Pat Dougherty, aka The Serve Doctor, is a big advocate of chest up. Watch Mac and Fed serve below and you'll see their chest is facing up when their toss arm is fully extended upward. From there, the hitting motion is very much across the chest as they swing up. Also, notice how the shoulders are tilted at contact and the hitting arm is really just a little above the "shoulder thru shoulder" angle. In other words, they aren't forcing the hitting arm to go straight up from the hitting shoulder. It almost looks like a sidearm throwing motion. OK, the hitting arm is slightly above the shoulder angle so it isn't a pure side arm motion but it's close. I think this helps with power, consistency and health as you are using the chest muscles as well as the shoulders and you are not pinching the rotator cuff by forcing the arm up in a steep angle relative to the shoulders. Mac is an old man in the video and he's still getting into this good position. I've seen video of him when he was younger and he leans back even more, at times looking like he defies gravity with his knee bend. Obviously, you want to get the chest up with a bend from the knees and not an extreme arch of the back. Thoughts? Agree or disagree?
Chest Up On The Serve?
- Thread starter TennisCJC
- Start date
10sbeast888
Professional
theory is correct of course, but what are you trying to say here
I'm trying to say, we should work on getting our chest up and use a throwing action across the chest without the hitting arm getting high above the shoulder angle. Do you already do those things?theory is correct of course, but what are you trying to say here
10sbeast888
Professional
not saying this is the way to go but it didn't stop her from competing on the tour... although it was a bit of a handicap.
the theory is correct of course... but tennis is such a unnatural sport, human beings are not built to hit a tennis serve. you need good knee/core strength to chest up like that.
I am guessing the medium TT player is a weak 4.0, say 35 yo... that means many simply cannot get to that position...
rotation is rotation... there is nothing wrong per se to do shoulder around shoulder (instead of over).
many past pros like Cash and Wilander to some extent don't have that much of chest up.
Takao Suzuki also has some vids about serving without chest up.
10sbeast888
Professional
and here is a great model for the sake of tennis longevity.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
You bring up an important point regarding getting into the chest facing up position.
Some people may have physical limitations due to injury, age, range-of-motion, etc.
They should still be able to have their chest face up somewhat, though, even if they have to stay on the ground and don't explode up and propel their body into the air at contact.
The coach is still getting slightly chest up in his demonstration serves and he is also tossing pretty far to the outside. Tossing to his L since he is a lefty or the the R for a righty, means you don't have to bend as much at the knee to get the chest up for a slice. If you want a top/slice with the ball toss less to the outside, it would be better to get a bit more chest up.
I agree. If you are older or have physical limits, then you shouldn't try to get into the McEnroe extreme chest up position, but I think most everyone can get a bit chest up. You also don't need to explode off the ground, instead you could use a serve where you keep the front foot grounded and simply step up and in to contact. It would be good to not just step in or around if possible and instead step up and in as the upward energy will give you more topspin and a higher contact point.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
NOT AN INSTRUCTION - BECOME AWARE OF SAFETY ISSUES WITH ADVANCED TECHNIQUES LIKE SPINAL ENGINE
For maybe 40-50 years I heard the tennis instruction 'Chest Up' for the serve. Like most other 2 or 3 word tennis instructions - IT IS NOT AN INSTRUCTION AND WILL BE MISLEADING - if that is all you know.
I finally studied chest up in a thread and learned about Thoracic Extension and the tennis serve. Videos are crystal clear about what is going on. Jump triggers Thoracic Extension....
Time "0" milliseconds is impact. ISR timing - start to impact - shows by elbow shadows.
To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen, use the period & comma keys. (Single frame not available on phone.)
Recently, I learned a bit about Spinal Engine, new to me, and can see that Thoracic Extension and Spinal Engine are closely related and literally connected, but it's complicated........with a lot to learn.
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Spinal Engine posts start about half way through this long thread. There are many references to Spinal Engine in general for other athletics and sports. For SE and the tennis serve, see Sabalenka's coach, Gavin MacMillan, in Youtube interviews. Put captions on and listen very carefully.
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
I can't identify Spinal Engine yet in ATP tennis serve videos, partly because the shirt blocks seeing the spine. No advice here but be aware of Spinal Engine and its safety issues. I am trying to find information about SE from those that know. Gavin MacMillan, Sabelenka's serve coach, has information on SE and the serve.
For maybe 40-50 years I heard the tennis instruction 'Chest Up' for the serve. Like most other 2 or 3 word tennis instructions - IT IS NOT AN INSTRUCTION AND WILL BE MISLEADING - if that is all you know.
I finally studied chest up in a thread and learned about Thoracic Extension and the tennis serve. Videos are crystal clear about what is going on. Jump triggers Thoracic Extension....
Time "0" milliseconds is impact. ISR timing - start to impact - shows by elbow shadows.
Recently, I learned a bit about Spinal Engine, new to me, and can see that Thoracic Extension and Spinal Engine are closely related and literally connected, but it's complicated........with a lot to learn.
Thoracic Extension of the Spine and the Serve
WARNING - How your spine is used during the serve can risk injury. Many backs are not capable of much Thoracic Extension. ? http://www.racquetfit.com/articles/Screening/if_you_can%27t_extend_from_your_thoracic_spine_you%27re_squandering_power_and_inviting_injury The extension of the...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Spinal Engine posts start about half way through this long thread. There are many references to Spinal Engine in general for other athletics and sports. For SE and the tennis serve, see Sabalenka's coach, Gavin MacMillan, in Youtube interviews. Put captions on and listen very carefully.
The Tennis Serve - What's True?
This serve video completely misses the significant part played by internal shoulder rotation (ISR) during the serve, as do most other serve instructional videos. Why is that? Is this because the most significant joint motion - Internal Shoulder Rotation - is widely misidentified as forearm...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
I can't identify Spinal Engine yet in ATP tennis serve videos, partly because the shirt blocks seeing the spine. No advice here but be aware of Spinal Engine and its safety issues. I am trying to find information about SE from those that know. Gavin MacMillan, Sabelenka's serve coach, has information on SE and the serve.
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I agree. I also think if you visualize throwing the racket up and to the right of contact, it will help you get in the proper position.
I mentioned in the first post that you don't want to think of it as arching the back. Note, Federer in the 1st post has a very straight back. If you draw a line from his knees to his shoulders, it would be nearly straight. You say "chest up" is "NOT AN INSTRUCTION". But, many good coaches use it as an instruction. I actually prefer simple visualizations and concepts versus scientific biomechanics explanations. It's fine to understand and study the biomechanics but I think you need to be able to explain it so anyone can understand it.
If you don't open your shoulders a bit, it is also very bad for your shoulders as you have to hit through the back of your shoulders instead of across the chest. Pat Dougherty has a video on this and mentions that a few years ago there were a lot of squat and hit servers on WTA and a few on ATP. They lacked power and Sharapova destroyed her shoulder with the squat and swat approach.
Finally, it would be very difficult to get a kick or top/slice spin without opening the chest. You could toss out to the far right and hit a pure slice but getting a bit of topspin on the serve requires you to toss more toward 12 o'clock and you need to be open to have a nice swing to that contact point.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Federer's knees are still bent so he has not jumped yet. Thoracic Extension is caused by the jump. See the video I posted in post #12 and single frame through it.
I don't know what "open the shoulders" means. Get a video and find it in the video. The video frame can be identified, for example, when the video time changes from 9 to 10 seconds and 14 frames, you can see the 'open shoulder'. I would then go to the frame of change 9 to 10 seconds and then count off 14 single frames and see the same frame as you.
Usually the body tilts are considerable and change a lot. You need videos to describe body motions, words are not up to the job.
There is some discussions of posts of Samparas's serve in thread The Tennis Serve - What's True? They show how the uppermost body is turning especially well.
1) There is the high level serving technique in the ATP. You have videos available and it has been well studied. The techniques have a safety record. The technique consists of a set of specific sub-motions - always including ISR - that are very similar for all ATP players. There are some differences of course.
2) If we try to find a second serving technique, there is the Waiter's Tray with its limited performance. It is used by more than 60% of active tennis players.
3) Is there a third serving technique that you know of?
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Curious
G.O.A.T.
@TennisCJC
I guess some back arching (thoracic or lumbar- the latter not quite healthy ) can add to ‘chest up’ but it’s mainly due to knee bend and torso coil basically pulling the hitting shoulder back and down, isn’t it? That’s what I’m feeling on my serve. Some take it to the extreme though!
I guess some back arching (thoracic or lumbar- the latter not quite healthy ) can add to ‘chest up’ but it’s mainly due to knee bend and torso coil basically pulling the hitting shoulder back and down, isn’t it? That’s what I’m feeling on my serve. Some take it to the extreme though!
Yes, there is a bit of back arch but you want it to be from the knees as in your photo.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
I agree with this, although I don't personally think about the chest at all and have other cues I focus on. And this is why each player is different, so figuring out what works isn't always the same. I think potty squat was already referenced somewhere in the thread but here is an example of what to try and avoid, and this is a good junior serve:
A few other common mistakes listed in that video also (like making contact on the way down).
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
No, the inertia of head, shoulders, shoulder girdle are tilted back, when the legs thrust and the mass mentioned tilts farther back. Maybe some other things are going on. ? I stopped the video at the point that the legs were about to jump and labeled it Start Leg Jump. Notice the body goes up but back bends with Thoracic Extension and rises less than the rest of the body. In other words the body was arranged so that the jump would bend the back back. But perhaps more important the uppermost body turns now the hitting arm goes forward as shown for the Sampras video discussed in the thread The Tennis Serve - What's True? That forward motion adds pace, and causes the hitting shoulder to rise and the tossing shoulder comes down. The old 'shoulder-over-shoulder' but from a different camera angle.
See Sampras video as discussed.
The Tennis Serve - What's True?
I observe the line between the 2 shoulders and the line between the 2 hips. I imagine how those 2 lines would look if viewed from above. Those lines would appear as the 'separation angle', separation between the shoulders and hips. The separation angle indicates degree of twisting in the...
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