Can you rally 15-20 balls like Tennis_Balla(deep drives, DTM), especially at 3.5 level?

Can you rally 15-20 balls like Tennis_Balla (deep drives, DTM), especially at 3.5?


  • Total voters
    17

Fintft

Legend
And second question: how many can you do in a minute?

(I managed to do 26 with my coach...10 years ago).

Mind you this is all I wish atm, in my tennis life, to rally like this, medium length (say 8 -12 balls), from the BL :)

I doubt that there are too many 3.5s pairs that can do that, at least not based on recent videos we've seen posted here: short balls, loopy/puffy ones, S&V or MEP style :)

Can you do it?

Look at this beauty, why aren't more people aiming for this style?

 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
I think so but not sure I see the point. If I am going to do that kind of stuff it would be cross court. Does that count? Plus who hits at 80%? Shroud has like 20% and 100%...not much in between
 

Fintft

Legend
I think so but not sure I see the point. If I am going to do that kind of stuff it would be cross court. Does that count? Plus who hits at 80%? Shroud has like 20% and 100%...not much in between
Newbs send their all out FHs only CC :) And you need lessons if you don't have a third gear, aka 80% :)
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
WTF? You are 4.5 right? Can probably do a dozen, have you tried?
I am. But that doesn't mean all of my skills are median 4.5. You've seen my net game: if it's high-level 4.5, where does that put my ground game?

Yes, I've tried. I'm usually the one who makes the first mistake.

The absolute # is not important: it's my recognition of where my strengths and weaknesses are.
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
Lol can't believe this video is at the top of the thread. I remember tennis balla posting and this video going around when I first joined the forum like 10 years ago.
 

RVAtennisaddict

Professional
Yes. Routinely warm up and the drill how many balls in a minute. Down the middle. Cc=f and cc-bh. My goal is fifty. Theypical get hi 30 low 40s.
I am 3.5
 

pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
This is very common drills but when it comes to rally points, match play, etc their form will start crumple I can say 100% certainty. That's why usually people hit differently in match play versus in cooperative rally situation.

Btw, which 3.5 are you referring to?
 

ZanderGoga

Semi-Pro
Strange question.

Why would anyone count how many shots they can execute in a minute? As many as come to me, I guess. A fair amount of that will depend on who's on the other side, how fast we hit, etc.

As for why aren't more people aiming to play like this? Like what? Reliable, solid groundstrokes with competent form? Why would you think people *aren't* aiming to play like this, the army of give-uppers who want to celebrate the pusher revolution aside? That's what a solid 5.0+ practice rally has always looked like, and I'd imagine most players who practice at all are either doing that on a daily basis, or trying to get there. Not even sure what the alternative is in your mind. "Let's go out and hit well." "Nah, let's work on doing that other thing."
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
I only practice the first four shots anything beyond that is a waste. :eek:

The First 4 Shots = Game Changer
The practice court is broken.

Here's the proof...

Welcome to the most shocking analysis our sport has seen.

Let's start with the practice court. Have a good hard look at it. It's full of long rallies.

But tennis matches are not.

We spend a lot of time grinding, banging balls up and down the middle of the court - that have no real benefit to winning tennis matches.

If winning matters to you, The First 4 Shots will completely change how you organize your practice court and go about your business of winning tennis matches.
-Sean O'Shanessy
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Why would anyone count how many shots they can execute in a minute?
I've seen drills of high-level players [coach Dabul comes to mind] where he's feeding in rapid succession. Some drills, the feed goes to the same place; some, the feeder and feed move closer to the net. I'm not sure of the applicability to a match situation other than if I'm on the BL and my opponent is at net. Maybe it's more of a stroke groove thing?
 

AnyPUG

Professional
I've seen drills of high-level players [coach Dabul comes to mind] where he's feeding in rapid succession. Some drills, the feed goes to the same place; some, the feeder and feed move closer to the net. I'm not sure of the applicability to a match situation other than if I'm on the BL and my opponent is at net. Maybe it's more of a stroke groove thing?
I was told by a coach that the rapid succession feeding is used as a warm up before high intensity training sessions (usually in junior academies).
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Strange question.

Why would anyone count how many shots they can execute in a minute? As many as come to me, I guess. A fair amount of that will depend on who's on the other side, how fast we hit, etc.

As for why aren't more people aiming to play like this? Like what? Reliable, solid groundstrokes with competent form? Why would you think people *aren't* aiming to play like this, the army of give-uppers who want to celebrate the pusher revolution aside? That's what a solid 5.0+ practice rally has always looked like, and I'd imagine most players who practice at all are either doing that on a daily basis, or trying to get there. Not even sure what the alternative is in your mind. "Let's go out and hit well." "Nah, let's work on doing that other thing."
Please refrain from using common sense and rational thoughts on the TTW board.
Thank you for your cooperation.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
If you can rally like the video, you aren't 3.5.

I know my wife and I tried this in our practice sessions once and got as high as 50 once but there were a lot more loopy balls and short balls in that rally.
Yeah that guys looks better then some of the 4.5s around here. Can't speak to his actual level. Yes indoors makes your tennis look better - but still...
 

Fintft

Legend
Lol can't believe this video is at the top of the thread. I remember tennis balla posting and this video going around when I first joined the forum like 10 years ago.
Yes, b/c we don't get many(if any) videos of us members rallying like this and also b/c using his name is less controversial :)
 

Fintft

Legend
Yes. Routinely warm up and the drill how many balls in a minute. Down the middle. Cc=f and cc-bh. My goal is fifty. Theypical get hi 30 low 40s.
I am 3.5
Are you talking tongue in cheek?

The how many balls in a minute drill had only one requirement: that the balls had to be rising as they passed the BL.

I don't think that togther you can hit 30 unless both of you are coaches, while world class juniors apparently hit 42, followed by the likes of Nadal that might do 54 (quoting my coach from memory)
 

Fintft

Legend
better question is, "should you try to rally with Depth and what is Depth?"
To me (b/c I don't see the thread @Jake Speed had anymore) it means close to the BL, at least past the service line.
The how many balls in a minute drill had only one requirement: that the balls had to be rising as they passed the BL., maybe that's a better definion of depth?

I can see why alternating depth with short and angled balls(especially on clay) in practice makes for a more realistic scenario and leads to better movement, but I guess this is an initial drill, meant for consistency.
 

Fintft

Legend
I only practice the first four shots anything beyond that is a waste. :eek:

The First 4 Shots = Game Changer
The practice court is broken.

Here's the proof...

Welcome to the most shocking analysis our sport has seen.

Let's start with the practice court. Have a good hard look at it. It's full of long rallies.

But tennis matches are not.

We spend a lot of time grinding, banging balls up and down the middle of the court - that have no real benefit to winning tennis matches.

If winning matters to you, The First 4 Shots will completely change how you organize your practice court and go about your business of winning tennis matches.
-Sean O'Shanessy
I agree but during those first 4 shots, you might be under a lot of pressure, especially if you have puffy, short ones yourself.
Although, there is a common drill when you practice a winner after 4 rally balls, to address your concern. And other.
 

Fintft

Legend
Why would anyone count how many shots they can execute in a minute? As many as come to me, I guess. A fair amount of that will depend on who's on the other side, how fast we hit, etc.

As for why aren't more people aiming to play like this? Like what? Reliable, solid groundstrokes with competent form? Why would you think people *aren't* aiming to play like this, the army of give-uppers who want to celebrate the pusher revolution aside? That's what a solid 5.0+ practice rally has always looked like, and I'd imagine most players who practice at all are either doing that on a daily basis, or trying to get there. Not even sure what the alternative is in your mind. "Let's go out and hit well." "Nah, let's work on doing that other thing."
To the former: the coach probably wanted to inject some peace and depth in our practices, otherwise she would have gone for "let's hit 50 rally balls" drill.

To the latter: You are absolutely correct, obviously, but maybe not to all of us who post here? As for the the alternative: I suspect (and that includes many of my friends) that many people just practice and hit randomly and/or with short term goals in mind (no long term planning).
 

Fintft

Legend
This is very common drills but when it comes to rally points, match play, etc their form will start crumple I can say 100% certainty. That's why usually people hit differently in match play versus in cooperative rally situation.

Btw, which 3.5 are you referring to?
It might help with the fundation and development though...That was @Jake Speeed point, if I can quote him correctly, from memory.

Definitely the majority of my 3.5-4.0 friends I've tried this with (very few managed it) and also judging by the recent posted videos here, by members, on the forum.
 

maleyoyo

Professional
This is a very common half court warm up when we train with the ball must land beyond the service line. Twenty is usually the magic number.
It does wonder if you do it right because you really work on your DTL, directional and depth control.
 

mtommer

Hall of Fame
Look at this beauty, why aren't more people aiming for this style?
Isn't this pretty much just asking why someone isn't putting in the time they could to train to reach the highest of their ability? I've always maintained that I believe most people would reach at least a 5.0-5.5 level if they put serious practice time in. Most don't because for most people I've come across tennis is something they play for social or "fun" reasons. Ironically, those who are competitive in nature and play, be it socially but at least somewhat regularly (although not intensely or putting in real practice time), also tend to be the ones who buy racquet and gear to "improve" their limited game amongst their limited play partners. Nothing wrong with that but simply put, most don't want to put in the work required in order to get to the "style" you mention. *shrug*
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
And second question: how many can you do in a minute?

(I managed to do 26 with my coach...10 years ago).

Mind you this is all I wish atm, in my tennis life, to rally like this, medium length (say 8 -12 balls), from the BL :)

I doubt that there are too many 3.5s pairs that can do that, at least not based on recent videos we've seen posted here: short balls, loopy/puffy ones, S&V or MEP style :)

Can you do it?

Look at this beauty, why aren't more people aiming for this style?

Don't know where I'd rank on the NTRP as I don't live in the US and have no equivalent rating system here. But I can certainly do 15-20 balls consecutive hitting with medium length. I have played competitive points that lasted that long, albeit not often.

I haven't clocked myself while playing out such rallies. But I think I once did 50 shots (both myself and partner taken together) on a trot.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I'd add that you have to either hit at least a little hard to give the ball enough momentum to keep up a long rally or use lots of topspin and elevation so that you can keep up the rally without much pace.
 

socallefty

Legend
Do you have to be 3.5 to vote in the poll or can anyone vote? I do consistency drills sometimes with 4.5 buddies where we try to do 50 groundstrokes in a row - it’s usually pretty easy to do 60-70 shot rallies as we hit nice and easy with a lot of topspin. A couple of times, I’ve gone over 100 shots in these cooperative drills. My wife is a 3.5 and even she can do 50-shot rallies with me although she hits much slower than me and my friends. Usually the long rallies end when a deep ball is hit right at the body of one of the players and they don’t get out of the way fast enough to have good spacing.

The consistency drill I find more useful is to hit 20 shots in a row where each shot lands beyond the service line and inside the baseline. It is a tough drill because if you hit too flat, your partner gets rushed and makes an error - if you hit with too much topspin, invariably a ball lands short inside the service box. Usually we struggle to get to 10-12 shots with this drill before one of the shots lands inside the service box and we have to start all over again.

I‘ve never tried to count how many balls we hit in a minute in a drill - what is the point of that?
 

Fintft

Legend
Do you have to be 3.5 to vote in the poll or can anyone vote? I do consistency drills sometimes with 4.5 buddies where we try to do 50 groundstrokes in a row - it’s usually pretty easy to do 60-70 shot rallies as we hit nice and easy with a lot of topspin. A couple of times, I’ve gone over 100 shots in these cooperative drills. My wife is a 3.5 and even she can do 50-shot rallies with me although she hits much slower than me and my friends. Usually the long rallies end when a deep ball is hit right at the body of one of the players and they don’t get out of the way fast enough to have good spacing.

The consistency drill I find more useful is to hit 20 shots in a row where each shot lands beyond the service line and inside the baseline. It is a tough drill because if you hit too flat, your partner gets rushed and makes an error - if you hit with too much topspin, invariably a ball lands short inside the service box. Usually we struggle to get to 10-12 shots with this drill before one of the shots lands inside the service box and we have to start all over again.

I‘ve never tried to count how many balls we hit in a minute in a drill - what is the point of that?
To your first question: Anyone can vote, of course. Consistency drills, such as 50 balls are different, yet close. So yes long rallies usually end like this, if both players are consistent and cooperate (if not, they get pulled wide or short as well).

To your second paragraph: That's the drill I was talking about. So even at 4.5 you struggle to get 10-12 deep("where each shot lands beyond the service line and inside the baseline"), drive balls :)
No wonder very few of my partners managed to do it with me and two stopped rallying with me when I kept asking them to have rallies "where each shot lands beyond the service line and inside the baseline".

As for the drill per minute, I guess that the coach wanted to do the same drill, but with max pace/power. We did 26, she could do over 30 with another coach, world class juniors seem to be able to do 42 and the Nadals 54.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
This is very common drills but when it comes to rally points, match play, etc their form will start crumple I can say 100% certainty. That's why usually people hit differently in match play versus in cooperative rally situation.

Btw, which 3.5 are you referring to?
The thing about this "Down the middle" technique, I don't call this a drill, and I've used this technique since the early 70's, so I've seen first hand over many years how well and efficient this works with many players.

No one, not even ATP can hit this way without some movement, even one or two "relaxed" steps in either direction is fine and cannot be helped. Actually a good thing. Sure, once both players get efficient with this technique, they can start hitting a variety of drives. Advanced players have many different types of drives in their arsenal. They don't just wack and slap at the ball as most "club level" players do.

"Crumple" under pressure? Do you mean "crumble?" I've said this many times, "Play as you train." This collapsing under pressure is common and it's difficult to remove because it's the personality of the player who has many bad habits and all of them are working against him or her.

This is exactly what you get when you play more useless sets, early on in the learning stage instead of training to develop a "real" game of tennis instead of a "pretend" game of tennis.

I'm very used to other coaches and players talking against my methods. Eventually they learn, but very few ever say, "Gee Jake, I wished it sank in sooner."

"Now go train."

JS
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
To your first question: Anyone can vote, of course. Consistency drills, such as 50 balls are different, yet close. So yes long rallies usually end like this, if both players are consistent and cooperate (if not, they get pulled wide or short as well).

To your second paragraph: That's the drill I was talking about. So even at 4.5 you struggle to get 10-12 deep("where each shot lands beyond the service line and inside the baseline"), drive balls :)
No wonder very few of my partners managed to do it with me and two stopped rallying with me when I kept asking them to have rallies "where each shot lands beyond the service line and inside the baseline".

As for the drill per minute, I guess that the coach wanted to do the same drill, but with max pace/power. We did 26, she could do over 30 with another coach, world class juniors seem to be able to do 42 and the Nadals 54.
Keep in mind, sooner or later one must learn to hit a ball which causes difficulty for their opponent.

JS
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Keep in mind, sooner or later one must learn to hit a ball which causes difficulty for their opponent.

JS
Pushers win without doing this. Or rather, the difficulty posed by pushers is that they make so few mistakes and put the burden of winning the point on the non-pusher. This is too much for some to handle.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
Pushers win without doing this. Or rather, the difficulty posed by pushers is that they make so few mistakes and put the burden of winning the point on the non-pusher. This is too much for some to handle.
Yea well,

If you have a "tennis game," shots plus tactics, you can easily beat a "pusher."

At "club level" the "pusher" is generally at the same level of play as his opponent.

The fix is simple and I've said this so many times, I'm sick of saying it,

"Stop playing matches and TRAIN."

You cannot develop a tennis game by "skipping" the necessary training needed and start playing matches when you have only 10% of what you need to call yourself a "Tennis Player."

Just a bunch of "people playing tennis" badly. There's always a price to pay when you wish to be better or the best.

I know playing matches is fun, but the "fun" doesn't make you a better player.

JS
 

socallefty

Legend
There are fun drills you can do without playing sets and matches. I do a drill off baseline feeds with a hitting partner where we can win points only by hitting an outright winner. So, forced and unforced errors don’t count towards winning or losing points and points ending with an error are not counted. Just winning 5 points each can take more than 20-30 minutes with an equal-level player especially since we will be using old practice balls and there is no serving to set up an easy point for a winner.

You have to learn to construct a baseline point to open up gaps by moving your opponent laterally or up/down to open up enough space to hit a clean winner. Going to the net is risky unless you hit a great approach as it is too easy to get passed by a pass or lob winner while it is not so easy to have a winner that you don’t touch hit past you at the baseline with old balls. This drill is really great for promoting hitting out and we usually try to have one player get to 5 points without taking a water/rest break to make it a bit of an endurance drill also.

Usually, we will do this drill only after doing some consistency drills, accuracy drills, figure 8 (one player hits only crosscourt and other hits only DTL) drills etc. as working on shot tolerance and accuracy is important too.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Yea well,

If you have a "tennis game," shots plus tactics, you can easily beat a "pusher."

At "club level" the "pusher" is generally at the same level of play as his opponent.

The fix is simple and I've said this so many times, I'm sick of saying it,

"Stop playing matches and TRAIN."

You cannot develop a tennis game by "skipping" the necessary training needed and start playing matches when you have only 10% of what you need to call yourself a "Tennis Player."

Just a bunch of "people playing tennis" badly. There's always a price to pay when you wish to be better or the best.

I know playing matches is fun, but the "fun" doesn't make you a better player.

JS
I don't disagree with anything you've written. My point was that your initial description ["Keep in mind, sooner or later one must learn to hit a ball which causes difficulty for their opponent."] was incomplete.

The fix might be simple but it obviously takes more work than many are willing to put in as evidenced by the legion of people who have problems with pushers.

What % of the tennis playing population is willing to stop playing matches and train? I'd guess less than 0.01%.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
I don't disagree with anything you've written. My point was that your initial description ["Keep in mind, sooner or later one must learn to hit a ball which causes difficulty for their opponent."] was incomplete.

The fix might be simple but it obviously takes more work than many are willing to put in as evidenced by the legion of people who have problems with pushers.

What % of the tennis playing population is willing to stop playing matches and train? I'd guess less than 0.01%.
There ya go. You identified a major problem dealing with the concept of advancement.

Super kudos!! And then some!!

JS
 

curly_2350

New User
I do wonder about 3.0 - 4.0 who say drills aren't fun but somehow playing a set of tennis where with 2 double faults every game and average rally length is 2 shots and the vast majority of your court time is spent going to pick up the balls is fun.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I do wonder about 3.0 - 4.0 who say drills aren't fun but somehow playing a set of tennis where with 2 double faults every game and average rally length is 2 shots and the vast majority of your court time is spent going to pick up the balls is fun.
Because drills imply work and matches imply fun? :D
 

Fintft

Legend
There are fun drills you can do without playing sets and matches. I do a drill off baseline feeds with a hitting partner where we can win points only by hitting an outright winner. So, forced and unforced errors don’t count towards winning or losing points and points ending with an error are not counted. Just winning 5 points each can take more than 20-30 minutes with an equal-level player especially since we will be using old practice balls and there is no serving to set up an easy point for a winner.

You have to learn to construct a baseline point to open up gaps by moving your opponent laterally or up/down to open up enough space to hit a clean winner. Going to the net is risky unless you hit a great approach as it is too easy to get passed by a pass or lob winner while it is not so easy to have a winner that you don’t touch hit past you at the baseline with old balls. This drill is really great for promoting hitting out and we usually try to have one player get to 5 points without taking a water/rest break to make it a bit of an endurance drill also.

Usually, we will do this drill only after doing some consistency drills, accuracy drills, figure 8 (one player hits only crosscourt and other hits only DTL) drills etc. as working on shot tolerance and accuracy is important too.
At my level, one of my partners and me, we both can win the point from your feed ( if it's between the service line and BL), be them old practice balls. No need to construct the point.

But courtey demands at least one polite return, if not 3-4...
 

Fintft

Legend
I don't disagree with anything you've written. My point was that your initial description ["Keep in mind, sooner or later one must learn to hit a ball which causes difficulty for their opponent."] was incomplete.

The fix might be simple but it obviously takes more work than many are willing to put in as evidenced by the legion of people who have problems with pushers.

What % of the tennis playing population is willing to stop playing matches and train? I'd guess less than 0.01%.
No, it's probably higher, like 5% who train and 40% who just rally.
 

Jason Swerve

Hall of Fame
I am. But that doesn't mean all of my skills are median 4.5. You've seen my net game: if it's high-level 4.5, where does that put my ground game?

Yes, I've tried. I'm usually the one who makes the first mistake.

The absolute # is not important: it's my recognition of where my strengths and weaknesses are.
A wise player (Gonzales) once said to focus on strengthening your strengths. A better deal than concentrating all your energy and time on trying to haul up the naturally weakest points of your game.
 

Fintft

Legend
I do wonder about 3.0 - 4.0 who say drills aren't fun but somehow playing a set of tennis where with 2 double faults every game and average rally length is 2 shots and the vast majority of your court time is spent going to pick up the balls is fun.
I do use 8 balls, mind you...
 
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