Can't beat running!

mb73

New User
My favorite way to stay in shape may very well be the most boring method to most people. I love to run! Never in my younger years did I enjoy getting out and running voluntarily. In the last couple of years I have grown to love the miles on the road. I run 4 days for an average of about 25 miles each week. I would run more, however my risk for injury would likely increase. This would also take some time away from tennis, which would not be good either!

A nice side benefit to running is I get to use this time to think about my game. I get into a good mindset while running that allows me to "solve" little issues in my life, at least mentally. When I am having problems on the court, it is a great help to be able to ponder what I need to do to fix those problems during my runs.

If you haven't tried it, I highly recommend that you try a little slower-paced distance running. Just like everything else, start off with shorter runs and work your way up. It's great for the mind and the body of a tennis lover!
 

maverick66

Hall of Fame
Great for the body its not. Long distance running is an absolute brutal way to get in shape. Our bodies just are not meant to run like that. You might like it mentally but is terrible on our bodies.
 

albino smurf

Professional
I've switched my running to HIIT and stairs only. Long distance makes me feel slower and seems to always lead to nagging injuries. Everything I've read states that jogging damages your muscles and tendons while stairs strengthen your tendons and builds muscles when done correctly. I always did enjoy the meditative side of jogging and found it a great way to sort things out, but now I just do intense cardio sessions and meditation separately.
 

mb73

New User
Great for the body its not. Long distance running is an absolute brutal way to get in shape. Our bodies just are not meant to run like that. You might like it mentally but is terrible on our bodies.

I respectfully disagree 100 percent. Just like anything else, you need good form when running. Good form is developed by starting slowly and for shorter distances. Most of the best athletes in the world recognize that distance refines the core and the larger muscle groups in the legs, glutes and back as well as conditions the tendons for long term durability and flexibility. One can't go out haphazardly and expect to stay injury free while running. However, slowly working up to 5 miles or more is what I advocate.

There have also been recent studies showing that running has good benefits for the joints as well. Yes, this includes the knees!

Take the time to LEARN how to run. Your body will adapt and force you to improve your form if you increase mileage very slowly over a long period of time. Many runners with good form run into their 70's and 80's without any serious repercussions at all!
 

maverick66

Hall of Fame
I respectfully disagree 100 percent. Just like anything else, you need good form when running. Good form is developed by starting slowly and for shorter distances. Most of the best athletes in the world recognize that distance refines the core and the larger muscle groups in the legs, glutes and back as well as conditions the tendons for long term durability and flexibility. One can't go out haphazardly and expect to stay injury free while running. However, slowly working up to 5 miles or more is what I advocate.

There have also been recent studies showing that running has good benefits for the joints as well. Yes, this includes the knees!

Take the time to LEARN how to run. Your body will adapt and force you to improve your form if you increase mileage very slowly over a long period of time. Many runners with good form run into their 70's and 80's without any serious repercussions at all!

Runners are a physical therapist dream. Long distance runners are their best clients. So many injuries occur when someone runs for distance. Its not a simple learn to run thing. Its a simple our bodies are not designed to run that long. If you go to any competitive running event you will hear people talking about either training or what injury they are recovering from. Tennis players have no need for long distance work.

And Albinosmurf is correct with the speed aspect. Running long distances teaches your energy system to work that way. In tennis you wanna be as explosive as possible. Tennis rewards the guy that can maintain explosive movements the longest not the one that can play at a steady rate for hours.
 

larry10s

Hall of Fame
15 years ago i lost 60 lbs over a year by running and lifestyle changes. i got up to 6-10 miles 4 times a week.developed achilles tendinits, iliotibial band syndrome among other little muscle strains.
started tennis 8-9 years ago during a recovery from achilles tendinitis. i coulldnt move . pro fed me balls i learned upper body technique.
decided long distance wasnt for me but a 1-2 mile run was just a tease. the runners high is addictive.
now i do 4 miles 2 times a week and do footwork agility drills 1-2 week if i can
i rationalise the 4 mile runs as a means to maintain overall fitness and stamina.
i agree running long and slow teaches your body to run long and slow. SO you have to do some speed work if you want the benefits for tennis
 

mb73

New User
Runners are a physical therapist dream. Long distance runners are their best clients. So many injuries occur when someone runs for distance. Its not a simple learn to run thing. Its a simple our bodies are not designed to run that long. If you go to any competitive running event you will hear people talking about either training or what injury they are recovering from. Tennis players have no need for long distance work.

And Albinosmurf is correct with the speed aspect. Running long distances teaches your energy system to work that way. In tennis you wanna be as explosive as possible. Tennis rewards the guy that can maintain explosive movements the longest not the one that can play at a steady rate for hours.

I actually agree with a couple of things you said. #1, when talking about competitive runners you are definitely talking about a group of people who have experienced injury. This is because they are having to constantly push the envelope to increase speed and endurance. My point is that running for fitness must be taken on slowly and safely. We are not trying to finish a 5 mile run in 30 minutes by any means. If we are running for fitness, we are keeping it comfortable and safe for our bodies by focusing more on form and the actual time running rather than our running pace.

#2, you are absolutely correct about explosiveness. We need this burst of movement in tennis that we won't learn with distance running. My advocacy of running is for fitness only, not really training. Although one will definitely build endurance with running (a point with which I doubt anyone would disagree), and being able to stay focused and have the stamina to play for a long time is definitely a good thing for a tennis player. A tennis player must also engage in interval training to get that explosive movement. Distance running won't rob your body's ability to "remember" how to move explosively when needed, though.

You make some very good points, however I believe you have either had a bad experience with running or have succumbed to some of the misinformation that's been spread over the years about distance running.
 

maverick66

Hall of Fame
You make some very good points, however I believe you have either had a bad experience with running or have succumbed to some of the misinformation that's been spread over the years about distance running.

My info comes from guys that are either top trainers in the strength and conditioning or from studies that have shown that distance running doesnt help you very much when it comes to athletic training. Long distance runners are a sadistic bunch that keep tearing there bodies up but for some reason keep doing it. If you are training for tennis than save your body and do sprints or other quicker short bursts movements for you training.
 

mb73

New User
My info comes from guys that are either top trainers in the strength and conditioning or from studies that have shown that distance running doesnt help you very much when it comes to athletic training. Long distance runners are a sadistic bunch that keep tearing there bodies up but for some reason keep doing it. If you are training for tennis than save your body and do sprints or other quicker short bursts movements for you training.

I guess we just disagree on this one! I wouldn't say that I'm one bit sadistic (or more accurately masochistic in this case) or that my body has suffered one bit from my running. A big part of my physical fitness is attributed to the fact that I run. I know many others who would say the same. Trust me, if I felt my body were hurting from the running I would be the first to say it's time to stop!
 

Shaolin

Talk Tennis Guru
Elliptical HIIT training >>>>>running

Better workout, less destructive to the body.

Have fun killing your feet and knees running for 2 hours when you could be getting a better, lower impact workout in 25 min with an elliptical.
 
My orthopedist always recommends running, as he hopes to get himself a larger boat. Those joint replacements are pure gold for him. For himself, he swears by ellipticals and biking to avoid damage to the knees and hips.
 

yemenmocha

Professional
Great for the body its not. Long distance running is an absolute brutal way to get in shape. Our bodies just are not meant to run like that. You might like it mentally but is terrible on our bodies.

+1 and I'm sick of hearing this without the proper caveats about the improbability for most of us in avoiding injuries from long distance running. I'd say running is the most risky, reckless aerobic activity you can do, especially if one's other aerobic activity is tennis. This is way too much heavy impact cardio and odds are you're going to get screwed up feet, knees, etc.

Most of us, especially middle aged and up, are much better with cycling or swimming.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I guess we just disagree on this one! I wouldn't say that I'm one bit sadistic (or more accurately masochistic in this case) or that my body has suffered one bit from my running. A big part of my physical fitness is attributed to the fact that I run. I know many others who would say the same. Trust me, if I felt my body were hurting from the running I would be the first to say it's time to stop!

Good for you.

Running is like anything else. If you do it wrong, you stand a pretty good chance of getting injured. Most people I observe have very poor habits and technique. It is also important to take it slow in the beginning if you are new to running or have taken time off. Your body needs to adjust to the stresses of running. You need to slowly build up a nice base. It takes time. Most people are too impatient to be runners. Be thankful you are not one of these people.

There's no need to convince anyone that running is safe, healthy, and has many positive benefits. You know it (and you live it). That is enough. Let everyone else do HITT (or whatever fad comes next) or fight over the latest and greatest magical, low impact, infomercial approved cardio machine.

Running (as you very correctly point out) is more of a lifestyle.
 
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Those with slight frames who have a hard time adding muscle (ectomorphs) place less pounding on their joints and seem to be able to do a lot more running without developing problems.
Still, lots of miles running and lots of pounding on the tennis courts can catch up to you. The problem is cycling is truly dangerous in many places, and it's hard to swim and to build an aerobic base. HIIT/agility training is probably a must to play your best tennis unless you are playing really high intensity tennis several times a week.
 

albino smurf

Professional
http://www.lifemojo.com/lifestyle/stair-climbing-as-a-workout-830079

Stair climbing is a high-intensity exercise that is free and very accessible. All you need is a set of stairs and you are good to go. However, it may be difficult for heavier people at first try. The heavier you are, the harder it takes to climb stairs, and at the same time it burns more calories. The benefits of stair climbing include:

It requires no specific equipment to climb.
Stair climbing is effective for cross training in between workouts.
30 minutes of stair climbing can be incorporated anytime during the day.
One's aerobic capacity increases which is indicative of a healthier and effective heart, lungs and blood vessels.
Good for weight loss.
Reduces the cholesterol levels and maintains a good level of it in the body.
It can reduce the risk of osteoarthritis that primarily affects the knees and the hip.
Boosts your attitude, mood and confidence.
Increases your stamina and energy to perform activities.
Helps you lead an active and independent life by strengthening your muscle and heart capacities.
Helps tone the muscles.
Puts less pressure on the joints than running or jogging on concrete surfaces would do.


Read more: http://www.lifemojo.com/lifestyle/stair-climbing-as-a-workout-830079#ixzz0mK0KWqpm
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Those with slight frames who have a hard time adding muscle (ectomorphs) place less pounding on their joints and seem to be able to do a lot more running without developing problems.

This is true of course. Still, I hate to provide "built in" excuses for people to avoid running.

I used to pack on the miles 10-15 years ago. I was the same height I am now (6' 1") and weighed 150-160. I could run all day and it was easy. I used to do 30-50 miles / week I would say on average. I did that for 5 years straight and then a little more on and off for another 5-7 years. By the way, I never had any injuries apart from a mild discomfort in my knee on occasion. My solution for this? Listen to my body and stop running for as long as necessary. I think my longest recovery from this was 2 weeks, so it was nothing major (but I am extremely risk averse by nature so I probably recovered longer than was necessary). The other problem runners have are respiratory infections (you are constantly in a weakened state so your immune system is not as strong, thus more prone to this type of thing). My solution to this was to eat LARGE amounts of food (people were astounded to see how much I ate on a daily basis and I was always around 6% bodyfat or so. Just the way it was in those days).

Now I weigh 210 (trying to get down to 195 - 200). Am I big and fat? Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am about 15% - 17% bodyfat (so pretty average I suppose). Of course running is much harder than it was before. I only do about 15-20 miles / week and my pace is much slower. Still, I don't feel like I am in any danger of hurting myself. I still do sprint / track work as well, but nowhere near as much as I used to. I have done HIIT before, but it really wasn't to my liking. I also didn't feel like it gave me any sort of an edge on the tennis court. Let's be honest, at my level, my movement issues on the tennis court have more to do with "smarts" than with physical limitations. For me, stamina is more of an issue and "distance" running definitely helps me improve my stamina.

I also do a lot of bodyweight exercises (handstand push-ups, ab-wheel roll outs, L-seats, hanging leg raises to the bar, crucifix rollouts, dips, wide grip dips, wide grip pull-ups, pistol squats, and others). They are much tougher to do for a big guy compared to a little guy (it is much easier for me to lift heavy weights than do this stuff). But being big is no excuse for not doing it. It just takes longer to get comfortable / master the skill.

(By the way, when is the last time you saw a 210 - 215 lb. guy doing handstands in your gym? I try to do them in a private little corner so nobody sees me. I always get interested spectators if anyone does happen to see me. I imagine it looks a little odd).
 
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jswinf

Professional
Congratulations to OP for being in a good place physically and mentally. It seems, though, that there's some backlash to being "evangelical" about running.

I've run between 3 and 4.5 miles, twice a week, for a number of years. I do it for cardiovascular fitness and weight control mostly. I don't love it and I don't hate it, but I like it more that treadmills (ugh.)

I think people who really love running are more at risk of injuries because they do it too much. I had a friend once tell me "I love running so much I'd do it even it was bad for me." That ain't me, babe. It hasn't been bad for me, but I'm slow and non-competitive and not inclined to run more and more miles more and more days a week. Don't want to be like Forrest Gump in his running phase.

I agree distance running isn't helpful for quick tennis stops and starts, but I don't huff and puff as much after long points as lots of guys.
 
i was a runner before i started playing tennis and really only did distance and some sprinting for basketbal... however i felt when i came on to the tennis scene, my long distance running helpd me keep good stamina for on the court. however, i also started doing lots of sprints, agility, shorter faster runs along with distance and have recently become one of the best movers in my area. so yes i think that there must be a mix of them and of course working out and strength training as well. plus being a good runner comes with having a good diet which is very important!
and ps RUNNERS HIGH IS EXTREMELY ADDICTIVE as was mentioned.
 

mb73

New User
This is true of course. Still, I hate to provide "built in" excuses for people to avoid running.

I used to pack on the miles 10-15 years ago. I was the same height I am now (6' 1") and weighed 150-160. I could run all day and it was easy. I used to do 30-50 miles / week I would say on average. I did that for 5 years straight and then a little more on and off for another 5-7 years. By the way, I never had any injuries apart from a mild discomfort in my knee on occasion. My solution for this? Listen to my body and stop running for as long as necessary. I think my longest recovery from this was 2 weeks, so it was nothing major (but I am extremely risk averse by nature so I probably recovered longer than was necessary). The other problem runners have are respiratory infections (you are constantly in a weakened state so your immune system is not as strong, thus more prone to this type of thing). My solution to this was to eat LARGE amounts of food (people were astounded to see how much I ate on a daily basis and I was always around 6% bodyfat or so. Just the way it was in those days).

Now I weigh 210 (trying to get down to 195 - 200). Am I big and fat? Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am about 15% - 17% bodyfat (so pretty average I suppose). Of course running is much harder than it was before. I only do about 15-20 miles / week and my pace is much slower. Still, I don't feel like I am in any danger of hurting myself. I still do sprint / track work as well, but nowhere near as much as I used to. I have done HIIT before, but it really wasn't to my liking. I also didn't feel like it gave me any sort of an edge on the tennis court. Let's be honest, at my level, my movement issues on the tennis court have more to do with "smarts" than with physical limitations.

I also do a lot of bodyweight exercises (handstand push-ups, ab-wheel roll outs, L-seats, hanging leg raises to the bar, crucifix rollouts, dips, wide grip dips, wide grip pull-ups, pistol squats, and others). They are much tougher to do for a big guy compared to a little guy (it is much easier for me to lift heavy weights than do this stuff). But being big is no excuse for not doing it. It just takes longer to get comfortable / master the skill.

(By the way, when is the last time you saw a 210 - 215 lb. guy doing handstands in your gym? I try to do them in a private little corner so nobody sees me. I always get interested spectators if anyone does happen to see me. I imagine it looks a little odd).

Thank you for a well-written post!
 
Moderation....something many runners do not use. The fact is long term long distance running does cause tons of problems over time. There is no denying the statistics of ortho doctors who deal with these injuries.

Mix it up. High intensity interval training is great, mix in 1-2 weekly sessions of longer duration cardio. Sprinkle in some flexibility training, strength training.

And it does not have to be only running for the longer duration cardio.....swimming, biking, other sports, all good stuff to break the monotony.

And take some 7-10 day breaks during the year for better recovery.
 

mb73

New User
Congratulations to OP for being in a good place physically and mentally. It seems, though, that there's some backlash to being "evangelical" about running.

I've run between 3 and 4.5 miles, twice a week, for a number of years. I do it for cardiovascular fitness and weight control mostly. I don't love it and I don't hate it, but I like it more that treadmills (ugh.)

I think people who really love running are more at risk of injuries because they do it too much. I had a friend once tell me "I love running so much I'd do it even it was bad for me." That ain't me, babe. It hasn't been bad for me, but I'm slow and non-competitive and not inclined to run more and more miles more and more days a week. Don't want to be like Forrest Gump in his running phase.

I agree distance running isn't helpful for quick tennis stops and starts, but I don't huff and puff as much after long points as lots of guys.

I agree about the treadmill part. Stationary running is so boring to me! You are also very much right in that you've got to listen to your body. If you get soreness where you are not normally sore, that's usually a warning sign. That's when it's good to take a break from running and let the body heal. I have put several thousand miles on the road and have thankfully only had one little bout with tendonitis in my left Achilles. I stopped running for two weeks using common sense to avoid more serious injury. I have never had any other issues outside of this one isolated occurrence. To be truthful, I can trace that back to a sharp increase in my mileage too quickly. Again, I learned to not make drastic changes in speed and mileage in my running program.

I also like the thing you said about not huffing and puffing as much as a lot of guys after long points. That's a great feeling, isn't it? Just knowing you have achieved a level of physical fitness like that feels great! It's a big confidence booster, too, in my opinion!
 

mb73

New User
I also want to add something. Those who are fundamentally opposed to running for distance like to say it's not natural for the body to run that much. We are tennis players. Are you saying it's natural to pronate one's arm while serving the daylights out of a tennis ball? I've had more shoulder issues (albeit minor ones) from tennis than problems from running...ever! Regardless of whether you agree with me, you'd be very hard pressed to convince me that any sport is more natural for the body than running. What else do you need besides a good pair of shoes to run? If you have good form and use COMMON SENSE, you will realize your body was MADE to run.

LOL I will try to not be so evangelical about running now! I simply feel like there is so much misinformation, even from the medical community, regarding running. Remember, at one time we used leeches to help reduce fever. Medicine continually evolves as we live and learn. Hopefully so do we!
 

mb73

New User
Moderation....something many runners do not use. The fact is long term long distance running does cause tons of problems over time. There is no denying the statistics of ortho doctors who deal with these injuries.

Mix it up. High intensity interval training is great, mix in 1-2 weekly sessions of longer duration cardio. Sprinkle in some flexibility training, strength training.

And it does not have to be only running for the longer duration cardio.....swimming, biking, other sports, all good stuff to break the monotony.

And take some 7-10 day breaks during the year for better recovery.

You are also very wise. A body must heal after any intense workout, including going out for a long run. Cross training with biking, swimming, the elliptical, rowing machine...all of these are great ideas for all around fitness.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I agree about the treadmill part. Stationary running is so boring to me!

Not only is it boring, but it is very restrictive. The machine controls the pace and the pace has to be constant (or you have to program something that varies pace, incline, etc, but that is also predetermined, not based on how you feel at any given moment). When I run, my pace, stride, etc. varies constantly. Also, even though I run "straight" (I run so everything moves forward and not side-to-side), I hate being restricted to "striking" on the narrow band. If my balance shifts a bit, I want to be able to naturally stride in accordance with my balance.

I have put several thousand miles on the road and have thankfully only had one little bout with tendonitis in my left Achilles. I stopped running for two weeks using common sense to avoid more serious injury. I have never had any other issues outside of this one isolated occurrence. To be truthful, I can trace that back to a sharp increase in my mileage too quickly. Again, I learned to not make drastic changes in speed and mileage in my running program.

Most people don't have the patience to run. The kids I see in the gym (obvious beginners) run really fast for about 10 minutes one day and then you never see them again. People want instant results. There is nothing instant about running. Slow, gradual, changes and improvements.

Others I have seen just push too hard before they are ready. They don't listen to their bodies and run themselves right into injuries. I will say that, from what I have seen, once the running injuries appear, they don't really go away. This is what I think happens to a lot of people. They get off to a bad start, get some injuries, and then no matter what they do, they keep getting injured again.

I also like the thing you said about not huffing and puffing as much as a lot of guys after long points. That's a great feeling, isn't it? Just knowing you have achieved a level of physical fitness like that feels great! It's a big confidence booster, too, in my opinion!

This is for sure true. My resting heart rate used to be around 30 bpm (measured on a doctors machine). I didn't run for a few years and my resting rate went to about 60 bpm. After getting back into running here again for a few months, my resting rate is back to 40 bpm. Also, my triglycerides and bad cholesterol are almost non-existent (triglycerides are 42 and bad cholesterol doesn't register (not sure what formula they used for the test, but I was told it is below 40)). Good cholesterol is above 60. Running has increased the size of my heart and increased the size of my blood vessels. My heart beats fewer times and still delivers what is necessary. These long-term benefits are priceless.

I am also have anything but a healthy diet. I rarely go out to eat / don't eat fast food and that crap, but I cook with lots of butter, oil, salt rubs, cream, etc. Even when losing weight over winter (I lost 45 lbs.), I didn't drastically change my diet. I ate less, but I didn't eat really healthy. I did increase my exercise however.
 
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maverick66

Hall of Fame
Mix it up. High intensity interval training is great, mix in 1-2 weekly sessions of longer duration cardio. Sprinkle in some flexibility training, strength training.

I agree that variety is good. But distance running has no place in your mix. Tennis players already pound there bodies. Why add an exercise to the mix that pounds it worse when you can help yourself more with sprints and circuit training? I did my strength and conditioning to stay on the court and to improve not pound my body more.


And take some 7-10 day breaks during the year for better recovery.

I know this is a personal thing but I felt like crap if I didnt do some fitness or hitting for a week. I had to keep moving and might lessen the load but would never really stop. 1-2 days rest was all I could do before I was itching to work again.

I also want to add something. Those who are fundamentally opposed to running for distance like to say it's not natural for the body to run that much. We are tennis players. Are you saying it's natural to pronate one's arm while serving the daylights out of a tennis ball? I've had more shoulder issues (albeit minor ones) from tennis than problems from running...ever!

When people in here talk strength and conditioning I assume they are tennis players. Tennis players dont need to add distance running because there bodies will take the pounding. There is no sport that is natural for us but we play because we enjoy. To add distance running to your routine on top of tennis is just asking to be hurt.


Regardless of whether you agree with me, you'd be very hard pressed to convince me that any sport is more natural for the body than running. What else do you need besides a good pair of shoes to run? If you have good form and use COMMON SENSE, you will realize your body was MADE to run.

I dont agree with you. All the evidence given to us about how long distance running doesnt help tennis players and you still argue it? We know through a whole bunch of tests that it doesnt help us to run.

LOL I will try to not be so evangelical about running now! I simply feel like there is so much misinformation, even from the medical community, regarding running. Remember, at one time we used leeches to help reduce fever. Medicine continually evolves as we live and learn. Hopefully so do we!

the doctors and physical therapists looked at what was the common thing a lot of injuries had in common. Runners where a consistent group in their office. Long distance running wheres the body down. I am not talking like hard blown knees but every nagging injury known to your lower body comes from running long distances.
 

Kevin T

Hall of Fame
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1948208,00.html

I'm not arguing the efficacy of long distance running for tennis improvement but I also don't call 4-5 mile sessions long distance running. Marathons and ultras are long distance but 10ks and 10 milers aren't so bad, IMHO. Now I'm 6'3", 225# and the good Lord didn't have a runner in mind when I was made but I'm 35yo and have ran 15-20 miles/week for 20 years without a running-related injury. I think most serious runners mix up their training regimen anyway. My fave runs are 5k, 10k and the occassional 10 miler. When taking a break from tennis/squash, I usually run 3-4 miles at good pace twice a week, run 400m x 8 one day, sprints one day with a 5-6 mile run on the weekend. I also do all my running on trails/grass to lighten the pounding. I've also been dabbling in bicycling to mix things up. Like TennisCoach said, it's all about moderation and the benefits of moderate running outweigh the negatives.
 

nfor304

Banned
I also want to add something. Those who are fundamentally opposed to running for distance like to say it's not natural for the body to run that much. We are tennis players. Are you saying it's natural to pronate one's arm while serving the daylights out of a tennis ball? I've had more shoulder issues (albeit minor ones) from tennis than problems from running...ever! Regardless of whether you agree with me, you'd be very hard pressed to convince me that any sport is more natural for the body than running. What else do you need besides a good pair of shoes to run? If you have good form and use COMMON SENSE, you will realize your body was MADE to run.

LOL I will try to not be so evangelical about running now! I simply feel like there is so much misinformation, even from the medical community, regarding running. Remember, at one time we used leeches to help reduce fever. Medicine continually evolves as we live and learn. Hopefully so do we!

Hey mb73, have you read the book Born to Run by Chris Mcdougall? I read it recently and found it to be quite eye opening on the subject of whether or not humans were actually meant to be able to run long distances. If nothing else its a very entertaining read, especially if you are a keen runner.

http://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307266303
 
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snoopy

Professional
Apparently humans were designed to run something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8

It is endurance based but there are lots of spurts, lots of walking.

This isn't the same as running a 7:45 min pace for 8 straight miles.


If you can do long distance running and play tennis w/o getting hurt that's great. But I don't think that works out well for most body types.
 

mb73

New User
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1948208,00.html

I'm not arguing the efficacy of long distance running for tennis improvement but I also don't call 4-5 mile sessions long distance running. Marathons and ultras are long distance but 10ks and 10 milers aren't so bad, IMHO. Now I'm 6'3", 225# and the good Lord didn't have a runner in mind when I was made but I'm 35yo and have ran 15-20 miles/week for 20 years without a running-related injury. I think most serious runners mix up their training regimen anyway. My fave runs are 5k, 10k and the occassional 10 miler. When taking a break from tennis/squash, I usually run 3-4 miles at good pace twice a week, run 400m x 8 one day, sprints one day with a 5-6 mile run on the weekend. I also do all my running on trails/grass to lighten the pounding. I've also been dabbling in bicycling to mix things up. Like TennisCoach said, it's all about moderation and the benefits of moderate running outweigh the negatives.

I know a couple of ultramarathoners, and I think it's amazing in itself that they can do what they do (and without any sort of injuries I might add)! Now people who run that much are less likely to engage very seriously in another sport, such as tennis, just because they spend so much time running. But, you're right in that 4, 5 or even 10 miles isn't really what most runners would consider LONG distance...just more distance than the average person would likely consider running.
 

mb73

New User

mb73

New User
r2473, kudos to you for the wonderful things you have done for your mind and body! Keep up the great work!
 

autumn_leaf

Hall of Fame
took a jogging and running class this semester. after a few days i'm pretty sure i now have plantar faciitus.... i rather do HIIT or plyos.
 

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
I agree about the treadmill part. Stationary running is so boring to me! You are also very much right in that you've got to listen to your body. If you get soreness where you are not normally sore, that's usually a warning sign. That's when it's good to take a break from running and let the body heal. I have put several thousand miles on the road and have thankfully only had one little bout with tendonitis in my left Achilles. I stopped running for two weeks using common sense to avoid more serious injury. I have never had any other issues outside of this one isolated occurrence. To be truthful, I can trace that back to a sharp increase in my mileage too quickly. Again, I learned to not make drastic changes in speed and mileage in my running program.

I also like the thing you said about not huffing and puffing as much as a lot of guys after long points. That's a great feeling, isn't it? Just knowing you have achieved a level of physical fitness like that feels great! It's a big confidence booster, too, in my opinion!

I disagree on that part. Perhaps personal preference. I love running on treadmill and i HATE running outdoors/parks/tracks. I actually have a hard time believing that people love running outdoors especially on normal roads.

I do VIIT (variable intensity interval training) and average 12 miles a week and i always make sure that my workouts have a <7 min a mile run. I pay lots of attention to body and take a few days break if i feel like resting.

There is all sorts of advise these days and i take them with common sense as i feel fit for my needs. The proof for me is ability to last one more point longer than the opponent can and sustain the high level of play--tracking down balls , hard to reach shots and what not.
 

larry10s

Hall of Fame
Apparently humans were designed to run something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8

It is endurance based but there are lots of spurts, lots of walking.

This isn't the same as running a 7:45 min pace for 8 straight miles.


If you can do long distance running and play tennis w/o getting hurt that's great. But I don't think that works out well for most body types.

were those the new barricades he was using?
 

Moz

Hall of Fame
There's more crap out there in the ether written about running by non-runners than I can stomach. In my experience the vast majority of the medical community are totally and utterly ignorant in their treatment of runners / tennis players etc. Much of the time injuries are caused by addressable mechanical issues, but are unfortunately treated by addressing the symptoms rather than the causes. This is the number one cause of repeat visits to the physio not the nature of the sport itself.

However, I have found one thing to be true. You can't train properly for running and for tennis at the same time.
 

Xenakis

Hall of Fame
Good one for the persistence hunting link. I was going to post something about that when I started reading the thread.

It could be argued that running long distances is exactly what we are evolved for physically (where is the evidence to the contrary to support the view Mav is advocating?).

We run on two legs (present less body surface area to the sun and our brains are far from the hot ground), we have very little body hair (stay cool) and we have the right kind of hands and brains to use tools like holding containers of water to increase our range (and the brains to keep track of the same animal over a period of time).

What other animal could persistence hunt as effectively?

Oh also, surely some running injuries are caused by running on concrete/hard surfaces? That isn't something we evolved to do, though we are smart enough to make shoes which lessen the impact of the hard surfaces that surround us (designed for wheeled transport mostly).
 
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heycal

Hall of Fame
My orthopedist always recommends running, as he hopes to get himself a larger boat.

I bet you guys had a good laugh over this one while he was treating you for your latest tennis injury.

I also want to add something. Those who are fundamentally opposed to running for distance like to say it's not natural for the body to run that much. We are tennis players. Are you saying it's natural to pronate one's arm while serving the daylights out of a tennis ball? I've had more shoulder issues (albeit minor ones) from tennis than problems from running...ever! !

Exactly. I'm not a big time runner, but it's very hard to believe that running in moderation is going to cause nearly as much trauma and injury as tennis does, and to the entire body. (When's the last time a runner developed tennis elbow??)

I can't imagine the injury rate per hour of running is anywhere near the injury rate per hour of tennis.
 
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Moz

Hall of Fame
Exactly. I'm not a big time runner, but there's so way running in moderation is going to cause nearly as much trauma and injury as tennis does, and to the entire body. When's the last time a runner developed tennis elbow?

Sensible running = a gradual increase in stress on the tendons so they slowly become stronger and more resistance to the strain placed upon them. That's how you condition connective tissues so you are then able to run quickly and apply explosive movement safely. It's a progressive increase in training load.

But that's somehow worse than the continuous blunt trauma applied to tendons on a tennis court which are being pulled in a variety of directions? Tendons that immediately are expected to bear such massive stresses, topped off by explosive sprinting. All of which is instituted without any sort of connective tissue conditioning period.

Even if you are tennis player a period of easy running will help prepare your connective tissues - and preparation they will need if they are to support intense sprint conditioning and tennis training. No one is suggesting you run 10 miles in the morning and then train for tennis in the afternoon. No one is suggesting you ramp up mileage unwisely or make mileage your goal or even let it interfere with your faster work.

But to suggest that running has no part to play in developing vital connective tissue tolerance is nonsense. Weight training helps with strength but doesn't allow for impact conditioning.

As usual the answer lies somewhere in the middle in compromise - but that's not as attractive or easy as taking a strict dogma at either end of the spectrum. It's lazy thinking.
 

FastFreddy

Semi-Pro
Nice

Not only is it boring, but it is very restrictive. The machine controls the pace and the pace has to be constant (or you have to program something that varies pace, incline, etc, but that is also predetermined, not based on how you feel at any given moment). When I run, my pace, stride, etc. varies constantly. Also, even though I run "straight" (I run so everything moves forward and not side-to-side), I hate being restricted to "striking" on the narrow band. If my balance shifts a bit, I want to be able to naturally stride in accordance with my balance.



Most people don't have the patience to run. The kids I see in the gym (obvious beginners) run really fast for about 10 minutes one day and then you never see them again. People want instant results. There is nothing instant about running. Slow, gradual, changes and improvements.

Others I have seen just push too hard before they are ready. They don't listen to their bodies and run themselves right into injuries. I will say that, from what I have seen, once the running injuries appear, they don't really go away. This is what I think happens to a lot of people. They get off to a bad start, get some injuries, and then no matter what they do, they keep getting injured again.



This is for sure true. My resting heart rate used to be around 30 bpm (measured on a doctors machine). I didn't run for a few years and my resting rate went to about 60 bpm. After getting back into running here again for a few months, my resting rate is back to 40 bpm. Also, my triglycerides and bad cholesterol are almost non-existent (triglycerides are 42 and bad cholesterol doesn't register (not sure what formula they used for the test, but I was told it is below 40)). Good cholesterol is above 60. Running has increased the size of my heart and increased the size of my blood vessels. My heart beats fewer times and still delivers what is necessary. These long-term benefits are priceless.

I am also have anything but a healthy diet. I rarely go out to eat / don't eat fast food and that crap, but I cook with lots of butter, oil, salt rubs, cream, etc. Even when losing weight over winter (I lost 45 lbs.), I didn't drastically change my diet. I ate less, but I didn't eat really healthy. I did increase my exercise however.

Way to go and lose 45lbs good job!!
 

Xenakis

Hall of Fame
Moz: I'm thinking about starting to do some running, what distances or types of running would be beneficial? (including some ways of building up stamina as I've never really done any running and consequently know nothing about it, hence questions).

Also is it better to run on grass or pavement? (I've got a big park near me so could run on grass if it's better for the joints).

Thanks in advance if you get the chance to reply.
 

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
Not only is it boring, but it is very restrictive. The machine controls the pace and the pace has to be constant (or you have to program something that varies pace, incline, etc, but that is also predetermined, not based on how you feel at any given moment). When I run, my pace, stride, etc. varies constantly. Also, even though I run "straight" (I run so everything moves forward and not side-to-side), I hate being restricted to "striking" on the narrow band. If my balance shifts a bit, I want to be able to naturally stride in accordance with my balance.



Most people don't have the patience to run. The kids I see in the gym (obvious beginners) run really fast for about 10 minutes one day and then you never see them again. People want instant results. There is nothing instant about running. Slow, gradual, changes and improvements.

Others I have seen just push too hard before they are ready. They don't listen to their bodies and run themselves right into injuries. I will say that, from what I have seen, once the running injuries appear, they don't really go away. This is what I think happens to a lot of people. They get off to a bad start, get some injuries, and then no matter what they do, they keep getting injured again.



This is for sure true. My resting heart rate used to be around 30 bpm (measured on a doctors machine). I didn't run for a few years and my resting rate went to about 60 bpm. After getting back into running here again for a few months, my resting rate is back to 40 bpm. Also, my triglycerides and bad cholesterol are almost non-existent (triglycerides are 42 and bad cholesterol doesn't register (not sure what formula they used for the test, but I was told it is below 40)). Good cholesterol is above 60. Running has increased the size of my heart and increased the size of my blood vessels. My heart beats fewer times and still delivers what is necessary. These long-term benefits are priceless.

I am also have anything but a healthy diet. I rarely go out to eat / don't eat fast food and that crap, but I cook with lots of butter, oil, salt rubs, cream, etc. Even when losing weight over winter (I lost 45 lbs.), I didn't drastically change my diet. I ate less, but I didn't eat really healthy. I did increase my exercise however.

I dont believe your resting heart rate of 30 (Lance Armstrong has it at 32), but thats my belief anywayz and will have no bearing on anything else.

Looks like you and me otherwise follow similar paths except for running outdoor vs indoor. I love running on a tread mill---very controlled and i can make adjustments with minimum variable change.

I never believed in diet control and have always eaten what i feel like. I however do focus on my work outs and VIIT's and thats what keeps me slim and fit.
 

snoopy

Professional
Things are getting mixed up here.

People aren't saying running is hard on your body and tennis isn't.

Both tennis and serious distance running cause a lot of wear and tear.

Therefore it's sensible to say, people primarily interested in playing tennis should seek to minimize the abuse their body takes by not doing a lot of long distance running. There are other less physically demanding ways of doing cardio.

I think we can all agree on that.
 

snoopy

Professional
Good one for the persistence hunting link. I was going to post something about that when I started reading the thread.

It could be argued that running long distances is exactly what we are evolved for physically (where is the evidence to the contrary to support the view Mav is advocating?).

We run on two legs (present less body surface area to the sun and our brains are far from the hot ground), we have very little body hair (stay cool) and we have the right kind of hands and brains to use tools like holding containers of water to increase our range (and the brains to keep track of the same animal over a period of time).

What other animal could persistence hunt as effectively?

Oh also, surely some running injuries are caused by running on concrete/hard surfaces? That isn't something we evolved to do, though we are smart enough to make shoes which lessen the impact of the hard surfaces that surround us (designed for wheeled transport mostly).



The people in that video aren't running non-stop. They are tracking the animal, not racing against it.
 

heycal

Hall of Fame
Things are getting mixed up here.

People aren't saying running is hard on your body and tennis isn't.

Both tennis and serious distance running cause a lot of wear and tear.

Therefore it's sensible to say, people primarily interested in playing tennis should seek to minimize the abuse their body takes by not doing a lot of long distance running. There are other less physically demanding ways of doing cardio.

I think we can all agree on that.

The confusion came from posters who assumed that the OP was talking about running as a training supplement to tennis, when he never suggested such a thing.
 

Davis937

Professional
If you haven't tried it, I highly recommend that you try a little slower-paced distance running. Just like everything else, start off with shorter runs and work your way up. It's great for the mind and the body of a tennis lover!

Hey, mb73 ... you must be reading my mind ... I've recently put on some uneeded/unwanted pounds and have been toying with the idea of jogging again ... you sold me ... I'm trying to remind myself to forget the pain ... and just focus on the benefits ... and ... the JOYS of slow, long distance running ... wish me luck ... and ... I agree with your follow-up posts (in response to the nay sayers) ... one just needs to use some common sense and to proceed slowly ... p.s. you write well ... if you don't mind my asking, what kind of work do you do (general response OK to protect your confidentiality).
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I dont believe your resting heart rate of 30 (Lance Armstrong has it at 32), but thats my belief anywayz and will have no bearing on anything else.

I don't really care I guess. It measured between 30-34 twice a week for a while donating plasma. They hook you up to a simple device that counts bpm. They always made me walk around for a minute to get it over 50 (which was the lowest they allowed). I tested myself many times first thing after waking up and got readings as low as 28.

I played singles for 3 hours this morning and just tested myself while typing this and got 44 (22 for 30 seconds). And like I said, I just started running "waster miles" again this winter after not running for years (and getting really fat). It is the kind of thing that doesn't go away too fast. Once your heart actually increases in size, it doesn't shrink back again overnight. It is a permanent change you get to take with you for life.

But, if 30 it too low for anyone to believe, I'm fine with that.
 

mb73

New User
There's more crap out there in the ether written about running by non-runners than I can stomach. In my experience the vast majority of the medical community are totally and utterly ignorant in their treatment of runners / tennis players etc. Much of the time injuries are caused by addressable mechanical issues, but are unfortunately treated by addressing the symptoms rather than the causes. This is the number one cause of repeat visits to the physio not the nature of the sport itself.

However, I have found one thing to be true. You can't train properly for running and for tennis at the same time.

I can't agree with you more! Very good post. You cannot train for both sports simultaneously. To me, running is simply another tool I utilize for overall fitness just as is proper nutrition and a little light sensible weight training for overall muscle tone and conditioning. But, if my goal were to race (and do it well), I wouldn't have much room for tennis in my life.
 

mb73

New User
Sensible running = a gradual increase in stress on the tendons so they slowly become stronger and more resistance to the strain placed upon them. That's how you condition connective tissues so you are then able to run quickly and apply explosive movement safely. It's a progressive increase in training load.

But that's somehow worse than the continuous blunt trauma applied to tendons on a tennis court which are being pulled in a variety of directions? Tendons that immediately are expected to bear such massive stresses, topped off by explosive sprinting. All of which is instituted without any sort of connective tissue conditioning period.

Even if you are tennis player a period of easy running will help prepare your connective tissues - and preparation they will need if they are to support intense sprint conditioning and tennis training. No one is suggesting you run 10 miles in the morning and then train for tennis in the afternoon. No one is suggesting you ramp up mileage unwisely or make mileage your goal or even let it interfere with your faster work.

But to suggest that running has no part to play in developing vital connective tissue tolerance is nonsense. Weight training helps with strength but doesn't allow for impact conditioning.

As usual the answer lies somewhere in the middle in compromise - but that's not as attractive or easy as taking a strict dogma at either end of the spectrum. It's lazy thinking.

It sounds like you are a student of my own same school of thought!
 
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