messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Tennis isnt about one slam. Nadal was the most complete player of his era, but thus far Alcaraz is shading him in that regard just.
Carlos Alcaraz = Big 3?
- Thread starter Boomski
- Start date
gamelovergold
Hall of Fame
Surely you must have typing mistake. Fedrer was far more complete player than Nadal. If you are saying alcaraz has won more age wise compared to nadal. Then yes he has but there is long way to go. Nadal 22 alcaraz 6 .
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Nadal won the Golden double career slam. Federer only won the FO once. Nadal won his career slams when all the big 4 were peak or close to peak. How was Federer more complete? Or are you including indoors and blue clay?
optic yellow
Legend
This was apparent from the first USO win.
TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
Mostly holds up even in a current comparison but if Alcaraz did manage to flip a bunch of these, why would I edit that post?
I was comparing Alcaraz at that point in time to the very best of TB3 (the Open Era GOATs).
If he matched or ends up matching them in this-or-that category afterward, it changes nothing about a comparison between 2024 Carlos Alcaraz and TB3 at their best.
The thread, best I can tell, was composed last year. And I made things really simple, again best I can tell, by saying “as of now” — a fairly clear indicator that I wasn’t closing the book on him.
No earthly idea how I can make this any simpler.
Nice Yogiism.
We can continue this convo, but I really hope you don’t constantly lose track (!!) of what we’re talking about this time:
^Never encountered anything like this in any walk of life, so let’s not have a repeat pls (could really go without holding your hand). Maybe shed the big words until you master the basics of the language. You might want to start by actually paying attention to and comprehending what you’re responding to.
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Jav
Rookie
Let's analyze this.
Still rejecting he has not the worst FH and movement (arguably his biggest assets) out of the 4. RoS too.
"Even if he did manage to flip" so as late as date October 25 you still consider these inferior to any of the Big 3.
Thanks.
Carlos Alcaraz = Big 3?
This is the title. Not Peak Big 3. In the best of cases, innocent non sequitur. In the worst, a blatant bias.
If you couldn't predict Carlitos 25' season at age 22 by his 23-24' seasons or think Carlitos average till 2024 will be representative to his career average when he retires, you're just a prisoner of present time.
If you think he changed these that much and not his serve and BH, you're just a bad analyst.
Oh, sure. Limited to your time era. Such a shame Carlitos was absolutely no one at checks notes as late as September 2024, just a year ago. It was imperative to point out he hadn't matched prime Fedalovic on any category yet.
It's ok. You're free to tone it down a posteriori as much as you want.
I completely comprehend what you're talking about, word by word.
If you recognized your own bias we'd have a more fruitful, honest discussion though.
TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
No, I didn’t say he has the worst return of the four. For the umpteenth time I’ll advise you to go back and actually read what I said. It’s right in front of you.
Forehand I would say is slightly behind Djokovic’s at its best (2011-2015), though I believe it’s getting there. It is the best forehand on tour right now. Not opposed to the idea of it being better than prime Djokovic’s in time, and at this point it’s arguably better than Djokovic’s forehand in an average year.
My point was that even if any of these things changed, it’s not relevant to when I made the comparison. I wasn’t doing a career projection. I was comparing 2024 Alcaraz to Prime TB3.
I started my reply by saying there were glimpses of the TB3 in his game. I then offered a comparison to TB3 in their primes, not as a strict continuation of the OP, but as my own spin on the comparison. A thousand pardons.
I didn’t make any predictions because that wasn’t the point of the post. I have said many times that I believe Alcaraz will keep improving (how much, and whether it’ll be enough, is up for debate).
Immediately pointed out after the US Open that he improved his serve, with the stats finally bearing that out:
It is still behind Djokovic’s and Federer’s though, so not much has changed there. I would now say it is starting to leave Nadal’s in the dust (‘25 USO was an awesome serving tournament), whereas last year I was noncommittal because Ned had several full seasons of comparable or better serving stats…(though, in fairness, many of those came after his physical prime).
But yeah, Raz’s serve placement has genuinely improved. If this is a permanent shift, that’s a scary proposition for the tour!
How can you so blatantly misread a short post you made such a big deal of?
This is cartoonishly wrong. I said his drop shot was the best, and out of the six categories I listed I gave him the return over Nadal, net game over Djokovic and Nadal, backhand over Federer (I said second-worst, and didn’t specify who) and left room on the serve over Nadal.
As I said in the last thread, you are awful at gotchas lol.
Definitely weren’t able to in our last convo. Hence the handful of examples adduced of you verifiably not comprehending things or just forgetting what we were talking about (this might be an endearing thing if you weren’t so stubborn about acknowledging it).
It really is just your reading/language comprehension, man. Try not misquoting, quote-mining, mind-reading, poorly paraphrasing or just outright inventing things.
Most importantly (this is more a character trait than a language failing), when someone shows that you’ve done these things, a straightforward “my bad” will do.
It does indeed look like I still gotta hold your hand through this stuff.
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Jav
Rookie
Didn't imply that. Hence the separation. Maybe should have added "pretty much" or "to an extent" too, considering you rate it still below Fed's.
Not like we didn't make it clear long enough your particular rankings in each of these.
Just to resume your boldest claims (and by present timing* I mean as far as just a year ago, September 24, but arguably present day too according to your last statements):
- You think his FH is* worst of the 4, including Novak's
- His BH erratic and 2nd worst at best (so arguably below Roger's, if you don't really think so don't use at best)
- Same for his serve (arguably below Nadal's, at least until USO25 -thanks god, a bit too late I'd argue since he proved better serving skills in Queens already but anyway-)
- Worst movement of the four with offensive footwork factored in (why would you factor it out or count it as a Carlitos relative liability is really beyond me; probably this is an attempt to elevate Fed higher than him by increasing the importance of that aspect alone, where Carlos himself edges Rafole almost as much, just because you deep down know Roger's nowhere close Carlitos defensive skills; anyway, below Roger's)
- 2nd worst RoS, behind Roger's (most respectable of these, I guess; still plenty debatable)
You give him the drop shots (such generosity), a shot that barely makes for 1% of all points played and much less than a 1% difference on any game.
These are your claims, so that you do not mix things up whether by dates, categories or specific comparisons between any 2.
This you:
I think Alcaraz has had the better forehand since about the end of ‘23
So apparently Carlitos, in probably his most stagnant of the categories you mentioned, has passed from merely lagging behind Novak's FH at age 36 at late as the end of 23' to pass his average a year and a couple months later and getting very close to his prime in 2011-15 in the recent months, all this just because of their early h2h encounters.
Won't even go expose your "top 25 of the OE, but #16 just behind Newcombe, Courier and (arguably) Murray, oops definitely overshot", "oh no I only meant breaks on HC not career's on all surfaces" (clear cherry-picking as if that was more relevant, definitely prior OE Top 5 most dominant runs in USO25' though) and "my favorite current game to watch outside Maroszan" kind of bullsh1t any longer.
Says the guy from above.
If you stop with the condescending language I may stop fact-checking you.
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TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
Still rejecting he has not the worst FH and movement (arguably his biggest assets) out of the 4. RoS too.
Embarrassing. Communicate more effectively. It’s not like I’m asking for a kidney.
Yes, as a pure return/return game, I do think Peak Federer’s was a bit better, and due to his rather blatant coasting it was criminally underrated by RGW %’s:
…but it also dropped off pretty dramatically. So for their careers I do expect Raz to get the nod.
Clarified my stance. Feel free to respond to it instead of resetting the convo.
Federer has the best slice in OE history, which enabled so much of his success on grass and indoors/fast HC, so yeah there was some latitude there.
If you have to wrangle over stuff like this it emphasizes how little you’ve got to work with.
I said “if we’re going by highs” (i.e US Open ‘10 and the like). Nadal’s lefty serve complemented the rest of his game amazingly well at its best, and his serve stats in ‘19 were better than Raz’s in any completed year up to that point. Yes, it was arguable, if only narrowly. I now think Alcaraz has shot past Nadal. All reasonable positions.
These are the best movers in tennis history. It’s not sacrilege to say they’ve got the edge. Yes, Federer’s superior offensive footwork can be invoked here.
I’m just talking about returns at their very, very bests.
Yes, I believe he’s got one over on them and everybody else in drop shots, an important part of Raz’s game.
Also believe his net game is much, much better than Djokovic’s and Nadal’s (did even then). Drive backhand is better than Federer’s. Serve was perhaps a bit better than Nadal’s then, and is very much ascending now. Court coverage (a subset of movement) is up there with Nadal and Djokovic’s. Forehand is up there with Djokovic. Pure return is better than Nadal’s (even peak-for-peak), and for career it’ll likely surpass Fed’s.
Appears to be a pretty healthy amount of things I’m giving him credit for. If you’re upset that I don’t think he’s reached their overall level yet ( when they were at their respective zeniths), I dunno what to tell you man. He hasn’t. Could happen. Hasn’t yet.
Yes, and do you remember why I had to clarify? It’s because you misunderstood my position and appeared to argue that I was saying Djokovic’s forehand is better at present. I wasn’t.
Word this better, then get back to me. Won’t untangle it.
Are you still referring to a passing comment I made, one I admitted was overzealous right after? This was already addressed like a hundred times over:
How many more times would you like it explained to you that I momentarily underrated Alcaraz (in a manner that didn’t even undermine my central point) then instantly revised my opinion?
Not surprising that a dude who can’t even admit a dozen glaring errors is trying to magnify a trivial lapse, but again: I already admitted I overshot, cos I’m not a hard-headed dullard.
Congrats, I placed him a few spots lower than was merited. Enjoy the scraps.
Yeah, you thought a known, vocal Alcaraz fan (@Kralingen) who has been cheering him on for years (in private chats, among other places, mucho dedication to the bit!) was a hater too, so of course you’ll think I’m one.
I like Raz, great guy, great sportsman, fun game, great player. It is fine to think he hasn’t reached prime TB3’s level yet. He’s still rather young, I hear.
You were condescending from the first time you ever replied to me and felt the need to revive a thread for the express purpose of trying (and failing, rather spectacularly) to dunk.
Given all that, I think it’s fair game to mention your communication deficiencies. You can’t go one post without a breakdown.
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Jav
Rookie
We had a conversation months ago. Funny how you talk about resetting the convo yet can't realize the "RoS too" reference wasn't meant as "the worst of the 4" as the others. Otherwise I'd have included it in the first sentence.
Apart from minor ortographical or grammar mistakes I may commit (and I concede I make some of these particularly with prepositions and adverbs, maybe some phrasal verbs too cause I don't check any of these by any program whatsoever), my comments are overall pretty intelligible. It's up to you to check your reading skills and set aside artificial language barriers.
We could continue this in Spanish if you prefer but I guarantee you it would get even more disfunctional.
Yes, as a pure return, I do think Peak Federer’s was a bit better, and due to his rather blatant coasting it was criminally underrated by RGW %’s:
…but it also dropped off pretty dramatically. So for their careers I do expect Raz to get the nod.
That was not the point of my comment there. Just to address I should have said "RoS too, pretty much" or something like that just so you don't focus on false "misunderstanding" nonsense from my part.
In fact what I say here, later:
- 2nd worst RoS, behind Roger's (most respectable of these, I guess; still plenty debatable)
Well, it makes perfect sense semantically, this one I checked. Up to you, buddy.
Oh no no. That's you sticking to the least controversial, more condescending parts of your take.
I'm just stating the most obvious, boldest implications of your statement though. I'll share it again just for the record, please feel free not to tone down, but to debunk any of this, if proven strictly false (otherwise abstain from elaborating further):
- You think his FH is* worst of the 4, including Novak's
- His BH erratic and 2nd worst at best (so arguably below Roger's, if you don't really think so don't use at best)
- Same for his serve (arguably below Nadal's, at least until USO25 -thanks god, a bit too late I'd argue since he proved better serving skills in Queens already but anyway-)
- Worst movement of the four with offensive footwork factored in (why would you factor it out or count it as a Carlitos relative liability is really beyond me; probably this is an attempt to elevate Fed higher than him by increasing the importance of that aspect alone, where Carlos himself edges Rafole almost as much, just because you deep down know Roger's nowhere close Carlitos defensive skills; anyway, below Roger's)
- 2nd worst RoS, behind Roger's (most respectable of these, I guess; still plenty debatable)
Slightly superior*, especially compared to his notably inferior defensive skills.
"Very, very, very, very best. May I add another "very" before realizing this whole comparison may have gotten a bit out of hand?"
Never implied that.
Anyway, it's still a statement of yours, context aside.
It's funny as heck you think Novak's 23 FH was better than Carlitos' then. Hope you get it this time.
More like twice.
Yeah I do. Especially when you think I'm, quote, awful at gotchas lol
Well... gotcha
"Momentarily" is as fun as the FH take I reckon.
Not a dozen. A gazillion.
Anyway, not my bold claims the ones exposed in this thread.
A few may be debatable too, considering #16 (#17 if Murray) even then with 5 majors was already conservative, to say the least.
I can only judge people so far. With him I had no enough background. I still disagree with most of his takes. With you though? I have enough.
I was not. This was our first interaction ever:
Quoting me there:
If that is not a maximalist, condescending claim Idk what is is.
I'm pretty sure my communication skills, language barrier aside are as fine, if not better than any folk here.
You can't go one post without a vain value judgment of yours though.
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TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
I think if you survey some native speakers (I ain’t 1, bless my <3), most will tell you that my interpretation was the obvious one. If you still can’t understand this, I won’t belabour the point.
Language barriers can be bridged if the interlocutor knows their limitations and is willing to discuss things in good faith. This is done all the time here.
You, however, do not and cannot. Hence why I have to correct bald-faced misinterpretations that you never own up to.
Don’t take it too personally. I’ve had to deal with my Slavic family members Confidently Bad English’ing their way to totally unjustified arguments with other people for a long time. My patience for this is greater than it probably should be.
No, I’m acutely aware of my limitations.
That was a subsequent post. You did not make your intentions clear in the post in question. This should be clear to most readers.
Addressed all of these bullet points, so no clue why you’d re-post them. Another utterly pointless convo-resetter.
Yeah, I would say Carlos overtook him in FH potency the following year, maybe a tad earlier.
“You only had to explain it twice (now thrice), not a billion times LOL, Checkmate Liberal!”
Explained my rationale in that thread.
“I was wrong about a well-known Alcaraz fan being an Alcaraz hater, but it isn’t my fault because I didn’t bother doing my due diligence”
Kk thanks for clearing it up.
Uh, LOL:
Skilful omission of what I actually quoted.
It’s not “sectarianism” (your reply) to think they haven’t reached that level, or even that I can’t conceive of it having happened yet. It may very well be that I honestly, sincerely disagree with the contention. Never mind that the person you originally quoted, @BorgTheGOAT , doesn’t actually believe that “no one can touch TB3,” so it’s a non-starter. You wrongly attributed this to him. He was comparing them to Sinner and Alcaraz.
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TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
Alright then, amnesiac:
…..pretty open and shut. I was comparing their forehands peak-for-(so far)-peak. You appealed to the H2H (which took place AFTER Djokovic’s peak had concluded) as a counter to that.
I think their forehands were pretty close in ‘23 and by ‘24 (maybe even latter half of ‘23) Raz surpassed him definitively. But that’s painfully irrelevant to the initial post you linked, where I wasn’t comparing him to 2020’s Novak. You wrongly assumed I was.
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Jav
Rookie
Already established a list of points before. Asked you to point out my mistakes, if there were any. You addressed none.
Since it seems you pretend to pass the buck I’ll share it - again. I’m sure you understood each and every word there:
DO NOT elaborate. Just answer with yes or no. If no, then which changes (fixes) to your original post would you make (for the original September 24’ date though, no improvement excuses as you already made mildly clear, to date, it’s just the serve: “mostly holds up”). In few lines if possible.
F.e.: 1 up in movement over Roger
See? Easy.
So is mine, believe it or not.
But not about your overzealousness - if not exposed.
Don’t tone it down, dude. It keeps getting better.
Friendly reminder you went with the gotchas there, not me. Up to you to refrain using childish slang.
Oh sure. It doesn’t make it more rational.
This was my take btw. Far from the categorical claim you pretend it to be.
And even then it’s evident he’s probably more of a Fed fan first. I’m also a fan of Rafa btw. Just a fan of Carlitos first (not chronologically speaking, but affinity and, why not, expected bias).
You in general need to get out of TTW echo chamber. Trust me, I also read X or r/Tennis, just casually (far from specialized blogs), as well as have real friends I speak to, whose bias towards Rafa in particular is 2nd to none, yet would refrain to make some of the bold claims you guys make here.
Uh, LOL:
Skilful omission of what I actually quoted.
This is what I actually quoted?
Can you elaborate further on this, please? I think it’s you here who lost the plot.
No, sir William Shakespeare, that was NOT my grammar clause, mind you.
Me: “You’re building your logic under the axiom that “nobody touches the Big 3””
You: “Well, yeah”
Should have used: “But they (Sincaraz) do not.” This way you “conceive” that, but reject it.
This is the natural conclusion from your statement, though: “Yeah, we take as an unfalsifiable given that they’re never reaching their level”.
That was the very first interaction of yours.
TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
I’ll leave you with two links:
Learn a language for free
Learn languages by playing a game. It's 100% free, fun, and scientifically proven to work.
www.duolingo.com
-
Toodles.
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TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
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