Choosing sides

[Yehan]

Ok, I am confident I know the rule, but I just want to make sure

Yesterday we played our league match. We won the toss and elected to serve. Went to our side and started the warmup. After the warmup our opponents said they want to select our side (we warmed up in) to receive the serve.

I know this is a common mind game. Doesn't the rules say you have to play on the side you warm up in. Didn't our opponents select a side by default when they moved over to a side to warm up?

 

[bodieq]

Interesting. I don't know. I've played both tournament and league matches in which we did the warm-up and then did the toss afterwards.

But in your situation, why didn't you simply just ask your opponents which side they wanted and have them give you a "verbal" answer, before your warm-up?

 

[merlebo02]

Surely that would not ruin your game plan by switching sides?? What difference does it make, just switch and beat em!!! If them asking to switch sides at the last minute messes with your mind you definitely need to work on your mind game, just saying!!!

 

[Cindysphinx]

I'm surprised you didn't ask which side they wanted. But you know what? I'm with Merlebo. Stuff like that fires me up and makes me want to win more. If there was any disadvantage or advantage to what they did, it affects both teams equally.

 

[athiker]

If I win the toss and elect to serve I always make sure to ask which side they would like.

Bottom line is it really doesn't matter. If they make you look at the sun to serve 1st they will be looking at the sun when serving the second game, same with the wind.

I've never heard anything about warm-up side making a difference. In fact I'd say the majority of the time we warm up before we even do the racquet spin. I guess it makes a bit more sense to do it before though now that I think of it.

Regardless, simply verbally confirm side selection at the same time who serves first is determined to eliminate any issues. The coin toss is to determine who decides both the serve and court side, not just the serve so both decisions should be made clear then.

The "winner" can choose one of the following: serve or receive, which side they would like first, defer the first decision to the opponent which then makes it as if they won the toss (except they can't defer the decision back to you!).

Here is a useful link with many FAQs about the "coin toss": http://www.usta.com/USTA/Global/Improve_Your_Game/Archive/The_Final_Word/Serving_and_Receivng/Winning_the_toss.aspx

 

[larry10s]

Ok, I am confident I know the rule, but I just want to make sure

Yesterday we played our league match. We won the toss and elected to serve. Went to our side and started the warmup. After the warmup our opponents said they want to select our side (we warmed up in) to receive the serve.

I know this is a common mind game. Doesn't the rules say you have to play on the side you warm up in. Didn't our opponents select a side by default when they moved over to a side to warm up?

yes they implied they wanted the side they warmed up on

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

yes they implied they wanted the side they warmed up on

No good .... there are no implications in tennis and there is no rule about warming up on the intended side to start the match. Just because that is frequently what happens does not mean it has to happen that way.

The mistake was in not defining where they would start after you decided to serve. I can find no rule that says they have to chose right away and further more that they need to then warm up on the same side. However, if you had asked them which side they wanted to begin after choosing serve there would have been no problem.

I agree with the previous posters that as soon as someone tries to play these mind games ... it is a pretty clear indication that their game is lacking and that you need to go out and dominate.

 

[Munj]

No good .... there are no implications in tennis and there is no rule about warming up on the intended side to start the match. Just because that is frequently what happens does not mean it has to happen that way.

The Code states:

9. CHOICE OF ENDS & SERVICE
The choice of ends and the choice to be server or receiver in the first game
shall be decided by toss before the warm-up starts.

 

[mikeler]

Only once has this happened to me, but I had a guy do the toss before we warmed up. He won and chose to serve and asked me to choose the side. So I did and then I warmed up on the side I had chosen. Either way, not a big deal.

 

[spot]

I think this is likely an issue because in the vast majority of cases (at least here in Atlanta) we do the toss after the warmup. Its not in the rules but normally people just end up going to a side to start hitting balls and the spin is done just before play starts. Doing it before the warmup does make a lot more sense but its just not done that way often here. So If the other team is used to selecting their sides just before starting play I could see why they messed this up.

 

[Yehan]

Just to clarify we did do the toss before the warm up. I usually ask "do you want to pick a side", but this time I forgot to.
At least when watching pro matches I've never ever seen where they warm up on one side and then move over to another to start the game. That's probably because the umpire always asks after the toss.

 

[jrod]

The Code states:

9. CHOICE OF ENDS & SERVICE
The choice of ends and the choice to be server or receiver in the first game
shall be decided by toss before the warm-up starts.

Implying that they implicitly chose their side by engaging in the warm up on a specific side.

 

[Yehan]

Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munj View Post
The Code states:

9. CHOICE OF ENDS & SERVICE
The choice of ends and the choice to be server or receiver in the first game
shall be decided by toss before the warm-up starts.

Implying that they implicitly chose their side by engaging in the warm up on a specific side.

I agree with you.

 

[larry10s]

Implying that they implicitly chose their side by engaging in the warm up on a specific side.

....i agree

 

[AR15]

I'm surprised you didn't ask which side they wanted. But you know what? I'm with Merlebo. Stuff like that fires me up and makes me want to win more. If there was any disadvantage or advantage to what they did, it affects both teams equally.

not really.

I often play with a left handed partner. I am the stronger server so I serve first. However, if the sun is very strong, we might opt for him to serve first, so that when we each serve, the sun is at our backs, and not blinding our faces. So, if the other team wins the toss, and elects to serve first, we will choose the side that allows me to serve first with the sun at my back.

 

[Jim A]

I love when people try to bring mind games into sport, if they start with this stuff...they already have doubted their ability to win straight up...I'd rather play with people being loud nearby, music playing, big crowds any day of the week anyways

 

[beernutz]

The Code states:

9. CHOICE OF ENDS & SERVICE
The choice of ends and the choice to be server or receiver in the first game
shall be decided by toss before the warm-up starts.

How dare you bring the rules into this? :shock:
The opposing team did choose a side and they did it explicitly. They did this by unequivocally walking to the side they chose to play on after the toss and before the warm up.

[/case closed imo]

 

[subban]

Ok, I am confident I know the rule, but I just want to make sure

Yesterday we played our league match. We won the toss and elected to serve. Went to our side and started the warmup. After the warmup our opponents said they want to select our side (we warmed up in) to receive the serve.

I know this is a common mind game. Doesn't the rules say you have to play on the side you warm up in. Didn't our opponents select a side by default when they moved over to a side to warm up?

I thought usta rules dictate that loser of toss chooses which side to play on. I really hate serving into the sun, so on a really sunny day in mid afternoon I would rather much prefer to lose the toss and just select which side to play on.

 

[Spokewench]

I thought usta rules dictate that loser of toss chooses which side to play on. I really hate serving into the sun, so on a really sunny day in mid afternoon I would rather much prefer to lose the toss and just select which side to play on.

No, the rule is; if you win the toss, you can either chose to serve; or you can chose the side you want and let the other team serve. So, you don't have to lose the toss in order to give the serve to your opponent and pick sides instead

 

[spot]

Spokewench- In that situation when you win the toss what you want to do is Defer the choice and let the other team choose. Thats the only way you can make sure in doubles to get your preferred side for the player you want to serve first. I always defer in doubles- I don't mind serving into the sun so I'll make the other team's best server serve into the sun as well. Often the opposing team will put their lesser server first just so the guy with the weapon serve won't be affected by the sun.

 

[Pompitous of Love]

When you win the toss...

...you have three choices
1. Choose to either serve or receive
2. Choose either one side or the other
3. Defer the first choice to your opponent(s)
Not that it matters to the OP, but many players don't realize that to choose "not to serve" does not give you the choice of side.

Also, as the Code quote above, this choice should happen before warm up. This only seems to happen in tournament play around here. In League play, we warm up, then toss, go figure.

I totally agree with the above posters that the walking to a particular side after the toss is explicitly "choosing a side". I would have laughed at them when they tried to pull the switch after the warm up.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

The Code states:

9. CHOICE OF ENDS & SERVICE
The choice of ends and the choice to be server or receiver in the first game
shall be decided by toss before the warm-up starts.

But this still does not mean you have to warm up on the side you intend to start at. The mistake was in not making the decision prior to the start of the match.

 

[beernutz]

But this still does not mean you have to warm up on the side you intend to start at. The mistake was in not making the decision prior to the start of the match.

Can you describe a scenario where it wouldn't?

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Can you describe a scenario where it wouldn't?

I am not trying to be disagreeable. I know that in 99.9% of the cases people warm up on the same side they intend to start at. I am only pointing out that it does not state that you must warmup on the same side you intend to start at.

I can think of couple examples where I would prefer to warm up on the other side than what I would intend to start at.

1) This came up in mixed sectional playoffs once. We started our match but rain delayed it. When we were able to resume our match my partner did not want to warm up with the other team because she felt they were purposely not giving her good balls to warm up with. So we hit with each other and the other team hit with each other. One on each side of the net.

2) Suppose prior to beginning the match you hit with your teamates into the wind. After exchanging lineups you have realized you have not hit against the wind and although you have agreed to play a certain side you ask to hit from the other for the brief warm up period.

3) I want to hit serves from the side I will be starting at, but will be serving second.

 

[blakesq]

Nice catch on the rules. I have played USTA for 30 years...and I can't remember ever doing the toss up before warming up (maybe in High School, but I can't remember that far back). We always warm up, then come off the court to towel off, get a drink and do the toss.

The Code states:

9. CHOICE OF ENDS & SERVICE
The choice of ends and the choice to be server or receiver in the first game
shall be decided by toss before the warm-up starts.

 

[Cindysphinx]

not really.

I often play with a left handed partner. I am the stronger server so I serve first. However, if the sun is very strong, we might opt for him to serve first, so that when we each serve, the sun is at our backs, and not blinding our faces. So, if the other team wins the toss, and elects to serve first, we will choose the side that allows me to serve first with the sun at my back.

Yes. And if that is the case, ask your opponents what their choice is.

 

[Munj]

I am not trying to be disagreeable. I know that in 99.9% of the cases people warm up on the same side they intend to start at. I am only pointing out that it does not state that you must warmup on the same side you intend to start at.

What it says is that you "shall" decide which side to play on before the warm-up starts. The word shall means "must". If it were optional it would say "may".

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just think the rule is pretty black & white.

My experience is that most USTA players don't know this rule. I didn't know it until fairly recently.

 

[Delano]

In every USTA match I've played, we've done the warm up, then done the coin toss (racket spin, etc).

The winner of the coin toss can

Choose to server or receive
-or-
Choose side

The loser of the coin toss gets to make the decision that the first team didn't make (ie., if the first team chooses serve, the other team gets to choose side).

Where the teams were playing during the warm up has never been a factor.

I've never seen an actual rule or part of the code that addresses this, but it's never been an issue, fortunately.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

9. CHOICE OF ENDS & SERVICE
The choice of ends and the choice to be server or receiver in the first game
shall be decided by toss before the warm-up starts.

Yes it states the choice of ends in the first game will be decided before warmup. It does not however say that this also includes which side you must (shall) warm up on.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

What it says is that you "shall" decide which side to play on before the warm-up starts. The word shall means "must". If it were optional it would say "may".

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just think the rule is pretty black & white.

My experience is that most USTA players don't know this rule. I didn't know it until fairly recently.

Finally from The Code, Friend at the court, the usta Explicitly says you do not need to warm up on the side you will first play from by stating that partners may warm each other up.

THE WARM-UP [Page 46]
3. Warm-up is not practice. A player should provide the opponent a 5-minute warm-up (ten minutes if there are no ball persons). If a player refuses to warmup the opponent, the player forfeits the right to a warm-up. Some players confuse warm-up and practice. Each player should make a special effort to hit shots directly to the opponent. [sic] (If partners want to warm each other up while their opponents are warming up, they may do so.)

 

[beernutz]

9. CHOICE OF ENDS & SERVICE
The choice of ends and the choice to be server or receiver in the first game
shall be decided by toss before the warm-up starts.

Yes it states the choice of ends in the first game will be decided before warmup. It does not however say that this also includes which side you must (shall) warm up on.

If the team that was able to choose the side for the first game said after the toss, "we want to warm up on this side but we choose to start the first game on that side" it appears to me that would be within the scope of Code rule #9.

Is there another way? I don't see it. Once the warm up starts, that team doesn't get the right to choose a side again imo. Do you feel otherwise because I'm not sure exactly what you are saying is acceptable in your interpretation of the Code?

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

If the team that was able to choose the side for the first game said after the toss, "we want to warm up on this side but we choose to start the first game on that side" it appears to me that would be within the scope of Code rule #9.

Is there another way? I don't see it. Once the warm up starts, that team doesn't get the right to choose a side again imo. Do you feel otherwise because I'm not sure exactly what you are saying is acceptable in your interpretation of the Code?

Well, you asked me to give you a scenerio where this would happen ... I gave you one. Additionally, the code, friend at the court also says if a player feels they are not getting a proper warmup they may elect to switch (mid warm up) and hit with their partner. This would be a scenario where once you start the warm up you can stop and choose a different warm up side.

But this is all I have been saying. Yes it is possible to warm up on one side and start on the other. I have consistently said this was possible, although does not happen often, and that the mistake was in that the niether did the OP ask which side the other team wanted, nor did the other team say what side they wanted on the toss prior to warmup.

I do not believe that simply walking to one side explicitly says "I chose this side" unless it is to start the first game.

 

[Cindysphinx]

The whole thing is pretty funny.

Imagine if the opponent wins the toss. Without a word, they hand you all three balls. Players warm up. They then say, "We won the toss, we elect to serve." Did their handing you all three balls -- the universal sign for "It's your serve" -- mean they were electing to receive?

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

The whole thing is pretty funny.

Imagine if the opponent wins the toss. Without a word, they hand you all three balls. Players warm up. They then say, "We won the toss, we elect to serve." Did their handing you all three balls -- the universal sign for "It's your serve" -- mean they were electing to receive?

Absurd yes ... I agree. Outside the rules yes ... you need to declare before warm up. Have they declared they want to serve ... I think an argument could be made that no they have not.

As far as being the universal sign being "it's your serve" I think this is only true when you flip after the warm up and the next ball struck will be the first serve of the match. Many times I have flipped, lost serve and then taken the new balls to my side to begin. Other times I have given the new balls to my opponent, almost to say "are these ok?". Prior to warm up ... I do not feel that giving or taking the balls necessarily implies anything.

The premise of this thread was asking the question if the OP's opponents did something outside the rules when they warmed up on one side and elected to start on the other. Which I think the rules clearly allow. Just in practice this is very rarely the case. The mistake was in not communicating clearly which side they wanted and not demanding that they do so.

 

[beernutz]

Well, you asked me to give you a scenerio where this would happen ... I gave you one. Additionally, the code, friend at the court also says if a player feels they are not getting a proper warmup they may elect to switch (mid warm up) and hit with their partner. This would be a scenario where once you start the warm up you can stop and choose a different warm up side.

But this is all I have been saying. Yes it is possible to warm up on one side and start on the other. I have consistently said this was possible, although does not happen often, and that the mistake was in that the niether did the OP ask which side the other team wanted, nor did the other team say what side they wanted on the toss prior to warmup.

I do not believe that simply walking to one side explicitly says "I chose this side" unless it is to start the first game.

But the code says the toss and choice of first servers and sides comes BEFORE the warm-up.

See:
USTA Comment 9.1: When should the toss be made?
The toss should be made before the warm-up so that the players can warm-up on the same end from which they play their first game.

If the players in your scenario felt they were getting an improper or inadequate warm-up it could only be AFTER the choice of sides had been made, if they were following the Code.

The USTA somewhat addresses this situation with:
Case 1: Do both players/teams have the right to new choices if the warm-up is stopped and the players leave the court?
Decision: Yes. The result of the original toss stands, but new choices may be made by both players/teams.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

But the code says the toss and choice of first servers and sides comes BEFORE the warm-up.

See:
USTA Comment 9.1: When should the toss be made?
The toss should be made before the warm-up so that the players can warm-up on the same end from which they play their first game.

If the players in your scenario felt they were getting an improper or inadequate warm-up it could only be AFTER the choice of sides had been made, if they were following the Code.

Yes ... first serve and first side choice does need to be made before warm up. However, no where does it say that the warm up side must (or shall) coincide with the first side choice. Further the USTA goes on to explain at least one situation where you do not have to warm up on the same side as the first game side. This exception does not say only when players are not getting a good warm up but that it is an option (especially in cases where players are not getting a good warm up).

The section as it appears in the code (below) does not require a poor warm up situation .... it just follows the section about what constitutes an adequite warm up.

THE WARM-UP [Page 46]
3. Warm-up is not practice. A player should provide the opponent a 5-minute warm-up (ten minutes if there are no ball persons). If a player refuses to warmup the opponent, the player forfeits the right to a warm-up. Some players confuse warm-up and practice. Each player should make a special effort to hit shots directly to the opponent. If partners want to warm each other up while their opponents are warming up, they may do so.

 

[Rui]

So, if a foursome breaks the rule and flips for serve/side after the warm-up, what, exactly, is the penalty? Tennis Rules School? Expulsion from USTA?

 

[Munj]

However, no where does it say that the warm up side must (or shall) coincide with the first side choice.

Doesn't the phrase "...so that the players can warm-up on the same end from which they play their first game." mean that "the warm up side must (or shall) coincide with the first side choice"?

 

[AR15]

I usually warm up with my team before I meet my opponents. When we meet the opponents it is time to play. Usually my opponents want to "knock the fuzz off" the new balls we open, which is like a continued warm up. I usually suggest that we do our toss before we knock the fuzz off so that we don't have to come to the net a second time. It's just not very efficient (IMO) for us to meet at the court, shake hands to introduce ourselves, open a can of balls, and warm up, only to have to meet again at the net to do the toss ritual.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Doesn't the phrase "...so that the players can warm-up on the same end from which they play their first game." mean that "the warm up side must (or shall) coincide with the first side choice"?

No, it says they can ... and this certainly happens most of the time. The Friend at the court also says that partners may warm each other up ... meaning you do not have to be on the side you intend to start at.

I have come to the conclusion that the orginal posters question centers around whether by walking to one side did the oppents decide to start there? Obviously the opponents would say no, since they did not walk to the side they eventually wanted. Some say yes because it was implied by walking over there.

I believe that since there is room for confusion the decision needs to be verbal so there is no lack of clarity.

 

[kylebarendrick]

I have played a few playoff matches where an official walked to the court with us, flipped a coin, guided us through the selections, and then pointed us to the sides we'd chosen to wam up. Since this seems in line with the plain english reading of the rules quoted above, I'd say this is how we are supposed to start a match.

At the same time, most matches start with a warm-up and then people spin a raquet. I believe this is technically incorrect, but if nobody cares then no harm is done.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

I have played a few playoff matches where an official walked to the court with us, flipped a coin, guided us through the selections, and then pointed us to the sides we'd chosen to wam up. Since this seems in line with the plain english reading of the rules quoted above, I'd say this is how we are supposed to start a match.

At the same time, most matches start with a warm-up and then people spin a raquet. I believe this is technically incorrect, but if nobody cares then no harm is done.

While true ... they do expect you to go to your chosen side, I have also been at sectionals and told the official we would like to warm each other up. Perfectly legal and within the rules.

 

[Blask]

This is very interesting to me. I have never played in a USTA match where the racquet spin/coin toss was done before the warmup. We always do it afterwards and then choose to serve or receive.

 

[jc4.0]

Playing players

If choosing the side means something to YOU, then you should get this straight at the racquet spin. Otherwise, who cares? You won the spin and took what you wanted. I don't think there is a particular rule about whether the side can be chosen after the warmup, but obviously it's best to decide beforehand, for all concerned. It does make a difference, so maybe these guys were playing you.