Bartelby
Bionic Poster
People said the same about Japan. And in the nineties, American politicians were smashing Japanese goods with sledgehammers. The paranoia has merely shifted east.
China Shenanigans: If this does not make the ATP/WTA to make changes, nothing will
- Thread starter Lleytonstation
- Start date
Clay lover
Legend
I'll be the first to speak out against the political system but why are we blaming player tantrums and the odd uncivilized fan on China lol. Players are tired, tensions are high, fans could be inconsiderate - that could happen anywhere. Unprofessional ball kids? The ATP could reflect that to the tournament officials and get them to change it - but again the poor training might not be down to a "China" problem, just the officials not doing a good enough job.
If you're blaming the schedule and the timing for players being exhausted and angry maybe you have a point.
The true issues I can think of that are more China-related would be the level of fan engagement, the ridiculous exclusivity for their own people and for the rich, and the smog. Last time I went to Shanghai for the tourney the sky was grey AF, never blue. "Foreigners", including me who's from HK (we're a special region but STILL CHINA), had to buy tickets at the diagonal corners because they had a separate domestic system for their own people (I wrote to the tournament the next year and they were basically like "deal with it"). If you can notice from the live broadcast there's a HUGE section for couches and stuff for the officials and big corporations which just reeks of elitism, but of course a lot of these seats and maybe the more premium seats are empty because these people aren't truly into tennis. So you're essentially wasting lots of stadium space for corporate/political interests whereas the real fans get kept out.
The other time I went to Rogers Cup in Canada and man things were so much more normal - just very small sections at the side for corporate sponsors I think, the most ideal seats behind either baseline are open for public and international purchase, and the vibe was overall much more tennis and fan-oriented.
If you're blaming the schedule and the timing for players being exhausted and angry maybe you have a point.
The true issues I can think of that are more China-related would be the level of fan engagement, the ridiculous exclusivity for their own people and for the rich, and the smog. Last time I went to Shanghai for the tourney the sky was grey AF, never blue. "Foreigners", including me who's from HK (we're a special region but STILL CHINA), had to buy tickets at the diagonal corners because they had a separate domestic system for their own people (I wrote to the tournament the next year and they were basically like "deal with it"). If you can notice from the live broadcast there's a HUGE section for couches and stuff for the officials and big corporations which just reeks of elitism, but of course a lot of these seats and maybe the more premium seats are empty because these people aren't truly into tennis. So you're essentially wasting lots of stadium space for corporate/political interests whereas the real fans get kept out.
The other time I went to Rogers Cup in Canada and man things were so much more normal - just very small sections at the side for corporate sponsors I think, the most ideal seats behind either baseline are open for public and international purchase, and the vibe was overall much more tennis and fan-oriented.
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We would pay more but well worth it.
Clay lover
Legend
Japanese and Chinese working conditions and QC are not comparable lol. I'd say the paranoia for Chinese goods is a lot more justified than for Japanese goods if your so-called paranoia for Japanese goods really existed
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Right…because Chinese and Japanese working conditions are even remotely comparable.
Hey just out of curiosity how much does a decent seat cost over there?
Clay lover
Legend
I don't know about the more expensive ones or the ones with the better locations available only to nationals - I got Category B seats which were RMB780 each, meaning 100 USD. They were pretty high up but not the highest, and as I said in a corner rather than directly behind the players
Wow. Didnt know they would cost so much over there.
Who have you seen play this year?
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
The paranoia against Japan did indeed exist as any history book will tell you. And harsh working conditions exist in Japan as well, but they too farmed the worst of it out to China.
And then China farmed them out to Indo-China.
And then China farmed them out to Indo-China.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
If you were capable of reading, it would have been clear to you that I wasn't writing about working conditions.
I was talking about when Japanese export earnings were so high that they were buying American companies with their spare change.
I was talking about when Japanese export earnings were so high that they were buying American companies with their spare change.
Clay lover
Legend
This was in 2016 lol. I watched the Djoko-Bautista Agut and the Murray-Simon semis that year.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
He's obviously not comparing Japan and China as they are now, but Japan of decades ago
Working conditions and wages have actually improved too much in China for some industries, which is why a lot of companies have moved to countries like Vietnam or Indonesia for cheaper manufacturing. And so the cycle continues...
roysid
Legend
Is it only ATP or both WTA and ATP. Note that post grand slams , nobody else provide that much prize money in tournaments.What a fiasco. Absolute disasterclass all around. So many major incidents on and off the court. The players dont want to be there, fans seem to not care either as many stadiums completely empty.
Either the players are lashing out or it is time to move tennis out of China. Either way, this whole week has been an embarrassment for tennis and China.
Like I said before, just end the tour after USO except for exhos and 250's and below.
And this is the available month in calendar for eastern Asia swing i.e China, Japan, Korea
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
I disagree.
The Alcaraz v Sinner Beijing final was one of the best matches i've seen this year.
Just because a bunch of men can't control their anger and a woman does a racist post doesn't make this leg of the tour any less important.
The Alcaraz v Sinner Beijing final was one of the best matches i've seen this year.
Just because a bunch of men can't control their anger and a woman does a racist post doesn't make this leg of the tour any less important.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Now now, there’s no need for petty insults. You’re more than welcome to continue simping for the CCP that has committed more human rights violations than there are digits of pi. You do you Bart
LiamMiguel
Semi-Pro
I thought it was just me at first. China has to be paying both tours a crap load of money. I hate watching Chinese-based tournaments. Such a bore and a waste of my time. I wouldn’t be surprised if they pay top guys good appearance fees either. I usually won’t watch in Asia (other than Tokyo) and wait until they’re back for the European indoor schedule.
I’m biased as I’m Filipino but they should totally put a tournament in Manila. When they had IPTL there, the place was packed every time and the crowd was out of their minds. Granted the best guys in the world were there but they love sports in the Philippines, they’ll get hype for anything.
I’m biased as I’m Filipino but they should totally put a tournament in Manila. When they had IPTL there, the place was packed every time and the crowd was out of their minds. Granted the best guys in the world were there but they love sports in the Philippines, they’ll get hype for anything.
The answer regarding why have tournaments in China is obvious, so you could your question or thesis is either stupid or ignorant.
In terms of the atmosphere. From what I saw on public videos on youtube and highlights from China Open it was good. Watch what the vlog, I was suprised how passionate some fans were for WTA players. Shanghai smaller crowds on centre court, obviously not the best sign but let's see in the final. Maybe better to be informed why there are less crowds, maybe there is another reason for it. I would think tennis is quite popular in China.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
What makes it a bore and waste of time? Simply because of the country it's in?
I'm not understanding this hatred towards Chinese tournaments, i've seen some fantastic matches from the Sinner Alcaraz Beijing final to the Sabalenka match Putintseva match yesterday.
If the match was played in another country would it still be a bore and a waste of time? If the answer is no, then you just have an issue with China...
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
And I (and many others in this thread) obviously were. Bart has an obsessive need to defend China every chance he gets. There’s still a massive gulf in the working conditions of Japan vs China. To pretend otherwise is nonsensical.
I dont know what the reason is. It's apparently not popular enough for people who live some of the biggest cities on planet earth to bother going. Look I dont really care that much you can defend this im giving you my opinion that it looks like garbage. Apparently there are people here who see the same thing.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
That is true that the working conditions are much better in Japan but I think the working conditions might be getting better in China compared to the United States!
I was reading yesterday about how a Tennessee company forced it's workers to work during the recent hurricane and it killed several people.
Let's not act like the United States isn't a deplorable mess with how it treats it's workers with a disgusting minimum wage and relying on tipping culture.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
They aren’t.That is true that the working conditions are much better in Japan but I think the working conditions might be getting better in China compared to the United States!
I was reading yesterday about how a company forced it's workers to work during a hurricane and it killed several people.
Let's not act like the United States isn't a deplorable mess with how it treats it's workers with a disgusting minimum wage and relying on tipping culture.
Yea Aussie this is a really dumb statement from you. Good lord.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Oh sorry, was I wrong? Did the CEO not stop the workers from evacuating and several died in the recent hurricane in the United States?
Is the minimum wage and working conditions in the United States awful? I also remember reading how Amazon workers have to pee in bottles because they are too scared to take breaks.
Great culture, great country, great conditions. No?
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Agreed. I'd take the so called smaller Chinese crowd than the disgusting rowdiness and drunk US crowd that just walk around during points. As someone else said, the China Open was far better than the US Open.
RSJfan
Legend
2024 population:
Shanghai approx. 30 million
NYC approx. 8 million
Lincoln Nebraska approx. 300,000
The entire country of Iceland approx. 400,000
Should move the Asian events to Iceland and Lincoln Nebraska and expect bigger crowd turnouts.
You got something against the USA man. LOL. You're always ragging on it. Get some help. If you think Chinese working conditions are in anyway close to the the states, you're either completely ignorant or a troll. Anyway enough of your nonsense blocked. I have noticed you do this before and it's tiresome.
RSJfan
Legend
Lady, you’re confusing the USO crowd with the AO crowd insofar as rowdiness and inebriation are concerned.
Yea thats all im saying. These are some of the biggest metro areas in the world! For gods sake Indian wells is out in the middle of the desert and brings in 5 times more people.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
You didn't tell me what I said that was wrong though, if I said something incorrect i'm all for being corrected. Did Amazon workers not feel pressured to not take toilet breaks? And did the CEO of a company not force workers to work through the hurricane and several died? If I was wrong i'll correct myself and say USA working conditions are much better than I thought!
Sad that you've decided to block me for posting facts. I liked you as a poster too.
RSJfan
Legend
Definitely has issues that have nothing to do with the US but are projected. Their knowledge of the US appears to be based on TV shows and ”I read...”
Sounds like Trump. 
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Definitely has issues that have nothing to do with the US but are projected. Their knowledge of the US appears to be based on TV shows and ”I read...”
Delivery Drivers Sue Amazon For Being Forced To Pee In Bottles
The Amazon workers’ claims come roughly four years after the first allegations that employees weren’t given time to use restrooms.
www.forbes.com
Tennessee plastics factory staff killed in Hurricane Helene reportedly told not to evacuate
One worker said Impact Plastics managers would not let employees leave, which company denies
www.theguardian.com
If you're going to come for me, at least be correct. Everything I said was truthful.
Don't act like the working conditions in the United States are the greatest in the world when the national minimum wage an hour is $7.25 and workers are actually peeing in bottles or literally dying because the CEO won't let them evacuate.
Australia's minimum wage is $24.10 an hour by the way.
Yea "I read" thats always nice. And the funny thing is hes as far away from Trump as possible. But he talks the same way. I guess the circle connects.Definitely has issues that have nothing to do with the US but are projected. Their knowledge of the US appears to be based on TV shows and ”I read...”
I mean I have traveled a bit. Never been to Australia. But knowing a little bit and having a wife who's from Europe, I understand how people stereotype. But if I was interested in the daily goings on in Australia which I am sure is a perfectly fine place, however I would bet a lot of money that they have idiots in their country who dont do the right thing and business owners who are greedy and got people killed. Or other idiotic things the Aussies have done. But I wouldn't stereotype and entire people cause of that.
People say oh but your doing that about china. No I am just wondering why a tournament, in a metro area 4 times the size of NYC draws like 75 people to watch a match. I think thats a decent question.
RSJfan
Legend
Our national min wage is very low and you have a lot of issues. The two are not mutually exclusive.Delivery Drivers Sue Amazon For Being Forced To Pee In Bottles
The Amazon workers’ claims come roughly four years after the first allegations that employees weren’t given time to use restrooms.
Tennessee plastics factory staff killed in Hurricane Helene reportedly told not to evacuate
One worker said Impact Plastics managers would not let employees leave, which company denies
If you're going to come for me, at least be correct. Everything I said was truthful.
Don't act like the working conditions in the United States are the greatest in the world when the national minimum wage an hour is $7.25.
Australia is $24.10 an hour by the way.
I’m not reading random sensationalist articles. It’s a big county. There is a lot going on. For example, the mayor of my city and many of his top aides have been indicted and hopefully will all be going to jail. 
We also have a stand-up comedian running for POTUS for the 3rd time. We like to be entertained.I actually work in this industry so I should know don’t you think?
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
So what I said was all correct then? Got it.Our national min wage is very low and you have a lot of issues.
Not sure why you're targeting me then for posting facts... Seems a bit rude to bully me by posting that I have issues when I didn't post anything incorrect.
RSJfan
Legend
TTW is not the best place to work out your issues. Good luck.
ANZ’s involvement in financing land grabs in Cambodia, BHP’s role in the Samarco dam disaster in Brazil and Broadspectrum and Wilson Security’s responsibility for alleged sexual assaults on refugee women and children held in offshore detention on Nauru.
A few Australian companies that have a less than stellar reputation.
You are right and all countries have a dark side.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Thanks babe you too. Next time have your facts straight about the state of the USA before trying to bully people here
Bye bye.In my experience that is a false but common perception of Chinese manufacturing. I tend to think their salaries are pretty decent and the working conditions are regulated by the state and are very safe and healthy. The reason for the competitive pricing is first of all a government policy with subsidies to the manufacturers in order to create a monopoly on manufacturing goods to China, and secondly because of very reasonable profit margins compared to other parts of the world where manufacturers are much more greedy. However, I believe the Chinese government has significantly reduced or totally eliminated the subsidies which makes China less competitive than in the past.
Purely from a tennis viewing perspective, I thought that the traditional post-US Open European indoor season which lasted until the end of the 00s, was a 'jewel in the crown' on the WTA tour.
There was so much great tennis and pretty well attended tournaments. Many players seemed to save their absolute best tennis for that time of the year and / or really come alive at those events, whether it was Hingis, Davenport, Henin, Clijsters, Myskina, Dokic, Vaidisova, Schnyder, Golovin etc.
A disproportionate number of the best matches of the year seemed to take place during those tournaments. I've always thought that a reasonably fast indoor court, was the absolute optimum setting for women's tennis, whether it was watching Evert vs. Goolagong in the big US indoor events in the 70s, Clijsters vs. Mauresmo in the European indoor events in the 00s etc.
However of course money talks. Especially as a result of the financial crisis, many of the European indoor event license holders and more crucially their sponsors decided to essentially stop funding women's tennis, and China / Chinese tournaments basically stepped in to fill the gap. Clearly the WTA to a far greater extent than the ATP in comparison, had to desperately seek to tap into the huge and lucrative Chinese market, to prevent a a noticeable reduction in tournaments throughout the year (and opportunities for as many players as possible to actually play at tour level and make a good living) or at least a sharp reduction in prize money (which clearly the players would have been deeply unhappy with).
I was unhappy at things such as Tokyo being downgraded in favour of Wuhan though.
The ATP did maintain a much better balance than the WTA of both tapping into the Chinese market while maintaining events in traditional markets, but the WTA had a much weaker hand in comparison and men's European indoor events were on a much safer footing than the women's equivalents.
There was so much great tennis and pretty well attended tournaments. Many players seemed to save their absolute best tennis for that time of the year and / or really come alive at those events, whether it was Hingis, Davenport, Henin, Clijsters, Myskina, Dokic, Vaidisova, Schnyder, Golovin etc.
A disproportionate number of the best matches of the year seemed to take place during those tournaments. I've always thought that a reasonably fast indoor court, was the absolute optimum setting for women's tennis, whether it was watching Evert vs. Goolagong in the big US indoor events in the 70s, Clijsters vs. Mauresmo in the European indoor events in the 00s etc.
However of course money talks. Especially as a result of the financial crisis, many of the European indoor event license holders and more crucially their sponsors decided to essentially stop funding women's tennis, and China / Chinese tournaments basically stepped in to fill the gap. Clearly the WTA to a far greater extent than the ATP in comparison, had to desperately seek to tap into the huge and lucrative Chinese market, to prevent a a noticeable reduction in tournaments throughout the year (and opportunities for as many players as possible to actually play at tour level and make a good living) or at least a sharp reduction in prize money (which clearly the players would have been deeply unhappy with).
I was unhappy at things such as Tokyo being downgraded in favour of Wuhan though.
The ATP did maintain a much better balance than the WTA of both tapping into the Chinese market while maintaining events in traditional markets, but the WTA had a much weaker hand in comparison and men's European indoor events were on a much safer footing than the women's equivalents.
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Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Some how, the people behind the touring schedule in top spin 2k25 have made their way to the ATP tour.
Bill Lobsalot
Hall of Fame
Anecdotal in a country of 340 million people.
LiamMiguel
Semi-Pro
No not at all. It’s a bore because 90% of the matches have 0 atmosphere. Most of the matches barely have more than a fifth of the venue full and they’re not even that into it. As much as I love tennis, I’ll watch matches for entertainment. When it comes to Sinner-Alcaraz for example, I genuinely enjoyed their games clashing so it’s different and that was one of the better matches I’ve seen all year. But when it’s two other guys playing, there’s just a lack of something else there when they play in a place where people don’t seem as interested.
It’s not a matter of country. Another good example of this was the New York Open in Nassau that stopped a couple years back. It was near impossible to turn those matches on the TV and just watch as there wasn’t a good atmosphere, and that’s why it shut down anyways because no one wanted to watch it. Same thing with the smaller South American tournaments, like Cordoba or Buenos Aires (I think) before they moved tennis centers. It just tends to happen in more places than others.
Places with great atmospheres would be like Madrid, Acapulco, all the slams and their cities, Miami, anything in Italy, Dubai. There’s some other great places to watch with not many fans but still decent atmosphere like San Diego’s ATP tournament a couple years ago or even Atlanta in person before it ended.
Raiden
Hall of Fame
Exactly.
Selective outrage.
This was the crowd at a slam this year during a match involving then world number one ranked player:
The women's matches have been rather more filled than they used to be in the past — so they have increased actually. Tho that's no doubt partly due to multiple Chinese players going deep. And on the men's side Roger and Rafa are gone. So that was always gonna have effect.
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