Can you improve playing only twice a week?

[Traffic]

In light of some recent posts, I wanted to bring back a discussion that started earlier this summer by a very profound TW contributor. I need to give credit to @TimeToPlaySets for the original post:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-strokes-playing-2x-a-week-wont-do-it.591728/
that started the discussion. Of course as many posts in this forum do, the topic derailed and it's rather difficult to sift through the nuggets and chafe.

I, myself, have been on a journey of improvement having picked up the sport again a couple years ago following a long duration of playing off and on...mostly off. But at some point, my son's tennis game improved to the point that we had competitive matches but quickly transitioned to me being left in the dust.

I've worked pretty hard at improving over the last year. I bought expensive racquets and tried all sorts of different strings. Surely I could purchase the right combo of equipment that could give me a 1.0 NTRP boost. Well, whatever gain I saw was only temporary Band-Aid. It masked a few things, but did not cure the more fundamental problem.

But sometime in Spring, I joined Flights at my club and started attending drills classes and even joined the club's USTA team. The first two months was brutal with me making so many errors it was maddening. But over the next several months, I was able to stabilize, clean up my UEs and DFs.

But looking back, it did take playing 3-4x a week with a combination of drills, practice, and yes, a few private lessons sprinkled here and there.

Now recently, I responded to a poster that played against a previous college player and top ranked junior. And I estimated the amount of hours he invested into tennis to have his game at such a high (jr)level. Since he's not training as hard anymore, he regresses back to a level that he can maintain with minimal effort. Sort of like riding a bike. You can still be a good rider with deep inherent skills that are dull but can quickly be refined to a higher level. But you are still going to suck compared to a current CAT3 racer.

So it seems, there is no real short cut for improvement.

Now, you can play 4-5x a week and make significant improvements in 2-3years. But if you spread that 4-5x a week out to 2x a week, it's gonna take you more than 4-6yrs (linear) to achieve the same level. In fact, there may be some factor that takes it out even 6-9yrs to reach that same level.

This summer, I cut my play back to about 1x a week due to schedule conflicts. And yup, I regressed.

So, in agreement with TTPS, playing 2x a week may sustain my level. But a sustained 3+ times a week is needed to see any real improvement.

 

[iChen]

Well I think 2 times a week will still take not only the extra years but still also not achieve it maybe. After all unless you go into practice with a plan, 2x a week to improve isn't enough to really see or feel. But it depends on what level you're at also and what you're looking to attain. Stuff like 4.0 lowering UE for example might need a lot of hitting. Compare to a beginner looking for solid strokes, 2 might be enough. But of course more is best to really just move into more muscle memory movement territory and then consciously improving the details like placement, spin, speed of racquet swing and etc. then yeah it takes a lot more effort.

 

[ChaelAZ]

In general, the more you can practice the better you will be.

I disagree that on the amount of time you need practice is a magical 3x a week or more. Given that effort, direction, ability, and focus are the same, you would progress just doing it twice a week. Throw in age though and you are fighting other factors to just maintain. Conversely, my son did not want to touch a tennis racquet this summer and hit just twice in 2.5 months. He worked on fitness though a few times per week and his first day back showed a ton of on court performance improvements. So there are many aspects of improvement there as well.

I did crap for fitness work and my play dropped even though I was hitting 3-4 times per week (not a ton of focus, direction, and just practice efforts), so I am back playing down for the moment. Last few weeks of practice show progress though and first matches are tonight and Monday. Will see how it goes and develop a better plan getting back on track.

 

[Traffic]

In general, the more you can practice the better you will be.

I disagree that on the amount of time you need practice is a magical 3x a week or more. Given that effort, direction, ability, and focus are the same, you would progress just doing it twice a week. Throw in age though and you are fighting other factors to just maintain. Conversely, my son did not want to touch a tennis racquet this summer and hit just twice in 2.5 months. He worked on fitness though a few times per week and his first day back showed a ton of on court performance improvements. So there are many aspects of improvement there as well.

I did crap for fitness work and my play dropped even though I was hitting 3-4 times per week (not a ton of focus, direction, and just practice efforts), so I am back playing down for the moment. Last few weeks of practice show progress though and first matches are tonight and Monday. Will see how it goes and develop a better plan getting back on track.

I often consider fitness as a "skill". I was trying to improve my reaction time and getting an early jump on the ball. And I was noticing how much more winded and tired I was after an hour of play.

Yes. I agree with you that you can be working on different facets of your game. Strokes are one of them. Fitness another. Etc...

I also agree that an arbitrary 2 or a 3x a week doesn't work for everyone.

But does time on TW count towards the hrs/week?

 

[iChen]

Yeah fitness and stamina is another. While I do only play 3-4 times a week, I do a lot of footwork drills I guess that I don't count but maybe it should.

 

[VoodooChild24]

In general, the more you can practice the better you will be.

I disagree that on the amount of time you need practice is a magical 3x a week or more. Given that effort, direction, ability, and focus are the same, you would progress just doing it twice a week. Throw in age though and you are fighting other factors to just maintain. Conversely, my son did not want to touch a tennis racquet this summer and hit just twice in 2.5 months. He worked on fitness though a few times per week and his first day back showed a ton of on court performance improvements. So there are many aspects of improvement there as well.

I did crap for fitness work and my play dropped even though I was hitting 3-4 times per week (not a ton of focus, direction, and just practice efforts), so I am back playing down for the moment. Last few weeks of practice show progress though and first matches are tonight and Monday. Will see how it goes and develop a better plan getting back on track.

I agree that fitness is a major factor in game performance. We all pretty much know and have all the shots that we want to take but if your fitness prohibits you from being in the right place to hit these shots, UE galore.

I am pretty much guilty of this too and I noticed that my level of play dropped, shot selection suffers, decision making impaired once I get very tired.

 

[coupergear]

In light of some recent posts, I wanted to bring back a discussion that started earlier this summer by a very profound TW contributor. I need to give credit to @TimeToPlaySets for the original post:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-strokes-playing-2x-a-week-wont-do-it.591728/
that started the discussion. Of course as many posts in this forum do, the topic derailed and it's rather difficult to sift through the nuggets and chafe.

I, myself, have been on a journey of improvement having picked up the sport again a couple years ago following a long duration of playing off and on...mostly off. But at some point, my son's tennis game improved to the point that we had competitive matches but quickly transitioned to me being left in the dust.

I've worked pretty hard at improving over the last year. I bought expensive racquets and tried all sorts of different strings. Surely I could purchase the right combo of equipment that could give me a 1.0 NTRP boost. Well, whatever gain I saw was only temporary Band-Aid. It masked a few things, but did not cure the more fundamental problem.

But sometime in Spring, I joined Flights at my club and started attending drills classes and even joined the club's USTA team. The first two months was brutal with me making so many errors it was maddening. But over the next several months, I was able to stabilize, clean up my UEs and DFs.

But looking back, it did take playing 3-4x a week with a combination of drills, practice, and yes, a few private lessons sprinkled here and there.

Now recently, I responded to a poster that played against a previous college player and top ranked junior. And I estimated the amount of hours he invested into tennis to have his game at such a high (jr)level. Since he's not training as hard anymore, he regresses back to a level that he can maintain with minimal effort. Sort of like riding a bike. You can still be a good rider with deep inherent skills that are dull but can quickly be refined to a higher level. But you are still going to suck compared to a current CAT3 racer.

So it seems, there is no real short cut for improvement.

Now, you can play 4-5x a week and make significant improvements in 2-3years. But if you spread that 4-5x a week out to 2x a week, it's gonna take you more than 4-6yrs (linear) to achieve the same level. In fact, there may be some factor that takes it out even 6-9yrs to reach that same level.

This summer, I cut my play back to about 1x a week due to schedule conflicts. And yup, I regressed.

So, in agreement with TTPS, playing 2x a week may sustain my level. But a sustained 3+ times a week is needed to see any real improvement.

Yeah, definitely no shortcuts. I think there is truth to the "maintenance" vs "improve" idea. But like anything, really depends on who you are and where you're trying to go. The learning curve flattens out as you get better, no matter what your natural ability/athleticism, or how much you practice. The never before played tennis person is going to make huge strides playing 2x a week. But the person trying to get from 4.0 to 4.5 or 5.0? They could spend huge time and money and not budge off of 4.0---maybe they're at their ceiling at 4.0--a level that seems to be stall point in development for many.

NYTA has said a couple times how impressed he is with TTPS jump in level after not that much time. IMO this is not so unusual. Even a DIY guy is going to jump in levels very quickly. We see these videos, some dude out in a trailer park and he has put together a pretty decent looking forehand on his own--granted tons of other stuff missing, but the point remains--nothing to something can seem impressive. To me TTPS first couple years aren't the deal--it will be the 3rd or 4th. When he gets to 3.5, 4ish. What happens then? Assuming he stays devoted with time and resources, can he get off of 4.0?

I'm a ski instructor, you take a strong athletic 10yo kid who's never skied, by the end of the day they can wide-track some decent looking basic parallel turns and get down some easy intermediate runs. However, fast forward to the middle aged eternal intermediate "groomer zoomer" who skids their turns and is always stuck at that blue square level, their ability has not advanced much beyond the 10yo even with decades of skiing, with lessons and many reps, they never get the more nuanced details to be able to ski well in bumps, powder or steeps.

So unfortunately (for the math minded) every situation is unique and different, no set formula or rules, no magic schedule to guarantee improvement, and while yes, up to a point, more practice = improvement, at some point this ceases to be the case. Everyone goes on to the maintenance plan.

So the million dollar question (or at least whatever it costs for the latest online tennis tutorial "fix my game" subscription) is whether you're at that plateau, and if so, can you push past it? Have you come up against the law of diminishing returns?

 

[Notirouswithag]

Depending on what you do with that period 2x per week maybe. I can not pick up a racquet for a few weeks/months and then jump into the cardio tennis class we offer and I occasionally teach twice per week and get by barely putting in any effort, manage to hit a decent amount of shots that I can maneuver and place, but miss the simple shots(overhead, etc)

If I were to try and do that with our mens workout program(4.5-5.5) I'd get my ass handed to me but I'd love the motivation to get back and work on my timing. It's all abou tadaptabillity and quality up to a sense

 

[coupergear]

I agree that fitness is a major factor in game performance. We all pretty much know and have all the shots that we want to take but if your fitness prohibits you from being in the right place to hit these shots, UE galore.

I am pretty much guilty of this too and I noticed that my level of play dropped, shot selection suffers, decision making impaired once I get very tired.

True, but in general I think better strokes trump fitness in tennis, especially at the rec level, and especially doubles. Yes, if you believe you've maxed out improvement of your strokes (see above million dollar question), the only path to improve your game will be to improve fitness and court speed. But the Ntrp levels do not include a fitness component--they know that control of the ball is what creates a better player, not outstanding fitness. If you have 4.0 strokes and have superior courts peed, you're still only going to beat a fat 4.5 occasionally.

 

[Traffic]

Yeah, definitely no shortcuts. I think there is truth to the "maintenance" vs "improve" idea. But like anything, really depends on who you are and where you're trying to go. The learning curve flattens out as you get better, no matter what your natural ability/athleticism, or how much you practice. The never before played tennis person is going to make huge strides playing 2x a week. But the person trying to get from 4.0 to 4.5 or 5.0? They could spend huge time and money and not budge off of 4.0---maybe they're at their ceiling at 4.0--a level that seems to be stall point in development for many.

NYTA has said a couple times how impressed he is with TTPS jump in level after not that much time. IMO this is not so unusual. Even a DIY guy is going to jump in levels very quickly. We see these videos, some dude out in a trailer park and he has put together a pretty decent looking forehand on his own--granted tons of other stuff missing, but the point remains--nothing to something can seem impressive. To me TTPS first couple years aren't the deal--it will be the 3rd or 4th. When he gets to 3.5, 4ish. What happens then? Assuming he stays devoted with time and resources, can he get off of 4.0?

I'm a ski instructor, you take a strong athletic 10yo kid who's never skied, by the end of the day they can wide-track some decent looking basic parallel turns and get down some easy intermediate runs. However, fast forward to the middle aged eternal intermediate "groomer zoomer" who skids their turns and is always stuck at that blue square level, their ability has not advanced much beyond the 10yo even with decades of skiing, with lessons and many reps, they never get the more nuanced details to be able to ski well in bumps, powder or steeps.

So unfortunately (for the math minded) every situation is unique and different, no set formula or rules, no magic schedule to guarantee improvement, and while yes, up to a point, more practice = improvement, at some point this ceases to be the case.

So the million dollar question (or at least whatever it costs for the latest online tennis tutorial "fix my game" subscription) is whether you're at that plateau, and if so, can you push past it? Have you come up against the law of diminishing returns?

I totally agree with you on the ski analogie and you can play/practice for 10yrs and not improve any. I'm your living example of skiing 4-5x a year and never improving. I think you need like 2 seasons of skiing at least twice a week. And even then, my 10y/o will be bombing down double diamonds whereas I'll have a nice form and confidence on hard blue runs, but just not able to pull off dd's due to my physical limitations.

Now one thing I do want to point out is that TTPS emphasized needing private coaching vs just going out and hitting 5x a week. And I think this is a really good point. It wasn't until I saw a video of my own playing that I was able to "see" some of the stuff I was not doing correctly. And it hit me harder than anyone else (even a coach) telling me. Practice makes permanent. (not perfect)

One thing with online coaching and such, there is not a trained eye to see what/how I'm hitting incorrectly and work with me on ways to correct it. I suppose an open mind can some discipline could lead to improvement without the coaches eye, but probably require a lot more effort on the part of the player.

 

[coupergear]

I totally agree with you on the ski analogie and you can play/practice for 10yrs and not improve any. I'm your living example of skiing 4-5x a year and never improving. I think you need like 2 seasons of skiing at least twice a week. And even then, my 10y/o will be bombing down double diamonds whereas I'll have a nice form and confidence on hard blue runs, but just not able to pull off dd's due to my physical limitations.

Now one thing I do want to point out is that TTPS emphasized needing private coaching vs just going out and hitting 5x a week. And I think this is a really good point. It wasn't until I saw a video of my own playing that I was able to "see" some of the stuff I was not doing correctly. And it hit me harder than anyone else (even a coach) telling me. Practice makes permanent. (not perfect)

One thing with online coaching and such, there is not a trained eye to see what/how I'm hitting incorrectly and work with me on ways to correct it. I suppose an open mind can some discipline could lead to improvement without the coaches eye, but probably require a lot more effort on the part of the player.

Totally agree on video and coaching, very important. But to my mind, still mostly for getting the low-hanging fruit if you're already at the intermediate 4.0. 4.5 level. For lower level players--yes you will reap benefits much more quickly with coaching. But assuming a 3.5 4.0 or 4.5 (which seems to be where many of us hover) , everything looks ok on film, no big glaring problems. In fact, it can be tough to do movement analysis of 4.0. Harder to point out what is going wrong, much more nuanced. It's close, very close, but not quite there. It's little tweaks, and often these are much more difficult for the player to change, even if pointed out. LIke my serve, I feel like i'm trying to make big changes, in my head I"m doing some radical stuff with my stroke...i look at the video, looks the same as all my other serves from before. It's uncanny. So you get into that issue of knowing issue but not able to fix it.

 

[navigator]

Yeah, definitely no shortcuts. I think there is truth to the "maintenance" vs "improve" idea. But like anything, really depends on who you are and where you're trying to go. The learning curve flattens out as you get better, no matter what your natural ability/athleticism, or how much you practice. The never before played tennis person is going to make huge strides playing 2x a week. But the person trying to get from 4.0 to 4.5 or 5.0? They could spend huge time and money and not budge off of 4.0---maybe they're at their ceiling at 4.0--a level that seems to be stall point in development for many.

NYTA has said a couple times how impressed he is with TTPS jump in level after not that much time. IMO this is not so unusual. Even a DIY guy is going to jump in levels very quickly. We see these videos, some dude out in a trailer park and he has put together a pretty decent looking forehand on his own--granted tons of other stuff missing, but the point remains--nothing to something can seem impressive. To me TTPS first couple years aren't the deal--it will be the 3rd or 4th. When he gets to 3.5, 4ish. What happens then? Assuming he stays devoted with time and resources, can he get off of 4.0?

Agreed, plus... I suspect that any over-30 adult that's been at 4.0/4.5 for a few years can maintain that basic skill level playing 2x per week, although fitness is another issue. However, virtually no adult that's been playing for several years is going to materially improve from 4.0/4.5 without a serious effort - not just playing 4x-5x per week. It will take more than that. And at best, no matter what you do, you're probably looking at a 0.5 point NTRP improvement, which is big from that starting point. Beginners can improve quickly even just playing a couple of times per week. The better you are and the longer you've been playing, the more effort it takes just to make a tiny incremental improvement. Of the dozens of "serious" players I know I'm only aware of one guy over the last several years that's improved from a weakish-5.0 to a strong 5.0/borderline 5.5 (let's round up and call it a 1/2 point of NTRP improvement). One. And it took a (laudable) herculean effort (including 6 months at an academy in Spain).

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I'm a ski instructor, you take a strong athletic 10yo kid who's never skied, by the end of the day they can wide-track some decent looking basic parallel turns and get down some easy intermediate runs. However, fast forward to the middle aged eternal intermediate "groomer zoomer" who skids their turns and is always stuck at that blue square level, their ability has not advanced much beyond the 10yo even with decades of skiing, with lessons and many reps, they never get the more nuanced details to be able to ski well in bumps, powder or steeps.

great analogy.
i was a snowboard instructor in a different life.

I was often asked "How'd you get so good in 5 years?" (they've been been snowboarding for 10 or more)
Ignoring genetics, athletic ability, etc... the typical conversation after boiled down to 2 questions:

* Q:How many times a year do you ski? A:2 weeks
Me: In the last 5y I spent all my 4w of vac time at the mountain, plus every weekend... so i'm easily getting 60d+ for the last 4y
This last year (because I got laid off from a failed startup, and postponed growing up for a year by living on the mtn and being a snowboard bum), i was able to get close to 100d
So basically in 1y i matched "10y of riding - going 2w a year". (but let's ignore interrupted training vs. continuous daily training for the moment, because you'll make more progress snowboarding 10d in a row vs. 5wknds in a year)

* Q: how often do you fall? A: i try to never fall
Me: my motto is "if you're not falling, you're not trying" (ie. to do new things to improve your riding: eg. riding switch, trying to make clean turn lines, test how low you can go on your turn, riding easy sections with your eyes closed, doing jumps, experimenting with stance/binding setup, tricks, etc...)

I recall one teen kid that had chip on his shoulder because he was with a bunch of beginners (and we weren't getting off the green trail), and he wasn't gonna learn anything... challenged him to ride switch (after i showed him i could beat him down with my switch stance, when he was going regular).
He came back the next day eager for more... then gave him a drill to do "180's" all the way down the mountain.

anywho, the point of my story, if you've read this far.... is you can accomplish quite alot in a short time frame with intense focus, and deliberate practice.

most folks skip the deliberate part, and reinforce the stuff they are good at (ie. hitting from with 2ft of the center hash... not chasing down balls near the sideline,... forget about hitting balls in the doubles alley or beyond), because they don't want to look bad.
i get the time commitment,... but while i can only play 2x (3x max) a week of scheduled practice time, i've been able to get out with the bucket (or go to wall), and hit an hour of serves bringing my practice tally to easily 10h a week (eg. 6-7x a week). yeah, it's boring and not as fun as bashing groundies from the middle of the baseline, but critical for improvement (ie. winning games to bump up my NTRP)

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

2x a week is probably enough to maintain your game.
You will never correct strokes playing 2x a week.
No competitive player on the planet has reached 5.0 by playing 2x a week.
Just casually playing tennis is not going to cut it.
There are countless people who play 5x a week and suck.
And they will die still sucking, and have atrocious looking serves, volleys, and overheads.

I am talking to get to the point where your strokes look like 4.5
Or maybe a 4.0 with inconsistent 4.5 strokes.

You can get to 4.0 and have ugly strokes and no coaching.
You just need to play for years and be consistent with your crap strokes.
There are many styles of 4.0
Some 4.0s are just super consistent 3.5 style players, so to speak (no offense, no net game, dink serve, etc) They bunt and slice and never miss. You miss. And you lose.
Other 4.0 have big pretty strokes, and the full package, but are inconsistent. This guy got coaching to get his good looking strokes.
So, it depends on what kind of player you aim to be.

Once you have your strokes, then go play 5x a week for consistency.
But, you will never get 4.5 looking strokes without coaching.
Maybe there are exceptions to the rule, but I'll play the odds.
There is just way to much that is simply unnatural that you would never do unless told.
And being told something is 1% of the solution. It takes MONTHS to make a habit.

I agree with the skiing analogy of concentrated time.

However, these are vastly different sports, and learning curves can't be compared.
Snowboarding is not a precision sport.
You don't wipe out if your elbow or head is changed by a few inches or degrees.
In tennis, that might mean you blast the ball over the fence.
Snowboard mechanics do not need to be strict.
Tennis needs to be surgeon caliber accurate.
You don't need a jogging coach.
You do need a tennis coach.

Fitness means nothing if you have junk strokes.
You can be an iron man and bunt the ball with a frying pan serve and have no backhand.
Mechanics are everything in tennis. Hence, coaching.

To me TTPS first couple years aren't the deal--it will be the 3rd or 4th. When he gets to 3.5, 4ish. What happens then? Assuming he stays devoted with time and resources, can he get off of 4.0?

I'm already at 3.5 In fact, I started this process already as a 3.5.
3 months later, I am now playing against 4.0s and often get to deuce, with some sets going to tie breaker.
My goal is to play at the 4.0 level. Refine my volleys, learn court positioning, etc.
But,that will be the end of the road for me. Getting to 4.5 would require sustained dedication that I am not willing to do (opportunity cost)
So, these discussions of getting to 4.5 or 5.0 are moot.
I am only speaking about what it takes to get from an untrained "raw" 3.5 to a "good looking" 4.0 with a full package game (good serve, good 2nd, good ROS, good approach, good volley, good overhead)
To be a slicer/hacker/junkball 4.0, you just need to play a lot for a lot of years (consistency beats pretty but unreliable strokes)

 

[mcs1970]

Quality of practice matters more than quantity. As nyta said if your practice is deliberate and focused, you'll make great progress, compared to someone who is practicing 5 days a week but just reinforcing the wrong things. In a given week, 2 days of focused practice, 1 match to get the feedback loop , and 3 days of hitting the gym is a great recipe for a lot of quick improvement for any adult player.

 

[coupergear]

2x a week is probably enough to maintain your game.
You will never correct strokes playing 2x a week.
No competitive player on the planet has reached 5.0 by playing 2x a week.
Just casually playing tennis is not going to cut it.
There are countless people who play 5x a week and suck.
And they will die still sucking, and have atrocious looking serves, volleys, and overheads.

I am talking to get to the point where your strokes look like 4.5
Or maybe a 4.0 with inconsistent 4.5 strokes.

You can get to 4.0 and have ugly strokes and no coaching.
You just need to play for years and be consistent with your crap strokes.
There are many styles of 4.0
Some 4.0s are just super consistent 3.5 style players, so to speak (no offense, no net game, dink serve, etc) They bunt and slice and never miss. You miss. And you lose.
Other 4.0 have big pretty strokes, and the full package, but are inconsistent. This guy got coaching to get his good looking strokes.
So, it depends on what kind of player you aim to be.

Once you have your strokes, then go play 5x a week for consistency.
But, you will never get 4.5 looking strokes without coaching.
Maybe there are exceptions to the rule, but I'll play the odds.
There is just way to much that is simply unnatural that you would never do unless told.
And being told something is 1% of the solution. It takes MONTHS to make a habit.

I agree with the skiing analogy of concentrated time.

However, these are vastly different sports, and learning curves can't be compared.
Snowboarding is not a precision sport.
You don't wipe out if your elbow or head is changed by a few inches or degrees.
In tennis, that might mean you blast the ball over the fence.
Snowboard mechanics do not need to be strict.
Tennis needs to be surgeon caliber accurate.
You don't need a jogging coach.
You do need a tennis coach.

Fitness means nothing if you have junk strokes.
You can be an iron man and bunt the ball with a frying pan serve and have no backhand.
Mechanics are everything in tennis. Hence, coaching.

To me TTPS first couple years aren't the deal--it will be the 3rd or 4th. When he gets to 3.5, 4ish. What happens then? Assuming he stays devoted with time and resources, can he get off of 4.0?

I'm already at 3.5 In fact, I started this process already as a 3.5.
3 months later, I am now playing against 4.0s and often get to deuce, with some sets going to tie breaker.
My goal is to play at the 4.0 level. Refine my volleys, learn court positioning, etc.
But,that will be the end of the road for me. Getting to 4.5 would require sustained dedication that I am not willing to do (opportunity cost)
So, these discussions of getting to 4.5 or 5.0 are moot.
I am only speaking about what it takes to get from an untrained "raw" 3.5 to a "good looking" 4.0 with a full package game (good serve, good 2nd, good ROS, good approach, good volley, good overhead)
To be a slicer/hacker/junkball 4.0, you just need to play a lot for a lot of years (consistency beats pretty but unreliable strokes)

Ah, sad to see you're bailing already. Copping out at 4.0? No mas? Who's gonna buy all the coaching and online tutorials? Who's gonna argue about 6 foot net clearance? C'mon, maybe you have the talent to get to 5.5 without much extra sustained dedication--you'll blast past the stall zone--a natural. Don't sell yourself short.

I don't know snowboarding, I'm a skier, but from what I can tell, I agree, it's sloppy and imprecise, a bunch of yahoo knuckle draggers! But that really wasn't my point, could have been golf, or table tennis, or bowling--my analogy of skiing was to point out that there is a law of diminishing returns in sports. A bell curve of ability levels. Moving to the right along that bell curve gets damn tough.

 

[coupergear]

most folks skip the deliberate part, and reinforce the stuff they are good at (ie. hitting from with 2ft of the center hash... not chasing down balls near the sideline,... forget about hitting balls in the doubles alley or beyond), because they don't want to look bad.
i get the time commitment,... but while i can only play 2x (3x max) a week of scheduled practice time, i've been able to get out with the bucket (or go to wall), and hit an hour of serves bringing my practice tally to easily 10h a week (eg. 6-7x a week). yeah, it's boring and not as fun as bashing groundies from the middle of the baseline, but critical for improvement (ie. winning games to bump up my NTRP)

Great point, I relate. Another analogy, music. I love to play trumpet, it's fun. But invariably, I play the same tunes over and over. Even work the same scales, the ones I'm fast at. I like to do "play along" books where you have a backing band track and you play the melody (equivalent of bashing forehands). I'm not that good at sightreading, but I can memorize pretty well, and play through jazz standards OK. It's all comfort zone stuff. It's fun, feels good. Pushing into unusual scales or patterns, trying to read new music, working on extending range? Painful, ugly, embarassing! For me, I'm that eternal intermediate. Not worth it to me to really bear down and focus on weaknesses, because in the end, to what purpose? I'm no Chuck Mangione. I'm no Roger Federer. I'm not even Jeff Salzenstein!

 

[GuyClinch]

It's not so simple. It varies. There is no simplistic rule of thumb - despite what people like TTPS think.

2x is more then enough to improve - IF YOU ARE VERY BAD AT TENNIS. If you are 2.5 2x a week can get you up to 3.0 - no problem. LIkely you don't play tennis or have barely played. On the other hand if you are very good say 5.5 - then even playing 7x a week with daily coaching might not get you to 6.0.

For every tennis player there is a kind of hidden equation.. We don't know the exact numbers without doing some kind of insane experiment..

But we can guess at the factors.. It works like this.

OldLevel + ImproveRate X HoursOfPractice = NewLevel

But improvement rate is defined by your current level, your athleticism, and the quality of practice (coached vs. uncoached) for example.

So lets say you are a 3.0 - you are going to play 100hours of tennis this next year. You have average athletic ability and are coached 20% of the time by a competent coach.

Sample numbers (totally unproven - made up weightings).

3.0 + .5(Athleticism)*.2(Coaching)*.03(difficulty factor)*(100hrs) = 3.3 (1 year improvement)..

For a good athlete numbers might be different. For a poor athlete who is already decent at tennis they could hit a wall. With zero coaching improvement is going to be slow as well..depending on what level you are at.. Lots of factors.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I am specifically talking about going from 3.5 to 4.0/4.5

Go buy a racket at the store, congrats, you're now a 3.0

Zero coaching needed to be a 3.5. Anyone with a pulse and basic coordination can get to 3.5 by putting in some basic playing time and learning to spin the ball. Most players who play more than a few years are basically a 3.5 and few have taken sustained lessons. That is that is the vast majority of the non-bell curve in tennis.

Almost no one makes it to having 4.5 looking strokes (Or rise to an inconsistent 4.0 with 4.5 looking strokes who doesn't push/bunt/junk) To do that, you need to DRILL BABY DRILL the new strokes

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Quality of practice matters more than quantity. As nyta said if your practice is deliberate and focused, you'll make great progress, compared to someone who is practicing 5 days a week but just reinforcing the wrong things. In a given week, 2 days of focused practice, 1 match to get the feedback loop , and 3 days of hitting the gym is a great recipe for a lot of quick improvement for any adult player.

5 days of deliberate supervised practice is needed to make it stick.
This is why IMG exists.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

You absolutely can. Practising stuff and fixing elements of strokes from youtube videos you can make serious progress in just one session. Watching Jeff Salzenstein's serve video and then taking some balls and trying it out my serve was miles better afterwards.

You can't make gains like that consistently though unless you can continue to identify areas of you game that are broken and fix them easily.

 

[mcs1970]

5 days of deliberate supervised practice is needed to make it stick.
This is why IMG exists.

I didn't think this thread was about juniors who had high aspirations. Else, for most adults what I wrote is perfectly fine. You might need days of deliberate 'supervised' practice to reach a 4.0 level. Don't assume that holds true for others too.

As for needing coaching to have 'pretty strokes' albeit inconsistent, while people who win at that level without coaching are only doing so because they hit ugly soft shots...c'mon man..that's a cop out. We've had tons of debate on this and we are not going to agree here. You always feel just because you are incapable of something, others are too. Put your ego aside.

 

[Morch Us]

Priorities matters. If you have the right priority and mindset, you will find your own ways (whether it is additional coaching or right hitting partner or videotaping your games/strokes or watching youtube or just by "fake it till you make it"). And yes, everyone has their own ways, which leads to this big debate of what is the right way to do it (everyone will vouch that their way is the best way).

 

[FiReFTW]

Of course, even 1x a month is enough to improve.

If someone never played tennis and he picks up a racquet and plays 1x a month, will he be the same player after 5 years or have much better consistency in his strokes?

Now if Federer plays only 1x a month he will not improve he will actually loose his feel and his level will drop.

So the point im trying to make is, it depends on a huge amount of factors, and being so simplistic is pretty foolish.

Next important point id like to make, it also depends how much knowledge someone has, say two people both practice the same amount, one pretty ignorant in tennis knowledge, the other pretty much knows tennis inside out and knows all the biomechanics and techniques etc... which will improve faster?

Then it also depends how quality the training or practice is, someone who hits just for the sake of hitting will not improve as fast as someone who does specific drills and gives himself specific tasks and aims for specific spots.

Id say someone who seriously has a quality practice session 1x a week can improve more than someone who just plays 3x a week just to hit with a friend.

So there are so many factors that its ignorant to simply say 2x a week is not enough to improve, or is enough to improve.
Improve what? Improve how much? Improve at what level to what level?.....

 

[Stretchy Man]

I played 3 times a week for the last two years which got me from 3.5 to 4.0, but when I stopped improving and finally managed to go backwards I got frustrated. I recently found a good coach who fixed some obvious flaws and now enjoying the game again.

I think the best way to progress is to practice with regular coaching. I'm sure I would have progressed much faster if I did this. There is not much point practicing bad technique.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I played 3 times a week for the last two years which got me from 3.5 to 4.0, but when I stopped improving and finally managed to go backwards I got frustrated. I recently found a good coach who fixed some obvious flaws and now enjoying the game again.

I think the best way to progress is to practice with regular coaching. I'm sure I would have progressed much faster if I did this. There is not much point practicing bad technique.

3x a week is not enough to dramatically change bad habit strokes.
What changes did you make to go from 3.5 to 4.0 ?

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Oh, I will add another comment most of you will hate.
Even 6x a week is not enough.

At some point, when trying to correct decades old flawed habits,
you will need to hit more than once a day.

Just like the pros.

You want to wear the same shirt and sneakers as the pros.
Use the same rackets as the pros.

Guess what? Pros don't hit for one or two hours a day.
They hit several times a day, during their formative years.
This is why IMG exists.

There were a few days when I played or drilled 3x in a day.
Morning, afternoon, evening.

This is what it takes to build new habits.
New habits are not built in one hour a day.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

A lot comes down to how coachable you are. This is a key thing looked at in young athletes. Some people just do not have aptitude or body awareness to take coaching or self coach easily and have it stick.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Typical cop out mindset you'll find here.
Even the most talented kid with DNA from tennis gods has to drill every day, and at some point, several times a day.
There is literally no exception to this rule at the highest levels.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

Typical cop out mindset you'll find here.
Even the most talented kid with DNA from tennis gods has to drill every day, and at some point, several times a day.
There is literally no exception to this rule at the highest levels.

We're talking about 'can you improve' not exclusively the very highest extremes of the game. Also, just because it has taken that for you doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else.

High level skiing is as technical as tennis. I ski at a high level and make serious progress each time I have a 1 week skiing holiday because I have good teaching material.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Oh, I will add another comment most of you will hate.
Even 6x a week is not enough.

At some point, when trying to correct decades old flawed habits,
you will need to hit more than once a day.

Just like the pros.

You want to wear the same shirt and sneakers as the pros.
Use the same rackets as the pros.

Guess what? Pros don't hit for one or two hours a day.
They hit several times a day, during their formative years.
This is why IMG exists.

There were a few days when I played or drilled 3x in a day.
Morning, afternoon, evening.

This is what it takes to build new habits.
New habits are not built in one hour a day.

It's not an "all or nothing" proposal. Some people under some circumstances can improve playing once/week [for example, a beginner; the lesser-skilled one is, the more likely he can improve. Probably wouldn't work for a 5.0]. Others can't or won't.

It would be more accurate to say "For any given person, the more frequently one plays/drills/takes lessons/conditions, the more likely one is to improve and by larger amounts."

I don't hate your comment; I just think it's too simplistic to cover the universe of tennis players.

 

[WesternCK]

Yes, you can definitely improve playing twice a week.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Yes, until you hit 3.5. that's where most people stay forever

 

[GuyClinch]

Yes, until you hit 3.5. that's where most people stay forever

Again simply not true. I was lucky enough to learn squash from an Australian guy who was a former #19 in the world. So world class squash player. He was easily 4.5 without playing tennis on a regular basis - and would quickly revert to 5.0 level with even modest practice. This is because he is a top athlete..who plays racquet sports for a living.

Most people are 'average' - some guys are a little faster - some guys are a little stronger - some guys are a little smarter. So in the 3.5 world where all these average guys live - 2x is probably not going to be a enough. No hard and fast rule though. You could find a top athlete who takes up the sport and he would start a 3.5 - and would cruise to 4.0 - 4.5 with 2x a week.

I know you don't like that answer - but you think your way because you are 50 year old man - far beyond any athletic peak. Random unathletic 25 year olds can out quick and out run you.. Your problem is you started too late and live in a cold area. These two factors will doom your progression.

 

[Stretchy Man]

3x a week is not enough to dramatically change bad habit strokes.
What changes did you make to go from 3.5 to 4.0 ?

Playing everyday wouldn't have made any difference to my game because I wasn't being corrected by a coach.

There is a reason why pros can practice everyday for 20 years - they are not normal. If their extreme obsession with tennis was hurting themselves or others, they would be diagnosed as having a mental disorder.

Normal people will get burnt out by practicing this much.

 

[ByeByePoly]

In light of some recent posts, I wanted to bring back a discussion that started earlier this summer by a very profound TW contributor. I need to give credit to @TimeToPlaySets for the original post:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-strokes-playing-2x-a-week-wont-do-it.591728/
that started the discussion. Of course as many posts in this forum do, the topic derailed and it's rather difficult to sift through the nuggets and chafe.

I, myself, have been on a journey of improvement having picked up the sport again a couple years ago following a long duration of playing off and on...mostly off. But at some point, my son's tennis game improved to the point that we had competitive matches but quickly transitioned to me being left in the dust.

I've worked pretty hard at improving over the last year. I bought expensive racquets and tried all sorts of different strings. Surely I could purchase the right combo of equipment that could give me a 1.0 NTRP boost. Well, whatever gain I saw was only temporary Band-Aid. It masked a few things, but did not cure the more fundamental problem.

But sometime in Spring, I joined Flights at my club and started attending drills classes and even joined the club's USTA team. The first two months was brutal with me making so many errors it was maddening. But over the next several months, I was able to stabilize, clean up my UEs and DFs.

But looking back, it did take playing 3-4x a week with a combination of drills, practice, and yes, a few private lessons sprinkled here and there.

Now recently, I responded to a poster that played against a previous college player and top ranked junior. And I estimated the amount of hours he invested into tennis to have his game at such a high (jr)level. Since he's not training as hard anymore, he regresses back to a level that he can maintain with minimal effort. Sort of like riding a bike. You can still be a good rider with deep inherent skills that are dull but can quickly be refined to a higher level. But you are still going to suck compared to a current CAT3 racer.

So it seems, there is no real short cut for improvement.

Now, you can play 4-5x a week and make significant improvements in 2-3years. But if you spread that 4-5x a week out to 2x a week, it's gonna take you more than 4-6yrs (linear) to achieve the same level. In fact, there may be some factor that takes it out even 6-9yrs to reach that same level.

This summer, I cut my play back to about 1x a week due to schedule conflicts. And yup, I regressed.

So, in agreement with TTPS, playing 2x a week may sustain my level. But a sustained 3+ times a week is needed to see any real improvement.

Depends on what "2 times".

YES if:
- 2 tournament matches a week
- 2 USTA matches a week
- 2 matches a week against player/s better than you as long as you get to hit a lot of balls

That's assuming you didn't do something stupid like change from 1hbh to 2hbh ... or get old.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Again simply not true. I was lucky enough to learn squash from an Australian guy who was a former #19 in the world. So world class squash player. He was easily 4.5 without playing tennis on a regular basis - and would quickly revert to 5.0 level with even modest practice. This is because he is a top athlete..who plays racquet sports for a living.

Most people are 'average' - some guys are a little faster - some guys are a little stronger - some guys are a little smarter. So in the 3.5 world where all these average guys live - 2x is probably not going to be a enough. No hard and fast rule though. You could find a top athlete who takes up the sport and he would start a 3.5 - and would cruise to 4.0 - 4.5 with 2x a week.

I know you don't like that answer - but you think your way because you are 50 year old man - far beyond any athletic peak. Random unathletic 25 year olds can out quick and out run you.. Your problem is you started too late and live in a cold area. These two factors will doom your progression.

I'm sure you see how silly your example of needing to use a best in the world squash player as someone who can become a 4.5 without much effort. For the other 99.999999999999% of people who have not spent 20 years with a racket of some kind in their hands (and the other 18 squash players above him), they are not getting to 4.5 without coaching and drills and daily play unless they are master pushers.

Your comment on 50 vs 25 is wrong. An athletic 50 year old can easily smoke a "random unathletic 25 year old" There are tons of 50 year old Iron Men and plenty of obese 25 year olds who even can't walk and chew gum. There are 60 year old tennis players who have drilled and coached and played 5x a week that will bagel a random 18-25 year old hacker with ease. Remember, most of these 18-25 year olds who suck will still suck when they are 30, 40, and 50 years old. Most people never get past 3.5. Do you think even 10% of tennis players play with USTA? 90% of USTA players are 4.0 and under.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I'm sure you see how silly your example of needing to use a best in the world squash player as someone who can become a 4.5 without much effort. For the other 99.999999999999% of people who have not spent 20 years with a racket of some kind in their hands (and the other 18 squash players above him), they are not getting to 4.5 without coaching and drills and daily play unless they are master pushers.

You missed the subsequent part of his post where he agreed with you: "So in the 3.5 world where all these average guys live - 2x is probably not going to be a enough."

 

[Morch Us]

Hmm...... no comments.

Even 6x a week is not enough.

Typical cop out mindset you'll find here.

Yes, until you hit 3.5. that's where most people stay forever

Your comment on 50 vs 25 is wrong

Most people never get past 3.5

 

[Avles]

Based on my own experience, I think you can definitely improve individual aspects of your game playing/practicing 2x a week (especially if some parts of your game are very weak...)

But the kind of across-the-board improvement (or dramatic improvement in one area), that you'd need to move up a level will probably require more practice and play time.