Can't understand how Murray can win points against Djokovic from the baseline?

[tennis_hack]

Djokovic has a better forehand and backhand than Murray, and both of his groundstrokes are better in attack and defense than Murray's. If Djokovic wants to finish the point early from the baseline - he can simply hit a winner right through Murray. If he wants to be defensive, he can simply sit back, use his superior defense, movement and groundstroke reliability, and wait for Murray to make a mistake.

In other words, he can beat Murray by going on the attack, and he can beat Murray by out-grinding him. In theory there is simply nothing Murray can do to win points from the baseline.

Murray's slice is better, yes, but I can't see how that matters when Djokovic will just time and time again hit a strong shot off Murray's slice, forcing Murray to go on the defensive immediately.

Can someone help me understand how Murray can win points against Djokovic from the baseline?

 

[West Coast Ace]

All your points/observations are valid...

Someone wasn't in the mood to grind today.

 

[roberttennis54]

It starts off with Murray being a better returner. So Murray gets more free points and makes Djokovic play on a higher percentage of his service games. This puts more pressure on Djokovic to hit a winner.

Then the difference between their topspin backhands is minimal. Overall Murray has the better backhand due to his slice, so that is one advantage.

Then on grass Murray moves much better and has better passing shots. Murray can come to the net to finish points when he is dominating whilst Djokovic cannot.

That is just part of the reason. Murray is then pretty good at hitting forehands on the run. If Djokovic decides to grind, the pressure from Murray returning better gets to him.

 

[syc23]

Well understand this: Murray played the bigger points better than Djokovic today.

Andy Murray, Wimbledon Gentlemens Champion 2013

 

[Peters]

Simple answer is you're undervaluing Murray's overall baseline abilities. He's incredibly hard to put away in a rally.

Sure, Novak has more hard-hitting ability than Andy, but against Murray hard-hitting doesn't always mean the same as hard-hitting against other top players.

An identical shot that's a winner against Del Potro may be 'just another rally ball' against someone like Murray. And this obviously adds more pressure on Novak, since he has to hit the lines to get an outright winner.

Shot difficulty goes up = UE count goes up.

Plus, as he showed today, Andy has all the passing shots in the book himself and when he's on form can hit plenty of winners if he wants to.

 

[bjsnider]

Simple answer is you're undervaluing Murray's overall baseline abilities. He's incredibly hard to put away in a rally.

Sure, Novak has more hard-hitting ability than Andy, but against Murray hard-hitting doesn't always mean the same as hard-hitting against other top players.

An identical shot that's a winner against Del Potro may be 'just another rally ball' against someone like Murray. And this obviously adds more pressure on Novak, since he has to hit the lines to get an outright winner.

Shot difficulty goes up = UE count goes up.

Plus, as he showed today, Andy has all the passing shots in the book himself and when he's on form can hit plenty of winners if he wants to.

Agreed. Murray is one of the fastest players, perhaps the fastest player in history. He is nearly impossible to outrally. His backhand is more consistent than Djokovic. He can blast a hard fearhand too. His ability to hit every shot in tennis has always given Djokovic trouble. The two of them always play long, difficult matches. Murray has been winning more of the biggest ones recently. It's a really big matchup problem for Djoker, but really, Murray needs to look past that and towards gaining ground on clay. Continuing to pound on Djokovic is missing the bigger picture.

 

[terribleIVAN]

Novak's shots are capricious; against some type of players, his groundstrokes are razor fast and flat; against others, he struggles to find his lenght and height.

Murray's game and balls don't seem to subject themselves to Novak's best capacities.

Just shows that technically, Novak is nowhere close to the greats of yesterday like Sampras, Agassi, Lendl, Becker, Mc Enroe, who seldom missed when they were on the ball early.

 

[tennis_pro]

Well understand this: Murray played the bigger points better than Djokovic today.

Andy Murray, Wimbledon Gentlemens Champion 2013

Man, you're on a roll today. Why don't you go even further - edit your avatar, signature etc..

 

[pjonesy]

Simple answer is you're undervaluing Murray's overall baseline abilities. He's incredibly hard to put away in a rally.

Sure, Novak has more hard-hitting ability than Andy, but against Murray hard-hitting doesn't always mean the same as hard-hitting against other top players.

An identical shot that's a winner against Del Potro may be 'just another rally ball' against someone like Murray. And this obviously adds more pressure on Novak, since he has to hit the lines to get an outright winner.

Shot difficulty goes up = UE count goes up.

Plus, as he showed today, Andy has all the passing shots in the book himself and when he's on form can hit plenty of winners if he wants to.

What you have in Djokovic, is a player that covers the ball perfectly. His rally shots are a perfect blend of depth, spin and pace. If he catches the ball in his strike zone, he will rarely miss. He has close to a perfect margin for error on his groundstrokes. That allows him to hit close to the baseline with about 80% of his pace, over and over. Djokovic also can hit better angles than Murray and pull opponents further off the court, with less effort.

In Murray, you have the closest to an old school flat ball striker. Deliberate and uncomplicated strokes that are relatively flat. More like a Jimmy Connors type of ball(not that extreme), with spin when he needs it. He proved that if he took the ball early enough, hit down the middle of the court and kept the ball low, he could win ENOUGH rallies. Murray played within himself, served great, made shots when he needed to and really didn't back off of the baseline. Bottom line, Murray did not make it easy for Novak to hit his shots.

 

[big ted]

i think djokovic plays w more power, but murray plays with more variety in his baseline game

 

[Egoista]

Andy Murray - the Ultimate Pusher....

An inspiration to all pushers out there....
who now will be inspired to push even more
push , push , push all the way
I see a bad future for tennis ......

its gonna be the attack of the pushers after this.....


Still got to keep some perspective....at the age of 26 the guy still only has 2 Grand slams....Novak 6 neither will ever be able to catch rafa or fed although novak might come close to rafa

 

[hawk eye]

Ehh, Djokovic should just play topspin putaways that bounce over Murray's head. Then, Murray wouldn't have stand a chance.

 

[norbac]

Oh, is that why he's lost to Murray eight times? Thing is the margins are very marginal between these two and Murray's movement on grass is just a bit better than Novak's. Murray's movement to the forehand really impressed me today.

 

[Netspirit]

Murray has more variety, a much better slice, and is a better player tactically. He kept Djokovic guessing and out of balance.

He is a smarter player, and grass rewards smarts.

 

[Kilco]

Oh, is that why he's lost to Murray eight times? Thing is the margins are very marginal between these two and Murray's movement on grass is just a bit better than Novak's. Murray's movement to the forehand really impressed me today.

Those gets we he hits like a continental forehand shove and it lands deep in Novaks court are just insane, infact his forehand cross was amazing today.

My fave point was when Murray was outside the court and hammered a cc forehand and DJok slipped, as it landed dead on the line!

 

[TennisCJC]

I think your assessment that Djoko can "simply" out offense and out defense Murray is too simplistic.

Murray plays very good rope-a-dope tennis where he makes outstanding gets into the corners and works to be just offensive enough where you cannot blast him off the court. Murray is still a bit too defensive for me but he did play very well today. He went deep into the corners to extend rallies time and again today and I think this eventually brought enough mental pressure that Djoko cracked. It also hurt Djoko that he played almost 5 hours against Del Po in the semis. Image playing someone like Murray when your legs are tired. If Djoko had taken Del Po out in 4 sets, I think it could have been a different story today.

 

[tennis_hack]

Murray has more variety, a much better slice, and is a better player tactically. He kept Djokovic guessing and out of balance.

He is a smarter player, and grass rewards smarts.

I saw Murray being put on the defensive almost every time after he used the slice. Djokovic had time to set up a forehand to blast into a corner to get Murray running.

At the very most Murray could hope to stay in a neutral rally after slicing.

I really don't understand why you'd slice against Djokovic - he's more than capable of dealing with it - and there goes Murray's 'variety'.

 

[Peters]

Yes, but even if Novak is better than most at dealing with it, Andy still has to play it often and mix it up. He can't just retire one of his shots like that, otherwise he becomes predictable.

Which would result in Novak getting into a rhythm against him. Andy's probably the best player in the world at messing up opponent's rhythm..

 

[thesokin]

Djokovic has a better forehand and backhand than Murray, and both of his groundstrokes are better in attack and defense than Murray's. If Djokovic wants to finish the point early from the baseline - he can simply hit a winner right through Murray. If he wants to be defensive, he can simply sit back, use his superior defense, movement and groundstroke reliability, and wait for Murray to make a mistake.

In other words, he can beat Murray by going on the attack, and he can beat Murray by out-grinding him. In theory there is simply nothing Murray can do to win points from the baseline.

Murray's slice is better, yes, but I can't see how that matters when Djokovic will just time and time again hit a strong shot off Murray's slice, forcing Murray to go on the defensive immediately.

Can someone help me understand how Murray can win points against Djokovic from the baseline?

This is what you think! I's not a true fact...

@Peters and bjsnider, well said.

@Egoista, your username speaks for itself...

 

[qwertre]

I saw Murray being put on the defensive almost every time after he used the slice. Djokovic had time to set up a forehand to blast into a corner to get Murray running.

At the very most Murray could hope to stay in a neutral rally after slicing.

I really don't understand why you'd slice against Djokovic - he's more than capable of dealing with it - and there goes Murray's 'variety'.

I think you misunderstood the match today. Murray really didn't use his slice often, and when he did, he was often on the defensive already. What Murray's slice does is reset the point more often than not. In that regard, it is better than Djokovic's.

 

[nethawkwenatchee]

Well understand this: Murray played the bigger points better than Djokovic today.

Andy Murray, Wimbledon Gentlemens Champion 2013

Spot On! It's amazing, the amount of disrespect for Andy and his accomplishments on these boards. Andy had 72% 1st serve points won + 9 aces + 26 net points + 48% recieving points won + 36 winners. Andy out played and outlasted Novak and he's the only one on the planet that did it TODAY!

 

[ForLoveOfTheGame]

Andy Murray - the Ultimate Pusher....

An inspiration to all pushers out there....
who now will be inspired to push even more
push , push , push all the way
I see a bad future for tennis ......

its gonna be the attack of the pushers after this.....


Still got to keep some perspective....at the age of 26 the guy still only has 2 Grand slams....Novak 6 neither will ever be able to catch rafa or fed although novak might come close to rafa

I cannot stop laughing from this. So sad that it's true.

 

[90's Clay]

Murray can certainly capitalize if Nole is fatigued, (which he no doubt was today).

 

[JSummers]

...If Djokovic wants to finish the point early from the baseline - he can simply hit a winner right through Murray.

This hasn't been the case.
How Murray beat Djokovic:
1) Hit more variety of top/back spin, flat, loopy shots. Gave Djokovic nothing routine to hit. Really, Murray simply had more variety than Djokovic.
2) Retrieved everything and made Djokovic play one more ball. Haven't we seen enough mishit overheads, attempted backend DTL winners?
3) Hit everything very deep. I've noticed throughout the match Murray's balls were deeper on average.

 

[struggle]

first off, congrats to Andy. well deserved.

BUT, the only person to beat Nole was himself, Andy just played well enough to capitalize IMO.

 

[user92626]

Give Andy CREDITS, guys.

He played incredible games this time around. A few things that only the blind couldn't see:

He's incredibly consistent and accurate with xcourt shots.
His shot selection was very smart and completely unpredictable. I was surprised that he could make some of the shots that Nole just stood there.
He was incredibly fast and focus. The last few games were pretty much decided by his ability to run up and put the ball away. He was Nadal yesterday.

Nole plays a wild brand of tennis. Either it works incredibly well which it did against Fed in that US Open semi and almost did this time against Andy or it falters fast possibly due to his fatigue or rhythm.

 

[kalyan4fedever]

Be prepared for the pusher generation to roll on over when fedal era complete #Sad reality...

 

[tennisMVP]

Djokovic has a better forehand and backhand than Murray, and both of his groundstrokes are better in attack and defense than Murray's. If Djokovic wants to finish the point early from the baseline - he can simply hit a winner right through Murray. If he wants to be defensive, he can simply sit back, use his superior defense, movement and groundstroke reliability, and wait for Murray to make a mistake.

In other words, he can beat Murray by going on the attack, and he can beat Murray by out-grinding him. In theory there is simply nothing Murray can do to win points from the baseline.

Murray's slice is better, yes, but I can't see how that matters when Djokovic will just time and time again hit a strong shot off Murray's slice, forcing Murray to go on the defensive immediately.

Can someone help me understand how Murray can win points against Djokovic from the baseline?

Djokovic is a wuss. Murray goes for his shots. That's the difference now.