Chronicling my private lessons quest to go from clueless 3.5 to 4.0

After this summer, 20 lessons, I realized a 3.5 basically has no idea how to play real tennis, and has no real understanding of any aspect of the game except topspin.
No learned technique, no real idea what they’re doing, and are basically a random mishmosh of inconsistent inefficient "natural intuitive comfortable" movements. It was a massive eyeopener.
Proper technique takes a lot more energy, which is the opposite of what your body does when trying to conserve energy. (not turning, not bending, not stepping, etc) This is why tennis is a young man's game, and careers are often over by 30.
Tennis is such an efficient optimized science, I now understand why almost all 4.5’s look almost identical in their mechanics.

I have started with a new coach as the summer guy has left.
I will chronicle my journey with this coach in this thread.

First, we adjusted my forehand take-away.
For 30 years, I just had my racket sideways, and applied extreme wristy topspin.
Now, working on taking back racket cocked pointing straight up, wrist cocked.
This is all part of "the turn" (feet, shoulders, arms, hips) which I never did. Turn early!
Then you drop it, and strings facing down, then sweeping upwards.
Of course, follow thru high. I never do, b/c of whipping wristy top spin.
I think I never ended over my shoulder since my entire swing trajectory was too flat.
Now, with the racket drop, there is a more low to high arc, and follow through high is more natural consequence.
This was very apparent on my backhand side. It was hard NOT to end with hands over my shoulders.

I tried to apply this take away to backhand takeaway in lesson #2.
The biggest hurdle was to get the strings facing down when the racket was back.
My natural position has strings facing sideways to the horizon.
To do this, I had to change my backhand grip.
The grip is easily the most confusing aspect of tennis to me.
When he says hold it this way, it can be done 5 ways, since everyone "natural rest position" can vary. Hammer, handshake, etc.

Anyway, for backhand, I used to just use my forehand grip (Semi-W? Slightly closed)
Now, I think I use something that is flat to slightly open (still need to figure this out)
Hard to explain, but my wrist was too cocked during the swing, really locking me up.
Tried to pick a grip where lower hand wrist is still fairly straight, not cocked at 90*
I had to spend a few minutes learning how to hold the racket again.
I was bombing a lot shots into the fence, and some where not even reaching the net, and others landed at the service line, and others were deep. LOL, a lot to work on here.
Feel like ball distance from body is still wrong. Way too tight, and muscling the ball.
One way to start grooving this is doing a “C-loop” with the backhand.
This helps me get the motion, but is a longer swing arc.
There is a LOT going on here, total overload, so it’s going to take a lot of time.

My current backhand, I contact the ball flat, and THEN start the topspin motion.
The correct way is to have the topspin motion already started by point of contact.
Simply brushing up on the back of the ball is not exactly the whole story.
So, I am trying to hit the ball in front of me. This is key to get everything working in synch.
This will take at least 5 practices to get the backhand working and more consistent.
Basically, I am completely junking my entire backhand and rebuilding it from ground zero.

Also adjusted the grip for volley (continental, flat, neutral)
I was doing this totally wrong (just using same forehand grip, which would mean racket face is open on the backhand without cocking the wrist)
Going to start drilling volleys in a few practices, but way too much foundational stuff to focus on for now.

Also, working on the turn on both sides of the ground stroke.
Closing your stance is so hard and awkward, after 30 years of hitting while facing the net.
Turn everything (hips, feet, hands, racket back) as soon as you know what side you’re going to hit.
Totally opposite of instinct. This needs to be trained, or you will NEVER do it.

Footwork is the hardest and most unnatural aspect of tennis.
Anyone with correct footwork has spent $5000 in coaching.
I also realized for 30 years, I never used my legs to generate power.
Or, I’d use the wrong leg (b/c it feels so much more natural)
Now, I see you should use your rear leg on both strokes to push into the swing.
Starting to work on that for a few practices.

Also started practicing approach shots.
My last coach told me to hit approach at 75%, but new coach says to hit at 100% (more spin, drops in)
Main thing with approach is to angle it to pull the player outside.
Then you need to track and follow the ball to the outside for the volley.
Don't get too close to the net, or you will get lobbed.

Soon, I will start to drill volleys and then connect the two.
This is all going to take a lot of work, which is awesome.
The split step is finally starting to come natural.
You do the split step right before opponent swings.
The problem I was having was only taking 1 step after the split step (like in a drill when ball is hit directly to you)
After the split step, you don;t just to the 1-step crossover. You need to run to the ball.
Split step is just a pause, not a destination.

Volleys drilling will start in the next few practices
I will be using a neutral grip for both volleys.
I have no idea how I will switch back and forth between forehand grip (slightly closed), backhand grip (flat to slightly open), and volley (flat, neutral)
 
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After this summer, 20 lessons, I realized a 3.5 basically has no idea how to play real tennis, and has no real understanding of any aspect of the game except topspin.
No learned technique, no real idea what they’re doing, and are basically a random mishmosh of inconsistent inefficient "natural intuitive comfortable" movements. It was a massive eyeopener.
Proper technique takes a lot more energy, which is the opposite of what your body does when trying to conserve energy. (not turning, not bending, not stepping, etc) This is why tennis is a young man's game, and careers are often over by 30.
Tennis is such an efficient optimized science, I now understand why almost all 4.5’s look almost identical in their mechanics.

I have started with a new coach as the summer guy has left.
I will chronicle my journey with this coach in this thread.

First, we adjusted my forehand take-away.
For 30 years, I just had my racket sideways, and applied extreme wristy topspin.
Now, working on taking back racket cocked pointing straight up, wrist cocked.
This is all part of "the turn" (feet, shoulders, arms, hips) which I never did. Turn early!
Then you drop it, and strings facing down, then sweeping upwards.
Of course, follow thru high. I never do, b/c of whipping wristy top spin.
I think I never ended over my shoulder since my entire swing trajectory was too flat.
Now, with the racket drop, there is a more low to high arc, and follow through high is more natural consequence.
This was very apparent on my backhand side. It was hard NOT to end with hands over my shoulders.

I tried to apply this take away to backhand takeaway in lesson #2.
The biggest hurdle was to get the strings facing down when the racket was back.
My natural position has strings facing sideways to the horizon.
To do this, I had to change my backhand grip.
The grip is easily the most confusing aspect of tennis to me.
When he says hold it this way, it can be done 5 ways, since everyone "natural rest position" can vary. Hammer, handshake, etc.

Anyway, for backhand, I used to just use my forehand grip (Semi-W? Slightly closed)
Now, I think I use something that is flat to slightly open (still need to figure this out)
Hard to explain, but my wrist was too cocked during the swing, really locking me up.
Tried to pick a grip where lower hand wrists were still fairly straight, not cocked.
I had to spend a few minutes learning how to hold the racket again.
I was bombing a lot shots into the fence, and some where not even reaching the net, and others landed at the service line, and others were deep. LOL, a lot to work on here.
Feel like ball distance from body is still wrong. Way too tight, and muscling the ball.
One way to start grooving this is doing a “C-loop” with the backhand.
This helps me get the motion, but is a longer swing arc.
There is a LOT going on here, total overload, so it’s going to take a lot of time.

My current backhand, I contact the ball flat, and THEN start the topspin motion.
The correct way is to have the topspin motion already started by point of contact.
Simply brushing up on the back of the ball is not exactly the whole story.
So, I am trying to hit the ball in front of me. This is key to get everything working in synch.
This will take at least 5 practices to get the backhand working and more consistent.

Also adjusted the grip for volley (continental)
I was doing this totally wrong (just using same forehand grip)
Going to start drilling volleys in a few practices, but way too much foundational stuff to focus on for now.

Also, working on the turn on both sides.
Closing your stance is so hard and awkward, after 30 years of hitting while facing the net.
Turn everything (hips, feet, hands, racket back) as soon as you know what side you’re going to hit.
Totally opposite of instinct. This needs to be trained, or you will NEVER do it.

Footwork is the hardest and most unnatural aspect of tennis.
Anyone with correct footwork has spent $5000 in coaching.
I also realized for 30 years, I never used my legs to generate power.
Or, I’d use the wrong leg (b/c it feels so much more natural)
Now, I see you should use your rear leg on both strokes to push into the swing.
Starting to work on that for a few practices.

Also started practicing approach shots.
Soon, I will start to drill volleys and then connect the two.
This is all going to take a lot of work, which is awesome.
The split step is finally starting to come natural.
You do the split step right before opponent swings.
The problem I was having was only taking 1 step after the split step (like in a drill when ball is hit directly to you)
After the split step, you don;t just to the 1-step crossover. You need to run to the ball.
Split step is just a pause, not a destination.
My last coach told me to hit approach at 75%, but new coach says to hit at 100% (more spin, drops in)

Volleys drilling will start in the next few practices
I will be using a neutral grip for both volleys.
I have no idea how I will switch back and forth between forehand grip (slightly closed), backhand grip (flat to slightly open), and volley (flat, neutral)

You lost me at your first sentence
 
Not to be harsh to other 3.5's but you are correct in your assessment of your game and the reasons given are why people stay stuck at the 3.5 level or maybe 4.0 if they're smart tacticaly in matches.

Footwork being the most important yet most neglected. Proper positioning sets up everything and proper recovery sets you up for the next shot. Tennis is a movement sport, there's no way around it.

I like to use the term fundamentals and not technique. The term technique can be confused with style and so on. Fundamentals are things that you mentioned that you're working on with your coach. It's great you found a coach you can trust and committed to changing your game for the better. Good luck!
 
You don't sound like a 3.5. Honestly there is a pretty big gap between playing results between 3.5 and 4.0 - but not always that much in technique. A 3.5 often looks like they know roughly how to play tennis. What league do you play in?


Sample 3.5 tennis. Sorry dude 3.5s aren't world beaters but they do have some idea of technique..

I watch a lot of league tennis and what you see is a progression. You often have to ask what level people are when the signs are not posted - this is because a strong 3.5 can look a lot like a weak 4.0. They might get clobbered in an actual match but form differences are not so cut and dry. Likewise technique is all over the place.. Some use 'unorthodox' technique - others use more 'text book" (see above match for example)..

When people actually do advance - (it generally takes at least a season) its that they are doing everything a bit better then they were before. They hit more good solid forehands, serves etc. And thus the beat more opponents and such. But almost always they had 'signs' before that this would happen. Like they hit 2 out of 10 forehands legit - and now they hit 5 out 10 solidly..
 
LOL. I was just telling a poster here that I was lucky I didnt have a coach in my youth to stop me from using a SW grip on the bh! I added the c loop a few years back and that has helped, but not having to change grips is a big win for me especially when returning...

Good luck on the changes and hang in there!
 
Those 3.5s in the video seem like overall weak players. Their serve looks like the best part of their games. The rest is pretty bad, with tons of unforced errors. My groundstrokes are much stronger than those players. I swing harder and with more spin, and more consistent. One is constantly slicing back shots. Pretty sure I would beat both of them. Nice looking serves though.
 
As for grips, I've been using the same semi western grip for both forehand and backhand for decades. Switching backhand to continental, on bevel 2.
 
LOL. I was just telling a poster here that I was lucky I didnt have a coach in my youth to stop me from using a SW grip on the bh! I added the c loop a few years back and that has helped, but not having to change grips is a big win for me especially when returning...

Good luck on the changes and hang in there!

Odds are your backhand is flat with weak spin. As such, do you get depth on your backhand? my main focus is getting more depth on both ground strokes. Switching to continental will force me to add way more spin which will help drop the ball deep.
 
Those 3.5s in the video seem like overall weak players. Their serve looks like the best part of their games. The rest is pretty bad, with tons of unforced errors. My groundstrokes are much stronger than those players. I swing harder and with more spin, and more consistent. One is constantly slicing back shots. Pretty sure I would beat both of them. Nice looking serves though.
But you dont play in league right? These guys will beat more then half of all rec players. Practice vs actual competive play is different and self evaluations are not accurate..
 
Odds are your backhand is flat with weak spin. As such, do you get depth on your backhand? my main focus is getting more depth on both ground strokes. Switching to continental will force me to add way more spin which will help drop the ball deep.
You do understand that the SW grip creates a more closed racketface right and can give more spin. It also has the palm behind the racket so for me its a stronger grip than with the palm on top. Which means you can take a cut at the ball which also helps with spin and lets you get more RHS. IMHO eastern BH grip is better than the continental for spin and depth.

Anyhow here is a vid shot a few days ago where I edited out the FHs. Some of the Bhs have more spin than the incoming FH and well at least at my level no one would call those BHs weak. Just the opposite really. And all but one were very deep.

Anyhow I get that the SW grip is a no no but its not really founded IMHO. Heck I know a coach that wouldnt teach the Eastern or Western on the FH!! Coaches can be so my way or the highway and damn I am glad I didnt have one to "fix" my bh. Conti for more spin? Over an Eastern? yikes I would have to find a new coach. Are you sure you meant to type CONTI? Eastern BH is the default topspin bh grip....

I'm in blue:

 
But you dont play in league right? These guys will beat more then half of all rec players. Practice vs actual competive play is different and self evaluations are not accurate..

Most recreational players play for fun, they are not deep into competition and don't necessarily want to belong to leagues.

Judging by your comment, you must be one of the guys in the video because I agree with the OP, they look like average players at best.
 
Of course they are 'average' players - they are 3.5s. :confused: OP was claiming as '3.5'
has no idea how to play real tennis, and has no real understanding of any aspect of the game

Total nonsensical exaggeration...sorry man.

Most recreational players play for fun, they are not deep into competition and don't necessarily want to belong to leagues.

The rec guys that just play for fun will get owned by the league players. League players know how to win - especially at 3.5 - they had to beat all the 3.0s to get there. There are not tons of semi-pro guys just hanging around not playing..

League players on average do things like - tennis lessons - play regular practice match - play competitive matches - record their play. They are the most serious..
 
^^^ Good points. It is all relative. 3.5 league players know how to win. People who criticize them are usually those who watch from the sidelines claiming that they are far superior, but are too afraid to play a match because they will lose. And those who are really better don't waste their time commenting about these players.
 
The guy I play with we often split sets. Evenly matched.
He joined a 3.0 league a crushed that level. He went 8-0 or something ridiculous
He has also played a 4.0 player and has gotten crushed.
So, it's safe to say I am a 3.5
 
I know nothing about 1hbh, but in that video above, look at your low follow-thru after you dumped the forehand into the net at :28.
I also do this, but am working on it. High follow through!
 
I know nothing about 1hbh, but in that video above, look at your low follow-thru after you dumped the forehand into the net at :28.
I also do this, but am working on it. High follow through!
IMHO there is no right follow through. It varies by the shot. On that shot the ball got in on me faster than I anticipated. A less high follow through would have most likely put the ball straight into the court. So a high follow through is needed on that shot to lift the ball from a crappy contact point and it worked.

So yeah such a follow through all the time probably should be worked on, but don't get absolutistic about it!
 

Sample 3.5 tennis. Sorry dude 3.5s aren't world beaters but they do have some idea of technique..

When people actually do advance - (it generally takes at least a season) its that they are doing everything a bit better then they were before. They hit more good solid forehands, serves etc. And thus the beat more opponents and such. But almost always they had 'signs' before that this would happen. Like they hit 2 out of 10 forehands legit - and now they hit 5 out 10 solidly..

Thanks for that video. It's a pretty clear indicator of the range in the 3.5 league, at least in the ******* USA. Upper 3.5's hit more like Chih and lower 3.5's use strokes more like Bill. With similar outcomes.

Coaching can help hone in on where the errors are being made to go from 2/10 legit to 5/10 legit. IMO, practice of the new skills can be as important or even more important than the lessons, to ingrain the new behavior.

I need a LOT of practice!
 

Grip knowledge is expected at 3.5

This. Your 3.5 can play tennis. If you grabbed one for your doubles match or whatever they could hit all the regular shots - rally 20 balls or so (comfortable speed)..etc. It's like in hoops... You grab your average regular player - they can hit layups - hit jumpers at the foul line, run a pick and roll with you..etc. They aren't going to throw down dunks and get out on the wing and finish.. But 'average".
 
The guy I play with we often split sets. Evenly matched.
He joined a 3.0 league a crushed that level. He went 8-0 or something ridiculous
He has also played a 4.0 player and has gotten crushed.
So, it's safe to say I am a 3.5

Most men who play regularly do seem to end up at 3.5. But they are playing regularly.. So I wouldn't call them 'clueless'.. Unless you get coaching, are quite dedicated or a bit more athletic - 3.5 is where most guys end up league wise. When we talk about 4.0 and better usually some combination of money spent on lessons, fitness and athleticism involved. Guys don't naturally settle in that high..

When they readjusted the rankings of league play we saw that most people were either 3.0 or 3.5 - that's like 80% of the population - and those guys play regularly (at least 1 or twice a week). People don't seem to get this whole 'curve' thing. But its like 20% regular players 4.0 and better and 5% 4.5 or better. etc. You don't just keep at it and end up 4.0. You get that and are spending money. For a lot of guys that probably the only way.. sad to say..

3.5 has some advantages though - wide range of opponents - lobbers. slicers. hard hitters (that miss). fitness freaks. skilled but old. etc. So not a bad place to be..

Lots of people think the higher levels are less fun. 4.5s for example can do most everything pretty decent but tend to settle on hard hitting ground stroke oriented play. Not saying all play that way but its much more common..
 
After this summer, 20 lessons, I realized a 3.5 basically has no idea how to play real tennis, and has no real understanding of any aspect of the game except topspin.

No learned technique, no real idea what they’re doing, and are basically a random mishmosh of inconsistent inefficient "natural intuitive comfortable" movements. It was a massive eyeopener.

I don't think you're wrong. Sometimes I wonder WTF I'm looking at when I watch a 3.5 match. Like the guy who will run in past the service line to retrieve a short ball and then TURN AROUND and run back to the baseline. Or the guy with the one handed guillotine backhand who goes for the backspin RPM record with every wild chop. I think my favorite is wild toss guy, though. He might throw it 2 feet out of the strike zone, but he's going to chase it down and take a swing anyway.
 
I don't think you're wrong. Sometimes I wonder WTF I'm looking at when I watch a 3.5 match. Like the guy who will run in past the service line to retrieve a short ball and then TURN AROUND and run back to the baseline. Or the guy with the one handed guillotine backhand who goes for the backspin RPM record with every wild chop. I think my favorite is wild toss guy, though. He might throw it 2 feet out of the strike zone, but he's going to chase it down and take a swing anyway.
I will not go as far as you and the OP, who says he thinks that a 3.5 player has "no clue" how to play real tennis, but I do disagree with two earlier posters who seem to be saying that most 3.5 players have knowledge of the correct grips for all strokes. I wonder why, if these players know the correct grips for all strokes, do they not choose to use those grips when they play.
 
After this summer, 20 lessons, I realized a 3.5 basically has no idea how to play real tennis, and has no real understanding of any aspect of the game except topspin.
There's a difference between knowing, and knowing how to apply whatever one knows. Telling one's body to do something, consistently, and then eventually turning it into muscle memory without letting any bad habits creeping back in under pressure is harder than you think for many people. Even footwork.

Take it easy with absolute declarations. Just because you have had your ah-ha moment, it doesn't mean you get the right to come and ridicule the average recreational player, i.e. the majority of recreational players. Either way, good luck with your journey with your current coach. IMO, part of the fun about rec sport is the improvements and various ah-ha moments.
 
I will not go as far as you and the OP, who says he thinks that a 3.5 player has "no clue" how to play real tennis, but I do disagree with two earlier posters who seem to be saying that most 3.5 players have knowledge of the correct grips for all strokes. I wonder why, if these players know the correct grips for all strokes, do they not choose to use those grips when they play.

Because they play better with the incorrect grips. Feel Tennis has a nice video about the serve with respect to this. Here is a secret - it's easier to serve with a forehand grip if you don't have a decent throwing motion and/or have not practiced serving. You will serve BETTER with a forehand grip. Lots of 3.5s are guys who don't play tennis much - but they want to win when they get out there. Hence the forehand grip on the serve..

As for the other strokes - I doubt you can really see what grip they are using. Most use approx the right grips there...cept sometimes cheat over on the volley..
 
Took lesson #3 (20 total, if I count the summer lessons)

I am realizing that almost every single motion in tennis must be coached and taught directly, to be done correctly.
There is almost zero intuition in tennis, and if there is, it's flat out wrong if you want to be at the 4.0 or 4.5 level.

One recurring flaw is not taking the racket back as soon as I know what side I am hitting.
First turn, then move around sideways to position yourself.

I tried my new backhand grip (continental, bevel #2)
I was wildly inconsistent, both hitting the middle of the fence, and not even reaching the net.

One cool trick he showed me was how to switch from forehand to backhand grip without looking.
Assume Semi-W forehand grip (Bevel #4). You turn the racket by cocking the wrist of your other hand (while loosening the grip of the dominant hand)
This way, the racket handle spins in your hand. Once the wrist is cocked, resume your grip with the dominant hand, and you will be in Conti (bevel #2)

For both groundstrokes, the new big thing was crouching while planting the front foot, and then moving your entire body upwards during the swing.
I would never ever think to do this on my own, as it takes extra energy to bend the legs, and the natural intuitive motion is to economize energy (particularly as you age)

We practiced short balls (approch shot). The key here is to stay low, and not follow thru high (or you launch it long)
You need to add topspin and hit it in front of you.

Hitting the ball in front of you also is a big theme. This was part of my backhand flaw, I believe.
If you don't hit far enough in front, the face is still flat on contact, and then it goes long.

I worked on volleys, as well. Grip is continental. The main things he told me were:
1) For the "backswing", don't move your arm back, but just pivot at the elbow, like a door hinge. Tried it with arm pinned to my side, to exaggerate.
2) Drop the wrist so the racket is slightly sideways (Not straight up, not horizontal)
3) Attack the ball. You are trying to undercut it. Leading with the edge of the racket. You will feel like you'll frame it.

I tried a kick serve as well. Conti grip.
I can't describe this in words, but it was unlike any movement I'd do naturally.

I am realizing that almost every single motion in tennis must be coached and taught directly, to be done correctly.
Whatever intuition there is in learning tennis, it's flat out wrong, assuming if you want to play at the 4.0+ level (without being a pusher, that is)
 
Quite the contrary.

I have excelled in several sports, have excellent dexterity and coordination, am easily in the top 20% of fitness for my entire adult life. Running marathons, doing CrossFit, decades of weightlifting, etc.

I got to 3.5 NTRP without ever taking a single lesson. Very few people ever do that. Most people can't even hit a tennis ball with topspin.
 
IMMHO the NTRP scales (and the level definitions) are just to measure mostly technical progress.

I think that is useless to judge actual competitive ability or performance as IMO there's a whole lot more to playing competitively than what is present in the NTRP descriptions such as: Tactical ability, Physical ability, Mental, Emotional just to name a few - all of that is called upon in a competitive situation.

So using a self-rated NTRP level to assess expected performance in competitive situation is mostly ill-applied.

I think we all (myself included) tend to fall into that trap...
 
Because they play better with the incorrect grips. Feel Tennis has a nice video about the serve with respect to this. Here is a secret - it's easier to serve with a forehand grip if you don't have a decent throwing motion and/or have not practiced serving. You will serve BETTER with a forehand grip. Lots of 3.5s are guys who don't play tennis much - but they want to win when they get out there. Hence the forehand grip on the serve..

As for the other strokes - I doubt you can really see what grip they are using. Most use approx the right grips there...cept sometimes cheat over on the volley..
You don't need to see a guy's hand actually on the racket to pretty well tell what grip he's using, if that's what you're saying. You generally can tell the grip just from looking at the angle of the racket to the arm, even from a distance. I wonder if the 3.5 guys you're describing would even know what a continental grip is.
 
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Odds are your backhand is flat with weak spin. As such, do you get depth on your backhand? my main focus is getting more depth on both ground strokes. Switching to continental will force me to add way more spin which will help drop the ball deep.
I think there might be some confusion regarding a SW backhand grip.

There are two grips with the name SW, one for the fh and one for the bh. In the same way there are also two grips with the name Eastern, one for the fh and one for the bh. The SW fh and bh grips are unique however because they not only share the same name, the player's hand is also in the same position on the racquet handle. The only difference is the side of the racquet that you hit the ball with. Confused?

Let's start with a SW fh as a reference. The index knuckle is on bevel 4, so when the ball is struck the knuckle is somewhat below the handle.

For a SW bh, which is what Shroud was talking about, the index knuckle is technically on bevel 8. When the ball is struck the knuckle is near the top of the grip, but around the back side by one bevel. From a practical standpoint however, this is exactly the same hand position on the racquet as bevel 4. You just hit need to flip the racquet over and hit the ball with the opposite face. A SW bh grip is great for spin. Many pros who use a 1hbh use this grip (Gasguet, Almagro, Henin - I think). It also has the advantage that the player can hold one grip and hit fh and bh, but with opposite sides of the racquet.

However, it is possible to hit a bh with a fh SW grip. I think this is what the OP is talking about. When the ball is struck the knuckle would be under and in front of the handle. The wrist would be turned over in an awkward position, but it would be possible. This would be a really bad grip however, and would be almost impossible to hit topspin with. A continental grip would feel a lot better and would allow much easier generation of topspin. That said, a continental is still considered a pretty conservative grip for a topspin 1hbh. An eastern bh grip (bevel 1), or the aforementioned SW bh grip (bevel 8), puts the wrist in a much better position to produce spin because, as Shroud said, it naturally allows the racquet face to close.
 
Quite the contrary.

I have excelled in several sports, have excellent dexterity and coordination, am easily in the top 20% of fitness for my entire adult life. Running marathons, doing CrossFit, decades of weightlifting, etc.

I got to 3.5 NTRP without ever taking a single lesson. Very few people ever do that. Most people can't even hit a tennis ball with topspin.
FWIW I got to 4.0 without taking a lesson and was self taught. I may have gotten higher if I had coaching or I may have quit tennis all together...

Yeah lots of people never get topspin on the fh, bh or serve.

I think I would rather be in great shape and be a 3.5 myself...
 
I got to 3.5 NTRP without ever taking a single lesson. Very few people ever do that. Most people can't even hit a tennis ball with topspin.

Brag much? I never seen a player who can't hit topspin at any level.. Some guys don't want to - some guys only slice. But they can do it.. We aren't talking about a kicker serve to someone's head here...
 
I started doing a split step on every shot.
Groundstrokes & serve returns, not just volley.
Now I know why serious players hate hard courts.
Not only does correct footwork takes so much more energy, but it’s brutal on the knees.
 
Today's lesson, I did some backhand work.
Backhand is an absolute mess.
1 in 20 were going in. Most were not even reaching the net.
Worse than when I was 8 years old.
See here for the grip that was suggested.
Changing grips, trying to drop the racket lower, massive upstroke, bending legs.
I think I am too old to truly rebuild that swing.
I'll give it a few more sessions before I pull the plug and go back to my more reliable backhand.

Did some volley practice. That was good.
Decided to ditch my 2 handed backhand volley and stick with one handed. Seems cleaner.
My crossing footwork is way better than 3 months ago, and now I do it without thinking about it. (Finally).
The big lesson here was high volley, keep racket high. Don't slap it down, like a slam. Volley is a cut horizontal.
Attack the ball before it drops. Of the dozens of shots, I did it a few times. Seed planted. Now just need 1000 balls a day. Ha.

Also did some kick serve practice.
Started getting more comfortable with an extreme grip and hitting the ball directly over my head.
Racket path is totally different for kick. Will take a few hours to get used to.
He actually had me kneeling at the service line, holding the racket at the throat, in order to isolate just the feeeling of what a kick feels like (all strings)
Then I gradually moved my hand down the racket handle and then went back to baseline to serve.
 
For now, the key is that I am seeing slight & changes improvement that stick (like you can do it 20% of the time), so I know I am on the right path.
So, that does reinforce why I am changing everything, and learning the correct way to play tennis.
And the very process of drilling is inherently VERY satisfying, even if I never play an actual match.
Seeing myself evolve/improve even within a 10 min drill is truly its own reward.
Something concept I had no idea about, and then you slowly are able to demonstrate that (even if only 20% of the time, in live play)
just makes the lesson itself a very enjoyable activity, in the present moment, with no actual motive/endgame beyond that.
 
From a practical standpoint however, this is exactly the same hand position on the racquet as bevel 4. You just hit need to flip the racquet over and hit the ball with the opposite face.

I agree with everything except you would be hitting it with the same side of the face. When you switch grips you hit with opposite sides.

I have commented with Shroud previously about trying to use the same Sw grip for FH and BH. It is hopeless for me, I end up getting tangled up. LOL Very embarrassing. It seems inefficient to switch grips to go to the identical grip you started with, but what can I say? I learned using an eastern FH and conti BH and switching grips is ingrained.
 
I just re-read rkelly's comments about backhand grip, and it looks exactly like what I was being told to do today.
Knuckle on Bevel #8. This must be called Semi-Western Backhand. I find it to be atrocious for me.
I am going back to Conti next time.
 
Don't think so. Not at all.
Even Nadal doesn't know what grip he uses.

But ironically, 3.5s may be more knowledgeable about grips, because a large number of them--although not a majority--look up and debate tennis technique and biomechanics on forums 24/7. They then proudly talk about their 130 mph serves.

I would know--I'm one of them (I don't serve 130 mph though).
 
I agree with everything except you would be hitting it with the same side of the face. When you switch grips you hit with opposite sides.

I have commented with Shroud previously about trying to use the same Sw grip for FH and BH. It is hopeless for me, I end up getting tangled up. LOL Very embarrassing. It seems inefficient to switch grips to go to the identical grip you started with, but what can I say? I learned using an eastern FH and conti BH and switching grips is ingrained.
Yep, you're right. Same face with no grip switch. Sorry about that and thanks for catching it.

As far as learning to do it, get a ball machine or some wall time and make not changing the grip the #1 goal for the hitting session(s). I bet you can get it in a few times. Old habits are hard to break, but they can be broken.
 
Old habits are hard to break, but they can be broken.


Yes, it seems like it should be so simple and clearly more efficient, but I end up handcuffed when trying to hit a BH. I can do it against the wall or a ball machine. For some reason it breaks down in live play. I have reluctantly shelved this experiment and gone back to the tried and true, even if it does seem stupid to spin the racquet 180 degrees in my hand. LOL
 
It's amazing how long it can take to change an ingrained motion and feel comfortable with a new motion. Been there away too many times.
 
This was painful to watch. Blue's only halfway decent shot is his serve, everything else is geriatric tennis. The other guy looks he's trying but the shots don't look much better. Maybe he's not used to the junk but someone in 3.5 should be seeing junk on a regular basis.
 
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After this summer, 20 lessons, I realized a 3.5 basically has no idea how to play real tennis, and has no real understanding of any aspect of the game except topspin.

I think calling 3.5s "clueless" is a bit harsh. Players up to 3.0 are clueless. A 3.5, specially a good 3.5, has some clue. 4.0 is a decent player, but it's not until 4.5 that I'd call someone truly good at tennis.
 
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