"..changed Rafa's game so he can have longer career". Toni Nadal

[babbette]

sorry if it has been posted before. I go in and out of the site quickly.

"We've changed Rafa's game so he can have a longer career"

He has taken a break from coaching, taking advantage of Rafa's participation in the Asian Tour, but he's already thinking of the mechanisms needed to successfully face the last great challenge of the season, the London Masters. Toni Nadal (Manacor, 1961) is proud of his nephew's achievements, but his search for perfection is relentless, and he believes that there are still several things to improve. It is the privilege that he has as the tennis coach of a player that has no limits.

Question. - Beyond suffering for the outcome, did you have the chance to enjoy the Final of the US Open?

Answer: Viewed from the stands it was an extraordinary match for any tennis fan. The following day I asked McEnroe and he said the same thing, that he liked it a lot. Rafa had the fortune to play his best tennis in the day that he had to, because the level showed by Djokovic was exceptional. It was necessary for Rafa to give everything to win. Yes, I suffered a lot, but it may seem a contradiction cause I also enjoyed a lot.

Q. - Since you talk about McEnroe, some say that the level of tennis in the past was better that the level of today. Do you believe it?

R. - This is an eternal debate, not just in tennis but in any sport. Even with Carlos Moya I have discussed it on several occasions and we haven't agreed. In my opinion the true level of this generation should be measured based on the number of times a player gets to the semifinals or final. Currently we have four or five guys who almost never fail. They are always on the top, they always win tournaments. In the past the level was more even.

Q. - Do you think that this consistency is due to an empirical reality. I mean, that they are better than the rest of the players?

R. - If you look at the semifinals of the four Grand Slams of the season we will see that there had been no surprises. Usually the favourites reach these stages of a tournament. Since 2005 only Federer, Rafa, Djokovic and Del Potro have won Grand Slam tournaments. That shows they are very solid.

Q. - Do you mean that the players are better today?

A. - I do not know what would happen if Lendl played today and it will be impossible to know because it will not happen, but I think that the five Top Players are very good. Take for example the case of Federer, until Roland Garros this year he had 25 consecutive Grand Slam semifinals. That is amazing, something that nobody had ever done before, and it shows how difficult it is to beat him. And that was not happening before.

Q. - What do you mean?

R. - Look at Pete Sampras, who was one of the best players I've had the opportunity to see in my life. He was extraordinary, but when Roland Garros came, I do not know what happened to him, he could never win it and for many years he was defeated in early rounds. Now, however, Top Players play their best not matter the surface.

Q. – It could also be the case that the consistency they show is due to the fact that those below them, have a low level themselves, right?

A. - I do not agree. I think professional sports tends to evolve over time. Feats never get worse, but better. That means something.

Q. - Did you mention the example of Sampras and Roland Garros. I might add that Borg was never able to win the US Open. I say this for the comparisons between the Swedish and Rafa...

A. – That's anecdotal. Borg at that time was comparable to Federer today. He was a player that marked a difference from the rest, although it is true that he could only do this for a couple of years because he retired very young. Anyway, I personally think that Borg, in his peak, was better than Rafa nowadays.

Q. - Do you think it will always be like that?

A. - I rely on numbers and prefer to be cautious. Rafa is 24 and has 9 Grand Slam titles. At the same age Wilander had 7 and from that moment on he could not win any more. It is true that today there is no indication that Rafa will not be able to increase this number, but that has not happened yet. It's still only a possibility, and because of that, Borg is still the best.

Q. - Speaking of awards, although virtual, what do you think of the initiative to proclaim Rafa the best Spanish athlete of all time?

A. - That is very subjective. I will not deny that Rafa is one of the great Spanish sportsmen, but from there to proclaim him the best is far away, because first of all we have to establish a scale, and I think that is impossible. Ten million people play football but only one, plays tennis. How do I compare them?

Q. – Cause of their titles maybe?

R. - In our country there have been many and great athletes. I can not remember them all, but now the name of Severiano Ballesteros comes to my mind, who won five major tournaments and was for a long time number one in the world. On the other hand, I think of Angel Nieto. His case is not the same, because although it is true that he won 13 World Cups, it was in small tournaments. Indurain is another one who made history and was the best in the world at the time. There are a lot of opinions and they are all valid.

Q. - Rafa is 24 years old. For any other sport, he would be very young. In tennis, however, few players manage to play at maximum level above 30. Do you see him at that age still on top?

A. - It is impossible to answer that now, but it is true that based on training and sacrifice we were able to modify the initial concept Rafa had of tennis. His game is less physical now, and therefore it implies less wear and tear. In the US Open Final, Djokovic ran as much or more than him, and that seemed impossible just a couple of years ago. We have also selected best the tournaments he played and we have increased the periods of rest, and I think all these measures can help him enjoy a slightly longer career.

Q. - And mentally is he fresh?

A. - When we talk about Rafa's career we often forget that he started playing tennis at a very high level when he was not yet 17 years old. This means that we already have eight seasons in the circuit, and if he has to continue playing till 30 he should complete 14 consecutive seasons. It will be difficult, and therefore it will be more important to carefully select the tournaments he'll play.

Q. – In what aspects Rafa's game has evolved from RG 2005 until this recent US Open win?

A. - When Rafa won in Paris for the first time I told him to notice what had happened to Hewitt, who lost the number one very quickly for not having improved. He got the message and now I can say, many years later, that he has evolved positively in all aspects of his game, even with the serve, which was difficult for him. Of course there are still many things to be improved, but he has managed to become a pretty complete player.

Q. - His sacrifice has not only consisted in a lot of hours on court and at the gym. He has suffered in silence too painful treatments, right?

A. - I remember Christmas of 2008 to 2009, when we were preparing the Australia Open that later he won. He could not finish any single training because of the pain he suffered in the knees. That same year, in Rome, the story was similar. Yes, he has suffered a lot and endured extreme treatments, but he knows that's part of his profession and that he has to endure it.

Q. – Don't you think that sometimes you ask too much of him?

R. - I've always been very critical of him and I do not accept any excuses, because the only way to win is by working hard. Rafa knows it and accepts it, because it is a condition I asked him from the first day we started training. That's me and I will not change because he wins one or one hundred tournaments. I always ask him the best and a little more.

Q. – There are only a few tournaments he hasn't won yet. From the big ones, only the Masters remains. Is this the year?

A. - So far it hasn't gone well because it is played in indoor, which is the surface that's more difficult for him, and he has played in bad conditions physically. This season, however, if all goes well, we arrive there with another expectation. It will be difficult to win, but I hope at least it won't be as bad as last year, when he could not win a single set.

Q. - And then we start again in January, with the first Grand Slam of the season. So far, Rod Laver's been the only one who managed to win the four straight Slams. Rafa can equal that mark in Australia…

A. - It is very far yet, but it certainly would be something amazing. Anyway, the feeling I have is that it will be very difficult.

 

[Mustard]

Good interview from Toni there. Rafa is lucky to have him as his tennis coach

 

[Justin Side]

I had to laugh when I read Toni is taking a break from coaching Rafa. Hasn't Toni been taking breaks all year? Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Toni only coached Rafa at the major events since the French started in late May? I think Toni coached Rafa at the French(Rafa won), skipped Queens(Rafa lost), coached him at Wimbledon(Rafa won) skipped Toronto(Rafa lost), skipped Cincy(Rafa lost) and showed up again at the US Open(Rafa won).

 

[veroniquem]

This is a comment by the journalist, not anything Toni himself said.

I agree with everything Toni says except maybe for the "always been critical of him" answer. I see Rafa's injury issues as being possibly the direct consequence of Toni pushing him relentlessly and not accepting pain as an excuse. As a result of that education, Rafa doesn't feel his own physical limits and hurt his body a lot at a young age by overstepping them time and again.

 

[Ash_Smith]

I had to laugh when I read Toni is taking a break from coaching Rafa. Hasn't Toni been taking breaks all year? Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Toni only coached Rafa at the major events since the French started in late May? I think Toni coached Rafa at the French(Rafa won), skipped Queens(Rafa lost), coached him at Wimbledon(Rafa won) skipped Toronto(Rafa lost), skipped Cincy(Rafa lost) and showed up again at the US Open(Rafa won).

Yep, traditionally Rafa has had Francis Roig and Toni Colom travel with him at different parts of the year. Francis ofter does the Wimbledon warm-up events and last year Toni Colom travelled with him at the end of the year and to the ATP Masters.

Ash

 

[Emet74]

I agree with everything Toni says except maybe for the "always been critical of him" answer. I see Rafa's injury issues as being possibly the direct consequence of Toni pushing him relentlessly and not accepting pain as an excuse. As a result of that education, Rafa doesn't feel his own physical limits and hurt his body a lot at a young age by overstepping them time and again.

veroniquem,
We disagree on some things but overall I find you an intelligent poster and I wonder if your above comment is true. Nadal gave an interview earlier this year where he spoke of how hard Toni was on him a child, to the point that he was sometimes afraid to be alone w/ him.

Obviously Toni has done an amazing job w/ Nadal in his career but I do wonder at what price.

No question Nadal is far from the only player to suffer from serious injuries. Still, the total domination Toni has has over Rafa from a young age has always creeped me out a bit, and made it tough for me to really root for Nadal as a player, altho' he seems like a very nice kid.

 

[veroniquem]

I don't see it as "that" sinister! Do you have the quote of Nadal saying he's afraid to stay alone with Toni? I don't remember him ever saying that but he did make comments suggesting Toni was very harsh on him. Sometimes Rafa doesn't know where to stop and how would he know if Toni taught him there is never any valid reason to do so?
Other than this particular issue, I find Toni to have very bright insights about the game of tennis in general (technique and mental) and the way pro competition works.

 

[octogon]

This is a comment by the journalist, not anything Toni himself said.

I agree with everything Toni says except maybe for the "always been critical of him" answer. I see Rafa's injury issues as being possibly the direct consequence of Toni pushing him relentlessly and not accepting pain as an excuse. As a result of that education, Rafa doesn't feel his own physical limits and hurt his body a lot at a young age by overstepping them time and again.

I agree with this. The flip side is, Rafa wouldn't be the tenacious "never say die" player he is today, if Toni wasn't such a relentless taskmaster. Toni has probably pushed him to physical breaking point, but maybe there was no other way to make him the player he's become. Food for thought.

Obviously Toni has tried to find ways to reduce the physical punishment of Rafa's game, so he probably doesn't push him quite as hard anymore (especially since he knows Rafa has accquired the neccsary skills to lessen the need for a punishing style of play).

If you look at the game today, teenagers don't break into the tour anymore. They haven't got the physical capability to live with the guys at the top. Rafa was one of the last teenagers to make a big impact on the tour, and that's because Toni's regime made him a powerful physical specimin very early.

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

Cliff's notes please, who can read through all that?

I've said this before and I'll say this again. The same posters that credit Uncle Toni and protege with being intelligent, brilliant, exceedingly smart etc etc when it comes to beating Fed, will turn around and beat up on them in a pro-Nadal thread. What gives?

You cannot have it both ways:

A coach that runs his tennis player into the ground is neither a master tactician nor an intelligent maestro.

Nadal cannot be a most intelligent tennis player while grinding his tendons into a bloody mess, can he?

Christ, it's been 8 years, when will these guys learn to listen to internet posters?

 

[veroniquem]

(answer to octogon) I think the physical power had a lot to do with genetics as well. Sure, Rafa's "never say die" attitude is one of the things people admire the most about him and it did bring him a lot of victories, you're right. Still there must be a way to be mentally and physically tough without going beyond certain boundaries. I can think of a few times when Rafa pushed beyond those boundaries and when he would have benefited in the long term from not doing so. I still remember that at the end of 2005, doctors were not sure if his foot would let him play at a high level ever again. He was just 19.

Ivan: I don't understand your point. A coach can be excellent without being perfect. A coach is a human being, he's liable to make some mistakes like the rest of us and still be brilliant as a coach.

 

[octogon]

Cliff's notes please, who can read through all that?

I've said this before and I'll say this again. The same posters that credit Uncle Toni and protege with being intelligent, brilliant, exceedingly smart etc etc when it comes to beating Fed, will turn around and beat up on them in a pro-Nadal thread. What gives?

You cannot have it both ways:

A coach that runs his tennis player into the ground is neither a master tactician nor an intelligent maestro.

Nadal cannot be a most intelligent tennis player while grinding his tendons into a bloody mess, can he?

Actually you can. It's always been a process. Toni knew Rafa had the intelligence to accquire a complete game, but it would take time. Many years. In the meantime, they had to make him a relentless physical specimin with a will of iron, to make up for his techincal shortcomings (which they were always working on getting to).

It's a genius strategy, and frankly, despite some touch and go moments, it worked. But everything about the Nadal's (including Rafa's game) has always been slightly bonkers and unorthodox. There's saying about "there beiing method to madness"...to me that suits Toni Nadal to a tee. He knew he was taking a huge risk in the way he coached his charge, but he also knew the reward might be worth the risk. And he may be proven right. 24 years old and a GOAT contender.

Toni ain't no dummy.

 

[Emet74]

I don't see it as "that" sinister! Do you have the quote of Nadal saying he's afraid to stay alone with Toni? I don't remember him ever saying that but he did make comments suggesting Toni was very harsh on him. Sometimes Rafa doesn't know where to stop and how would he know if Toni taught him there is never any valid reason to do so?
Other than this particular issue, I find Toni to have very bright insights about the game of tennis in general (technique and mental) and the way pro competition works.

Well, he doesn't say he's afraid now, just as a child on court sometimes!

Here's a link to a translation of the interview (plus original spanish): it's El Pais tho' so you may not think it's credible given the whole wierd USO coaching interview. Actually it's an interesting interview overall; I think the stuff he said about Fed was discussed here at the time.

http://www.ubitennis.com/english/sport/tennis/2010/06/10/343866-nadal_depth.shtml

Sinister is surely too strong a word; there are many worse out there, like some of those crazy WTA dads. And clearly Toni does have terrific insight into the game and what it takes to succeed at the highest levels.

 

[bolo]

Toni's a smart guy and he's done a good job so far but I think it's time for a new coach. Time for a whole new set of ideas, maybe cahill? I bet he would have gotten the serve to this level faster.

 

[veroniquem]

Emet: very interesting interview, many thanks for the link. He does say he was afraid of staying alone with Toni but that it ended up making him stronger.
Still, as an educator myself, I can't say I will ever feel comfortable with the "terrorizing" method. As you said, no matter how many trophies it gets you, the "human" price to pay is just too high.

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

Ivan: I don't understand your point. A coach can be excellent without being perfect. A coach is a human being, he's liable to make some mistakes like the rest of us and still be brilliant as a coach.

I never said 'perfect', to me that word has metaphysical connotations. I actually used words that are often used by yourself and other to describe Uncle Toni and Rafa - intelligent, smart, "Uncle Toni knows best" etc etc on Rafa's accomplishments.

An excellent coach by definition will not run his nephew into the ground. Internet posters keep pointing out that Rafa plays too hard, he's entered in too many tournaments, his knees, oh his knees, please God save his knees.
Is Uncle Toni too preoccupied to notice this? In his quest to turn Rafa into GOAT, has he become mentally deranged?

Or maybe, people should not believe every single word an athlete or his coach feeds to the press?

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

Toni's a smart guy and he's done a good job so far but I think it's time for a new coach. Time for a whole new set of ideas, maybe cahill? I bet he would have gotten the serve to this level faster.

Interesting, you're the first person on here I've seen that thinks a coaching shakeup would be a good thing.

Let's see what the masses say.How about you start a new thread, I like the topic!

 

[octogon]

I never said 'perfect', to me that word has metaphysical connotations. I actually used words that are often used by yourself and other to describe Uncle Toni and Rafa - intelligent, smart, "Uncle Toni knows best" etc etc on Rafa's accomplishments.

An excellent coach by definition will not run his nephew into the ground. Internet posters keep pointing out that Rafa plays too hard, he's entered in too many tournaments, his knees, oh his knees, please God save his knees.
Is Uncle Toni too preoccupied to notice this? In his quest to turn Rafa into GOAT, has he become mentally deranged?

Toni ran Rafa into the ground, when his game wasn't yet complete. So hard work had to compensate, in his mind. You might not agree, but Uncle T felt it was worth it.

Every great coach makes mistakes and errors. I'm a soccer fan, and I know the great managers (like Arsene Wenger of Arsenal or Alex Fereguson of Manchester United) often make mistakes of blunders in the search for success. Toni is no different. I think he's learned his lesson though. Toni obviously knows Rafa's physical limits and capabilities better than anyone, and he keeps arguing to everyone now that will listen, that Rafa's current game isn't taxing his body anywhere near as much, as his game used to in previous seasons. So I think he feels the "current" Rafa can comfortably handle his current schedule without breaking down.

 

[veroniquem]

I never said 'perfect', to me that word has metaphysical connotations. I actually used words that are often used by yourself and other to describe Uncle Toni and Rafa - intelligent, smart, "Uncle Toni knows best" etc etc on Rafa's accomplishments.

An excellent coach by definition will not run his nephew into the ground. Internet posters keep pointing out that Rafa plays too hard, he's entered in too many tournaments, his knees, oh his knees, please God save his knees.
Is Uncle Toni too preoccupied to notice this? In his quest to turn Rafa into GOAT, has he become mentally deranged?

Or maybe, people should not believe every single word an athlete or his coach feeds to the press?

Toni has NOT run Rafa's career into the ground, absolutely not. You can tell by Rafa being #1 and a GOAT contender at 24!!!!
He's been a remarkable coach who may have been exaggeratedly controlling or demanding at some points (although Rafa himself appreciates the fact it made him stronger). That "flaw" if you want to call it that does not mean in any way or form that he "destroyed" Rafa's career. That's a melodramatic, over the top satement. It is quite plain for everyone to see that Rafa's career is blooming.

 

[TennisFan3]

Toni has NOT run Rafa's career into the ground, absolutely not. You can tell by Rafa being #1 and a GOAT contender at 24!!!!
He's been a remarkable coach who may have been exaggeratedly controlling or demanding at some points (although Rafa himself appreciates the fact it made him stronger). That "flaw" if you want to call it that does not mean in any way or form that he "destroyed" Rafa's career. That's a melodramatic, over the top satement. It is quite plain for everyone to see that Rafa's career is blooming.

While Nadal's results have been excellent, what's to say that they couldn't have been EVEN better with a specialist coach; someone who would have taught him "proper" technique instead of hitting shots like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_RqaEsBiM -- which screws up his knees and his body.

When Nadal started (as a teenager), he used to hit a MUCH flatter and harder ball from his forehand ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikNlsRBT8-0 ), even though he was half the size he is now. His forehand had much more penetration and he used to swing across his body MORE as opposed to the over the head reverse forehand finish of today.

For some reason starting 2005, Nadal stopped being as aggressive, developed this grinding style - with exaggerated spin - that forced him to retreat behind the baseline, defend and run run run... Obviously, that was hell on his knees.

In so many years of watching tennis, I've never seen any other player who's so resilient in the face of adversity. Nadal's career has been a sum of great runs followed by down time to let his body heal - and then back again. For the past few years, it seems that the only obstacle for Nadal has been injuries. When he is physically 100% - and on one of his great runs - his focus and intensity are second to none; consequently, he is almost impossible to beat.

I think Nadal is an extraordinarily gifted athlete with a very high threshold for pain. Attributing most of Nadal's success to Toni is just conjecture. Nadal is just too talented. He would have been a great player irrespective of who coached him..

 

[Ash_Smith]

To put it in perspective please bear in mind that Rafa (when a junior) used to train 3 times per week with Toni Colom at his academy in Majorca and then trained with Toni Nadal the rest of the week. T.Nadal is by no means the only coach to have had input into Rafa's career.

@Tennisfan3 - pushing an agenda much! That clip is by no means representative of Rafa's backhand - you need to take into account the situation on court. You'll find plenty of clips of Murray, Djokovic etc in a similar situation performing a similar swing/body shape. To say Rafa needed a coach to teach him 'proper technique' is nonsense - his technique is phenominal.

Ash

 

[nereis]

Uncle Toni has been instrumental in developing the young Rafael's mental game. The forehand may be his main weapon but what separates him from his peers is his complete mental composure and the way he can just psyche out the opposition. Whether or not he has "run him into the ground" is pure conjecture. It's unlikely at this stage in his career that Nadal's schedule is still managed by his coach, uncle or no. It's far more likely that the tendinitis would have flared up sooner or later no matter what, as doctors from the Nadal camp have stated, the problem is that Rafael was always genetically predisposed to knee problems.

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

Uncle Toni has been instrumental in developing the young Rafael's mental game. The forehand may be his main weapon but what separates him from his peers is his complete mental composure and the way he can just psyche out the opposition. Whether or not he has "run him into the ground" is pure conjecture. It's unlikely at this stage in his career that Nadal's schedule is still managed by his coach, uncle or no. It's far more likely that the tendinitis would have flared up sooner or later no matter what, as doctors from the Nadal camp have stated, the problem is that Rafael was always genetically predisposed to knee problems.

Are you Rafa or is this pure conjecture? How do you know that "Rafael was always genetically predisposed to knee problems" ?

 

[nadal_slam_king]

Rafa's 'knee problems' are the best type, and not really an 'injury'. Tendonitis is treated in cycles. You return to 100% after each treatment (not in 2009 though, because they were using the wrong method of treatment). Rafa had tendonitis in both knees this year, and each knee returned to 100% (one was treated early in the year and the other was treated after Wimbledon).

It's not really an 'injury' in terms of the kind Scud and Krajicek had. And not the injury Agassi had either. It's nothing like that. Tendonitis is what Venus and Serena have always had, since they turned pro. They chose to not play many events, and that worked for them. Rafa took the harder road. But as Rafa gets older he will likely play a lesser schedule anyway.

 

[bolo]

Uncle Toni has been instrumental in developing the young Rafael's mental game. The forehand may be his main weapon but what separates him from his peers is his complete mental composure and the way he can just psyche out the opposition. Whether or not he has "run him into the ground" is pure conjecture. It's unlikely at this stage in his career that Nadal's schedule is still managed by his coach, uncle or no. It's far more likely that the tendinitis would have flared up sooner or later no matter what, as doctors from the Nadal camp have stated, the problem is that Rafael was always genetically predisposed to knee problems.

Who do you think manages his schedule? Xisca?

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

Rafa's 'knee problems' are the best type, and not really an 'injury'. Tendonitis is treated in cycles. You return to 100% after each treatment (not in 2009 though, because they were using the wrong method of treatment). Rafa had tendonitis in both knees this year, and each knee returned to 100% (one was treated early in the year and the other was treated after Wimbledon).

It's not really an 'injury' in terms of the kind Scud and Krajicek had. And not the injury Agassi had either. It's nothing like that. Tendonitis is what Venus and Serena have always had, since they turned pro. They chose to not play many events, and that worked for them. Rafa took the harder road. But as Rafa gets older he will likely play a lesser schedule anyway.

Are you Rafa or is this pure conjecture?

How do you know that "It's not really an 'injury' in terms of the kind Scud and Krajicek had. And not the injury Agassi had either. It's nothing like that. Tendonitis is what Venus and Serena have always had, since they turned pro." ?

 

[veroniquem]

Are you Rafa or is this pure conjecture? How do you know that "Rafael was always genetically predisposed to knee problems" ?

There have been articles about that in the early days.

 

[veroniquem]

I think Nadal is an extraordinarily gifted athlete with a very high threshold for pain. Attributing most of Nadal's success to Toni is just conjecture. Nadal is just too talented. He would have been a great player irrespective of who coached him..

I have to agree with that part wholeheartedly.

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

There have been articles about that in the early days.

Were these articles written before his knee problems or after?

Hindsight is always 20/20 vision.

 

[veroniquem]

I don't remember sorry but I remember the comments about genetic fragility of the joints.

 

[bolo]

Were these articles written before his knee problems or after?

Hindsight is always 20/20 vision.

They were written after his foot injury towards the end of the 2005 season IIRC.

 

[mistik]

i still beleive rafa would have won the RG last year if he skipped all the masters events but only play RG.he also wouldnt miss wimbledon.rafas never die attidue cost him big time last year,even his team cant stopped him..

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

I don't remember sorry but I remember the comments about genetic fragility of the joints.

Fair enough, I will poke around and see what pops up.

 

[bolo]

i still beleive rafa would have won the RG last year if he skipped all the masters events but only play RG.he also wouldnt miss wimbledon.rafas never die attidue cost him big time last year,even his team cant stopped him..

or his team took part in encouraging him until they realized they went too far. You can tell toni's a real hard ass.

 

[veroniquem]

I agree that 2009 is hard to understand. Toni claims that as early as December 2008, Rafa couldn't finish his practices because of how bad the pain was.
And he won the AO in that state :shock: That seems almost superhuman. But then why go all out in Rotterdam? (He could hardly walk in the final) and why the 3 clay events in a row without a break? Why spending his last reserves in Madrid? Why not take a break earlier? Why forcing? Was it Toni's decision or Rafa's? Why let the situation deteriorate that bad at the worst possible time of the year for them? So many questions and no answer. I just cannot understand how one can be encouraged to play through pain that much and for that long. It was Toni's responsability to put his foot down and seek treatment if Rafa wasn't reasonable enough to do it himself.

 

[jackson vile]

Good interview from Toni there. Rafa is lucky to have him as his tennis coach

Roger doesn't need a coach, why does Nadal? = weak?

 

[veroniquem]

He doesn't? Maybe with a good coach he would have beaten Rafa more often...

 

[bolo]

I agree that 2009 is hard to understand. Toni claims that as early as December 2008, Rafa couldn't finish his practices because of how bad the pain was.
And he won the AO in that state :shock: That seems almost superhuman. But then why go all out in Rotterdam? (He could hardly walk in the final) and why the 3 clay events in a row without a break? Why spending his last reserves in Madrid? Why not take a break earlier? Why forcing? Was it Toni's decision or Rafa's? Why let the situation deteriorate that bad at the worst possible time of the year for them? So many questions and no answer. I just cannot understand how one can be encouraged to play through pain that much and for that long. It was Toni's responsability to put his foot down and seek treatment if Rafa wasn't reasonable enough to do it himself.

Exactly, that's what I got from this interview as well, he must have been under some serious painkillers at that AO.

With regards to your other comments, they explained it an earlier interview, they thought if nadal can take madrid he could more or less wrap up the no. 1 right then and there. Obviously they assumed his chances of winning RG and wimbledon wouldn't be affected by entering madrid. They played this hand before in 2007 (and to lesser degrees in 2006 and 2008 ) and they pulled it off in 2007 and so they probably assumed it was again doable. Wrong.

The no. 1 was a key driver in their thinking when they entered madrid.

 

[Emet74]

Exactly, that's what I got from this interview as well, he must have been under some serious painkillers at that AO.

I remember an interview w/ Nadal (not sure if I can refind it though) where he was asked whether he might have won the FO '09 despite the knee pain if he could have gotten past Sod. Rafa answered that it was possible, as he may have decided to up his dose of painkillers in the last few rounds.

Obviously you don't want to overdo pain meds because of issues w/ side effects. Rafa's answer sounded to me like they tried to calibrate the dose to the degree of difficulty of the round/opponant, and just miscalculated with the Sod.

 

[bolo]

I remember an interview w/ Nadal (not sure if I can refind it though) where he was asked whether he might have won the FO '09 despite the knee pain if he could have gotten past Sod. Rafa answered that it was possible, as he may have decided to up his dose of painkillers in the last few rounds.

Obviously you don't want to overdo pain meds because of issues w/ side effects. Rafa's answer sounded to me like they tried to calibrate the dose to the degree of difficulty of the round/opponant, and just miscalculated with the Sod.

That would be interesting emet74, I don't think I read that one. I read one where he said the Soderling match was not necessarily the problem but that things had the potential to get more complicated in later rounds where he would probably have to run even more, like against someone like davydenko.

 

[Mustard]

Playing Hamburg in 2007 was some extra points for Rafa. Also, Rafa hadn't played Hamburg since 2003. He missed it in 2004 because of a stress fracture in his ankle, and he missed it in 2005 and 2006 because of fatique after marathon 2005 and 2006 finals in Rome. In 2005, he also had a nasty blister on the butt of his hand.

In 2009, as bolo says, Nadal and his team were making a push to sow up the number 1 ranking for the year by trying to build a surge of momentum like Rafa had in 2008, but it backfired in 2009.

 

[veroniquem]

I remember an interview w/ Nadal (not sure if I can refind it though) where he was asked whether he might have won the FO '09 despite the knee pain if he could have gotten past Sod. Rafa answered that it was possible, as he may have decided to up his dose of painkillers in the last few rounds.

Obviously you don't want to overdo pain meds because of issues w/ side effects. Rafa's answer sounded to me like they tried to calibrate the dose to the degree of difficulty of the round/opponant, and just miscalculated with the Sod.

I've always thought there was a surprise factor with Soderling at RG 2009. He had never amounted to much on clay but he had just got a new coach and his clay level skyrocketed. It was completely unpredictable. I'm pretty sure Rafa was not prepared for the "new" Sod on clay.

 

[Cyan]

I agree that 2009 is hard to understand. Toni claims that as early as December 2008, Rafa couldn't finish his practices because of how bad the pain was.
And he won the AO in that state :shock: That seems almost superhuman. But then why go all out in Rotterdam? (He could hardly walk in the final) and why the 3 clay events in a row without a break? Why spending his last reserves in Madrid? Why not take a break earlier? Why forcing? Was it Toni's decision or Rafa's? Why let the situation deteriorate that bad at the worst possible time of the year for them? So many questions and no answer. I just cannot understand how one can be encouraged to play through pain that much and for that long. It was Toni's responsability to put his foot down and seek treatment if Rafa wasn't reasonable enough to do it himself.

Yeah, very strange scheduling... Had they been more cautious, Rafa could be sitting on 11 slams now.:shock:

 

[Mustard]

I've always thought there was a surprise factor with Soderling at RG 2009. He had never amounted to much on clay but he had just got a new coach and his clay level skyrocketed. It was completely unpredictable. I'm pretty sure Rafa was not prepared for the "new" Sod on clay.

It's probably the biggest upset of all time:


1. Nadal had won 139 of his last 142 matches on clay

2. Nadal was 22-1 on clay in 2009 going into the match

3. Nadal was 31-0 at the French Open

4. Soderling was playing his first ever Round of 16 match at slam level

5. All 9 of Soderling's career finals at that stage, 3 of which he won, were indoors on either hardcourt or carpet

6. Soderling was just 7-4 on clay in 2009 going into the match

7. Nadal had beaten Soderling 6-1, 6-0 in Rome just 1 month earlier

8. Nadal had a 3-0 head-to-head lead against Soderling

 

[nadal_slam_king]

Are you Rafa or is this pure conjecture?

How do you know that "It's not really an 'injury' in terms of the kind Scud and Krajicek had. And not the injury Agassi had either. It's nothing like that. Tendonitis is what Venus and Serena have always had, since they turned pro." ?

Because Scud and Krajicek didn't have knee tendonitis. They had major ligament problems and required surgery. And Agassi had a sciatic nerve problem. Rafa doesn't need surgery, he only has tendonitis.

The same tendonitis which Venus and Serena have had since they were teens, not just in their knees but in their wrists too. Venus couldn't even jump to hit her serve during her 6-1 6-1 loss to Hingis in 2001 Australian Open semis. Roddick has also always had tendonitis. Notice these players are heading for their 30s and outlasting their generation?

These players take breaks when they get tendonitis. Rafa doesn't take breaks, he instead chooses to have treatment so he can play a more hectic schedule. But when he gets older he will likely take the lighter schedule.

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

Because Scud and Krajicek didn't have knee tendonitis. They had major ligament problems and required surgery. And Agassi had a sciatic nerve problem. Rafa doesn't need surgery, he only has tendonitis.

The same tendonitis which Venus and Serena have had since they were teens, not just in their knees but in their wrists too. Venus couldn't even jump to hit her serve during her 6-1 6-1 loss to Hingis in 2001 Australian Open semis. Roddick has also always had tendonitis. Notice these players are heading for their 30s and outlasting their generation?

These players take breaks when they get tendonitis. Rafa doesn't take breaks, he instead chooses to have treatment so he can play a more hectic schedule. But when he gets older he will likely take the lighter schedule.

So Nadal takes some treatment & plays more tennis than the Williams' sisters? This leads to more questions than answers, don't you agree?

Questions like:

Is Nadal's treatment far superior to that available to others?

Does he have a milder form of tendinitis than them?

Does he prefer the short term goal of winning everything and the knees be damned?

Anything I haven't covered?

I can understand if you do not have the answers since a lot of this is privy to Nadal & his team. Hence my 'conjecture comment.

In science there is no magic, there is no suspension of belief, there are only theories that are falsifiable.

 

[nadal_slam_king]

So Nadal takes some treatment & plays more tennis than the Williams' sisters? This leads to more questions than answers, don't you agree?

Questions like:

Is Nadal's treatment far superior to that available to others?

Does he have a milder form of tendinitis than them?

Does he prefer the short term goal of winning everything and the knees be damned?

Anything I haven't covered?

I can understand if you do not have the answers since a lot of this is privy to Nadal & his team. Hence my 'conjecture comment.

In science there is no magic, there is no suspension of belief, there are only theories that are falsifiable.

You know the treatment by now surely. Rafa's doctor just explained it all in an interview. It's blood-spinning, take blood, spin it, put it back in to tendon.

If Rafa only played as much as Venus then he probably would never have needed blood-spinning. But the fact is, Serena/Venus have both complained of knee and wrist tendonitis since the 20th century. And 2001 was a great example when I watched Venus struggle to jump and serving regular double-faults in her 6-1 6-1 loss vs Hingis at the AO.

Michael Jordan also had tendonitis his entire career, he played in pain and rarely missed a game. Like Rafa he used painkillers when required. It only became a debilitating situation when he was 39 years old and forced him to miss 22 games. However the following season at age 40 he played all 82 games (and 37 minutes per game). This was with the Washington Wizards.

Why do you call a fact 'conjecture'? Do your research and you'd understand what's going on for a change.

 

[CMM]

..take blood out of a tendon..

STFU please.

 

[nadal_slam_king]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2009/06/28/2009-06-28_xray_vision.html

Recently, platelet rich plasma (PRP) has been used in some cases. This involves drawing the patient's blood and spinning it on a centrifuge to isolate the growth factors responsible for the healing process. These growth factors are then injected into the site of the tendinitis to enhance the own healing process. Though it is a newer treatment option, we have had a good degree of success using PRP so far. When all conservative measures fail, surgery can be a successful option. Surgery focuses on excision of the damaged portions of the tendon to relieve the inflammation and stimulate a healing response.

There you go dummies. Do your own research next time.

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

You know the treatment by now surely. Rafa's doctor just explained it all in an interview. It's blood-spinning, take blood out of a tendon, spin it, put it back in. If you take it out of anything else then it's illegal. Has to be from a tendon according to the rules. I've known this since last year.

If Rafa only played as much as Venus then he probably would never have needed blood-spinning. But the fact is, Serena/Venus have both complained of knee and wrist tendonitis since the 20th century. And 2001 was a great example when I watched Venus struggle to jump and serving regular double-faults in her 6-1 6-1 loss vs Hingis at the AO.

Michael Jordan also had tendonitis his entire career, he played in pain and rarely missed a game. Like Rafa he used painkillers when required. It only became a debilitating situation when he was 39 years old and forced him to miss 22 games. However the following season at age 40 he played all 82 games (and 37 minutes per game). This was with the Washington Wizards.

Why do you call a fact 'conjecture'? Do your research and you'd understand what's going on for a change.

I know all about PRP, and as CMM says, the blood is not drawn from the tendon. For someone that's known this since last year, you're way off the mark. It's obvious you know nothing about PRP.

Every new post, you introduce something else. Here you've said Nadal uses painkillers, where did this come from? I thought you said he 'played through pain'.
Now you brought up Michael Jordan, do you expect me to research him to prove your point?

 

[ivan_the_terrible]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2009/06/28/2009-06-28_xray_vision.html


There you go dummies. Do your own research next time.

So now it's 'dummies'? Who's the dummy that said blood is drawn from the tendon?

If you did your research, you will that PRP has been around for over 10 years and is unproven. It only recently became famous when some athletes started trying it out. It is unproven as a treatment for tendinitis, that's why you will only find obscure doctors on even more obscure websites shilling it as 'revolutionary'.

If you're into this type of thing, I will post a link to story about baseball players all wearing a titanium 'necklace' that originated in Japan. The players swear it helps them perform better. It reportedly " can help improve circulation and reduce muscle stress." Search for Phiten, if you don't believe me.