Can you hit both flat and slice first serve?
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CAREDDINGTON
Semi-Pro
You have to focus on the toss in accordance with how you are going to hit 'through' the ball. With a flat serve you want your ball toss to be out front into the court around 12 o'clock, hitting through the ball and 'snapping' your wrist. On slice, the toss still needs to be out in front into the court but contact needs to be closer to 1:30 or 2, followed by a greater diagonal wrist 'snapping' angle.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I hit about 90% kickers but can hit flat bombs, typically down the middle, and slice to pull the returner out wide. I learned in the 1970s and I think that most people learned all three serves.
The slice was probably used a lot more way back when as racquets had less inherent power and spin potential. The slice serve was slower and often didn't have topspin with it so it allowed more time to get to the net.
The slice was probably used a lot more way back when as racquets had less inherent power and spin potential. The slice serve was slower and often didn't have topspin with it so it allowed more time to get to the net.
Dragy
Legend
I hit both using same toss, but swing is slightly different. For flat it goes more “up before and into the ball”, for slice it goes a bit “past” the ball to make impact before racquet head flattens out. Important notice - for slice I’ve had issues catching the ball with the farther side edge, so I focus on “entering” with the front edge now, with good result.
probably tossing too far out of your "cylinder" (credit: dougherty)... figure out a toss location that lets you hit without becoming unbalanced (ie. reaching outside your cyclinder)... the toss location will feel very different (and maybe even wrong) - especially if you're so accustomed to tossing "out in front" to hit a fast serve. coach and/or vid would help you.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I can’t hit either very well. Except when they go in.
probably goes hand in hand with balance (eg. throwing while stationary is far more accurate than throwing while leaning off balance - eg. why qb's in football often throw interceptions when forced to throw while being chased out of the pocket).
but even after you find that balance... still need thousands of reps (juniors are serving 20min+ a day which is easily 130k reps by the time they get to college... but that was a quick conservative calculation)
that said, i need to go practice my serve later today
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
probably goes hand in hand with balance (eg. throwing while stationary is far more accurate than throwing while leaning off balance - eg. why qb's in football often throw interceptions when forced to throw while being chased out of the pocket).
but even after you find that balance... still need thousands of reps (juniors are serving 20min+ a day which is easily 130k reps by the time they get to college... but that was a quick conservative calculation)
that said, i need to go practice my serve later today
I like to show up about 15-20 minutes early and hit serves before a practice session. It's a nice way to warm up and concentrate without someone on the other side of the court. My indoor tennis facility is typically empty in the summer so it's peace and quiet.
same.
almost mandatory for me especially before a match.
most folks want to start mini... then get annoyed when i want to start with serves
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
same.
almost mandatory for me especially before a match.
most folks want to start mini... then get annoyed when i want to start with serves
I hate mini. But I accommodate those that want to do it.
i love mini (focus on feet, spacing, and loose whippy brush), but i prio serving first
that said, a highly respected coach i'm friends with, also hates mini, so we typically won't do it... but his strokes are flatter (less windshieldy - so i can see why he doesn't need mini), and he can still put the ball on a dime from the baseline.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
My strokes are flatter as well and I use a racquet with a high swingweight and it takes some effort to take pace off the ball.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I used to hate mini. But now I kind of like it. Partly because I made some tweaks to my forehand so I can control my mini trajectory better.
i can absolutely see why flatter stroke folks (and slicers) don't need mini... especially if (for me), the goal of mini is to feel the timing of the brush ("loose, lag, lift" is what i'm thinking in my mind)
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
You can always give the other person volley practice.
from my coach-friend... when he's warming up, his primary goal is finding his range in depth... to him, mini is an "anti-drill"
he's been on court with guys like ashe... so who am i to question his thinking
now that i'm thinking about it... i wonder if other flat hitters like connors spent much time doing mini...
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
from my coach-friend... when he's warming up, his primary goal is finding his range in depth... to him, mini is an "anti-drill"
he's been on court with guys like ashe... so who am i to question his thinking
He must be at least my age then.
I see very little mini-tennis at my club. More kids than adults. I'm one of the few adults that do it - but only because the person I'm hitting with wants to do it.
Does pronation have a role of balance?
In the is written and said that the role of pronation are spin and acceleration but i feel pronation has a role in balance too.
And in slice serves the pronation is less or more delayed than in flat serves i think.
Hit 'em clean
Semi-Pro
Exaggeration is the key to learning anything. You can hit slow slices that have a lot of bend... often people trying to learn topspin, kick serves, etc. just are trying to jump in and swing fast. You need to focus on the kind of contact... it's a scraping the fuzz off the side of the ball kind of thing (different sound at contact... not a thump). Another thing you have to do is really change your aimpoint over the net. Unlike a flat serve the ball is going to bend so even though I know where I want it to land... I'll aim for a spot in the air over the net that is to the right of my target (I'm a righty) cuz the ball is going to bend to the left. It's a crazy thing your brain does and same thing works in golf. If you aim to a point to the right (if you're a righty) of where you want the ball to land... your brain will instinctively help you shape the shot to land where you want it to.
To learn get crazy and hit easy serves with as much sidespin as possible. Focus on getting the sidespin and don't worry about if it lands in. You have to get a feel and understanding for the flight, contact, etc. to have the confidence to really aim correctly and trust the ball will bend.
I quick tip is trying hitting slice with a low toss... it will force you to go around the ball... just to get a feel. Then you can start raising your toss to normal heights to get more pace. Another quick tip is hitting at around 3 o'clock is a good place to be, but slightly lower or kind of under the ball (4 o'clock) creates more of a skidding slice and can help you clear the net if you find you're clipping the net a lot.
To learn get crazy and hit easy serves with as much sidespin as possible. Focus on getting the sidespin and don't worry about if it lands in. You have to get a feel and understanding for the flight, contact, etc. to have the confidence to really aim correctly and trust the ball will bend.
I quick tip is trying hitting slice with a low toss... it will force you to go around the ball... just to get a feel. Then you can start raising your toss to normal heights to get more pace. Another quick tip is hitting at around 3 o'clock is a good place to be, but slightly lower or kind of under the ball (4 o'clock) creates more of a skidding slice and can help you clear the net if you find you're clipping the net a lot.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I am a shade under 5' 10" so I usually hit flat serves down the middle over the low part of the net from both the ad and deuce courts. I will occasionally go wide on the ad court but percentage goes down. I remember when Justine Henin was playing and they had stats on TV that showed she hit approximately 80% of her 1st serves down the middle over the lowest section of the net.
My focus points are: 1. swing path thru the ball but still a little L to R (I am R handed), and 2. use ISR to open the string more to the ball. My "flat" serve still has a bit of spin because of the slight L to R swing path. My normal 1st serve has a bit of slice and my "flat" serve is simply flatter than my slice. Not to complicate things but my slice and flat serves rotate above the parallel axis. In other words, there a bit of downward spin like an 8 to 2 swing path would create.
My focus points are: 1. swing path thru the ball but still a little L to R (I am R handed), and 2. use ISR to open the string more to the ball. My "flat" serve still has a bit of spin because of the slight L to R swing path. My normal 1st serve has a bit of slice and my "flat" serve is simply flatter than my slice. Not to complicate things but my slice and flat serves rotate above the parallel axis. In other words, there a bit of downward spin like an 8 to 2 swing path would create.
along the lines of exaggeration… goofing with my daughter I had us hit red ball serves… to (a) see the spin (b) see the exaggerated curve when hit properly
I wanted her to see the difference in path between a slice serve (side spin) and a topslice serve (the ball dives down more sharply than the side spin only serve)
the shape of the flight of a red ball is more pronounced/exaggerated than yellow ball.
Most vote is focus on the ball contact point.
I still cannot hit my slice serve to the spot...
I think already a bit change on the racket face angle and i already miss the spot.
I mean it seems for me much harder to hit the spot with the slice serve than with the flat serve, where the racket face is simply (hit the middle of the ball and swing towards the target).
But i have a tennis friend who has very good slice serve and a weak flat serve...
So i am still confused...
Maybe just practise and practise ( i feel i cant practise not enough, i play only once a weak)
I still cannot hit my slice serve to the spot...
I think already a bit change on the racket face angle and i already miss the spot.
I mean it seems for me much harder to hit the spot with the slice serve than with the flat serve, where the racket face is simply (hit the middle of the ball and swing towards the target).
But i have a tennis friend who has very good slice serve and a weak flat serve...
So i am still confused...
Maybe just practise and practise ( i feel i cant practise not enough, i play only once a weak)
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Maybe take a serve lesson or two before you practice a lot? You don’t want to groove bad technique too much.
Of cource if i would have a good coach...i have not a good experience with coaches i can have...a lot of them himself cannot hit both serve convincing...
Dragy
Legend
It’s basically ok that spin serve is less precise, particularly sidespin serve. You usually hit it to the area rather than to the spot, and particularly with wide slice serves it still works because if the trajectory it leaves the court, to the side.
You can achieve pinpoint accuracy when you mastered the serve, it became consistent, and you now land it precisely because you do everything the same staring from toss and your feet position all the way through the swing.
Flat is easier to aim as it goes straight, and you kind of don’t think of missing it long, into the net, or just varied depth of bounce - the same way, like a miss.
Even pros land their serves to an area, if you watch heat maps of serve landing spots.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
In the old days, I just hit plain slice serves and it was strictly to pull the receiver out of the court. It did not have a lot of pace as too much pace could push the ball out. You want a lot of sidespin. With the advent of more powerful racquets in the 1990s, I switched to using the top-slice serve and that was more effective as the top pulled the ball back into the court. The aim point was the sideline on the deuce court about 3 meters from the net. In the ad court, it was to the forehand corner and the idea is that it curls away from the receiver. So it may be that the difficulty is hitting top-slice. In the old days, you learned flat, slice and then top and perhaps that was easier as they were three separate things to learn. These days, slice is really top-slice and that may be a difficult thing to learn instead of learning slice, then top and then merging them together.
Dragy
Legend
I have had an issue with using top-slice to hit wide serves in the deuce court, on clay: it twisted on bounce, returning a bit “in”. More pure slice goes on off the court. But definitely has less margin with the pace I hit it.
find a coach at a junior academy.
they will be busy/hard to get an appointment.
they will be expensive.
but worth it.
else you'll have to spend a bunch of money trying out random (cheaper) coaches, and hopefully get lucky with a good one... it's possible, but harder to find.
Connor35
Professional
I love this . I can hit a big slice out wide pretty reliably, makes people cheat right to their forehand, then save a big flat serve down the T for when you need it (to the deuce court)
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
It's a goal. If I'm playing on a certain indoor court, then it's unreturnable because the ball is in the side net before the returner can get to it. The weakness of such a serve is if someone charges the ball as they can cut it off and hit a winner sharp crosscourt or DTL.
LuckyR
Legend
Well a slice at the T in the deuce court can end up as a nasty jamming body serve to the BH.
Wurm
Professional
Even if you watch Isner in slow motion when hitting a first serve the path his racket goes through the ball is obviously not intended to hit it dead flat, and that's someone who's tall enough that he could hit the ball like that and land it in with a decent margin for error (and he does hit the ball down on impact). However, he will have learned how to serve when he was nowhere as tall as he is now and he developed excellent technique whilst he was at it.
As for the original question, I visualise how the racket is going to go through the ball to get the desired spin and direction and if I do that there's a high chance I'll put the ball toss about where it needs to to support that strike. If I approach it by thinking about where I want to place the ball toss then it rarely goes well as I'm just no good at trying to explicitly place my ball toss for a specific contact point... it has to happen as a by-product of other thought processes.
I'm not sure if the poll means contact point of racket and ball or where the ball is intended to land...
Contact point of the racket on the ball
tennis4me
Hall of Fame
I used to slice my serve wide by hitting the side of the ball with no pronation. The 'problem' with this type of slice is that it lacks pace, because the motion is mostly slice (brushing) and not much forward momentum.
Then one day, I was watching an ex-Pro friend played some friendly doubles and hit this skidding deuce court slicer. I asked him how he hit those and he explained that he created the slice by hitting the side of the ball WITH pronation.
I've tried this on and off over the years, but couldn't reproduce it reliably because I don't practice it enough. When you hit one correctly, you can hear and see the difference.
Then one day, I was watching an ex-Pro friend played some friendly doubles and hit this skidding deuce court slicer. I asked him how he hit those and he explained that he created the slice by hitting the side of the ball WITH pronation.
I've tried this on and off over the years, but couldn't reproduce it reliably because I don't practice it enough. When you hit one correctly, you can hear and see the difference.
tennis4me
Hall of Fame
My suggestion to try what I said above is to practice from half court and hold the racquet closer to the neck. Toss the ball and try to hit a slice with pronation. Remember that motion when you feel you've hit it correctly. Then gradually move back to baseline and hold your racquet like your regular grip.
Hope you find a new favorite slice serve! Good luck!
Hope you find a new favorite slice serve! Good luck!
After a lot of experiment i think there are more diferenz in the flat and slice serves.
For example where to hit the ball and swing path both for sure.
For me the diferenz is even bigger, my flat serve toss and swing are both decent but slice serve toss is already a problem. ( if my toss succeed decent, the swing seems to be a lesser problem...)
/ i have no decent coach and i would not like to share a video/
For example where to hit the ball and swing path both for sure.
For me the diferenz is even bigger, my flat serve toss and swing are both decent but slice serve toss is already a problem. ( if my toss succeed decent, the swing seems to be a lesser problem...)
/ i have no decent coach and i would not like to share a video/
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Something I used to do as a teenager would be to sit on the sofa in the living room with a TV show on and practice my serve toss.
When I warm up serves, I've been lately hitting easy slice serves. I toss the ball over my head and just take a slow, easy swing that's more sideways than forward. The ball doesn't have a lot of pace but the idea is just to warm up.
When I warm up serves, I've been lately hitting easy slice serves. I toss the ball over my head and just take a slow, easy swing that's more sideways than forward. The ball doesn't have a lot of pace but the idea is just to warm up.
