Can you (accidentally) hit topspin with an open racket face?

tennis_hack

tennis_hack

Banned
What I've found is that when I consciously close my racket face - I have to swing as quickly as I can, and in very steeply upwards, otherwise the ball will never clear the net. Even when it does clear the net it's not by very much.

However, other times I'll swing much less quickly (still a topspin groundstroke) - and the ball goes easily high over the net and in. When this happens does it mean that I've hit topspin with my racket face slightly open beyond perpendicular (relative to the court surface)?

If you're actually hitting with a perpendicular (relative to the court surface) racket face - wouldn't you have to swing extremely fast just to clear the net? It should never be 'easy' to clear the net with a perpendicular racket face - if you swing at a 3/4 pace with a perpendicular racket face, the ball is going to be dumped straight into the ground, isn't it? Perhaps lots of people think they're hitting topspin, but really they're just bunting the ball upwards with an open racket face, and the ball is flat or even has slice?

Finally, is it possible to hit topspin with an open racket face, assuming you still use a topspin swing-path/follow-through?

Those extreme moonballs that Nadal hits - has his racket face sometimes opened beyond perpendicular slightly when he's hit those?
 
You can hit top spin with an open racket face, for example the top spin lob.

The other part of the discussion depends on the speed and trajectory of the oncoming ball off the bounce. If you just hit against a wall after one bounce, the ball will come off the wall going upwards, if contact is made with the ball on the rise. Even more so with a vertical racket face that is moving upwards and into the ball.

Depending on the speed of your swing and the nature of the oncoming ball, you can easily have a slightly closed racket face and still make the ball come off the strings upward and clear the net.

On the other hand, not sure if the friction between ball and strings alone is enough to pull the ball upwards despite the closed racket face. Ie. not sure you can pull a slow and low ball over the net with a closed (or vertical) racket face, just using friction.
 
I mainly hit my groundstroke topspin shots with my racketface perpendicular to court surface. It has more than enough topspin for fast exchange and keeping the ball in.

I could (and used to) use the closed racket face concept but it tend to be complicated cuz I would need alot of low to high action. I would frame the ball more since I am not very disciplined (and I don't want to).
 
user92626 said:
I mainly hit my groundstroke topspin shots with my racketface perpendicular to court surface. It has more than enough topspin for fast exchange and keeping the ball in.

I could (and used to) use the closed racket face concept but it tend to be complicated cuz I would need alot of low to high action. I would frame the ball more since I am not very disciplined (and I don't want to).
Click to expand...

Some people have said that the closed racket face is how Federer achieves a lot of spin despite his swing path being a flattish. I can't understand how that works, because if I swing flattish with a closed racket face, the ball goes straight into the floor.

I have to extremely exaggerate the low to high action, and also swing as fast as I can, and then the ball be barely trickle over the net if I do this.

in other words, the more closed your racket face, the more you exaggerate low to high - the opposite of what people claim Federer is doing.
 
tennis_hack said:
Some people have said that the closed racket face is how Federer achieves a lot of spin despite his swing path being a flattish. I can't understand how that works, because if I swing flattish with a closed racket face, the ball goes straight into the floor.

I have to extremely exaggerate the low to high action, and also swing as fast as I can, and then the ball be barely trickle over the net if I do this.

in other words, the more closed your racket face, the more you exaggerate low to high - the opposite of what people claim Federer is doing.
Click to expand...

of course you cannot hit completely flat. however if the ball is on the rise you can hit the ball with a more closed face and still have it going over.

In table tennis players are taught to hit like this:

-on the rise, more top= more closed bat and flatter swing
-on the fall or less top=less closed face and steeper swing

however this is not as extreme as people think. fed doesn't swing flat and his racket is not extremely closed (most of the closing happens passively at contact because the racket is twisted-I know some will say it twists because he intentionally hits below center but I'm not sure about that).

he might swing at a 40 degree angle with 2 degrees closed on a falling ball and 30 degrees with 10 degrees closed on a rising ball (numbers arbitrary invented). you still need to swing up to hit top and I don't believe you can hit topspin with a really open racketface.
 
sureshs said:
I am unable to visualize that. How is it possible?
Click to expand...

Your racket path is purely from low to high, with minimal forward movement, depending on the distance you wanna hit. The angle of the racket face provides the forward trajectory, and the low to high racket path provides the top spin.
 
tennis_hack said:
Some people have said that the closed racket face is how Federer achieves a lot of spin despite his swing path being a flattish. I can't understand how that works, because if I swing flattish with a closed racket face, the ball goes straight into the floor.
Click to expand...

Fed's swing path isn't flattish; it's shallow. There's a slight difference, because flattish implies a racquet face perpendicular to the ground throughout the swing, and very little low to high.

Most of Fed's "low to high" on his swing comes very near contact, where his violent stretch-shortening in the forearm/shoulder adds a significant upward component in addition to the forward that was built up by the shallow swing path.

Also see this thread, very relevant: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=374137
 
Attila_the_gorilla said:
Your racket path is purely from low to high, with minimal forward movement, depending on the distance you wanna hit. The angle of the racket face provides the forward trajectory, and the low to high racket path provides the top spin.
Click to expand...

Still don't follow. How can an open face going low to high rotate the ball for top spin in the forward direction?
 
Hmmm not sure why that is hard to understand. You can even create top spin by brushing the very bottom of the ball (away from the target) with a fully open racket face. The top spin lob is a much less exaggerated version of this.
 
Attila_the_gorilla said:
You can hit top spin with an open racket face, for example the top spin lob.

The other part of the discussion depends on the speed and trajectory of the oncoming ball off the bounce. If you just hit against a wall after one bounce, the ball will come off the wall going upwards, if contact is made with the ball on the rise. Even more so with a vertical racket face that is moving upwards and into the ball.

Depending on the speed of your swing and the nature of the oncoming ball, you can easily have a slightly closed racket face and still make the ball come off the strings upward and clear the net.

On the other hand, not sure if the friction between ball and strings alone is enough to pull the ball upwards despite the closed racket face. Ie. not sure you can pull a slow and low ball over the net with a closed (or vertical) racket face, just using friction.
Click to expand...

A top spin lob is not hit with an open face. I'd love for you to explain what swing path using an open face at the point of contact would result in a top spin lob.
 
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I do that all the time when my eyes left the ball too early. The grip turned a little and racket face becomes a little open. Since the swing is still from low to high you will get top spin. The effect will be more pronounced if you are hitting off your back foot and leaning backwards a little.

The ball will go high, with not much power, but yet is still a open racket face ts shot. If you purposely hit it high you will get the ts lob.
 
Chotobaka said:
A top spin lob is not hit with an open face. I'd love for you to explain what swing path using an open face at the point of contact would result in a top spin lob.
Click to expand...

Surely I'm being punked here or something. You're joking, right?
 
I have a very good aggressive top spin lob if I may say so myself.
I hit it with a very closed racquet face.
 
Cheetah said:
I have a very good aggressive top spin lob if I may say so myself.
I hit it with a very closed racquet face.
Click to expand...

Well I suppose what a magician can do, tennis players may not.
For mere mortals, it is much easier with an open racket face.
 
Cheetah said:
I have a very good aggressive top spin lob if I may say so myself.
I hit it with a very closed racquet face.
Click to expand...

And those are the operative words. Of course a lob can be hit with an open face, but a true top spin lob is an aggressively hit ball. The swing path, speed and the contact point on the racquet, (swung on-edge with contact missing the first strings on the leading edge of the racquet), is very much like the motion of an inverted kick serve in every respect. Make aggressive contact with an open face and see what direction the ball goes in and how much top it has.
 
Chotobaka said:
And those are the operative words. Of course a lob can be hit with an open face, but a true top spin lob is an aggressively hit ball. The swing path, speed and the contact point on the racquet, (swung on-edge with contact missing the first strings on the leading edge of the racquet), is very much like the motion of an inverted kick serve in every respect. Make aggressive contact with an open face and see what direction the ball goes in and how much top it has.
Click to expand...

yes. and it has heavy spin. kicks hard towards the fence and often bounces out of the courts i play on. Learned it from an atp player at a clinic years ago. Executed it today in fact.

Doesn't take a magician. Just practice.
 
Cheetah said:
yes. and it has heavy spin. kicks hard towards the fence and often bounces out of the courts i play on. Learned it from an atp player at a clinic years ago. Executed it today in fact.

Doesn't take a magician. Just practice.
Click to expand...

Nice. It's a wonderful thing when it kicks over your opponent and then over the fence. For me, best action when a reverse FH finish is the equivalent of the kicker's extreme pronation in this "inverted" shot.
 
Chotobaka said:
Make aggressive contact with an open face and see what direction the ball goes in and how much top it has.
Click to expand...

It's a matter of how fast you swing and how open the racket face is. To achieve the best result, you want a slightly open racket face and a very fast low-to-high swing. That will give you your aggressive top spin lob that kicks sharply out of the court because of the high top spin. And it also clears the bloke at the net.

I've heard this myth a few times now, that you need a closed racket face to hit top spin.
 
Cheetah said:
chotobaka. haha just noticed that. i'm assuming you speak japanese.
Click to expand...

Hai, Nihongo wa sukoshi wakari masu. Demo, watashi wa hakujin desu neh. Oksan wa Nijonjin desu. I barely get by -- nothing more, nothing less. The name fits me. :)
 
Attila_the_gorilla said:
It's a matter of how fast you swing and how open the racket face is. To achieve the best result, you want a slightly open racket face and a very fast low-to-high swing. That will give you your aggressive top spin lob that kicks sharply out of the court because of the high top spin. And it also clears the bloke at the net.

I've heard this myth a few times now, that you need a closed racket face to hit top spin.
Click to expand...

My first analogy was taking the swing path and contact point of a kick serve and inverting it. Another way to look at the mechanics of a true top spin lob is to think of it as a modern top spin forehand, but just on a different (upward) plane. Again, neither of these swing paths and contact points would ever occur with an open racquet face if top spin is the desired effect. But then again, your water goes down the toilet swirling in the wrong direction.
 
Repeating stuff that makes no sense won't make you suddenly correct.
Do you even understand what top spin is? It's the ball rotating forward as it flies in the air. There's no "true" top spin lob. It's either a top spin lob or it isn't.
I suggest you borrow a tennis racket from someone and try brushing up on the back of the ball. You will get topspin regardless if the racket face is open or closed.

Why don't you try and find any tennis literature out there that would validate your view? I own a few books myself and they all promote a slightly closed racket face for the modern top spin forehand. Not for the purpose of top spin, but to keep a lower trajectory, especially when taking heavy balls on the rise.
However, all of these books also agree that the top spin lob should be played with a slightly open racket face. Not to mention just pure common sense. And yes, it is an aggressive shot that tends to be a winner.
 
OK we know the pro's hit topspin forehands with a varying degree of racket face angle, from slightly closed to perpendicular.

But what happens when they hit a topspin motion shot with the racket face slightly open? I'm sure this has happened by accident at least once in the history of pro's hitting topspin groundstrokes. But what is the result when that topspin motion shot with the slightly open racket face is hit?

Does the ball now have slice on it? Is it guaranteed to go out if it was hit with any swing speed? Does it have any topspin on it at all - or is does it turn from a topspin groundstroke into a slice lob just because that racket face was open by a couple of degrees?
 
Attila_the_gorilla said:
Well I suppose what a magician can do, tennis players may not.
For mere mortals, it is much easier with an open racket face.
Click to expand...

rkelley said:
He does, in fact, have an excellent topspin lob. I freakin' hate it, but it's very good.
Click to expand...

Are you sure?
To calculate a lob we can use Tennis Warehouse University - http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/cgi-bin/trajectory_maker.cgi#output.
I calculated two lobs:
1. Open racquet +45°
2. Slightly closed racquet -15°
There are two lobs trajectory: Yellow is open racquet, Red is slightly closed.

s3mxol.jpg


2qwpyj5.jpg


Effective topspin lob can be done with open racquet only. Even slightly closed racquet creates sitters. I just cannot imagine how Cheetah hits high topspin lobs with “very closed racquet face” , video please!!! :)
 
Last edited:
Attila_the_gorilla said:
Hmmm not sure why that is hard to understand. You can even create top spin by brushing the very bottom of the ball (away from the target) with a fully open racket face. The top spin lob is a much less exaggerated version of this.
Click to expand...

Won't this pull the ball towards you (away from the target)?

I think I know what you are talking about. In table tennis, there is a top spin serve which is hit NOT with the paddle to the side, but in front of the body, especially with a penhold grip. It consists of a low to high swipe on the back of the ball with the paddle almost vertical. But look closely, the face will be closed at impact.

I think you are calling an almost vertical face the open face. But open face refers to the angle of the plane of the strings with the ground, whether strings are vertical or horizontal.
 
toly said:
Are you sure?
Click to expand...

Am I sure that he has an excellent topspin lob? Yes. I don't need a calculator to know that the ball goes over my head and then I can't run it down.

Is it hit with an open face? I don't know. A good, offensive top isn't hit that high over the net. Something like 6'-7' over the top of the net. You want it as low as possible though still outside of the player's reach. The idea is that the net player doesn't have time to backup or even jump once they see that it's a lob, then can't run it down once it's passed them.
 
toly said:
Are you sure?
To calculate a lob we can use Tennis Warehouse University - http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/cgi-bin/trajectory_maker.cgi#output.
I calculated two lobs:
1. Open racquet +45°
2. Slightly closed racquet -15°
There are two lobs trajectory: Yellow is open racquet, Red is slightly open.

s3mxol.jpg


2qwpyj5.jpg


Effective topspin lob can be done with open racquet only. Even slightly closed racquet creates sitters. I just cannot imagine how Cheetah hits high topspin lobs with “very closed racquet face” , video please!!! :)
Click to expand...

Why do you call the open face lob a top spin lob? Isn't it just a lob?
 
sureshs said:
Why do you call the open face lob a top spin lob? Isn't it just a lob?
Click to expand...

Let’s analyze Rod Cross formula for topspin magnitude.
33e5x0g.jpg

The amount of topspin is shown in Fig. 6 with the symbol S. Experiments and theoretical estimates both indicate that S is given to a good approximation by

S = 1.45 VA
where S is the spin in rpm, V is the racquet head speed in mph and A is the angle in degrees.

Assume that we want the maximum speed Vmax to increase ball’s speed and topspin.
S = 1.45 Vmax*A
Thus, S (amount of topspin) is defined by only variable A.
What is A?
A is the angle between perpendicular to racquet’s string bed and direction of racquet’s speed V. If we increase A, we automatically increase topspin but decrease translational ball’s speed.
In my example: A = 60° - 45° = 15° and Vmax=60mph, so
S = 1.45 Vmax*A = 1.45*60*15=1305rpm
More accurate calculation gives 2191rpm, see Quick Summary in your post picture. Thus, it is definitely topspin lob.:)
 
Last edited:
toly said:
Let’s analyze Rod Cross formula for topspin magnitude.
33e5x0g.jpg

The amount of topspin is shown in Fig. 6 with the symbol S. Experiments and theoretical estimates both indicate that S is given to a good approximation by

S = 1.45 VA
where S is the spin in rpm, V is the racquet head speed in mph and A is the angle in degrees.

Assume that we want the maximum speed Vmax to increase ball’s speed and topspin.
S = 1.45 Vmax*A
Thus, S (amount of topspin) is defined by only variable A.
What is A?
A is the angle between perpendicular to racquet’s string bed and direction of racquet’s speed V. If we increase A, we automatically increase topspin but decrease translational ball’s speed.
In my example: A = 60° - 45° = 15° and Vmax=60mph, so
S = 1.45 Vmax*A = 1.45*60*15=1305rpm
More accurate calculation gives 2191rpm, see Quick Summary in your post picture. Thus, it is definitely topspin lob.:)
Click to expand...

Open face means normal to strings makes an angle > 0 with the horizontal. It has nothing to do with the above.

If the racket moves down to up with open face, it can hit flat and upwards on the lower side of the ball. How can that cause the ball to spin on its axis to create top spin, except due to slight imbalance effects or residual incoming spin?

In the 2 spring model, top spin occurs when the upper spring (the upper part of the dwell area) compresses more than the lower spring. That is only possible with a closed face or with an open face while pulling the racket towards you.
 
Last edited:
tennis_hack said:
OK we know the pro's hit topspin forehands with a varying degree of racket face angle, from slightly closed to perpendicular.

But what happens when they hit a topspin motion shot with the racket face slightly open? I'm sure this has happened by accident at least once in the history of pro's hitting topspin groundstrokes. But what is the result when that topspin motion shot with the slightly open racket face is hit?

Does the ball now have slice on it? Is it guaranteed to go out if it was hit with any swing speed? Does it have any topspin on it at all - or is does it turn from a topspin groundstroke into a slice lob just because that racket face was open by a couple of degrees?
Click to expand...

Of course not. It will still be a top spin shot but more likely to go long because of the higher trajectory. There's too much forward motion in the shot to keep the high trajectory in play. That's why when u wanna lob, you don't use forward momentum, just low to high movement, and the angle of the open face will give you the distance - and height - you need.

The slice or backspin is not simply achieved with an open racket face. It's a combination of racket face and racket path. You can hit a slice with a closed racket face, if you go from high to low. Of course the ball is likely to end up in the net, depending on the nature of the incoming ball.
 
toly said:
Are you sure?
To calculate a lob we can use Tennis Warehouse University - http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/cgi-bin/trajectory_maker.cgi#output.
I calculated two lobs:
1. Open racquet +45°
2. Slightly closed racquet -15°
There are two lobs trajectory: Yellow is open racquet, Red is slightly closed.

s3mxol.jpg


2qwpyj5.jpg


Effective topspin lob can be done with open racquet only. Even slightly closed racquet creates sitters. I just cannot imagine how Cheetah hits high topspin lobs with “very closed racquet face” , video please!!! :)
Click to expand...


The racket doesn't even need to be that open really, just a slight angle is enough.

You could still adjust the swing angle, which should be more vertical on the top spin lob.
And also the ball angle. If you hit the ball on the rise, you can probably get away with a slightly closed racket face for a lob. In that case, you're basically blocking the ball, with added top spin.
 
Attila_the_gorilla said:
The racket doesn't even need to be that open really, just a slight angle is enough.

You could still adjust the swing angle, which should be more vertical on the top spin lob.
And also the ball angle. If you hit the ball on the rise, you can probably get away with a slightly closed racket face for a lob. In that case, you're basically blocking the ball, with added top spin.
Click to expand...

This is true. I just wanted to show that with extremely open racquet we also can create the same topspin. In next post I’ll demonstrate that again.
 
sureshs said:
Open face means normal to strings makes an angle > 0 with the horizontal. It has nothing to do with the above.

If the racket moves down to up with open face, it can hit flat and upwards on the lower side of the ball. How can that cause the ball to spin on its axis to create top spin, except due to slight imbalance effects or residual incoming spin?

In the 2 spring model, top spin occurs when the upper spring (the upper part of the dwell area) compresses more than the lower spring. That is only possible with a closed face or with an open face while pulling the racket towards you.
Click to expand...

The picture below demonstrates two very different lob’s setup.
300ckk1.jpg

In figure 2 I turned image of figure 1 (except court ground) clockwise by 70 degrees. Due to a ball’s spherical symmetry it doesn’t recognize and doesn’t care about that. But according to Rod Cross spin formula it cares about the A angle and magnitude of the racquet speed. In figures 1 and 2 both these parameters are equal, thus the amount of topspin must be the same.

I calculated these two lobs – pictures below.

2eok1ud.jpg

2agj81d.jpg


There are enormously different ball’s trajectories, but amount of topspins is 1012rpm in both cases, see Quick Summary in last picture. :)
 
toly said:
The picture below demonstrates two very different lob’s setup.
300ckk1.jpg

In figure 2 I turned image of figure 1 (except court ground) clockwise by 70 degrees. Due to a ball’s spherical symmetry it doesn’t recognize and doesn’t care about that. But according to Rod Cross spin formula it cares about the A angle and magnitude of the racquet speed. In figures 1 and 2 both these parameters are equal, thus the amount of topspin must be the same.

I calculated these two lobs – pictures below.

2eok1ud.jpg

2agj81d.jpg


There are enormously different ball’s trajectories, but amount of topspins is 1012rpm in both cases, see Quick Summary in last picture. :)
Click to expand...

To see if top spin is imparted, it is not enough to just specify the direction of swing motion normal to the strings. Which direction is the lateral movement occurring in? In the first picture, it would be bottom to top. In the second picture, it would still have to be bottom to top for top spin, which means the movement is backwards to the direction of the target, yet the strings move forwards. That is physically impossible.
 
Sureshs, you're mistaken about this issue. Hold a racket in your hand with a slighly open racket face. Hit a non-spinning ball with a vertical racket path (even slightly forward if you wanna make sure it's not backwards). As long as there's enough low to high vector in the racket path, the ball will leave your racket forward and upwards, and with good top spin.

This is pretty basic stuff. The topspin is not only due to the strings gripping the ball, but also to one side of the ball receiving a force, while the other side wants to keep falling, resulting in the ball starting to spin. Same thing would happen if you hit the ball with the palm of your hand, which has no strings. Maybe even use a mirror to minimize the effect of friction. Try it, with an open palm, hit upward and forward on a ball, and be amazed at all the topspin you get, while the ball goes forward.

I suspect it's a case of paralysis by analysis. Rather than going with common sense and your experience with the ball, you try to understand things in theory. Both approaches are legitimate, but in a theoretical approach, it's much easier to miss some factors, otherwise you'd see the obvious. I suggest you try to make some practical observations first and then you may realize what has been missing from your theories.

My feeling is that your theory ignores the effect of gravity on the ball when you apply force to it in one point. The ball wants to keep falling due to gravity, but you apply force to one side of the ball (this is a given when you hit the ball with a partially open racket face and a mostly low to high racket path). This asymmetrical force on the ball causes it to spin.
 
Attila_the_gorilla said:
Sureshs, you're mistaken about this issue. Hold a racket in your hand with a slighly open racket face. Hit a non-spinning ball with a vertical racket path (even slightly forward if you wanna make sure it's not backwards). As long as there's enough low to high vector in the racket path, the ball will leave your racket forward and upwards, and with good top spin.

This is pretty basic stuff. The topspin is not only due to the strings gripping the ball, but also to one side of the ball receiving a force, while the other side wants to keep falling, resulting in the ball starting to spin. Same thing would happen if you hit the ball with the palm of your hand, which has no strings. Maybe even use a mirror to minimize the effect of friction. Try it, with an open palm, hit upward and forward on a ball, and be amazed at all the topspin you get, while the ball goes forward.

I suspect it's a case of paralysis by analysis. Rather than going with common sense and your experience with the ball, you try to understand things in theory. Both approaches are legitimate, but in a theoretical approach, it's much easier to miss some factors, otherwise you'd see the obvious. I suggest you try to make some practical observations first and then you may realize what has been missing from your theories.

My feeling is that your theory ignores the effect of gravity on the ball when you apply force to it in one point. The ball wants to keep falling due to gravity, but you apply force to one side of the ball (this is a given when you hit the ball with a partially open racket face and a mostly low to high racket path). This asymmetrical force on the ball causes it to spin.
Click to expand...

I did think about gravity, but I admit I did not pursue it too much. So you are relying on the ball falling down to create a little bit of top spin. I would say the spin would be negligible and cannot be calculated using toly's formula. The other reason why I abandoned the gravity idea is that it requires you to to hit a falling ball - it doesn't produce any top spin if the ball is rising when you hit it.

But even if gravity is taken into account, there will be so little top spin that I don't think it can be called a top spin lob. Any time you tap the ball with your racket, it will have a tiny amount of back spin or top spin. What is more, as the ball is in flight, tiny imbalances with cause spin, like in a knuckleball. I wouldn't agree that these qualify as spin lobs.
 
I hit a lot of topspin shots with an open face. If u have trouble visualizing this, try to topspin a tennis ball with your hand with an open face. It's kinda like after contact, u pull the racket back over your shoulder
 
jakeytennis said:
I hit a lot of topspin shots with an open face. If u have trouble visualizing this, try to topspin a tennis ball with your hand with an open face. It's kinda like after contact, u pull the racket back over your shoulder
Click to expand...

Is the racket moving forward (into the court) or backward at contact?
 
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