Can't close my racquet face at impact

Taita87

Rookie
Hi, do you have any tip it advice to help me close the racquet face at impact? When I impact it's almost perpendicular to the ground..
Sometimes if I try without the ball I can succeed in that, but when I'm training with ball I return to the perpendicular face.

Look at federer.. It's almost 45 degrees closed.. And I have the same grip and similar launch angle racquet
2pta41y.jpg
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Hi, do you have any tip it advice to help me close the racquet face at impact? When I impact it's almost perpendicular to the ground..
Sometimes if I try without the ball I can succeed in that, but when I'm training with ball I return to the perpendicular face.

Look at federer.. It's almost 45 degrees closed.. And I have the same grip and similar launch angle racquet
2pta41y.jpg

For the most part is racquet face is more flat (sih) at contact than after contact as part of the follow thru, which is what that frame shows. Check out any of the slomo vids of him. This is good and the thumbnail even shows the typical racquet angle.

 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Start backwards, with a fully closed racket face at the finish of the followthru..now shadow swing it 100 times a day for a week..or
Change grip to more SW, you are NOT Federer so don't blindly copy everything he does.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Hi, do you have any tip it advice to help me close the racquet face at impact? When I impact it's almost perpendicular to the ground..
Sometimes if I try without the ball I can succeed in that, but when I'm training with ball I return to the perpendicular face.

Look at federer.. It's almost 45 degrees closed.. And I have the same grip and similar launch angle racquet
2pta41y.jpg

Almost perpendicular is fine. Roger's racket was not closed like this just before or as he contacted the ball. Likely it was nearly perpendicular or only a few degrees closed as he made contact. But, because he contacted the ball low in his string bed in this case, his racket face started to close and by the time that the outgoing ball was about a meter off his strings (when this pic was snapped), his racket faced closed to nearly 45 degrees.

RF%2BRacket%2BPath%2B008.jpg


The green line in the image above represents Roger's racket face at impact -- perhaps 5 degree closed. The red lines show the racket face closing after making contact low in the string bed. If he had made contact in the upper third (or upper half) of the string bed, you would not see it closing like this.




https://tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part.html
.
 

NuBas

Legend
It means you're not swinging correctly, you probably trying to push or guide the ball.
I'm guessing your swing isn't in a circular pattern you probably have a linear flat swing path.

You can try using the cue swinging with your racquet edge and that'll help.
 

Taita87

Rookie
It means you're not swinging correctly, you probably trying to push or guide the ball.
I'm guessing your swing isn't in a circular pattern you probably have a linear flat swing path.

You can try using the cue swinging with your racquet edge and that'll help.

Cue swinging?
 

Taita87

Rookie

This is the main video, I can see each fps and I can assure you he hits with 25-45 racquet angle... Depending on shot
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster

This is the main video, I can see each fps and I can assure you he hits with 25-45 racquet angle... Depending on shot

You're kidding, right? Can't tell much from this video. Frame rate is too low. Played it back 720p HD, full screen at 1/4 speed. Waaay too much blur to see much of anything useful at all. Don't believe that Roger is hitting with anything remotely close to a 45 degree angle. Check out the video in post #10 (as well as the vid in post #2). His racket face is nearly vertical (very slightly closed) at contact. Considerably more closed after contact. Did you take a look at what the experts had to say (post #4). If not, please go back and watch the video and read the link I provided.

Note: When Roger contacts a falling ball (past its peak), his racket face is pretty much vertical. When he contacts a ball that is close to its peak, his racket face is nearly vertical (or slightly closed). When he makes contact with a rising ball, his racket face is sometimes a bit more closed. But it is nowhere close to the 25-45 degrees closed at contact as you suggest.
 
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Taita87

Rookie
I don't play with a lot of top spin, but lot of times I'm long by 10-20-30 cm ...
I think a bit of top spin more woull fix that.. When I record myself a lot of times it seems I hit flatter then I think
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.

This is the main video, I can see each fps and I can assure you he hits with 25-45 racquet angle... Depending on shot

Did you try watching any other video for reference? You couldn't have picked a worse video to use for an example. So either you are troll posting, or just need to improve your understanding of video and tennis. Watch the video I posted, or any other high speed, high def video. You will see a better example of the difference at contact (flat) and folow thru release (angled).

Here are the FH shots from the video I posted for example:

fedflatcontact.jpg
 

Taita87

Rookie
Yeah it seems pretty perpendicular to ground.

Does the immediate after impact pronation(and racquet closure) add something to the spin potential, or it's just the swing path? Because I see I don't close the racquet like him, or at least not immediatly
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
drill/experiement for OP to try...
from your backswing, orient your racquet as if it were lying on a table, then pulll the racquet to contact from there... (adjust your grip however much you need to, to make this feel comfortable - don't get too bogged down with an exact grip (e,sw,w))
first few should probably bounce before the net...
then progressively try:
a) aiming to swing as if you're trying to hit the back fence
b) experiment with keeping yoru racquet less closed (ie. open it slightly) at contact.
this alone with be a radical change, especially if your starting swing (in your backswing position), has the racquet in a perpedicular to the ground position

side note: if you change your grip from conti to more sw or w, your contact point will change as well..
gl!
 
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NuBas

Legend
Cue swinging?

What I meant was use this method - swing with your racquet edge or lead with it.

Is this an aesthetic thing or functional thing cause if your ball is in that's fine. Roger is swinging/throwing at an exceptionally fast speed at very fast balls so he has to close his face more. If he hit like you his balls would fly.
 

Taita87

Rookie
What I meant was use this method - swing with your racquet edge or lead with it.

Is this an aesthetic thing or functional thing cause if your ball is in that's fine. Roger is swinging/throwing at an exceptionally fast speed at very fast balls so he has to close his face more. If he hit like you his balls would fly.

It's definitely a functional thing. As I said, the majority of points lost from me are balls going long
 

NuBas

Legend
It's definitely a functional thing. As I said, the majority of points lost from me are balls going long

Your swing looks good. Again, the speed and pace you versus Roger is quite different so you will see his face closed at extremes or exaggerated. You could make an intent to focus on the racquet face being closed but I'm not sure what else to tell you other than lead with your racquet edge.
 

NuBas

Legend
Actually I think Roger closes his racquet face or relaxes it after the contact. So like @SystemicAnomaly said perpendicular is fine, its how you relax your racquet afterwards that gives the effect.
 

Taita87

Rookie
This is from a 2 minute section when I was trying to hit in relax..

It looks nice, but when you closely look:
2w53eh1.jpg

Almost perpendicular.. Probably the swing is good because I'm relaxed and I hit really forward.. maybe that's the key
 

FiReFTW

Legend
OP keep experimenting and not theorizing.

Try micro adjustments when swinging amd see how it changes things till you get it right and the ball drops down.
 

NuBas

Legend
This is from a 2 minute section when I was trying to hit in relax..

It looks nice, but when you closely look:
2w53eh1.jpg

Almost perpendicular.. Probably the swing is good because I'm relaxed and I hit really forward.. maybe that's the key

I don't know seems like you're concerned with how it looks. Why don't you post a rally session or match play?
 

time_fly

Hall of Fame
Two things you can play with: move your grip further towards western, which will help you close up your racquet face. Second, make sure you aren't letting your racquet "flop" open when you start your forward swing motion. I battle with my son's forehand all the time with this. I think there can be different causes. In his case, he is much more of a baseball player than tennis player, so he wants to start his swing by using his chest to pull his back elbow down and forward while his hands stay back. If you let your elbow bend and pull forward (relative to your shoulder and the rest of your arm) then your palm will rotate upwards and your racquet will flop open as you come forward. I saw maybe a tiny bit of this "leading with the bent elbow" in your swing. Not nearly as much as his, but it's something to check out.
 
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Pete Player

Hall of Fame
What if, you tried stronger grip?

For the rocord, that impact looks OK to me. If you get too little net clearance, it is more of your swing path.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 

Dan Huben

Semi-Pro
I have the opposite problem, often too high net clearance and balls sailing long on the forehand
Where on the ball do you visualize hitting? With a small break in the wrist to help the ball, you're living thru the bane of many a golfer and tennis players. If your lifting the ball instead of swinging through it will lift rather than spin and fly long.

Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
423108acd50776ec58d8a27248be25af.jpg


Looking the film more thoroughly, I noticed, yet you turn beutifully, your weight vector is pointing up, cause you lean back. Try to get more on the front foot and upright, if not lean a touch forward at impact. The same relative arc woud send the ball more forward, were you upright.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
This is from a 2 minute section when I was trying to hit in relax..

It looks nice, but when you closely look:
2w53eh1.jpg

Almost perpendicular.. Probably the swing is good because I'm relaxed and I hit really forward.. maybe that's the key
swing seems good...
guessing that as you swing faster and faster, or if you're playing with someone supplying the pace/spin, you'll need to close the face more, to get more spin, to bring down the ball...
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
This is from a 2 minute section when I was trying to hit in relax..

It looks nice, but when you closely look:
2w53eh1.jpg

Almost perpendicular.. Probably the swing is good because I'm relaxed and I hit really forward.. maybe that's the key


Are you mostly hitting in the net or long? What is it that is the problem you are having with the FH?

What I would be interested in seeing is to have you post a longer video, and preferably with a selection of shots were you need to move and setup.

In this one shot you post everything racquet wise looks okay, though you are hitting low on the string bed. My only thoght would be rec players that consistently hit low on the string bed end up twisting the racquet face up often to compenstate, and with a long video of forehands that might show up. Just a SWAG...
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Looks much more consistent, than mine.

Ouch, it was the same shot over and over again! [emoji15]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Curiosity

Professional
For the most part is racquet face is more flat (sih) at contact than after contact as part of the follow thru, which is what that frame shows. Check out any of the slomo vids of him. This is good and the thumbnail even shows the typical racquet angle.


My two cents, one line at a time. lol.
First, "what does Fed do?"...or other very good players. The angle at and through the instant of contacy is 5º to 8º. It depends how high the ball is at contact, the extent to which you are swinging low to high, and how good you are at swift use of ISR just into contact. The numbers aren't mine, but come from a tennis physics reference.

ISR comes from the rotation of the upper arm bone in the shoulder socket. The muscles that control it are fast twitch and powerful.

ISR (it's easier to see with the straight-arm guys, Fed and Rafa, but others too) does three things, and you don't want them to happen until the instant before contact. It:

1. causes the racquet to tilt forward, closing. You want to train it so that the timing of your ISR application happens so that you're only getting 3º to 6º tilt. (The rest really is just follow through. Once you get it (as in serving pronation...) you'll be able to make the ISR rotation constantly increasing the angle just the right amount at contact. Underdo it at first, so that you don't become frustrated by netting the ball.
2. It causes the racquet to accelerate forward, adding racquet head velocity.
3. It forces the racquet face upward fast so that, timed correctly, you get more topspin.

These three parts work together, and must be trained that way: Especially, the ISR tilt and upward motion in the plane of the stringbed must complement each other. The forward tilt only works to your advantage if you're also getting the upward slide motion. This sounds complicated, but it isn't so difficult in practice. You are currently coming at the ball with a perpindicular RF. Fine. If you did get ESR into the forward launch...which lags in time by millseconds the beginning of UB rotation...you'll have room in the shoulder set-up to provide good ISR into contact.

You can see all these things if you do the things in slo mo in your living room. If your shadow swing imagines contact with the ball well out front, and you keep your wrist loose (help it stay back in your shadow swing), you can, at the end, do fast ISR from the shoulder. You will see the three components, forward motion, upward slide motion, racquet face tilt motion. Since the rest of your swing is pretty decent, you can focus on the ISR into contact. It is a major element, not a minor one. It happens to fast to see without super-slo mo, available in great variety on various sights like tennisplayerDOTcom.

Picky little comments:
You should watch the timing of Fed or Nadal, the synchronization of the off-arm swing and pull-in as it times with the shoulder rotation (not with the racquet's first forward motion, which comes milliseconds later. The off-arm pull in is about helping the UB initiate rotation. The UB has all the power needed to launch the racquet, once it gets going. The UB should very briefly stop in most in-position forhands just as it roughly faces the net...letting it's last power run out into the hitting arm, hand, racquet, racquet head. The stop is extremely brief, then UB is let go, muscles relaxing, racquet closing continuing. You can see this UB stop in any good Fed super slo mo shot from in front.

Hope these comments were clear. I don't have time to edit them.
 

Taita87

Rookie

A bit better concentrating on the internal shoulder rotation.
Some cross forehands in normal motion...

4 things I think I don't do right at all or not right all the times:
1- internal shoulder rotation, it really helps concentrating into it
2- hitting really in front and looking at the impact (they did not learn me that way when I was younger)
3- I think one of the main problem is I often hit not transferring weight forward and uncoiling the upper body too early, especially the left arm, exploding the charged energy too early... I'm also pivoting the right foot and it's ok, the problem is I often lift the left one and I move it back, nullifying the uncoiling

3 slow motion forehands

 
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Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame

A bit better concentrating on the internal shoulder rotation.
Some cross forehands in normal motion...

4 things I think I don't do right at all or not right all the times:
1- internal shoulder rotation, it really helps concentrating into it
2- hitting really in front and looking at the impact (they did not learn me that way when I was younger)
3- I think one of the main problem is I often hit not transferring weight forward and uncoiling the upper body too early, especially the left arm, exploding the charged energy too early... I'm also pivoting the right foot and it's ok, the problem is I often lift the left one and I move it back, nullifying the uncoiling

3 slow motion forehands

Looks good, I can see maybe you could hit it more out front but your doing well there, back peddling quick steps looked good .14s good balance kick, 1:09 way to lean into it
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
OP,

Honestly I am not seeing a big, worthwhile difference between your first video and this recent one. Maybe you're just trying harder and being more consistent in your own form that you may see some improvement.

At this point I have a question for you and other people regarding this:

Without a coach, how do you ensure you're hitting and reinforcing a correct form? When you're playing, are you conscious of check points?

I may be able to do a few of "Nadal looking" strokes but overall it's really difficult to maintain it. I think the problem is 1) lack of a coach to remind you to fix it immediately; 2) we don't really know all and various optimal, correct hitting positions. We approach all balls with the same hitting form/thinking and inevitably get pretty awkward and suboptimal.
 

NuBas

Legend
Are you trying to emulate Federer to the smallest degree? I don't see what your thread purpose is, other than trying to look aesthetically the same or are you actually losing matches because your balls are flying out.

No professional player or even rec players think about internal shoulder rotation, that's kinda bogus most are focused on hitting the ball. The body thing happens by itself especially what goes on inside your body.

Your strokes look fine, they look like they could win matches, isn't that your priority?
 

Taita87

Rookie
Are you trying to emulate Federer to the smallest degree? I don't see what your thread purpose is, other than trying to look aesthetically the same or are you actually losing matches because your balls are flying out.

I'm not a native English speaker and this may be the problem. What is that you don't understand?
The name of the thread says it all... During discussion I already answered your question saying that the problem is my forehands are going often long (high launch angle).
So, what's the purpose of asking for the third time about emulating federer?


OP,

Honestly I am not seeing a big, worthwhile difference between your first video and this recent one. Maybe you're just trying harder and being more consistent in your own form that you may see some improvement.

At this point I have a question for you and other people regarding this:

Without a coach, how do you ensure you're hitting and reinforcing a correct form? When you're playing, are you conscious of check points?

In general I record myself quite often. A lot of times it's a matter of concentration, good positioning and footwork. Sometimes, when I see an error happening too much, I start to investigate more accurately and that's the case.

Having a coach means a lot of money. Of course it could be A lot better, but you try to improve with what you have.
Using the forum is one of these ways.

Every time I play I try to practice what I've read in the past days and it takes time to become effective at it or just doing it correctly (maybe that's why you don't see any difference). One thing for sure, yesterday a lot less error going long, so something went better. Maybe it's just the subconscious trying to hit with more top spin, I don't know.

But the errors or key points I listed in the last post, in my humble opinion, are errors I should work on
 

MajesticMoose

Hall of Fame
It's all about RHS and path of swing. Not so much about how your racquet face looks at the exact moment of impact. Perpendicular is perfectly fine.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
You're kidding, right? Can't tell much from this video. Frame rate is too low. Played it back 720p HD, full screen at 1/4 speed. Waaay too much blur to see much of anything useful at all. Don't believe that Roger is hitting with anything remotely close to a 45 degree angle. Check out the video in post #10 (as well as the vid in post #2). His racket face is nearly vertical (very slightly closed) at contact. Considerably more closed after contact. Did you take a look at what the experts had to say (post #4). If not, please go back and watch the video and read the link I provided.

Note: When Roger contacts a falling ball (past its peak), his racket face is pretty much vertical. When he contacts a ball that is close to its peak, his racket face is nearly vertical (or slightly closed). When he makes contact with a rising ball, his racket face is sometimes a bit more closed. But it is nowhere close to the 25-45 degrees closed at contact as you suggest.

What I have noticed watching many slow motion videos is that many of the pro forehands do hit slightly below center of the racket. Which is what gives the impression that their racket is really closed or angled, but like already mentioned that is because of the contact being off center causes the racket to roll over.

I think that they usually hit with a racket face that is a few degrees closed at contact. But it’s interesting how many shots they hit slightly below center, even though on this site many argue that this rarely happens and they hit dead center almost every time which is not true.
 

NuBas

Legend
I'm not a native English speaker and this may be the problem. What is that you don't understand?
The name of the thread says it all... During discussion I already answered your question saying that the problem is my forehands are going often long (high launch angle).
So, what's the purpose of asking for the third time about emulating federer?

Maybe better to show a video from behind.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Hi, do you have any tip it advice to help me close the racquet face at impact? When I impact it's almost perpendicular to the ground..
Sometimes if I try without the ball I can succeed in that, but when I'm training with ball I return to the perpendicular face.

Look at federer.. It's almost 45 degrees closed.. And I have the same grip and similar launch angle racquet
2pta41y.jpg

That is not a good choice to see the 'angle of the racket face'. Off centerline impacts will rapidly turn the rackt face. It the ball is contacted below the centerline, the racket rapidly closes, if above centerline, the racket face opens. Always choose a frame from a high speed video only before impact.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.

........................................................
Some cross forehands in normal motion...

4 things I think I don't do right at all or not right all the times:
1- internal shoulder rotation, it really helps concentrating into it
2- hitting really in front and looking at the impact (they did not learn me that way when I was younger)
3- I think one of the main problem is I often hit not transferring weight forward and uncoiling the upper body too early, especially the left arm, exploding the charged energy too early... I'm also pivoting the right foot and it's ok, the problem is I often lift the left one and I move it back, nullifying the uncoiling

3 slow motion forehands


On the first impact you seem to be reaching farther forward to impact the ball. On the other two forehands the racket face is closed at impact.

I associate a linear stroke with 'weight transfer' with 'stepping forward'. I associate a rotational stroke with feet and legs not moving forward but rotating the body. I use the video below.

Which forehand would you be doing using Dan Brown's description of the traditional vs modern forehand? See 4:30 superimposed videos.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
What I have noticed watching many slow motion videos is that many of the pro forehands do hit slightly below center of the racket. Which is what gives the impression that their racket is really closed or angled, but like already mentioned that is because of the contact being off center causes the racket to roll over.

I think that they usually hit with a racket face that is a few degrees closed at contact. But it’s interesting how many shots they hit slightly below center, even though on this site many argue that this rarely happens and they hit dead center almost every time which is not true.

Even, if they hit it dead center, the racket flips closed, because the force vectors make it turn over. And the reason for it to do it so fast is, that they have loose arm and wrist hitting full shots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
..................................
It looks nice, but when you closely look:
2w53eh1.jpg

Almost perpendicular.. Probably the swing is good because I'm relaxed and I hit really forward.. maybe that's the key

2w53eh1.jpg

The racket face is closed in this picture, use the floor as a horizontal reference.

A rough estimate for how closed the racket face should be is 5-10 d on a forehand drive with top spin. (See Tennissspeed forehands of Federer and Djokovic). The racket is closed at a considerable angle in the picture above. Looks probably OK. If you want to measure 5-10 d you need more careful measurements. Don't put the camera on the floor, use a tripod. Have a good vertical or horizontal reference line behind in the background near the racket. Be aware of wide angle lens distortions (smartphones) such as the bend in the vertical structure on the right in the above picture. Only use the center the camera's field of view for wide angle lenses such as smartphones.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
ND+IZ+Pronation+005.jpg

You should take high speed video of your forehand and compare it to high level forehands.

1) Grip. You change the angle of the strings to your palm by rotating the racket to new bevel reference points. Try it with a racket.

2) Grip. You change the angle of the forearm to the racket by where you place two hand reference points on two bevel reference points. Almost always the index knuckle is used as one hand reference point. Despite internet instructions referring to the fat pad, most high level players do not place the racket butt on the fat pad of the hand, usually the butt does not reach the fat pad. You can see this in pictures and videos. More often the butt of the racket ends around the little finger. Where the butt is placed in the hand, especially fat pad or around the little finger, affects the forearm to racket angle. Try it with a racket.

3) Stroke, wrist, others. The stroke and wrist also affect how open the strings are.

Compare your forehand technique to high level forehands on average height balls with video.

There are more than one forehand techniques being used.

Look especially at the colored lines that indicate the angles of the racket approaching impact. Djokovic & Federer. These are in the second half of this article.
https://tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part.html
ND+IZ+Pronation+005.jpg


If you have another forehand technique - that has your forearm in a different orientation at impact - do you want to change the grip to make it work?
 

Taita87

Rookie
On the first impact you seem to be reaching farther forward to impact the ball. On the other two forehands the racket face is closed at impact.

I associate a linear stroke with 'weight transfer' with 'stepping forward'. I associate a rotational stroke with feet and legs not moving forward but rotating the body. I use the video below.

Which forehand would you be doing using Dan Brown's description of the traditional vs modern forehand? See 4:30 superimposed videos.

Modern I think
 
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