China Shenanigans: If this does not make the ATP/WTA to make changes, nothing will

What is goin on?


  • Total voters
    31

pasta

Professional
Schedule
- Have tour wrap up after the US Open with season final tournament in October.
- Have regional 250's in November/December,something like OT for those that want it
- Beijing 500 and Shanghai in January
- Move AO week or two
- Come to NA for Indian Wells and Miami.
- Back to clay in Europe.
- Grass season
- Back to NA for Canada, Cincy and US Open ...

Drop Bercy, Monte Carlo, add grass Masters ...

Make girlfriends/tiktokers mandatory presence in China
 

atatu

Legend
Agreed. I'd take the so called smaller Chinese crowd than the disgusting rowdiness and drunk US crowd that just walk around during points. As someone else said, the China Open was far better than the US Open.
I'm kind of curious about this post, I went to the US Open for the first time this year and didn't see many disgusting rowdy or drunk people. Are the US Open crowds a lot worse that the crowds at the Australian Open ? I also noticed that the most outspoken fans are from other countries. I was at the Tommy Paul - Mel Purcell match when Purcell rage quit and I was sitting next to some guys from Australia who were not happy about that.
 

RSJfan

Professional
I'm kind of curious about this post, I went to the US Open for the first time this year and didn't see many disgusting rowdy or drunk people….
Many rowdy and drunk people — it, it, it doesn’t exist. It doesn’t exist up the boardwalk at the mets let alone the USO crowd. :rolleyes: That lady from Oz lives online hunting down things to be aggrieved about and has never been to the USO. I don’t think she’s ever stepped foot anywhere in the US.
 
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RSJfan

Professional


This was the crowd at a slam this year during a match involving then world number one ranked player:

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Photos showing a sliver of a stadium at a major can be very misleading. It could be substantially filled and/or people are enjoying other matches or walking around the grounds eating/shopping/other activities.
 
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Raiden

Hall of Fame
Photos showing a sliver of a stadium at a major can be very misleading. It could be substantially filled and/or people are enjoying other matches or walking around the grounds eating/shopping/other activities.
No it's not misleading. I didn't crop the photo. It's a full image out of a news item. There really was a shortage of crowd at that tournament. There are multiple reports about it. The fact that you failed to address that and instead went on a tangent towards imaginary possibilities about that photo is possibly a fake cropped image of an otherwise full crowd scenery shows what an empty bad-faith actor you are and what a selective BS this thread is. No facts just imaginary conclusions — unserious thread.
 

LiamMiguel

Semi-Pro
Schedule
- Have tour wrap up after the US Open with season final tournament in October.
- Have regional 250's in November/December,something like OT for those that want it
- Beijing 500 and Shanghai in January
- Move AO week or two
- Come to NA for Indian Wells and Miami.
- Back to clay in Europe.
- Grass season
- Back to NA for Canada, Cincy and US Open ...

Drop Bercy, Monte Carlo, add grass Masters ...

Make girlfriends/tiktokers mandatory presence in China
The post season-end tournaments honestly seem like a decent thing to do. It's what the PGA Tour does with their FedEx Fall format. It would help lower-ranked players that have to push to get into AO to have a chance to prove themselves and get some points. I'd even go for adding some more Challenger 175s after the US Open too. I wouldn't mind if they used those tournaments to also get into untapped markets that pro tennis isn't in or is that big, like South Africa, SE Asia, NE Europe etc.

I say drop Bercy and Shanghai as Masters (maybe put Shanghai to a 500, maybe even a combo event with WTA), add Sydney or Brisbane or even Perth, as a 1000 and add that grass 1000, like upgrading Queens. I wouldn't mind Tokyo becoming a 1000 to replace Shanghai either, early in the season.

At the end of the day, it'll give players a chance to rest if they choose to, which is what most want anyways. It gets rough towards the end of the season.
 

LiamMiguel

Semi-Pro
No it's not misleading. I didn't crop the photo. It's a full image out of a news item. There really was a shortage of crowd at that tournament. There are multiple reports about it. The fact that you failed to address that and instead went on a tangent towards imaginary possibilities about that photo is possibly a fake cropped image of an otherwise full crowd scenery shows what an empty bad-faith actor you are and what a selective BS this thread is. No facts just imaginary conclusions — unserious thread.
Which match was that? I'm curious. I've been on Philippe Chatrier even for night session in the opening rounds where the place was packed (until it turned midnight then people left pretty hastily on weekdays). I couldn't imagine a people not watching a men's no1 player. If it were a women's match, it might be a different story. It isn't uncommon for not many people to watch women's matches especially that late with how late French Open matches start.
 

McEncock

Professional
Like I said the entire thing is a joke. No one is there. Someone tries to trip dimitrov. Some lady tennis player got in trouble for saying she was in wuhan where the virus started they treated her like garbage. Now some other lady is in trouble for making Chinese eyes. Players have tantrums on the court. There are 50 people in the stands. Like these are suppose to be big tournaments? They may as well play in a morgue.
"Lady is in trouble for making Chinese eyes"?
Did you really wrote that? She deformed her face with freaking chopsticks in order to mimick a physical Asian stereotype, and make fun of it.
Get a brain
 

Oval_Solid

Hall of Fame
china is recurrently in an economic recession with mass unemployment
people are blaming the west and japan aswell
so people dont care about tennis
also wilson is a chinese company if you didnt read the news from 5 years ago
 
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InsuranceMan

Hall of Fame
I don’t think I ever watch the swing, but I don’t know that I would watch the swing even if they replaced it with something else. I get a little fatigued after USO and usually I have a break from watching live tennis until after a while I recuperate and regain the appetite in time for sometimes Bercy, always WTF, and occasionally Basel/Vienna. I just feel like it’s a rough spot in the schedule as a viewer on TV. I do support a truncated season but I am wondering that even if they eliminated this swing or made it the lead up right into the year end finals, occurring sometime this month, would we watch it? I feel like others probably have the same issue with me and it just has to do with the nature of the schedule in the sense that it could be arbitrary what you put post-USO pre-YEC and the same phenomenon occurs.

I do think the end of season should have some touch ups though, I’ve spoken before that the YEC should be heightened as an event. It should be the top 16 players in draw format, I can appreciate that current YEC format is something different which is nice to see in a stagnant sport but it’s just not very good. There should be no situation where it is advantageous for players to tank. So I personally would make it a round of 16 draw, and I would have every round be best of five. Increase the prize money, the points maybe but I don’t know how much higher the point distribution could go, and increase the drama a little bit. I don’t think they market it well enough, because sometimes I feel like it might be difficult to market because you have to explain the current model which is weird to do concisely.
 

Bisquick

Rookie
2 further points.

A - think the tennis heads at the atp/eta seeing basketball's popularity in China want a piece of the action. But it must be recognized that for accessibility tennis is not say basketball or soccer/futbol. The premise just doesn’t hold up.

B - the China (or insert any other country that’s being used for their) low wages and the outcry about this - the point is valid but while China does consume some of these manufactured goods - the majority are for export. So sure, you could have hate for China for their cheap labour but- why no hate against the multinational, European, North American based cooperations that seek out this cheap labour?
 

RSJfan

Professional
No it's not misleading. I didn't crop the photo. It's a full image out of a news item. There really was a shortage of crowd at that tournament. There are multiple reports about it. The fact that you failed to address that and instead went on a tangent towards imaginary possibilities about that photo is possibly a fake cropped image of an otherwise full crowd scenery shows what an empty bad-faith actor you are and what a selective BS this thread is. No facts just imaginary conclusions — unserious thread.

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Mainad

Bionic Poster
What a fiasco. Absolute disasterclass all around. So many major incidents on and off the court. The players dont want to be there, fans seem to not care either as many stadiums completely empty.

Either the players are lashing out or it is time to move tennis out of China. Either way, this whole week has been an embarrassment for tennis and China.

Yet, for the first 5 years of its existence, 2009-13, Shanghai was voted by the players ATP Masters 1000 Tournament Of The Year.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Yet, for the first 5 years of its existence, 2009-13, Shanghai was voted by the players ATP Masters 1000 Tournament Of The Year.
Talk about politics. They needed the money and made everyone seem like China was ALL in. They are not. It is not a good look having empty stands. Period.

Or put China in early January and start the swing then. But this needs to end, and it will.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
No not at all. It’s a bore because 90% of the matches have 0 atmosphere. Most of the matches barely have more than a fifth of the venue full and they’re not even that into it. As much as I love tennis, I’ll watch matches for entertainment. When it comes to Sinner-Alcaraz for example, I genuinely enjoyed their games clashing so it’s different and that was one of the better matches I’ve seen all year. But when it’s two other guys playing, there’s just a lack of something else there when they play in a place where people don’t seem as interested.

It’s not a matter of country. Another good example of this was the New York Open in Nassau that stopped a couple years back. It was near impossible to turn those matches on the TV and just watch as there wasn’t a good atmosphere, and that’s why it shut down anyways because no one wanted to watch it. Same thing with the smaller South American tournaments, like Cordoba or Buenos Aires (I think) before they moved tennis centers. It just tends to happen in more places than others.

Places with great atmospheres would be like Madrid, Acapulco, all the slams and their cities, Miami, anything in Italy, Dubai. There’s some other great places to watch with not many fans but still decent atmosphere like San Diego’s ATP tournament a couple years ago or even Atlanta in person before it ended.
Totally agree with you about Nassau. And great point. All we are saying is it looks like garbage. And that New York tournament looked like garbage.
 
Let’s be honest here, tennis tournaments in China were part of an organised government effort to bring international events to the country to prove the new status of China as a world leader. Like many other similar efforts, it seems to have worked for a while until People started to lose interest. It’s also the same case about western fashion and jewellery brand names that are closing down everywhere in China, after a short period of high success. The honeymoon period is over.

https://images.app.goo.gl/2b7ZzLaGDgAQdzsm7

China bros, I don't feel so good...
 

pasta

Professional
Stefanos ... that might not be so bad for China ...
they always had population growth control (which is not aligned with our values) ...
more is not always better
 

pasta

Professional
Thank you for that ... interesting read/research - I will enjoy that reading tonight ...
i like when people come with research findings and then we disect those findings ...
maybe not on a tennis forum but i will take it ;)
 

TennisBro

Professional
So, you'd have the ATP/WTA make changes to affect China but ignore all the issues around the world for what? Hard not to notice the hidden agenda here. So much for our integrity to tennis that's got so many fine young talents coming out of all kinda backgrounds.
 
to be honest the only tournaments worth a hoot to me where I’m invested are the slams and maybe the year end championship(if everyone is healthy enough to play). All the other slams including the masters just don’t seem that important. No one looks at non slam events when choosing greatness really. I don’t remember anyone ever going “oh he has the masters record he’s the best”. The ATP has always done a crappy job the majority of the time even making non slam events seem “important”

The Olympics have some importance now but that’s because Nadal made it important and people were really tuning in to see if djoker finally wins it
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
You want to get rid of all events for all sports that have empty stands? Or just some?

If just some, then what are the additional criteria being used to make the decision?
Come on. Tiafoe match had zero people there at a masters. Masters tourneys with almost no fans is bad.

It isn't great for us on TV either. The players clearly have some issues when playing in China. Too many issues for it to be a fluke.

But all that aside, the number one reason is health and quality. The players needs more rest. Move these same tourneys to January before AO. It makes sense.
 

ballamaz

Rookie
Many rowdy and drunk people — it, it, it doesn’t exist. It doesn’t exist up the boardwalk at the mets let alone the USO crowd. :rolleyes: That lady from Oz lives online hunting down things to be aggrieved about and has never been to the USO. I don’t think she’s ever stepped foot anywhere in the US.


Alcohol not required.

The aggression & violence is a function of your wild west history.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Just to clarify. If your critical of tournaments that doesn't mean your critical of CHINA. People get bent here. The OP was not critical of China. He was just stating that the tournaments look like crap. And another poster pointed out that a USA tournament in NYC looked like crap he was right on that. So people bringing in all that we are being anti china stuff can stuff it themselves.
 

Arak

Legend
I mean China literally had a one child policy less than a decade ago…
While the policy was in place, people were doing everything they could to circumvent it. Now that the government is encouraging/begging people to have children, there isn’t much cooperation from the public. To be fair, this reluctance is very understandable. China is still a very crowded place. You just have to look at videos from spring breaks or summer vacations where millions of people are travelling simultaneously or going to the beach to realise the extent of the problem. Add to that, young couples actually want to live and enjoy their lives, especially in the cities where the opportunities and temptations for money spending are too high. They simply do not have budgets for kids.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Just to clarify. If your critical of tournaments that doesn't mean your critical of CHINA. People get bent here. The OP was not critical of China. He was just stating that the tournaments look like crap. And another poster pointed out that a USA tournament in NYC looked like crap he was right on that. So people bringing in all that we are being anti china stuff can stuff it themselves.
Yeah, I regret making this thread. I just do not see things through a political lens so I didn't expect it to take political turn.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
Come on. Tiafoe match had zero people there at a masters. Masters tourneys with almost no fans is bad.
Do you want to do the same with WTA tournaments? Lots of empty seats. WNBA? LPGA? MLB baseball? Hardly anyone in the stands at lots of games.

I’m just not understanding why this one tournament bothers you so much?
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
While the policy was in place, people were doing everything they could to circumvent it. Now that the government is encouraging/begging people to have children, there isn’t much cooperation from the public. To be fair, this reluctance is very understandable. China is still a very crowded place. You just have to look at videos from spring breaks or summer vacations where millions of people are travelling simultaneously or going to the beach to realise the extent of the problem. Add to that, young couples actually want to live and enjoy their lives, especially in the cities where the opportunities and temptations for money spending are too high. They simply do not have budgets for kids.
And most of these are self inflicted problems caused by the Chinese government.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Do you want to do the same with WTA tournaments? Lots of empty seats. WNBA? LPGA? MLB baseball? Hardly anyone in the stands at lots of games.

I’m just not understanding why this one tournament bothers you so much?
Its a masters in a place that has cities with tens of millions of people. Come on man. This people saying this is like the WNBA or MLB. Good lord. These cities have over ten million some have over 20 million people. Come on wtf. This is lunacy. MLB drew over 70 million people and sell out basically every playoff game. These are top players going to cities which are many many many times bigger than anything in the western world. And no one is there. LOL.

The rationalization here is ridiculous.
 
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johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
The answer regarding why have tournaments in China is obvious, so you could your question or thesis is either stupid or ignorant.

In terms of the atmosphere. From what I saw on public videos on youtube and highlights from China Open it was good. Watch what the vlog, I was suprised how passionate some fans were for WTA players. Shanghai smaller crowds on centre court, obviously not the best sign but let's see in the final. Maybe better to be informed why there are less crowds, maybe there is another reason for it. I would think tennis is quite popular in China.
wta players got much more enthusiasm from not very knowledgeable tennis fans in China. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. Posters here almost pretend WTA doesn't exist.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Do you want to do the same with WTA tournaments? Lots of empty seats. WNBA? LPGA? MLB baseball? Hardly anyone in the stands at lots of games.

I’m just not understanding why this one tournament bothers you so much?
I would say let us take a look and compare. I know IW, Cinci, Montreal, and Toronto never have tons of empty seats for the men. Those are the only ones I have been to, but all the others, except maybe Paris seem to fill the stadiums decently well. So, why is this not the case here? By the way, MLB is a terrible comparison considering they play 81 home games and the A's literally had no one coming and lost their teams. Tampa is another team that people think having no fans at their games is a problem.

But this is not the only problem as I have said over and over again. Combine this with the players attitudes and the lack of rest they receive, as well as TV ratings, this does not seem to be working.

For me, and it seems many others, it is not working as a consumer point of view. The players do not seem to be enjoying it much either.
 
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