Clay needs Hawkeye - ASAP. Pliskova robbed against Sakkari.

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Aussie Darcy, May 16, 2018.

?

Hawkeye on clau?

  1. Yes

  2. Hell yes

  3. No

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  1. Aussie Darcy

    Aussie Darcy Talk Tennis Guru

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    This just happened and i'm sure it'll be a talking point.

    Pliskova deep in the 3rd set against Sakkari. Hits a smash winner, the line judge calls it out, it's clearly in. Chair umpire hops down, can't find the mark, calls the line umpire up who now can't find the mark. The usually calm Pliskova absolutely livid, goes on the other side of the net to try and show. Tells Sakkari to show but Sakkari says she didn't see where it landed but she offers to replay the point. Pliskova asks for the tournament director who comes out but does nothing. TV replay then shows the viewers its clearly in.

    Footage of the ball in here https://twitter.com/Ashish__TV/status/996733586597298176

    Nothing happens and Sakkari gets the point so she has break point which she then converts. Goes on to serve out the match. Pliskova loses and provides an EPIC racquet smash.

    Shakes Sakkari's hand then does a brilliant fakeout handshake to the umpire and then DESTROYS her racket against the umpires chair. Hits it so hard she does this to it.

    [​IMG]

    Footage here:

    https://twitter.com/Ashish__TV/status/996734671625977856



    Notice how shocked Sakkari is by Pliskova smashing the racket, takes a step back.

    EPIC
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    #1
  2. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    Unlucky to lose the point but I feel Pliskova should get banned for her reaction at the end.
     
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    #2
  3. Aussie Darcy

    Aussie Darcy Talk Tennis Guru

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    Typed this so quickly I just saw it says 'clau' in the poll..
     
    #3
  4. Im(moral) Winner

    Im(moral) Winner Legend

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    It's not part of the tradition, no?
     
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    #3
  5. Aussie Darcy

    Aussie Darcy Talk Tennis Guru

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    Also means we wouldn't get to see stuff as epic as this

     
    #4
  6. QuadCam

    QuadCam Professional

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    That was a pretty lame racquet smash, actually. I was hoping to see a full freak out. It didn't even look like she broke her racquet, just tore through the plastic of the unpire stand.
     
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    #5
  7. QuadCam

    QuadCam Professional

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    That was a pretty lame racquet smash, actually. I was hoping to see a full freak out. It didn't even look like she broke her racquet, just tore through the plastic if the unit
     
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    #5
  8. axlrose

    axlrose Semi-Pro

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    Its a robbery. F the linejudge. F the umpire.
     
    #6
  9. Steve0904

    Steve0904 Talk Tennis Guru

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    Clay has needed hawkeye ever since hawkeye was a thing. If they have a dispute over the ballmark just use hawkeye then. You don't need to worry about margin of error. Nobody would argue with a machine anyway. Unless you whine about it like Federer I suppose ;).
     
    #7
  10. prairiegirl

    prairiegirl Professional

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    I don't understand the logic behind not having it. The umpire runs out and points to a mark and there are hundreds of marks on the court in the same place. It's ridiculous and unprofessional. Don't they have Hawkeye at RG?
     
    #8
  11. Adv. Edberg

    Adv. Edberg Hall of Fame

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    Hawkeye doesn't work on clay. There's a reason they don't use it.

    We can maybe put this never-ending discussion to rest now.
     
    #9
  12. StANDAA

    StANDAA Hall of Fame

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    Clay doesn’t have hawkeye for the same reason smaller stadiums at big HC tournaments don’t have it. It’s too expensive.
     
    #10
  13. reaper

    reaper Legend

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    Controversy is a good thing.
     
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    #10
  14. reaper

    reaper Legend

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    They show Hawkeye on the coverage.
     
    #11
  15. kimguroo

    kimguroo Hall of Fame

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    I have a Conspiracy theory that ATP knows Hawkeye is not a perfect system and afraid to reveal + - differences at clay courts. If players see those margins, there will be more arguments and distrust the system and it will be a disaster.
     
    #12
  16. Simon_the_furry

    Simon_the_furry Hall of Fame

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    Banned for smashing a racquet?
    That's pretty harsh, don't you think?
     
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    #12
  17. Adv. Edberg

    Adv. Edberg Hall of Fame

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    That works until HawkEye says out and you go check the mark and it's clearly in.

    Sure, it's still a great tool for stats. But for calling lines on clay, it certainly isn't.
     
    #13
  18. Adv. Edberg

    Adv. Edberg Hall of Fame

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    Nah, they have HawkEye on pretty much all clay tournaments. Especially the masters, they just don't use it for line calling cause it simply doesn't work well enough.
     
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    #14
  19. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    Not for smashing the racquet, but for doing it on the umpire's chair. I know there was no intention to actually hurt the umpire but it was still a physical threat.
     
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    #14
  20. Terenigma

    Terenigma G.O.A.T.

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    Did you see how far the ball was in tho? Yeah maybe clay might make it SLIGHTLY less accurate than on hard or grass but its still way more accurate than the blind as f*** umpires if you can't see a clear imprint. I'm not even convinced by the hawkeye arguement for clay, like what about clay makes it worse for hawkeye? The lines cant be seen coz the tape is covered up? Are we not past that and can customise the tech to better work? I'm sure it can be used still.
     
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    #15
  21. Steve0904

    Steve0904 Talk Tennis Guru

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    So how do you deal with these umps when they run out and point to the wrong mark? Or the right one but they make a clearly wrong call? The machine might not be perfect, but it's a machine. Most players that aren't complete hotheads will accept it and move on.
     
    #15
  22. Adv. Edberg

    Adv. Edberg Hall of Fame

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    Nah, they have HawkEye on pretty much all clay tournaments. Especially the masters, they just don't use it for line calling cause it simply doesn't work well enough.
     
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    #16
  23. Terenigma

    Terenigma G.O.A.T.

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    Then it should be used as a reference point when the umpires can't find the mark. There are ways to still use it or at least reference it. I don't claim to know how hawkeye is used but i'm pretty sure by now it should be scanning the lines even if it can't physically see the lines if they were covered in clay and be able to tell when a ball bounces in comparison to the lines. I refuse to believe it simply "cannot be used" and especially not when umpires are making mistakes like this.
     
    #16
  24. Tshooter

    Tshooter Legend

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    So what.

    They’ll show you whatever they think you might find entertaining to get you to keep watching.
     
    #17
  25. clayqueen

    clayqueen G.O.A.T.

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    Salt will be rubbed into the wound when Pliskova gets fined for smashing her racquet. Why can't the supervisor have a monitor where he has access to Hawkeye so that he can adjudicate in these cases? The supervisors might as well not be there because they always side with the umpire, no matter what.
     
    #18
  26. Adv. Edberg

    Adv. Edberg Hall of Fame

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    HawkEye isn't perfect even on HC. But people have accepted it cause there isn't much else to compare to HawkEye, i.e a mark. But on clay HE doesn't work as well because of undulations caused by the clay moving around among other things.

    If the umpire is unsure of the mark they should call for the line judge to point out the correct mark.

    It's not perfect and mistakes will happen, but they are very rare. It's still a better system than HE.
     
    #19
  27. Enceladus

    Enceladus Semi-Pro

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    It is known that the deviation of the hawk eye is 3.6 mm.
     
    #20
  28. Deon Sanders

    Deon Sanders Hall of Fame

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    Wont happen until "honest" and "humble" Ned finally retires

    Have to give room for creative interpretation of in and out for his matches
     
    #21
  29. axlrose

    axlrose Semi-Pro

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    Haha how many of you remember the Cedric Mourier incident lasy year? No Hawkeye error could move that ball into the court. It's time to use it on clay.

    [​IMG]
     
    #21
  30. Enceladus

    Enceladus Semi-Pro

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    It is known that the deviation of the hawk eye is 3.6 mm.
     
    #21
  31. Enceladus

    Enceladus Semi-Pro

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    It is known that the deviation of the hawk eye is 3.6 mm.
     
    #22
  32. I Am Finnish

    I Am Finnish G.O.A.T.

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    Remember the ramos and donaldson match
     
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  33. Tshooter

    Tshooter Legend

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    So what.

    They’ll show you whatever they think you might find entertaining to get you to keep watching.
     
    #24
  34. TahoeTennis

    TahoeTennis Hall of Fame

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    As much as people think, one point does not a match make. While the call was horrible the reaction does warrant a penalty for smashing her racket against the empire share and seems like she was just a sore loser. You have to move on and have short term memory to play great tennis and can't dwell on a past point
     
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    #25
  35. TahoeTennis

    TahoeTennis Hall of Fame

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    As much as people think, one point does not a match make. While the call was horrible the reaction does warrant a penalty for smashing her racket against the empire share and seems like she was just a sore loser. You have to move on and have short term memory to play great tennis and can't dwell on a past point
     
    #25
  36. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Just bad officiating. I'm really sick of hearing officials claim they cannot find the mark. This seems to happen more and more lately and I do not blame Pliskova for being angry. If the mark could not be identified by the chair and they do not use hawkeye for whatever reason they should have just replayed the point. Even Sakkari was willing to replay the point in this instance which, lets be real, she could have played stupid and not offered to replay the point at all. She tried to be nice in the situation.

    However, the racquet smashing, well she probably will at least be fined for that. Directly striking the chair of the official, no matter how mad at them you are or how bad they are doing their job, is not ok. That would be like if my Boss upset me and I went into his office and kicked a hole in the wall or his desk. You just don't do that.
     
    #25
  37. Enceladus

    Enceladus Semi-Pro

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    It is known that the deviation of the hawk eye is 3.6 mm.
     
    #26
  38. Mr.Lob

    Mr.Lob Legend

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    DAMN! Pissedkova just put herself in the esteemed company of Johnny Mac, Jimbo Connors and Serena "I didn't say I'd kill you" Williams with that outburst. A few more whacks on that umpires chair and it would have come tumbling down! :eek:
     
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    #27
  39. tacou

    tacou G.O.A.T.

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    "Get hawkeye. Everyone else has it."
    "But the ball leaves marks in the dirt.."
    "Tennis balls leave marks on everything. That's how the the physical world works. Get Hawkeye."
    "Shhh shhh. Look at her go. She'll find it... Woops, wrong mark."
     
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    #28
  40. HetTheGreaterer

    HetTheGreaterer Hall of Fame

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    Enlighten us with more such knowledge sir:p:p
     
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  41. Sum Buddy Ells

    Sum Buddy Ells Semi-Pro

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    The clay-hawkeye debate will never be put to rest, no surprises there. The only thing new I learned from this incident is that Pliskova is quite capable of displaying strong, passionate emotion :eek: So not quite the genetic makeup of those like Kristen Stewart or octobrina10
     
    #29
  42. Simon_the_furry

    Simon_the_furry Hall of Fame

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    I suppose you could interpret it that way. I don't think she should be banned, though, as it posed no harm and is, IMO, up for interpretation as to whether it was a threat towards the umpire or not.
     
    #30
  43. reaper

    reaper Legend

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    I'm yet to see an example where Hawkeye contradicts the ball mark. It removes the issue of match officials using an incorrect mark or not finding a mark at all.
     
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  44. norcal

    norcal Hall of Fame

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    Wait, if the ump can't find an out mark doesn't that mean it hit the line? How could it be interpreted any other way?

    I'd rather put up with whatever small variance hawkeye has rather than 3 levels of human failure like in this case.
     
    #32
  45. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous G.O.A.T.

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    "She couldn't keep her temper in Czech. Not a very Praguematic move on her part."

    :D
     
    #33
  46. I Am Finnish

    I Am Finnish G.O.A.T.

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    Welcome back
     
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  47. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous G.O.A.T.

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    I tried to skip the whole clay court season like Fed. ;)
     
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  48. mmk

    mmk Hall of Fame

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    Says who, and for what scientific/engineering reason? It surely works better than the umpire did in this match, or in Goffin's match against Nadal at last year's Monte Carlo.
     
    #36
  49. Tshooter

    Tshooter Legend

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    (1) I’ve not seen something = it doesn’t happen, is not persuasive;
    (2) if Hawkeye never contradicts “the ball mark” then there is no reason for it as far as accuracy of the call is concerned;
    (3) if you mean Hawkeye doesn’t contradict “the ball mark” you think is the correct mark compared to the one the chair thinks is the correct mark this is just a rephrase of the question whether Hawkeye is accurate. As for the accuracy should I rely on you or the company ?

    “One thing that’s integral to our system is we measure the court, but we also measure the undulations in the ground,” Irwin [Hawkeye company director of tennis as of May 2016 article] “So when you play on clay, obviously the ground is constantly changing, so that would require a lot more work from our side. We would constantly have to recalibrate the system if it were to be used for officiating [on clay].“

    http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2016...ts-would-be-required-use-hawk-eye-clay/58722/
     
    #36
  50. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous G.O.A.T.

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    I tried to skip the whole clay court season like Fed. ;)
     
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  51. pame

    pame Hall of Fame

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    Can you provide the name of one clay tournament where hawkeye is used? I can't seem to find any
    Say the guys who run Hawkeye.. the reason is tied up with the number of times they'd have to redo the surface because clay is such a shifting surface.
     
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  52. StANDAA

    StANDAA Hall of Fame

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    Why would they get a hawkeye for clay courts if it’s not going to be used and why doesn’t it work well enough?

    I though they just decide not to purchase the system for clay courts cause you can see the mark there, unlike on HCs or grass courts where hawkeye’s necessary.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    #38
  53. Adv. Edberg

    Adv. Edberg Hall of Fame

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    There’s been plenty of articles of why it doesn’t work on clay. But basically, the clay is too dynamic.

    And while HE wouldn’t make this big of an error it would’ve made 10 other errors in this match that the umpire didn’t do.

    When the umpires are unsure about the mark they should simply ask the line judge to point it out for them.
     
    #39
  54. Adv. Edberg

    Adv. Edberg Hall of Fame

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    Rome, Madrid, MC, FO etc. They just don’t use it for line calling because HE doesn’t do a very well job. It’s still good for stats.
     
    #40
  55. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro Bionic Poster

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    Dimitrov was also robbed earlier today by no other than Carlos Bernardes. Got pretty angry too even though the call made no difference in the end.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  56. Adv. Edberg

    Adv. Edberg Hall of Fame

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    HE doesn’t do line calling very well on clay. But it’s still great for stats.
     
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  57. Adv. Edberg

    Adv. Edberg Hall of Fame

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    I’ve seen it a few times. Umpire went down and checked mark and called it in. The player agreed. And camera zoomed in on the mark and even then you could see the mark touching the line despite the low camera angle.

    But Hawkeye called it just out.
     
    #43
  58. onehandbh

    onehandbh Legend

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    Hawkeye is supposed to be accurate to 3.6mm

    For sure there may situations on clay where the mark clearly show the ball was in or out but hawkeye gets it wrong.
     
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  59. sredna42

    sredna42 Semi-Pro

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    No, if anything the umpire should get fired for being incompetent at their job at best, or corrupt and taking bribes from illegal betting syndicates at worst.

    These players do it hard, give it their all, sacrifice their lives, and only to get literally robbed by incompetency so astounding that it beggars belief, her reaction is not only completely human, but after the match when umpires get it this horribly wrong they should have the common fcuking decency to publicly apologize and acknowledge the mistake.

    The Pliskova twins are usually so placid that you'd think they were dosed up on medication of some sort, so for one of them to rage you know it is genuine.

    "hUrrdurr, sportsmanship, reputation of the sport, she must be banned and her career ruined" The ATP is doing just fine all on their own making the sport look like a farce with apparently blind umpires bloated with little emperor syndrome deciding matches like this.
     
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  60. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Legend

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    Only those riding the short bus to school don't understand this.o_O
     
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  61. pame

    pame Hall of Fame

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    Oh I thought you meant for line-calling
     
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  62. Autodidactic player

    Autodidactic player Semi-Pro

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    Of course, Pliskova should be fined. She needs to show more maturity and respect for her sport.

    But an umpire who is too lazy (or corrupt) to get out of her chair and do her job should be banned for life. This call wasn't even close - obviously in - yet the umpire wouldn't even ask the line official to point out the mark. Inexcusable in my opinion! Umpires should not be above criticism.
     
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  63. I Am Finnish

    I Am Finnish G.O.A.T.

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    They will stop calling her icequeen after this
     
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    #49
  64. mightyjeditribble

    mightyjeditribble Hall of Fame

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    That's interesting about the undulations.

    You'd reckkon Hawkeye could be used to help the umpire identify the correct mark, however ... particularly if the equipment is already up for analysis purposes.

    I guess this means that automatic line calling (as trialled in Milan) is not coming anytime soon to clay.

    One thing I do wonder about with HawkEye, wonder whether anyone know - how big is the potential for human error? I mean, they need to calibrate the system before the tournament (and, at least on grass, at regular intervals as I understand). How foolproof is this? E.g., presumably (?) the system does not detect the lines themselves using cameras, but rather is calibrated to know where the lines are. Is it possible for this calibration to be slightly off, through human error? Would be interesting to know more.
     
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