Carlos Ramos paid 450 bucks

haegger

Semi-Pro
It is scary how they are going after this poor guy. Sure it may have been a pretty harsh penalty but anyone can see how you could argue that the penalties were by the rules. He’s being attacked viciously in the media and by people who don’t watch tennis and didn’t watch the match. The man made $450 for this match and doesn’t have the power structure under him or platform to defend himself. This is extremely worrisome. Hope he is ok.


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What bothers me is there is no statement from ATP or from the Official Board to support him...
 

eelhc

Hall of Fame
Please.... There are bigger issues with the USTA than pay for chair umpires.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/sports/tennis/intersecting-interests-at-the-top-of-us-tennis.html

But... Given enough time, it seems that all sports governing bodies build corrupt and contemptable beuracracies. FIFA, IOC, etc...

I don't see an issue with what Ramos gets paid. He's not getting exploited (well maybe now he will be), it's a career choice he's made and he can quit anytime.

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Man of steel

Hall of Fame
I don't understand when people are bringing up the pay of umpires now when this could be brought up years ago. It probably has been brought up but I don't know what him being paid $450 has to do with it when other officials in other sports probably get paid lightly more or less depending on the sport.
 
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Man of steel

Hall of Fame
Come on, no one would even discuss this if the "victim" wasn't Serena Williams.
Very true. If Serena had lost without the meltdown this wouldn't be getting the traction that it is now. I'm seeing this story everywhere.

Where were people when kerber, muguruza and pliskova beat her?
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
What if a black female umpire had made the exact same call?
Serena is almost lucky, argument-wise (even though her argument is facetious), that the umpire was indeed male and white.
We're going down a dangerous path if we assume umpires make rule-based decisions based on race or gender. What then would prevent a white player from accusing a female black umpire of discrimination or unfair treatment under the same assumption that she's black, a female, and has a chip on her shoulder?
 
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EdSWright

Professional
I don't understand when people are bringing up the pay of umpires now when this could be brought up years ago. It probably has been brought up but I don't know what him being paid $450 has to do with it when other officials in other sports probably get paid lightly more or less depending on the sport.
Because when you are obscenely wealthy and incredibly famous, it is hard to make the case of a power imbalance, or that you are hard done by, especially when the other person is neither.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The two are not in a personal conflict. Ramos is the USTA's appointee so they will and have supported him. There is no power imbalance, so the class card does not work.

Because when you are obscenely wealthy and incredibly famous, it is hard to make the case of a power imbalance, or that you are hard done by, especially when the other person is neither.
 
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EdSWright

Professional
The two are not in a personal conflict. Ramos is the USTA's appointee so they will and have supported him. There is no power imbalance, so the class card does not work.
No, you misunderstood. I am not making the case of a power imbalance - Serena is, and others are.
 

reaper

Legend
What if a black female umpire had made the exact same call?
Serena is almost lucky, argument-wise (even though her argument is facetious), that the umpire was indeed male and white.
We're going down a dangerous path if we assume umpires make rule-based decisions based on race or gender. What then would prevent a white player from accusing a female black umpire of discrimination or unfair treatment under the same assumption that she's black, a female, and has a chip on her shoulder?
Making the accusation of race based bias is cause for disqualification. Medvedev was disqualified on those grounds from a match in 2016.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...r-disqualified-from-us-tournament-for-saying/
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.

reaper

Legend
Yeah, so how isn't an accusation based on misogyny also cause for punishment?
She did mention the "fight for women's rights" in her press conference, which implies an accusation of misogyny.
She's not making an accusation of misogyny (without foundation IMO) so much as unconscious bias I think. IE that men and women are treated differently for doing the same thing. The different treatment depending on who's doing the accusing and who is accused is a relic of who has been discriminated against historically.
 

Rattler

Hall of Fame
What if a black female umpire had made the exact same call?
Serena is almost lucky, argument-wise (even though her argument is facetious), that the umpire was indeed male and white.
We're going down a dangerous path if we assume umpires make rule-based decisions based on race or gender. What then would prevent a white player from accusing a female black umpire of discrimination or unfair treatment under the same assumption that she's black, a female, and has a chip on her shoulder?
Not to steer this way off course, but what black female chair umpire? What black umpire? ...qualified to chair a Major final...aka ITF Gold Badge?





























...yeah, there hasn’t been one for a while. And I can only think of one Gold Badge
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
She's not making an accusation of misogyny (without foundation IMO) so much as unconscious bias I think. IE that men and women are treated differently for doing the same thing. The different treatment depending on who's doing the accusing and who is accused is a relic of who has been discriminated against historically.
Even so, I have not been convinced of the argument that women have been treated differently in this matter.
Many men have been penalised too.
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
Not to steer this way off course, but what black female chair umpire? What black umpire? ...qualified to chair a Major final...aka ITF Gold Badge?





























...yeah, there hasn’t been one for a while. And I can only think of one Gold Badge
Ok, but the issue is what happens on the court.
I'm not discussing discrimination in society at large or why fewer black people apply for umpiring jobs.
I'm just saying that we presuppose an umpire doesn't see race or gender (or religion), otherwise the whole thing would be compromised.
Every decision a player finds unfair would, in one way or the other (because we're all a minority in something or deviants according to some standard of normality), become attached to a social justice cause of some kind.
 

George Turner

Hall of Fame
What bothers me is there is no statement from ATP or from the Official Board to support him...
Serena is a megastar of tennis. Ramos is just an employee who can be replaced.

The ATP/WTA don't want to do anything to upset their stars who make them money. That's also to blame for the lack of effort to produce a proper drug testing programme.

It's all about the Wonga.
 

dman72

Hall of Fame
Serena is a megastar of tennis. Ramos is just an employee who can be replaced.

The ATP/WTA don't want to do anything to upset their stars who make them money. That's also to blame for the lack of effort to produce a proper drug testing programme.

It's all about the Wonga.
Very true. Also part of the reason Sharapova has been given such a pass. She's pretty and she pulls ad revenue and fills seats. It's also the reason she can scream her head off, making her matches nearly unwatchable to actual tennis fans, and nothing is done. I think both Serena and Sharpie have an arrogance about them that they are bigger than the sport, enabled by the people who administer it kissing their butts. Nadal had some of that too, but they put the serve clock in which works against him. They should put a decibel meter limit on Sharapova.
 

r2473

Talk Tennis Guru
Former umpire Richard Ings has confirmed Carlos Ramos was paid $450 for officiating the final of richest tennis tournament in the world.

That's right. Carlos Ramos, the elite tennis umpire, was paid 450 bucks while Serena received nearly $2 million. No wonder the players show them no respect.

This is more outrageous than Serena or Katrina's disgraceful behavior.

https://twitter.com/ringsau
Most women’s matches last about an hour. So he is paid $450 /hr. Not bad
 

FedEx23

Semi-Pro
I've read before the chair umps don't make that much. I wonder if ATP/WTA cover travel/hotel costs? I'd think they'd about have to or they wouldn't make anything.
Yes, they get put up and are given meal vouchers and outfits for free.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
If you put it like that yeah but don't forget he officiates tens of matches throughout a tournament and gets paid for every single one of them.

The top 10 umpires in the world or so make a good living. The problem is when you're not in that group.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
If you put it like that yeah but don't forget he officiates tens of matches throughout a tournament and gets paid for every single one of them.

The top 10 umpires in the world or so make a good living. The problem is when you're not in that group.
Everything’s relative. I don’t think they make close to enough. The tours are huge businesses - they should be paying the chairs more; in addition to linespeople, physics, etc.

I wish Ramos would sue for defamation of character.
 

insideguy

Legend
Sounds hard to believe. However if they don't have a good union who knows. I know baseball umpires get paid very very well. And they have a great union.
 

Rattler

Hall of Fame
Ok, but the issue is what happens on the court.
I'm not discussing discrimination in society at large or why fewer black people apply for umpiring jobs.
I'm just saying that we presuppose an umpire doesn't see race or gender (or religion), otherwise the whole thing would be compromised.
Every decision a player finds unfair would, in one way or the other (because we're all a minority in something or deviants according to some standard of normality), become attached to a social justice cause of some kind.

No, no, no I get it...and I agree with you.
Ramos was correct in his decisions in this match. There was blatant obvious coaching, yes every coach does it, and aside from Uncle Tony, the majority are much more clandestine in their on-court coaching....that was a good call. Also when watching the match in real-time I noticed Serena looking at her box more frequently and longer than usual...(so I suspect her claim of ignorance in this is not entirely true...once again they all do it)

The heightened emotional response to the chair that “I never!,” squeal should’ve been a clue to her (as a 23 time major champion that it’s time to collect yourself or this match will quickly get away). Alas she choose to let the emotionals snowball out of control...she could’ve at that time asked for the referee to come out (he could have rescinded that Code and the her coach still would’ve gotten the message to stop...but the phrase hindsight is 20/20 exists for a reason)...the onus on that mistake rests squarely on Serena’s shoulders.

She obliterated her racquet...wep, she knew there was a code coming...I’m sure she thought it was just going to be a warning... she became unglued further...again hindsight, she should’ve seen a light come on and recognized that it’s an oncoming train...23 major winner, and professional tennis player for 20 years...she knew better....onus again on her.

The game penalty, where the claims of gender bias extend from...she called the umpire a liar, and a theif...meaning what exactly? He can’t be trusted and he has a personal agenda against her....that is what the verbal abuse was about. If a male player said that to a chair umpire the same result would happen. Period. Now have they been profanity laced tirades hurled at chair umpires by male players? Yep. But most haven’t crossed the line to question the umpires ingegrity....their ability? Yes...their judgement? Yes....their understanding? Yes...integrity? Not without a consequence.

So the gender bias and double standard in this instance is a smokescreen..is there a double standard? Yes...was it at play in this situation? I don’t believe so.

I regret the derailing comment about Black umpires....I apologize...a separate issue for another discussion.
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
No, no, no I get it...and I agree with you.
Ramos was correct in his decisions in this match. There was blatant obvious coaching, yes every coach does it, and aside from Uncle Tony, the majority are much more clandestine in their on-court coaching....that was a good call. Also when watching the match in real-time I noticed Serena looking at her box more frequently and longer than usual...(so I suspect her claim of ignorance in this is not entirely true...once again they all do it)

The heightened emotional response to the chair that “I never!,” squeal should’ve been a clue to her (as a 23 time major champion that it’s time to collect yourself or this match will quickly get away). Alas she choose to let the emotionals snowball out of control...she could’ve at that time asked for the referee to come out (he could have rescinded that Code and the her coach still would’ve gotten the message to stop...but the phrase hindsight is 20/20 exists for a reason)...the onus on that mistake rests squarely on Serena’s shoulders.

She obliterated her racquet...wep, she knew there was a code coming...I’m sure she thought it was just going to be a warning... she became unglued further...again hindsight, she should’ve seen a light come on and recognized that it’s an oncoming train...23 major winner, and professional tennis player for 20 years...she knew better....onus again on her.

The game penalty, where the claims of gender bias extend from...she called the umpire a liar, and a theif...meaning what exactly? He can’t be trusted and he has a personal agenda against her....that is what the verbal abuse was about. If a male player said that to a chair umpire the same result would happen. Period. Now have they been profanity laced tirades hurled at chair umpires by male players? Yep. But most haven’t crossed the line to question the umpires ingegrity....their ability? Yes...their judgement? Yes....their understanding? Yes...integrity? Not without a consequence.

So the gender bias and double standard in this instance is a smokescreen..is there a double standard? Yes...was it at play in this situation? I don’t believe so.

I regret the derailing comment about Black umpires....I apologize...a separate issue for another discussion.
No problem, this is actually a very good post.
 

Service Ace

Hall of Fame
What if a black female umpire had made the exact same call?
Serena is almost lucky, argument-wise (even though her argument is facetious), that the umpire was indeed male and white.
We're going down a dangerous path if we assume umpires make rule-based decisions based on race or gender. What then would prevent a white player from accusing a female black umpire of discrimination or unfair treatment under the same assumption that she's black, a female, and has a chip on her shoulder?
 

Rattler

Hall of Fame
Brings up an interesting point...Hewitt danced around that issue as best he could, but I think it’s pretty obvious that he was making an insinuation of racial bias (thought it at the time of the match and nothing had really changed)...yes, it was in competition, he was in a tough match with a skilled player...Hewitt had a point about being only called for foot faults with that baseline umpire and had grounds to ask the chair to move that umpire to another position...but as many have pointed out the stress and challenging situations reveal character at the moment. It can be used to build it as well...with that notion of stress and challenging situations revealing character...how does that apply to Serena’s well documented history of acting entitled and petulant? ...this over the course of her career and still evident in her last match?





Things that make you go hmmmm
 

thrust

Hall of Fame
Come on, no one would even discuss this if the "victim" wasn't Serena Williams.
TRUE! Serena pulls these tactics when losing at the USO because she has most of the fans rooting for her. IMO, by continuing to argue with Ramos and delay play, she was hoping that Osaka would lose focus or get rattled and lose her playing edge. She tried these tactics with Stosur and Clijsters when things were not going her way. No doubt Serena is one of the very greatest female players of all time, but she is also great at gamesmanship.
 
...by continuing to argue with Ramos and delay play, she was hoping that Osaka would lose focus or get rattled and lose her playing edge. She tried these tactics with Stosur and Clijsters when things were not going her way.
Yes, her highness should take acting lessons from johnny mac, it would work for him and now he earns a tidy living off his past "bad boy" reputation as a commentator. He would go on a rant, while his poor opponent would sit meekly on the bench, lose rhythm and then lose the match--but players are on to it now.
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
Not enough to be abused by a player and several newspapers of being an incompetent bigot, then have no public support from your employer. :(

FYI, the USTA is not his employer.

Interestingly, one of the factors relied upon by the Judge in the applicable lawsuit to determine the status of the umpires and lines persons that ruled that they are not employees but independent contractors was their “immense discretion” on the court, including to suspend play or discipline players. :)
 
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tennisfan2015

Hall of Fame
I would say for the level of skill he displays that is actually a pretty small pay.

The men's final finished in 3 hours 15 minutes, so that makes less than $150 an hour before taxes.

:cool:
There is no display of skills, just an understanding of the rules. He does not train every day nor anyone comes to see him. He is doing a job for which he is getting paid $150 p/h or the same as an industrial designer who has a load of skills to display.
 

wangs78

Hall of Fame
These umps should get paid more ($450 sounds like a joke for officiating a show court match at a Slam), but hard to say how much as I don't know if they are paid by the hour and how many matches per tournament they call. However, I will say that the job does reap its own rewards. Officiating a Slam final between all time greats is a priceless experience when you have the best seat in the house. And I'm sure these umpires would not have gotten into it unless they enjoyed it. If I could have Pascal Maria's career (he ump'd the 2008 Wimby final as well as many other ones), I'd take it in a heartbeat over my own which probably pays a lot better than his.
 

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
With a day of reflection after the facts, it strikes me that people should start copying the Serena tirade, it would have a fantastic comical effect.

That's how preposterous it was.

Serena "apologize to me" Williams.

Serena "defamation" Williams.

Serena "equality" Williams.

There's no end to this.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
So Serena Williams now gets blamed for what the USTA pays Ramos?
No but she might want to spare a thought for the paltry sums professional umpires get paid in order to endure all kinds of abuse from the overpaid darlings of the tennis court. How about she take up their cause in addition to banging on about how mothers like her are so badly done to when an umpire tries to enforce the rules of the game?
 
Must be wondering why the hell he bothers-450 bucks for officiating a slam final? Amazed he even bothered rocking the boat. I would have thought that gig would be at least 10 grand. Virtual slave labour. Wonder if Serena who is all about equality will be demanding a pay rise for all the umpires?
 

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
That's right. Carlos Ramos, the elite tennis umpire, was paid 450 bucks
You have to bring something unique to the event. Michael Buffer is paid 5 million dollars each time he steps into a ring and says "Let's get ready to rumble!" in his distinctive manner. Perhaps Ramos could try "Let's get ready to rally" or something.
 
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