Carlitos has completely lost his way

citybert

Hall of Fame
I don't understand the decision to play a clay tournament after the AO/before Indian Wells/Miami.
Sorry late to the post but wasnt this for the 3MM appearance fee where he was just going to lose anyway? kinda like Rafa at Halle or any of the other 250s
 

Vincent-C

Hall of Fame
GG0ogv7XMAASOWg


You guys think this doesn´t hurt??
"Ooohh, it's So Big!"
 
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Vincent-C

Hall of Fame
He is cut from the same cloth all spaniards are cut from. If the competition catches up, I FEAR he turns into another Nadal, being only great at clay.
NO point playing these SA clay titles, seems like lacking confidence to face real competition.
I don't think Alrakaz can be great on clay, though he could be good. Ferrer-level (and that would be honorable, if achieved!), maybe.

We'll see how it goes.
 

Sipho

Rookie
How much did you think it hurt? Do tell.
On a scale of 1 to 10? I would say about a 6.5.

I think it was a business decision.

"Indian Wells is coming up. I got a thousand points to defend. I'm not going to kill myself down here in Rio. I can probably beat this guy in three if it has to go that far, then I have a day off... but nah, that's good."

It seemed more disappointment than hurt to me. He knows he would win the match, but it's Rio, so...

And no slight to Alcaraz, it's what I would do too.

And I of course can be totally wrong about all of this, but oh well...


And watching this clip I didn't even think about the Netflix exo. Obviously he was, because I'm sure he's getting some serious money for that. But yeah, no slight to Alcaraz, it's the smart thing to do.
 

AM75

Hall of Fame
Carlito needs to send Ferrero out of the court and try to play by instinct, try to build a strategy himself…
He looks lost at times, relying on his couch for even smallest decisions…
I say it from the beginning, he can‘t play when JCF is not around. They are like Trilby and Svengali.
 

tennis24x7

Professional
The Big 3 have really spoiled people.
He's 20 and has won 2 Slams, development usually isn't linear. No doubt that he's fallen on rough times but he's still a young guy that relies heavily on pure talent but still has a lot of immature aspects of his game that need refinement in terms of constructing points and knowing when to pace himself, not going all out all the time plus he really needs to improve that serve to get him some free points. Part of this is immaturity and part of it is coaching I'm sure.

The bottom line is....patience. He'll be fine but I do think he needs to tweak his game to consistently compete for slams because the book is out on him. Whether it comes from the coaches or from within himself, he needs to change some things. All the greats find a way to constantly get better, can Carlos? TBD but I'm certainly not writing the obituary on his career like some others foolishly are.
This post hits the nail on the head. If the big 3 were playing now, people would have said same about Djokovic or even Federer.
 

FeroBango

Hall of Fame
I say it from the beginning, he can‘t play when JCF is not around. They are like Trilby and Svengali.
From the beginning you're wrong then. Half of his twelve titles have been without Ferrero in the same country as he. These are the facts.

Sure it would help if your main coach is around as not everyone is peak Fedr, but the coach didn't help much last week from what I could see.
 
A

ALCARAZWON

Guest
Carlos is still WAY ahead of Djokovic.
Djokovic was age 23 and 8 months, when he won his 2nd Slam title.
And there's no reason for Carlos to be winning now anyway, as this is Nadal's year.
 

Apun94

Hall of Fame
I don't think Alrakaz can be great on clay, though he could be good. Ferrer-level (and that would be honorable, if achieved!), maybe.

We'll see how it goes.
I know these are knee-jerk reactions but saying Alcaraz is barely going to achieve Ferrer level success on clay is ridiculous. No shade to Ferrer who could go toe-to-toe with the Big3 in their prime, but Alcaraz has already achieved ferrer-like success on clay. On top of my head, Alc has already won 2 masters on clay already, and will comfortably win 5-6 more at the very least, not to mention RG atleast once. Ferrer hasnt come close to all this. And yes Ferru played in the Nadal era, but regardless, Alcaraz will win a lot more than ferrer on clay
 

FeroBango

Hall of Fame
I know these are knee-jerk reactions but saying Alcaraz is barely going to achieve Ferrer level success on clay is ridiculous. No shade to Ferrer who could go toe-to-toe with the Big3 in their prime, but Alcaraz has already achieved ferrer-like success on clay. On top of my head, Alc has already won 2 masters on clay already, and will comfortably win 5-6 more at the very least, not to mention RG atleast once. Ferrer hasnt come close to all this. And yes Ferru played in the Nadal era, but regardless, Alcaraz will win a lot more than ferrer on clay
You should know to ignore compulsive trolls.

A sleuth of posters here are guaranteed to look silly when Carlos looks back at the multiple RGs he's destined to win in the next 15 years of his life.
 

austintennis2005

Professional
This is an oversimplification and very surface level way of looking at things. Yes, they both have 2 schlems, but if you look at how they performed in those 2 title runs the difference in level shown is palpable.

Now at the risk of sounding like a “hater” when really all I’m doing is showcasing the obvious difference between the two let’s begin. In the USO 22 Tiny Carl was pushed to 5 sets by a washed up Chili, a choking Sinner who had more DFs than aces, and Tiafoe who only got 50% 1st serves in play while hitting 75 mph 2nd serves. He then played Casper the friendly MUG in the F who’s never won anything over a 250 with 9/10 titles coming on clay. Whereas RAFA beat peak Fed at RG (who just won Hamburg in dominant fashion) and then beat a doping Puerta in the F.

Now Tiny Carl’s 2nd schlem title was definitely more impressive than his first. But even then it falls short of RAFA’s 2nd RG. Tiny Carl beat Berrettini who had been struggling with form and injuries for a year and a half. Coming into Wimby 23 he was 11-10 for the year. Then he played Rune in his 2nd ever Wimby appearance (he went out in the 1R the year before) in the QF. In the SF he faced Med who can only play at an elite level on HC (he was also pushed to 5 by Eubanks playing in his 1st ever Wimby). Then he beat a 36 year old Joker who played like crap for half of the match.

Compare that to RAFA’s 2nd RG run where he played peak Fed again who had just pushed him to 5 sets in Rome in one of the best CC matches of all time.

Here’s the breakdown outside of their 2 GS titles:

Additional GS Fs:
RAFA: 1 (lost to peak Fed at Wimby) Tiny Carl: 0

MS1000 titles:
RAFA: 7 Tiny Carl: 4

500 titles:
RAFA: 5 Tiny Carl: 4

250 titles:
RAFA: 4 Tiny Carl: 2

Total titles:
RAFA: 18 Tiny Carl: 12

That’s not even mentioning RAFA’s 81 CC match win streak. So yeah, he was on a different level and the comparisons are ridiculous.
Is English your native language? “Ridiculous” would be saying something like comparing a 4.5 rec player to Nadal is “ridiculous” without going into all the nonsense you listed. They are very comparable.
Nadal defeated the Journeyman Puerta to win his first and Gaudio had won the year before so there was a huge vacuum on clay that he exploited.
Carlos also got to an additional final at the French where he was the favorite over the goat. He beat the goat on grass and halted his huge run at Wimbledon. Now he also has a slam on hard court. This is easily more impressive than nadal taking advantage of a vacuum on clay.
Go get a dictionary and read up on what the word Ridiculous means
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
Is English your native language? “Ridiculous” would be saying something like comparing a 4.5 rec player to Nadal is “ridiculous” without going into all the nonsense you listed. They are very comparable.
Nadal defeated the Journeyman Puerta to win his first and Gaudio had won the year before so there was a huge vacuum on clay that he exploited.
Carlos also got to an additional final at the French where he was the favorite over the goat. He beat the goat on grass and halted his huge run at Wimbledon. Now he also has a slam on hard court. This is easily more impressive than nadal taking advantage of a vacuum on clay.
Go get a dictionary and read up on what the word Ridiculous means
Are you being deliberately obtuse? This is one of the dumbest rebuttals I’ve seen in a while. Puerta wasn’t just any old journeyman considering he was juiced to the gills and gave RAFA arguably his toughest match in any RG F. And I love how you deliberately omitted having to go through peak Fed who had just won Hamburg in dominant fashion. That’s a lot more impressive than barely scraping by an old Chili, choking Sinner, and crap serving Tiafoe. Then the cherry on top is playing a CC specialist who’s never won anything above a 250 in the F. Lol at exploiting a huge clay vacuum. It’s usually Sampras fans who make this weak sauce claim to cope for their guy being unable to win a single RG. The fact is RAFA won 14 RGs in an era where everyone plays from the baseline with heavy topspin while growing up on clay. He would have handled anyone in the 90’s or early 00’s.

Tiny Carl hasn’t even reached an RG F what are you even talking about? Have you even been following tennis? In 2022 he lost to Zedrot in the QF (becoming his 1st ever top 10 win at a schlem). And last year he lost to Oldovic after he cramped up after barely playing more than 2 sets. And who cares if Joker is the GOAT if he doesn’t play like it? Joker has been getting by playing mediocre tennis for years now. The days of him playing GOAT tennis have been over for a while. It’s just the field has been so bad no one has been able to take advantage of it until recently. Sinner just beat the same “GOAT Novak” in the AO this year :rolleyes:
 

Eureka

Professional
On a scale of 1 to 10? I would say about a 6.5.

I think it was a business decision.

"Indian Wells is coming up. I got a thousand points to defend. I'm not going to kill myself down here in Rio. I can probably beat this guy in three if it has to go that far, then I have a day off... but nah, that's good."

It seemed more disappointment than hurt to me. He knows he would win the match, but it's Rio, so...

And no slight to Alcaraz, it's what I would do too.

And I of course can be totally wrong about all of this, but oh well...

.....And watching this clip I didn't even think about the Netflix exo. Obviously he was, because I'm sure he's getting some serious money for that. But yeah, no slight to Alcaraz, it's the smart thing to do.

Thanks for.your reply Sipho. I ackowledge your take on the matter, but disagree it. Carlos could not have continued to play on in my view.

I know these are knee-jerk reactions but saying Alcaraz is barely going to achieve Ferrer level success on clay is ridiculous. No shade to Ferrer who could go toe-to-toe with the Big3 in their prime, but Alcaraz has already achieved ferrer-like success on clay. On top of my head, Alc has already won 2 masters on clay already, and will comfortably win 5-6 more at the very least, not to mention RG atleast once. Ferrer hasnt come close to all this. And yes Ferru played in the Nadal era, but regardless, Alcaraz will win a lot more than ferrer on clay

David Ferrer was a hardworking /committed player who often gave his best in a match and deserves respect for that. I agree though that Carlos is likely to achieve a more successful career.

From the beginning you're wrong then. Half of his twelve titles have been without Ferrero in the same country as he. These are the facts.

Sure it would help if your main coach is around as not everyone is peak Fedr, but the coach didn't help much last week from what I could see.

Ah. The Maestro, Roger. Just another example of his superb prowess. As for mere mortals, a good coach can be of benefit, especially for younger players. Apparently Carlos and JCF have a deep relationship that is important to Carlos, but I do not consider Carlos' current hiatus to relate to coaching, rather to his inability to play his game.

Hey man, but dont let the truth get in the way of a provocative post
Or even in the way of an obtuse one! Loool! The facts should be banned!
 
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NYTennisfan

Hall of Fame
I know these are knee-jerk reactions but saying Alcaraz is barely going to achieve Ferrer level success on clay is ridiculous. No shade to Ferrer who could go toe-to-toe with the Big3 in their prime, but Alcaraz has already achieved ferrer-like success on clay. On top of my head, Alc has already won 2 masters on clay already, and will comfortably win 5-6 more at the very least, not to mention RG atleast once. Ferrer hasnt come close to all this. And yes Ferru played in the Nadal era, but regardless, Alcaraz will win a lot more than ferrer on clay
He won a Masters beating both Djokovic and Nadal and this is when he was a pup in 2022. Not that Ferrer was a slouch but Carlos has already achieved what Ferrer has in his entire career pretty much on clay. I guess if one believes that he has already peaked at 20 like some of the nonsense we read on this forum then I guess, yeah, he'll never achieve more than Ferrer on clay.
 

austintennis2005

Professional
Are you being deliberately obtuse? This is one of the dumbest rebuttals I’ve seen in a while. Puerta wasn’t just any old journeyman considering he was juiced to the gills and gave RAFA arguably his toughest match in any RG F. And I love how you deliberately omitted having to go through peak Fed who had just won Hamburg in dominant fashion. That’s a lot more impressive than barely scraping by an old Chili, choking Sinner, and crap serving Tiafoe. Then the cherry on top is playing a CC specialist who’s never won anything above a 250 in the F. Lol at exploiting a huge clay vacuum. It’s usually Sampras fans who make this weak sauce claim to cope for their guy being unable to win a single RG. The fact is RAFA won 14 RGs in an era where everyone plays from the baseline with heavy topspin while growing up on clay. He would have handled anyone in the 90’s or early 00’s.

Tiny Carl hasn’t even reached an RG F what are you even talking about? Have you even been following tennis? In 2022 he lost to Zedrot in the QF (becoming his 1st ever top 10 win at a schlem). And last year he lost to Oldovic after he cramped up after barely playing more than 2 sets. And who cares if Joker is the GOAT if he doesn’t play like it? Joker has been getting by playing mediocre tennis for years now. The days of him playing GOAT tennis have been over for a while. It’s just the field has been so bad no one has been able to take advantage of it until recently. Sinner just beat the same “GOAT Novak” in the AO this year :rolleyes:
I’m obtuse and you are comparing a first grand slam win over puerta to being ridiculously and another level than Carlos beating Novak at Wimbledon?
 

NYTennisfan

Hall of Fame
Considering that you’re intentionally leaving out a ton of details that show a stark contrast between the competition they faced I’m gonna go ahead and say yeah. Let’s just ignore RAFA having to go through peak Fed in the SF and a confirmed doper in Puerta in the F, and act like that’s the same thing as beating an Oldovic who physically collapsed mid match :rolleyes: You’re not even doing an apples to apples comparison. For Tiny Car’s 1st GS title he beat Casper the friendly MUG.

And again, RAFA had an additional GS F where he lost to peak Fed (who would have crushed either of last year’s Wimby finalists in straight sets). And you made up Tiny Carl making an RG F. Lastly RAFA had almost double the MS1000 titles, 6 more titles overall against a much better field, and the longest winning streak on any surface for a man.
I don't disagree that Nadal was ahead of Alcaraz at the same age which is pretty indisputable really but what's with this ridiculous hyperbole talking about "physically collapsed" Oldovic to diminish Alcaraz's accomplishment beating a largely in form Djokovic in a Wimbledon final. "Physically collapsed" is what happened to Alcaraz at the 2023 FO. You're already right without having to drum up narrative is to support your point.
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
I don't disagree that Nadal was ahead of Alcaraz at the same age which is pretty indisputable really but what's with this ridiculous hyperbole talking about "physically collapsed" Oldovic to diminish Alcaraz's accomplishment beating a largely in form Djokovic in a Wimbledon final. "Physically collapsed" is what happened to Alcaraz at the 2023 FO. You're already right without having to drum up narrative is to support your point.
I’m simply adding context to show differences in level needed to win their GS titles. And I’m not going to sugarcoat it. Frankly I’m tired of this forum trying to gaslight me and anyone else who watched the Big 3 in their primes into thinking that this Joker was as good (or better) than he was 10 years ago. I watched a 26 year old Joker raise his arms like he was Rocky after winning a 54 shot rally vs a 27 year old RAFA. And I also watched a 36 year old Joker collapse to the ground after losing a 40 shot rally to the Mad Lad. The difference is like night and day. The Joker I watched in the Wimby F last year looked like a zombie in the 3rd set. He had to take one of his infamous bathroom breaks and tank an entire set just to recharge his batteries. There are varying degrees to physically collapsing in a match. It’s just that Tiny Carl’s in the RG SF was even worse which is something that a same age RAFA never came close to doing. And it’s not like it was a one off thing. He cramped against Sinner in Miami, Joker in the aforementioned RG SF, and against Joker again in Cincy.
 
He’s an artist but obv totally diff from fed. if and when he gets the correct balance as far as shot selection, he’ll be even more difficult to deal with. i was shaking my head at some his decisions today—S & V when down in score into Z’s BH, towing baseline on return wjen Z was in a clear service rhythm and he was down in scrow iirc, his lack of ability to hit traditional volleys (always drop vollies), etc.
 

FeroBango

Hall of Fame
There was one point I think in the 4th set Where Carlos used a one handed bh flick cross court pass, i immediately thought of Federer. :eek: He also produces more winners than his opponents, again like Federer.
Not the first time he's flicked a wicked pass for a winner either. Beautiful player. Just cannot be taught to play that way.
 
Alcaraz is a true wonder of a player but unless he keeps improving technically and tactically, he doesn’t seem to be as durable as Nadal & Djoko were and won’t last past 30 imo. I see him ending up like Thiem from a physical perspective (obv not talking about results) the way he just torques FHs. Ofc he will collect multiple majors until that happens, but he will need to learn to hit traditional vollies, ie. instead of always drop vollies and improve shot selection. Otherwise on hard court I could see Sinner, Zverev maybe, and even Medvedev getting him to lose his way and spray balls.
 

aldeayeah

G.O.A.T.
He’s an artist but obv totally diff from fed. if and when he gets the correct balance as far as shot selection, he’ll be even more difficult to deal with. i was shaking my head at some his decisions today—S & V when down in score into Z’s BH, towing baseline on return wjen Z was in a clear service rhythm and he was down in scrow iirc, his lack of ability to hit traditional volleys (always drop vollies), etc.
He hits a lot of deep volleys (more than Nadal or young Djokovic did), just not on clay.
 
Well, he needed to use those deeper ones on some occasions today and he hit droppers that Zverev got to and easily passed him or won the point in some way. Nadal had the same problem imo
 
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