning, then he was the better player this day. It doesn't take anything away from Rafa, and what he has done over his career.

Vamos Rafa!!!

 

[monfed]

Nadal is terrible for the sport. Moonball to BH to win all slams,effectively a clay courter is winning all the slams which isn't good for tennis. He would've been brutally stomped on the quicker surfaces of the 90s or even the surfaces pre 07. Seriously, quit with the mental gymnastics to justify how Ralph's tennis is good because it's not. Nadal plays NEGATIVE DEFENSIVE grinder tennis, that can never be good for the sport, it's ok in spurts. It was somewhat ok when Ralph was stinking up the FO but a dud everywhere else, but now he's basically stinking up every slam with his anti-tennis, it's terrible. Terrible terrible terrible. Nadal is a plague on tennis, a really bad one.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Whilst I can help but appreciate Chopin's thread here, and his reasoning behind it, I cannot but also accept the fact that (the other) Ralph has been the man at the helm for moving tennis in a different direction as far as style of game is concerned. Note, I said man at the helm...Those responsible are behind the scenes, the businessmen who saw the $ disappearing with Pete, Goran etc...

And here we are today.

No matter how much the game may have succeeded in forging a new path, it will be a while before Ralph and such players are regarded as highly as Federer in popularity. And no, social media isn't the ultimate deciding factor for this

Are you saying that no matter what Nadal does, Federer will always be the bigger name and the more beloved globally? I understand, even now Federer is the biggest name in pro tennis, but you think it will always stay that way?

 

[tipsa...don'tlikehim!]

Nadal is terrible for the sport. Moonball to BH to win all slams,effectively a clay courter is winning all the slams which isn't good for tennis. He would've been brutally stomped on the quicker surfaces of the 90s or even the surfaces pre 07. Seriously, quit with the mental gymnastics to justify how Ralph's tennis is good because it's not. Nadal plays NEGATIVE DEFENSIVE grinder tennis, that can never be good for the sport, it's ok in spurts. It was somewhat ok when Ralph was stinking up the FO but a dud everywhere else, but now he's basically stinking up every slam with his anti-tennis, it's terrible. Terrible terrible terrible. Nadal is a plague on tennis, a really bad one.

Haha you are having a terrible time aren't you?

http://www.webmd.com/depression/symptoms-depressed-anxiety-12/antidepressants

 

[Ralph]

Are you saying that no matter what Nadal does, Federer will always be the bigger name and the more beloved globally? I understand, even now Federer is the biggest name in pro tennis, but you think it will always stay that way?

Nope Hitman, I think it will be a while before he will/could be as popular as Federer, not that he never will be. He is most likely more popular amongst younger fans, but the younger fans do no make the total amount. We have to remember that Roger is likely to retire over the next few years, and - actually, whilst I'm typing this something has just occurred to me; the longer Roger plays, the less likely his popularity will suffer, and the more he will stifle the increase in popularity of Nadal, IMO.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Nope Hitman, I think it will be a while before he will/could be as popular as Federer, not that he never will be. He is most likely more popular amongst younger fans, but the younger fans do no make the total amount. We have to remember that Roger is likely to retire over the next few years, and - actually, whilst I'm typing this something has just occurred to me; the longer Roger plays, the less likely his popularity will suffer, and the more he will stifle the increase in popularity of Nadal, IMO.

You make valid points. Nadal's name has always been second to Federer's globally. It is quite amazing that as amazing as Nadal is, he hasn't taken that mantle yet. I guess it could happen at some point, but as you said, if Federer keeps playing, it could prevent Nadal's popularity from reaching number one. who knows.

 

[MCallanan]

Wawrinka will be the public's favorite to beat Rafa but he needs a miracle. Maybe two or three miracles. Rafa looks unbeatable. If Stan wins this final it might be the greatest upset in sports since Mike Tyson lost to James Buster Douglas.

Not even close. A $1,500 bet on Buster Douglas paid off at $57,000. A $1,500 bet on Stan Wawrinka pays off at $5,550.

That's not to say Wawrinka beating Nadal wouldn't be an upset. However, Nadal has had his ups and downs in the tournament. He also has an injury that's preventing complete pronation on his serve. Factor that with Stan playing fantastically over his last four weeks and there are a lot of whispers that regardless of their previous head to head records, Stan could make a match of this.

 

[heninfan99]

It has occurred you to hat Soderling left the sport under mysterious circumstances and never returned? But his Nadal imitation was pretty good.

I thought Tsonga was a little soft. Can't imagine him in the gym.

like Tsonga or Soderling.

 

[octobrina10]

Nadal is terrible for the sport. Moonball to BH to win all slams,effectively a clay courter is winning all the slams which isn't good for tennis. He would've been brutally stomped on the quicker surfaces of the 90s or even the surfaces pre 07...

Federer couldn't win any USO titles before the courts were slowed down (in 2003)!

 

[Chanwan]

Didn't you see the post where they said that Fed's team was covering up the camera?

Nadal has never been one-dimensional. Fed just never understood his game. He still doesn't. Fed seems to think it's about having an arsenal of different shots, but what use are those shots if you're not able to beat your greatest rival.

Wawrinka, Haas, Dmitrov, etc. have a lot of shots, but zero slams between them.

So many people get it twisted. It's not about hitting shots, it's about meeting your objectives.

Nadal has done that to the chagrin of his many haters.

He's the best.

I've been in arguments with many Nadal fans, who regarded his game as a bit one-dimensional in 05-06 - it's hardly a controversial statement.
You seem to equal
Meeting your objectives = cannot possibly be one-dimensional.

Whereas if you are really, really good at what you can do (as Nadal is and was), you don't need that many dimensions in his game.

I've said it before and I'll happily say it again. Nadal is really adaptable, a good learner and a good student. He's evolved more than most after winning his first slam and getting to no. 2 in the world. He saw he needed to keep developing (as opposed to say, Wozniacki in the women's game). And he did. And now, and not for many years, have people with any understanding of the game called him one-dimensional (although he does prefer some patterns of play vastly above anything else, he can change when he has to).

 

[Ralph]

You make valid points. Nadal's name has always been second to Federer's globally. It is quite amazing that as amazing as Nadal is, he hasn't taken that mantle yet. I guess it could happen at some point, but as you said, if Federer keeps playing, it could prevent Nadal's popularity from reaching number one. who knows.

I do feel that as Nadal approaches the 17 count of Roger, then his popularity will increase as result of human nature - can he do it, etc.? Same thing happened to Roger to a degree. The only difference being how they did/do it.

 

[GoaLaSSo]

Nadal is good for tennis. He is a true fighter and a warrior, which is something I feel tennis lacked for a long time. His personality and style was something cool and new when he first came around. There are some things he does that are a little less than agreeable, but he is a decent sportsman for the most part (there have been far worse.)

I do hope that Wawrinka wins, but only because we need new champions to emerge. The game gets so stale when the same guys win over and over again. The first five fed-djoko-nadal-murray matches are exciting and cool because we are so excited about the crazy level of tennis these guys have achieved, but then it gets very dull to watch the same 4 guys duke it out every single slam.

I found the late 90s and early 2000s to be the most exciting time for tennis because of how many different people could make a stake at slams. The game was exciting and entertaining, and you rarely saw the same match up or type of match more than a few times. Variable court speeds made each tournament seem different and let specialists shine. We got to see almost all the styles being used instead of seeing the ultra baseline tennis of today.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I do feel that as Nadal approaches the 17 count of Roger, then his popularity will increase as result of human nature - can he do it, etc.? Same thing happened to Roger to a degree. The only difference being how they did/do it.

I do wonder what will happen to all the Federer fans, after he walks into the sunset. Do they quit watching tennis? Will someone become a magnet for the largest fan base in the sport? Federer will leave a massive vacuum, interesting to see who fills it.

 

[mawashi]

Haha you are having a terrible time aren't you?

http://www.webmd.com/depression/symptoms-depressed-anxiety-12/antidepressants

Nadal bad for the sport... NO!

monfed bad for tennis forums YES LOL!

Quick someone give him tissues before he cry moonballs.

As a fan of both Fed and Rafa I do I mourn the decline of their rivalry yes, do I see the sport going into dire straits because pretty boy Fed is getting old... heck no.

GOAT ≠ GOD

The ridiculous argument that Fed loses because of moonballs is hilarious!

1 If all it takes to beat Fed are moonballs then he kidda sucks really.
2. Guys like Fabrice Santoro should have handed Fed his arse every time right? NOT

Rafa plays smart, percentage tennis yet can pull out crazy shots if he needs to as oppose to 100% all the time, crazy, flamboyant styles like Gulbis or Monfils.

Fed is the GOAT but goats get old too.

 

[monfed]

Nadal bad for the sport... NO!

monfed bad for tennis forums YES LOL!

Quick someone give him tissues before he cry moonballs.

As a fan of both Fed and Rafa I do I mourn the decline of their rivalry yes, do I see the sport going into dire straits because pretty boy Fed is getting old... heck no.

GOAT ≠ GOD

The ridiculous argument that Fed loses because of moonballs is hilarious!

1 If all it takes to beat Fed are moonballs then he kidda sucks really.
2. Guys like Fabrice Santoro should have handed Fed his arse every time right? NOT

Rafa plays smart, percentage tennis yet can pull out crazy shots if he needs to as oppose to 100% all the time, crazy, flamboyant styles like Gulbis or Monfils.

Fed is the GOAT but goats get old too.

You're not a Federer fan, you like Fed the same way I like Roddick. But I don't blame you for saying it because let's face it, Nadal's entire case for GOATship depends on Fed so you have to praise him otherwise it makes Nadal look pedestrian.

 

[mawashi]

I do wonder what will happen to all the Federer fans, after he walks into the sunset. Do they quit watching tennis? Will someone become a magnet for the largest fan base in the sport? Federer will leave a massive vacuum, interesting to see who fills it.

Fed fans will find another hero like Dimitrov, Fedtar*s on the other hand will bit%h, moan, carp, complain and generally become banned trolls forever haunting the threads of their one and only idol.

 

[mawashi]

You're not a Federer fan, you like Fed the same way I like Roddick. But I don't blame you for saying it because let's face it, Nadal's entire case for GOATship depends on Fed so you have to praise him otherwise it makes Nadal look pedestrian.

Neither Fed nor Rafa need each other to prove a point, they are greats in their own right.

Neither do I need to prove that I'm a Fed fan to you so the only one that looks pedestrian is you.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Fed fans will find another hero like Dimitrov, Fedtar*s on the other hand will bit%h, moan, carp, complain and generally become banned trolls forever haunting the threads of their one and only idol.

LOL, I was actually talking about the real world.

 

[JoshT]

Butt hurt at it's finest.

 

[monfed]

Neither Fed nor Rafa need each other to prove a point, they are greats in their own right.

Neither do I need to prove that I'm a Fed fan to you so the only one that looks pedestrian is you.

Ok. Where is S.E.A?

 

[JoshT]

Same thoughts here, swordtennis. The game needs some more grace and dignity at the moment. I was reading a Wordsworth sonnet the other day that begins, "Milton! thou shouldst be living at this hour: England hath need of thee" and I couldn't help substituting the name of a number of past greats in there and thinking about the sonnet in terms of tennis.

Grace and dignity huh? I hope to god you're not a Djokovic fan.
Shirt ripping is the least graceful thing you can do on a tennis court.

 

[mawashi]

Nadal is good for tennis. He is a true fighter and a warrior, which is something I feel tennis lacked for a long time. His personality and style was something cool and new when he first came around. There are some things he does that are a little less than agreeable, but he is a decent sportsman for the most part (there have been far worse.)

I do hope that Wawrinka wins, but only because we need new champions to emerge. The game gets so stale when the same guys win over and over again. The first five fed-djoko-nadal-murray matches are exciting and cool because we are so excited about the crazy level of tennis these guys have achieved, but then it gets very dull to watch the same 4 guys duke it out every single slam.

I found the late 90s and early 2000s to be the most exciting time for tennis because of how many different people could make a stake at slams. The game was exciting and entertaining, and you rarely saw the same match up or type of match more than a few times. Variable court speeds made each tournament seem different and let specialists shine. We got to see almost all the styles being used instead of seeing the ultra baseline tennis of today.

Agree however, the late 1990 still had some big names that dominated often. Agassi, Sampras, Chang, Courier, Rafter, Kafelnikov, Muster, Kuerten etc.

I do agree that it was more open an era then then now where the big 5 win almost everything in sight.

The game gets stale only when you have a 1 trick pony winning all the time with the same old trick and Nadal isn't a one trick pony like Roddick or Isner. Big serve, big forehand and not much else.

 

[mawashi]

Ok. Where is S.E.A?

I'll give you a hint... S & E are points on a compass and A is a region that includes Australia.

 

[Ralph]

I do wonder what will happen to all the Federer fans, after he walks into the sunset. Do they quit watching tennis? Will someone become a magnet for the largest fan base in the sport? Federer will leave a massive vacuum, interesting to see who fills it.

Now you mention it, it is an interesting question. I do wonder too...

Who will be the Phoenix to rise from the vacuum?

 

[Forehand Of Doom]

Another elitist idiotic rant. Prince Valiant has been dethroned a while back, and soon his slam record might fall. Tennis is a competitive sport which requires proving you are better than your rivals. Maybe Federer should take interpretative dancing or join the Bolshoi Ballet to keep you Nadal haters happy.

 

[mawashi]

LOL, I was actually talking about the real world.

Since, when did reality get in the way of net delusions lol!

In reality, ahem, reality... real tennis fans will be out playing and venting their frustrations rather then bang on the keyboard, moaning bout the current state of fedstrating tennis.

I'm going to restring my old RDS002 Tours and see what the fuss is about Stan and Yonex lol!

I'm pretty some some will go on a Fed brand shopping spree to get as much Fed gear before they go obsolete.

 

[NADALRECORD]

Fed is the GOAT but goats get old too.

The temporary/transitional GOAT yes. The 3....2.....1 countdown is on after Sunday :arrow:

 

[monfed]

I'll give you a hint... S & E are points on a compass and A is a region that includes Australia.

Adelaide?

 

[namelessone]

It has occurred you to hat Soderling left the sport under mysterious circumstances and never returned? But his Nadal imitation was pretty good.

Yeah, we know that Soderling is serving a 2 year silent suspension or whatever the conspiracy theory is these days.

I thought Tsonga was a little soft. Can't imagine him in the gym.

THIS guy looks soft?

 

[mawashi]

Adelaide?

Since, when did Adelaide become larger then Oz? Think about what I said... a region that includes Australia.

 

[Chanwan]

You make valid points. Nadal's name has always been second to Federer's globally. It is quite amazing that as amazing as Nadal is, he hasn't taken that mantle yet. I guess it could happen at some point, but as you said, if Federer keeps playing, it could prevent Nadal's popularity from reaching number one. who knows.

I don't see him winning this one as long as Fed is playing:

ATPWorldTour.com Fans' Favorite

Year Player Nationality
2000 Gustavo Kuerten Brazil
2001 Marat Safin Russia
2002 Marat Safin (2) Russia
2003 Roger Federer Switzerland
2004 Roger Federer (2) Switzerland
2005 Roger Federer (3) Switzerland
2006 Roger Federer (4) Switzerland
2007 Roger Federer (5) Switzerland
2008 Roger Federer (6) Switzerland
2009 Roger Federer (7) Switzerland
2010 Roger Federer (8) Switzerland
2011 Roger Federer (9) Switzerland
2012 Roger Federer (10) Switzerland
2013 Roger Federer (11) Switzerland

 

[Chopin]

 

[Chopin]

Just to clarify a few things:

I don't think Nadal is a bad guy and he's obviously generated interest in tennis. So, my comment about him being "bad" for tennis is a little bit more nuanced than how some of you took it. I respect Nadal's abilities and his determination, but we needed a new champion in the sport--someone other than Nadal, Federer, Djokovic or Murray. Given how ecstatic so many people are with Stan winning, I really do think my thread was prescient.

 

[Emiliano55]

Ladies and gentlemen,

Some of us are tired of Nadal. We're tired of him not because he's beaten a 32 year old man, but because he's bad for tennis (for you boys out there who are obsessed with the "GOAT debate," stay in school and find a girlfriend). Why is he bad for tennis? The reasons are many:

1) He behaves like a WWF wrestler on the court, setting a terrible example for juniors. There's nothing sportsmanlike about chest bumps, stare-downs and grunting as loudly as Maria Sharapova during a point. Do any of the other top men grunt as loudly as Nadal? There's nothing sportsmanlike about making your opponent wait for you before and during matches as some type of mind game. Wait, I hear you objecting: it's a competitive sport! Yes, but Nadal violates the sport's rules. This isn't the WWF.

2) He engages in cheating and gamesmanship. Uncle Tony has publicly admitted to coaching Nadal during matches, and even worse, he violates the time rules excessively. Personally, I'd feel like a cheater if I consistently made my opponents wait for me beyond the time allowed by the rules. And I do call on the ATP to enforce the rules.

3) He professes to advocate on behalf of the game when in reality his "solutions" are designed to help his career. He wants slower courts (they're already slow), he wants a shorter season (okay, but lower ranked players need these tournaments--if you want a shorter season, play less), he wants the year ending tournament played on clay (because we have so many fast, indoor tournaments already, right?, he wants umpires who "understand tennis" (i.e. he wants umpires who don't enforce the time rules).

4) The perpetual "underdog" persona. News flash! You're not an underdog in any match you play Rafael Nadal. The knees, the blister, the fatigue--we're over it! It comes across as phony and simple-minded--you haven't been a genuine underdog in years.

That's me most annoying thing from Nadal. He has been playing that excusing-his-persona-game since the start of his career. Plus the constant crying when he has a injury, everytime, at every match he loses.

I'm glad some of the tennis fans are finallly realizing this. It's not new guys, he's been doing it for 10 years.

 

[Chopin]

I also want to add, I'm not a Federer fanatic, and I don't care if people think Nadal is better than him. They're both phenomenal players.

I don't think tennis should be a country club game, by any means; indeed, perhaps what I like most about the modern game is the increased diversity. That said, I do believe in having a code of honor on the tennis court, and that's based on my own experience as a competitive(ish) amateur player and having coached college tennis in the past. No one likes to play someone who makes you wait for him on the court beyond what the rules allow. No one likes to play someone who shuffles his feet loudly right as you're serving, if for no other reason than to distract you. No one likes the player who grunts excessively. I'm not saying that Nadal is always guilty of these things, but he sometimes is; in fact, he often is in terms of taking time.

 

[swordtennis]

Same thoughts here, swordtennis. The game needs some more grace and dignity at the moment. I was reading a Wordsworth sonnet the other day that begins, "Milton! thou shouldst be living at this hour: England hath need of thee" and I couldn't help substituting the name of a number of past greats in there and thinking about the sonnet in terms of tennis.

Beautiful reading. I adore Wordsworth along with Emerson, Whitman, Abbey, Twain, etc....

Just to clarify a few things:

I don't think Nadal is a bad guy and he's obviously generated interest in tennis. So, my comment about him being "bad" for tennis is a little bit more nuanced than how some of you took it. I respect Nadal's abilities and his determination, but we needed a new champion in the sport--someone other than Nadal, Federer, Djokovic or Murray. Given how ecstatic so many people are with Stan winning, I really do think my thread was prescient.

Excellent. It is sad many take our statements as attacks. I have zero problem with the celebrations Nadal crotch humping, Novak shirt ripping, etcc....those things make them all individuals. It is fun.
However the grunting and screaming in males or females is freakish and annoys the fans.

Stanimal is a very nice story.

 

[swordtennis]

I also want to add, I'm not a Federer fanatic, and I don't care if people think Nadal is better than him. They're both phenomenal players. I don't think tennis should be a country club game, by any means; indeed, perhaps what I like most about the modern game is the increased diversity. That said, I do believe in having a code of honor on the tennis court, and that's based on my own experience as a competitive(ish) amateur player and having coached college tennis in the past. No one likes to play someone who wastes time and make you wait for him on the court. No one likes to play someone who shuffles his feet loudly right as you're serving, if for no other reason than to distract you. No one likes the player who grunts excessively. I'm not saying that Nadal is always guilty of these things, but he sometimes is, in fact often with the tennis violations.

You sir do not have to explain yourself.

 

[TheMusicLover]

Epic thread with astute and thoroughly correct statements, Mr. Chopin. I salute you.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Epic thread with astute and thoroughly correct statements, Mr. Chopin. I salute you.

Can't tell if joking or serious or if I'm just misunderstanding.

I remember you being a HOUUUJEE Nadal and Federer fan.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

I also want to add, I'm not a Federer fanatic, and I don't care if people think Nadal is better than him. They're both phenomenal players.

I don't think tennis should be a country club game, by any means; indeed, perhaps what I like most about the modern game is the increased diversity. That said, I do believe in having a code of honor on the tennis court, and that's based on my own experience as a competitive(ish) amateur player and having coached college tennis in the past. No one likes to play someone who makes you wait for him on the court beyond what the rules allow. No one likes to play someone who shuffles his feet loudly right as you're serving, if for no other reason than to distract you. No one likes the player who grunts excessively. I'm not saying that Nadal is always guilty of these things, but he sometimes is; in fact, he often is in terms of taking time.

I've often wondered about this and brought it up once or twice on this forum in the past, and it isn't something I can automatically give Nadal the benefit of the doubt on...

 

[TheMusicLover]

Can't tell if joking or serious or if I'm just misunderstanding.

I remember you being a HOUUUJEE Nadal and Federer fan.

Yes. And I'd still like to be, if only for...

- witnessing that ultimately mistimed MTO Nadal took against Wawrinka during that 2nd set in this final, I can't but acknowledge being totally happy about Wawrinka's fully deserved victory.
Even the more as today it became clear that Nadal's injury was no more than a common muscle strain - something 99% of all tennis players deal with day-by-day.

I just cannot understand WHY Rafa apparently feels the need to apply this kind of ridiculous tactics. My guess is that awful maffioso uncle of his, who apparently thinks that 'winning-whatever-it-takes' is a honourable way to act.
I will cherish the day Rafa will finally decide to dump that despicable character. Alas, not counting on it to happen soon.

Oh and btw, Hi there, N_N!

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Yes. And I'd still like to be, if only for...

- witnessing that ultimately mistimed MTO Nadal took against Wawrinka during that 2nd set in this final, I can't but acknowledge being totally happy about Wawrinka's fully deserved victory.
Even the more as today it became clear that Nadal's injury was no more than a common muscle strain - something 99% of all tennis players deal with day-by-day.

I just cannot understand WHY Rafa apparently feels the need to apply this kind of ridiculous tactics. My guess is that awful maffioso uncle of his, who apparently thinks that 'winning-whatever-it-takes' is a honourable way to act.
I will cherish the day Rafa will finally decide to dump that despicable character. Alas, not counting on it to happen soon.

Oh and btw, Hi there, N_N!

What you've said basically mirrors the kind of things that I've been discussing over a chat application with one of my friends about this match and Nadal's actions. We talked an awful lot about Nadal's uncle, indeed... and the word 'despicable' was used.

Nadal was injured but milked it too much and actually gave up too willingly. The news that it was just a regular back strain that requires very little recovery time was the proverbial nail in the coffin regarding the legitimacy of what occurred in that final.

Was Nadal injured? He most certainly was.

Did Nadal milk it and give up the match much more tamely than he needed to, and in doing so made the match more about him than it was about Stan? I believe he did, yes, and that is not just unfortunate, but a damned shame.

...And hello! You take such long breaks from these tennis forums these days...

 

[Chopin]

I've often wondered about this and brought it up once or twice on this forum in the past, and it isn't something I can automatically give Nadal the benefit of the doubt on...

He's always done it, but I thought he was doing it particularly aggressively in this tournament. I was glad that Stan wasn't intimidated by Rafa and his camp--I loved how chose the bench right across from Rafa's camp.