Can't close my racquet face at impact

[Chas Tennis]

Modern I think

Mixing the thoughts of linear vs circular forehand techniques might be a problem.

In current forehands often the footwork forces rotate the pelvis and even lift the body off the ground, but there is little forward motion. I guess that depends on movement to the ball. ? Study Dan Brown's video and then high level forehands from 2018.

I would have a hard time describing how the leg bones at the hips do what they do....... See the videos.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Forehand impacts showing racket facet angle. Direct sunlight has about 100x as much light as indoor tennis courts = less motion blur for cameras with automatic exposure control.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Effect of location of impact on racket face turn. Shows details of Tennisspeed's excellent display technique.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This is the main video, I can see each fps and I can assure you he hits with 25-45 racquet angle... Depending on shot

Don't use 30 fps video to analyze tennis strokes. There is also excessive motion blur so the racket is poorly seen and its location is uncertain.

An object like the head of a tennis racket, center of strings, that is moving at 100 MPH travels 59" in one frame time at 30 fps. (33 milliseconds).

 

[Pete Player]

I think Brian Gordon is worth listening too. And not only for forehand, but also backhands whether it is one-handed or two-handed. On two-handed it becomes very, very similar to golf swing, yet the orientation - direction of movements is a touch different. But only a touch.

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[NuBas]

I think Brian Gordon is worth listening too. And not only for forehand, but also backhands whether it is one-handed or two-handed. On two-handed it becomes very, very similar to golf swing, yet the orientation - direction of movements is a touch different. But only a touch.

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lol this is so over analysis if you give this to Roger or any pro player they're gonna say wtf.

 

[NuBas]

@Taita87 if your balls are going long, most like from what I see its your trajectory you are putting on the ball. The racquet face closing happens naturally and I honestly don't think you need to worry about it. It may be other things that is throwing off your ball like your aim or maybe you're brushing up too much. Need to show us a video of you playing from behind, we cannot tell what your ball is doing from the side.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I think Brian Gordon is worth listening too. And not only for forehand, but also backhands whether it is one-handed or two-handed. On two-handed it becomes very, very similar to golf swing, yet the orientation - direction of movements is a touch different. But only a touch.

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It is a 50 minute video. When are the relevant times?

 

[Pete Player]

lol this is so over analysis if you give this to Roger or any pro player they're gonna say wtf.

That is why they are players. They do it by heart. We hacks need to understand, what we are supposed trying to do. Cause we don’t have the time and most cases the natural talent, we would need a short-cut, which would be a coach, who understand all, what is in there and spell it in our words. Select proper drills for us to accidentally feel, what they are talking about and guide our thoughts into the right direction. Regular hack hits his forehand with close to stiff wrist, because the motion timing is way off. Without proper timing, one is newer to hit a screamer groundie, yet could hit a heavy topspin.

And all them, sorry, most club coaches don’t have the mental images to make us do, what they can or would like us to do. Instead they only feed. And take our money for their livelyhood. Former ATP-400 try-outs or even worse.


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[Pete Player]

It is a 50 minute video. When are the relevant times?

It was a long time ago, when I watched it thoroughly. So don’t remember, but have it on my fav list on y-tube. But if you slide thru it, the part he’s demonstrating with a racket is worth your while.


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[Hmgraphite1]

I liked 24, 35.4, 45 min points

 

[Chas Tennis]

I liked 24, 35.4, 45 min points

I could not hear too well and was not sure of the context at those times.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

At 24 he talks about the lag and stretch shortening cycle created passively by the racquet being back, not forced back. "Sling shot accelerator", not so much a bent knee push up hip turn, but more a push off to get thrust hip quickly . Causes flip. Flip loads internal rotators so you can adjust the vertical component of the shot.
35.4 Then the pulling of butt cap toward the ball, after the flip. Pull is out and away (trajectory of inside out). Linear racquet acceleration, transitions to angular acceleration.
40 wrist is generally passive leading to contact but is slightly controlled dampened to align the racquet at impact for directional control.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Wondering why the racket face angle was measured at the first Red line. Ball has already left the stringbed for the Red (follow-thru) lines. Yellow lines represent the racket face prior to contact. Contact was made a the Green line (for a mere 4 ms or so). That line appears to be less than 10° closed.

 

[ARKustom93]

Wondering why the racket face angle was measured at the first Red line. Ball has already left the stringbed for the Red (follow-thru) lines. Yellow lines represent the racket face prior to contact. Contact was made a the Green line (for a mere 4 ms or so). That line appears to be less than 10° closed.

First red line likely marks mid point/max impact during the contact phase. Ball is hit slightly below center, resulting in face angle change during contact, otherwise FA would have remained the same from green to 2nd, maybe even 3rd red line.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Wondering why the racket face angle was measured at the first Red line. Ball has already left the stringbed for the Red (follow-thru) lines. Yellow lines represent the racket face prior to contact. Contact was made a the Green line (for a mere 4 ms or so). That line appears to be less than 10° closed.

The Tennisspeed link is in my earlier quoted post.
https://tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part.html

That frame is just one of 8 frames where the angles on the frame are measured. Here is the frame with impact, the green line.

The racket face has
1) an angle before impact,
2) an angle at a random instant of the 4 milliseconds of impact, early or late, etc,
3) rotation after impact with the most rapid rotation rate occurring just after impact. That is slowing and eventually. stopped by the hand. Rotation rate after impact depends on how far off racket center line the ball impact is. See the Tennisspeed site for all 8 frames. These pictures are later in the article, 2/3rds the way through the long article. There is also a Federer sequence.

Some Times to Consider for High Speed Video Analysis.
1) If the green line was captured early in the estimated 4 milliseconds of impact the racket face would not have rotated very much.
2) You can estimate how long the camera exposure time was by estimating the motion blur and comparing it to the time between frames. The shorter the exposure time the smaller the motion blur.
3) At 240 fps, the time between frames is 4.2 milliseconds. With bright sunlight the shutter speed in my Casio FH100 camera can be manually set as short as 0.025 millisecond, just an instant during the impact time estimated at 4 milliseconds.
4) When considering very short times the false artifacts that may appear in camera videos have to be understood. A distortion called Jello Effect will appear in the most common high speed cameras due to the fact that the CMOS sensor is scanned over a period of time. For example, the top left edge of the frame may be readout at an earlier time than the lower right part of the frame. This often produces clearly false bending of rapidly moving objects. If you see the racket bent suspect Jello Effect distortion.

With high speed video with small motion blur and the free Kinovea video analysis application pictures like the above can be produced from videos.

 

[Raul_SJ]

At 24 he talks about the lag and stretch shortening cycle created passively by the racquet being back, not forced back. "Sling shot accelerator", not so much a bent knee push up hip turn, but more a push off to get thrust hip quickly . Causes flip. Flip loads internal rotators so you can adjust the vertical component of the shot.
35.4 Then the pulling of butt cap toward the ball, after the flip. Pull is out and away (trajectory of inside out). Linear racquet acceleration, transitions to angular acceleration.
40 wrist is generally passive leading to contact but is slightly controlled dampened to align the racquet at impact for directional control.

So ideally, one wants the face slightly closed a few degrees at contact. But how can you feel this on court?
Video is very laborious and tedious. Even then, OP examined pro video and made incorrect conclusions about face closing 20+ degrees.

 

[tlm]

So ideally, one wants the face slightly closed a few degrees at contact. But how can you feel this on court?
Video is very laborious and tedious. Even then, OP examined pro video and made incorrect conclusions about face closing 20+ degrees.

I would say that a few degrees closed at contact would be right. That’s why I use a full western and sometimes close to Hawaiin grip so my racket face cannot open to much.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I would say that a few degrees closed at contact would be right. That’s why I use a full western and sometimes close to Hawaiin grip so my racket face cannot open to much.

Yes, a few degrees is ideal. But you can still generate plenty of topspin with a flat face. OP says his shots are going long. He should work on the steeper swing path first before worrying about closing at impact. IMO, the slight closing is secondary to the swing path.

 

[FiReFTW]

So ideally, one wants the face slightly closed a few degrees at contact. But how can you feel this on court?

By seeing what kind of shot your hitting when hitting a certain way?

 

[Raul_SJ]

By seeing what kind of shot your hitting when hitting a certain way?

Certain things are easy to see and feel on court, like low to high swing path and follow thru position.
But whether racquet face at angle is flat at contact or closed 8 degrees is way too subtle and happens too quickly. Also, you can generate great shots with a flat face, even though closed is preferable. So getting a good result does not necessarily tell you the racquet face position at impact.

 

[FiReFTW]

Certain things are easy to see and feel on court, like low to high swing path and follow thru position.
But whether racquet face at angle is flat at contact or closed 8 degrees is too subtle. You can generate great shots either way, even though closed is preferable.

You cant know how much degrees ur racquet is orienting, but you can feel if your doing it more or less or whatever, and by playing months and months and months and years and years you hit many many different variations of shots and of racquet angles (subconsciously).

And you learn with time and with trial and error to hit better and better shots and get more spin or more pace or more penetration etc.. and you learn to control and aim and place and vary more and more by precisely this, slight variations in swingpaths, racquet angle, swings, stances, timing etc..

It all comes with experience, but ur not aware of how much angle it is or how much ur varying it, ita subconscious amd automatic by your feel, you just know how to hit it in order for the ball to have x amount of spin, arc and land at x spot.

But of course u have to actually play and practice with purpose, hitting down the middle and just hitting the ball over and over for years wont really do much.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

So ideally, one wants the face slightly closed a few degrees at contact. But how can you feel this on court?
Video is very laborious and tedious. Even then, OP examined pro video and made incorrect conclusions about face closing 20+ degrees.

What gets me is i'll get a "nice catch", great pocketting shot with major control hit perfectly on the face, but my momentum will be flowing backwards and it will top out heavily into the net. Guess I need to realize to lift it up more, but not sure it won't fly long need more cognizent shots to figure out.

 

[Taita87]

I think I could stay more into the court doing the things I already mentioned..
Forward impact..
Internal shoulder rotation
Postponing my left arm uncoiling

I would add that I probably have a mostly linear swing, so exaggerating the already acclaimed low to high path and the quadriceps flex/extended motion during impact are the biggest factors to work on

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

So ideally, one wants the face slightly closed a few degrees at contact. But how can you feel this on court?
Video is very laborious and tedious. Even then, OP examined pro video and made incorrect conclusions about face closing 20+ degrees.

Few degrees (typically < 10°) closed at contact usually ok. Mileage may vary -- depending on situation or intent. Racket face might be a bit more closed on rising balls, especially on a high contact point. Perhaps, closer to vertical on a falling ball (esp low contact?).

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@Chas Tennis

First red line likely marks mid point/max impact during the contact phase. Ball is hit slightly below center, resulting in face angle change during contact, otherwise FA would have remained the same from green to 2nd, maybe even 3rd red line.

Yes, pretty sure that contact point is low in the stringbed (below center) in that image. Not sure what you mean by "mid-point/max impact during contact phase". How are we defining contact phase here? Contact time (4ms) plus some amount of time before and after contact, I assume. Anyway, in reading the link posted by Chas in post #66, the first red line in this instance represents the racket face orientation 4.8ms after contact. The green line is, indeed, contact. And last yellow line prior to the green line is 4.8ms prior to contact.

 

[ARKustom93]

@Chas Tennis


Yes, pretty sure that contact point is low in the stringbed (below center) in that image. Not sure what you mean by "mid-point/max impact during contact phase". How are we defining contact phase here? Contact time (4ms) plus some amount of time before and after contact, I assume. Anyway, in reading the link posted by Chas in post #66, the first red line in this instance represents the racket face orientation 4.8ms after contact. The green line is, indeed, contact. And last yellow line prior to the green line is 4.8ms prior to contact.

Your interpretation re time line is correct. The pic in #66 shows face angle at max impact( check ball deformation, string bed deflection), and represents the actual face angle of 8 deg, pic 1 shows face angle immediatly after the ball has left the string bed, so green line in pic #1 equals 1rst red line in pic #2.
As for 'contact phase', my definition is first touch through ball losing contact with string bed, and that time period as mentioned spans about 4 -5ms.

 

[TennisCJC]

Few degrees (typically < 10°) closed at contact usually ok. Mileage may vary -- depending on situation or intent. Racket face might be a bit more closed on rising balls, especially on a high contact point. Perhaps, closer to vertical on a falling ball (esp low contact?).

The tennis speed blog has stop action photos of Federer, Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, Del Potro and many others and you are correct. The pros typically have the racket between 5 and 15 degrees closed on a topspin forehand. It is a fool's errand to try to close it more. I don't even think about closing the face but it probably is very slightly closed. It is more a function of grip and swing path than conscious thought.

 

[FiReFTW]

It is more a function of grip and swing path than conscious thought.

More of a function of what shot they hit and where they aim.
Thats how they learned to hit different swingpaths and angles and all, not by thinking about tilting the racquet.

Take a short sitter ball that jumps slightly above net level, alot of times the pros will hit such a ball on a very straight swingpath from behind and through the ball, but the ball will immedietly start a downward trajectory and have nice spin, because the racquet is so much more closed even tho they hit straight through.

Another example is hitting extremely sharp angles close to the net, again they have to have a more closed racquet and really spin the ball short, skim the ball almost.

But they learned this by small adjustments based on feel in order to hit these certain shots, ball going too long..try to get on top of it more and spin it more.. its really all about feel, you just learn to spin or more or add more penetration or more arc by small adjustments of swingpaths in all planes aswell as different grip tensions and targeting different parts of the ball and different timing and other micro adjustments, but they are automatic you just execute them in order to do with the ball what u want and hit it where u want from hitting that shot thousands of times.
You execute it automaticaly from muscle memory.

Its the same on the serve.
A difference between down the T and wide is 3 degrees, do you really think a human can tilt and adjust the racquet by such small differences in such high speeds that its traveling at? You dont adjust nothing, you just execute from hitting it thousand of times, from muscle memory.

Thats why these closed racquet pics of pros are all cool and dandy, but they are not helping someone become a better tennis player.

 

[Chas Tennis]

@Chas Tennis


Yes, pretty sure that contact point is low in the stringbed (below center) in that image. Not sure what you mean by "mid-point/max impact during contact phase". How are we defining contact phase here? Contact time (4ms) plus some amount of time before and after contact, I assume. Anyway, in reading the link posted by Chas in post #66, the first red line in this instance represents the racket face orientation 4.8ms after contact. The green line is, indeed, contact. And last yellow line prior to the green line is 4.8ms prior to contact.

First contact is the first touch of the racket strings on the ball, an instant of time. But actually observing this is difficult because of the way video cameras work.

The time that a video camera captures a frame is not timed with ball impact, timing is completely random. In one video clip the racket might be caught 1" away from the ball. Or 7", 3", 1/2", etc. Completely random. Each video captures the racket face at a different time and distance before first contact.

To answer how closed the racket is at first contact, I use the frame of high speed video just before impact is seen. That way the complications during impact are avoided and the angle of the racket face being used by tennis players can be observed. For forehands it might be 5-10 d.

Tennisspeed showed us an excellent way to observe and display how closed the racket face is at impact. Copy it until something better is available. Note that Tennisspeed aligned the camera looking at the racket & impact from a certain camera angle.

Regarding the red lines - Tennisspeed normally uses yellow lines before impact, one green line after/during impact impact, and red lines after impact. When the angle scale was added it also used red lines.

 

[Pete Player]

I find it a sort of chimera, that the degree of closing is compared to vertical, yet the ”spin loft” is dynamic and what effects in contact is relative to the ball trajectory.

If you hit it on the rise, slightly ”closed” is actually quite a lot open to the tangent of ball flight.


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[Taita87]

Well... Today I tried a textreme tour 100p... 18x20
And all the problems were gone. I finally placed the ball where I wanted without the fear of going long, wide and finally fell the ball.

Of course the balls were more penetrating but with less spin and heaviness compared to the tc95 16x19.. maybe a half way in between could be three right choice

 

[Curiosity]

My two cents: Rod Cross. in Technical Tennis, Chapter 4, gives an excellent detailed discussion of spin, incident angle, closing of the racquet face, etc. Elliot, Reid, and Crespo's "ITF Technique Development in Tennis Stroke Production," Chapter 6, Forehand Mechanics fleshes out the details attractively.

It seems to me that to gain control of racquet tilt into contact, it helps to have a well-settled grip and ESR extent at launch, the beginning of forward racquet motion. Reducing randomness helps, no? Beyond that topspin can be increased three ways, by swinging faster (other things being equal), by increasing the steepness of the approach path, and by increasing forward tilt just into the hit via application of ISR (which typically increases both forward tilt, velocity upward in the plane of the stringbed, and racquet head velocity). Cross gives a good example analysis of Federer's forehand approach angle (typically about 31º for a ball above waist height, and forward tilt of about 8º....all based, of course, on a very fast basic swing speed.

I have to laugh when comments get made such as "pros don't know about or care about ISR." It is utterly untrue. They know the technical basics. They don't think about ESR because almost all of them had that built into their swing as juniors. Assuredly Fed did. They have a very grooved reliable forehand grip, which of course they can vary in emergencies. They don't hold forward tilt from the beginning, as you can see in 500 fr/sec video. The trend has definitely been to hit less steeply, but apply much more forceful ISR into contact. When you see Rafa's racquet approach the ball (at two feet out) as if it's going to contact the ball high on the frame, yet an instant later see contact is often made a bit low on the frame, you are seeing forceful ISR in action. The same for Fed and many other players.

More that these factors and techniques involves momentary adjustments to allow the usual technique to work. JMO.

 

[TennisPinkBabe]

increasing forward tilt just into the hit via application of ISR (which typically increases both forward tilt, velocity upward in the plane of the stringbed, and racquet head velocity).

When the arm is out in front of the body at contact, how can ISR simultaneously increase velocity in the plane of the string bed (i.e. windshield wiper) AND increase forward tilt?

 

[Curiosity]

When the arm is out in front of the body at contact, how can ISR simultaneously increase velocity in the plane of the string bed (i.e. windshield wiper) AND increase forward tilt?

You left out "and increase racquet head velocity." laugh. It is built into the biomechanics. (And don't take my word for it. Get the ITF references on the forehand...) Assuming you have rotated to within 15º of facing the court, and that you've held ESR through the swing. Further assume (to make it simple to observe) that you're hitting with a straight or nearly straight arm, and that your wrist is still loose and lagging: Place your racquet face against a smooth wall or have someone hold it lightly. As you "do ISR," rotating your upper hitting arm in the shoulder socket, you'll find it is nearly impossible to avoid having the racquet face rise and tilt forward. It will also pivot a bit at the handle, causing the racquet head to accelerate. You really do get all three in varying amounts.

Once, in a swing, your arm is well in front, wrist back, shoulder extended into contact, the muscles that power the ISR rotation are diverse rotatator cuff muscles but mainly the lats ( a group of six muscles, actually, covering a large part of your back. Have someone hold your extended-and-well-in-front arm/hand. Try to rotate the upper arm, moving neither left nor right. You should feel your lats on your hitting side light up. (Extending the shoulder out toward contact is a key part of this, which is why it is widely recommended.

A tougher task would be to try applying fast intense ISR WITHOUT getting some of all three motions. The ISR is routinely used to generate upward motion in the plain of the stringbed AND forward tilt by most good pros. As for the velocity addition, the ITF credits it with a brief increase of 30-40%. It is obviously essential that the ISR be activated just into contact, not earlier. Your grip will affect how much of each effect you get. The follow-through will emphsize both the rise (so-called windshield wiper) but mainly (a la Fed) the forward tilt. Well, there it is. Try the experiment to get the feel of the three?

 

[Taita87]

Thank you. Anyway as said, playing with the 18/20 the textreme tour 100p fell like coming home from a long period.

 

[dgold44]

Hi, do you have any tip it advice to help me close the racquet face at impact? When I impact it's almost perpendicular to the ground..
Sometimes if I try without the ball I can succeed in that, but when I'm training with ball I return to the perpendicular face.

Your grip must be too extreme
Look at federer.. It's almost 45 degrees closed.. And I have the same grip and similar launch angle racquet

 

[dgold44]

Change your grip

 

[user92626]

I have the original version, and I can freeze the impact frames...
This is mine

Hey you and I are sharing one problem but I'm fixing mine and seeing good progress.

That is, your back swing is very compact / small and therefore is not reaching its potential power. Another thing is you drop your racket too early.

On the size of the back swing, pay attention to pros, especially Djokovic for easy observation, they extend their swing arm all the way out, like the arm is lining up with their body plane.