Clay to expose Sinner false dawn? (Sinner 2024 vs Fed 2004)

[DSH]

When will Sinner win his second grand slam title?

Wimbledon or the US Open, this season.
I hope that the good sinner continues to improve his serve and strengthen his physique, if he succeeds, the best is yet to come for him.

 

[dking68]

Wimbledon or the US Open, this season.
I hope that the good sinner continues to improve his service and strengthen his physique, if he succeeds, the best is yet to come for him.

Why do you think Sinner has what it takes to succeed on British Lawns this year? What aspects of his game will allow him to do so?

 

[DSH]

Why do you think Sinner has what it takes to succeed on British Lawns this year? What aspects of his game will allow him to do so?

A high percentage of first serves, going up to the net to finish the point, using the slice to change the pace of the match, using the parallel backhand to destabilize the opponent on duty.
Be more offensive with the return of his opponents' second serves to take away their reaction time.

 

[CHillTennis]

The prime of a tennis player begins at 22 and ends at 28, 29 years old.
The peak of the great tennis players is between 24 and 27 years old, as a general rule.

Ok. So if a 22 year old tennis player loses to a 36 year old tennis player, then what does that tell us about their ability?

Prime Sinner loses to ancient Djokovic.

 

[dking68]

Ok. So if a 22 year old tennis player loses to a 36 year old tennis player, then what does that tell us about their ability?

Prime Sinner loses to ancient Djokovic.

Keep doubting Sinner, your video is embarrassingly wrong so far

 

[DSH]

Ok. So if a 22 year old tennis player loses to a 36 year old tennis player, then what does that tell us about their ability?

Yes, he didn't play the ATP Finals definition well and the Serbian wolf ate his entire prey mercilessly.
But, he quickly vindicated himself in the Davis Cup Finals, giving him a taste of his own medicine, saving three match points against him and in the Australian Open he finished with the longest winning streak of his rival, ending his invincibility in the semifinals, comfortably winning the match, except for a distraction in the third set.
Of course, he should never lose again against his opponent who is 14 years older, since unlike Alcaraz, the good sinner is already in his prime and has no excuses for having a negative result against him from now on.

 

[CHillTennis]

Yes, he didn't play the ATP Finals definition well and the Serbian wolf ate his entire prey mercilessly.
But, he quickly vindicated himself in the Davis Cup Finals, giving him a taste of his own medicine, saving three match points against him and in the Australian Open he finished with the longest winning streak of his rival, ending his invincibility in the semifinals, comfortably winning the match, except for a distraction in the third set.
Of course, he should never lose again against his opponent who is 14 years older, since unlike Alcaraz, the good sinner is already in his prime and has no excuses for having a negative result against him from now on.

Sinner also got smoked in that Wimbledon semi-final, which happened just a month before his 22nd birthday.

I agree with what you say, that the player's prime typically begins around age 22.

With that being said...there has never been a multi-time grand slam champion, that has lost matches to a player who is 14 years their senior, after the multi-time grand slam champion's 22nd birthday.

Not since the start of the Open era, at any rate.

 

[CHillTennis]

Keep doubting Sinner, your video is embarrassingly wrong so far

Puh-lease. My video is spot on bro.

You just don't want to admit it.

 

[NeutralFan]

If I'm irrelevant then why do you feel the need to reply to my comments?

I hope the common sense might prevail and you see the light.

 

[DSH]

Sinner also got smoked in that Wimbledon semi-final, which happened just a month before his 22nd birthday.

I agree with what you say, that the player's prime typically begins around age 22.

With that being said...there has never been a multi-time grand slam champion, that has lost matches to a player who is 14 years their senior, after the multi-time grand slam champion's 22nd birthday.

Not since the start of the Open era, at any rate.

From RG 2024 to the Australian Open 2025, they are the last Major tournaments that the Serbian wolf will compete at a high level, before his final decline.
The good sinner will have to show what stuff he is made of and put an end to the greatest winner of GS titles in history once and for all and establish a new era, this time definitive.

 

[CHillTennis]

I hope the common sense might prevail and you see the light.

I'm not living in the Bizarro World, son.

 

[NeutralFan]

I'm not living in the Bizarro World, son.

Look son I was being nice to you but it seems you're not just a troll but also a clown for being deliberately obtuse. Come to my ignore.

 

[CHillTennis]

From RG 2024 to the Australian Open 2025, they are the last Major tournaments that the Serbian wolf will compete at a high level, before his final decline.
The good sinner will have to show what stuff he is made of and put an end to the greatest winner of GS titles in history once and for all and establish a new era, this time definitive.

Who is to say that Djokovic's final decline will be at next year's Australian Open?

 

[NeutralFan]

Clown tennis entertainment son has been put on ignore.

 

[CHillTennis]

Look son I was being nice to you but it seems you're not just a troll but also a clown for being deliberately obtuse. Come on my ignore.

Suit yourself, bro.

 

[CHillTennis]

Clown tennis entertainment son has been put on ignore.

Skipperfan's are easily upset.

 

[DSH]

Who is to say that Djokovic's final decline will be at next year's Australian Open?

38 years old is the last straw for the greatest players of all time, especially at GS events.

 

[CHillTennis]

38 years old is the last straw for the greatest players of all time, especially at GS events.

Roger Federer was nearly 38 when he had that amazing run at Wimbledon. Then if you want to go back in time, quite a bit, Ken Rosewall made the finals of Wimbledon and the US Open when he was 39.

I hear what you're saying, but I still think it's possible that Djokovic could continue to be a threat to win grand slam titles for another two and a half years.

 

[dking68]

Look son I was being nice to you but it seems you're not just a troll but also a clown for being deliberately obtuse. Come to my ignore.

He’s a complete fool as far as I’m concerned. A guy who’s 25-1 to start a season has no signs of ATG potential?

How many other players have done that in their careers?

Jimmy Connors
Ivan Lendl
Novak Djokovic
Roger Federer
Pete Sampras
Jannik Sinner

Come to mind. All tennis legends, all ATGs, Sinner will be ATG

 

[dking68]

Clown tennis entertainment son has been put on ignore.

Yup I have him on ignore as well

 

[NeutralFan]

He’s a complete fool as far as I’m concerned. A guy who’s 25-1 to start a season has no signs of ATG potential?

How many other players have done that in their careers?

Jimmy Connors
Ivan Lendl
Novak Djokovic
Roger Federer
Pete Sampras
Jannik Sinner

Come to mind. All tennis legends, all ATGs, Sinner will be ATG

He deliberately ignored my point when I asked should I discredit Fed's because he lost to worse players in his pre prime days than Sinner did, lol

 

[Sudacafan]

Where's 2004 Nadal in 2024?
Death of thread.

 

[CHillTennis]

Yup I have him on ignore as well

Then why do you keep liking my posts? Lol.

 

[JoshDragon]

Then why do you keep liking my posts? Lol.

Haters gonna hate, right?

 

[DSH]

Where's 2004 Nadal in 2024?
Death of thread.

Nadal vs Gaudio in the quarterfinals of RG 2004, who wins?

 

[xFedal]

He’s a complete fool as far as I’m concerned. A guy who’s 25-1 to start a season has no signs of ATG potential?

How many other players have done that in their careers?

Jimmy Connors
Ivan Lendl
Novak Djokovic
Roger Federer
Pete Sampras
Jannik Sinner

Come to mind. All tennis legends, all ATGs, Sinner will be ATG

Sinner is playing as if he's a level above ATGs he's playing as if he's the GOAT, 94.1% hold and 31.4% break. 94% HOLD impossible for Federer, Sampras, Novak to reach.

 

[jl809]

I’m afraid to tell you all that if Sinner loses to Tsitsipas, he is undeniably, possibly irrevocably, a mug

 

[-snake-]

Well well, look who was right. Great call, Mel

 

[Meles]

I'm not interested in going back and forth on Sinner and his potential, other than to say this.
..

Is he the best player in the world, right now? Yes. Will he get the number one ranking in 2024? Sure I could definitely see that.

But he is playing against a very weak field and we have to keep that in perspective.

Well you seem to be a bit of an expert on the vacuum era so it takes one to know one I guess.

To my eyes the game and field is exceptionally strong right now with incredible depth to the field that has never been seen before.

 

[Krish872007]

I’m afraid to tell you all that if Sinner loses to Tsitsipas, he is undeniably, possibly irrevocably, a mug

Lol

 

[Meles]

I dislike the Big 3 comparisons as a general rule, it puts a lot of unnecessary pressure on players in their formative years. But if we see 2024-2025 seasons both going completely the way of Sinner (I'm thinking 3-4 Slams and 4-5 Masters at least), then we're in for a real treat.
And there's Carlos Alcaraz of course. My suspicion is he may have the higher ceiling but not be as consistent - the pieces are all there but have not been put together cleanly. Remarkable achievements for his age already

Though Rune due to his inferior return game is a lesser talent, an exhausted Rune caused a lot of trouble for Sinner and he's ended Sinner's and Alcaraz's seasons in 2022. His aggression and power seems a real asset that is getting him through a lot of tight spots. Though statistically these kind of trends never really hold and another take would be that Rune is actually much worse than his current ranking which has been propped up by unsustainable tiebreak records etc.. His lot seems to be some kind of mythical Safin type player. The Rune v Sinner QF was a tactical master class by both players.

 

[Jonas78]

Did Federer have a false dawn in 2004?

 

[Krish872007]

Though Rune due to his inferior return game is a lesser talent, an exhausted Rune caused a lot of trouble for Sinner and he's ended Sinner's and Alcaraz's seasons in 2022. His aggression and power seems a real asset that is getting him through a lot of tight spots. Though statistically these kind of trends never really hold and another take would be that Rune is actually much worse than his current ranking which has been propped up by unsustainable tiebreak records etc.. His lot seems to be some kind of mythical Safin type player. The Rune v Sinner QF was a tactical master class by both players.

Rune has the makings of becoming an excellent mover on clay tbh
If not for his mini-slump he'd already be threatening for the RG title. This MC might just push him back into the conversation

 

[Meles]

Well well, look who was right. Great call, Mel

Despite the title I'm not sure I was calling this a false dawn. Definitely a jinx thread.

 

[Meles]

Rune has the makings of becoming an excellent mover on clay tbh
If not for his mini-slump he'd already be threatening for the RG title. This MC might just push him back into the conversation

His stamina seems worse than ever (my new theory is it is the giant legs simply have too much mass for the surface area and over heat and the tight pants and ball cap don't help.) But he has a ton of power to cover it up. I think he needs to be able to grind more to break, but if he can further refine the ball bashing (with some junk) he did seem alright at the end of the Sinner match. I don't see how it can possibly work, but he was certainly harnessing his new found power very well against Sinner. I do believe this power is taking quite a toll on opponents and it might get very interesting in a best of five set match.

 

[Krish872007]

His stamina seems worse than ever (my new theory is it is the giant legs simply have too much mass for the surface area and over heat and the tight pants and ball cap don't help.) But he has a ton of power to cover it up. I think he needs to be able to grind more to break, but if he can further refine the ball bashing (with some junk) he did seem alright at the end of the Sinner match. I don't see how it can possibly work, but he was certainly harnessing his new found power very well against Sinner. I do believe this power is taking quite a toll on opponents and it might get very interesting in a best of five set match.

On the fitness side, Gunter Bresnik could actually be a super addition to the camp. But I doubt they'll get along, clash of personalities
The guy did wonders with Thiem for a few years. Ugly breakup though

 

[Meles]

Nadal vs Gaudio in the quarterfinals of RG 2004, who wins?

Imagine if Gaudio, Coria, JCF, Kuerten, Costa, Correjta, even Magnus Norman all did not go belly up and were still in their prime come 2005 for Nadal. I'm not so sure we see all those Fedal finals in that Universe. Its not just the all court players who collapsed with the tour going full poly.

 

[NaDjoFed]

No false dawn confirmed. Sinner played very well against very good opponents like Rune and Tsitsi. He is not the favourite on clay, but he is up there among the very top 3-4 players. He will competitive in Rome and Rolland Garros.

 

[Meles]

On the fitness side, Gunter Bresnik could actually be a super addition to the camp. But I doubt they'll get along, clash of personalities
The guy did wonders with Thiem for a few years. Ugly breakup though

Thiem has become a gimp and I'm pretty sure the blame lies at the feet of Gunter Bresnik. Rune needs to play half as much tennis and learn some sense like Sinner. Why on earth was he playing doubles in Monte Carlo with the defense of Munich looming next week? Rune is much worse than Thiem with the scheduling, Bresnik would be like throwing gasoline on a fire.

 

[Meles]

I guess that's why he lost the last 3 matches with Hewitt pre-2004.

You're advocating for gut? Federer was not in his prime come 2004. Like it or not Federer forced the tour to get away from full gut strings quickly and ultimately destroyed all court tennis which then became impossible to win with as everyone suddenly was Hewitt from the baseline. Hewitt had injury issues, but also his greatest strength was his baseline game on fast surfaces and that advantage went away when everyone started using poly and the baseliners took over the tour.

 

[mike danny]

You're advocating for gut? Federer was not in his prime come 2004. Like it or not Federer forced the tour to get away from full gut strings quickly and ultimately destroyed all court tennis which then became impossible to win with as everyone suddenly was Hewitt from the baseline. Hewitt had injury issues, but also his greatest strength was his baseline game on fast surfaces and that advantage went away when everyone started using poly and the baseliners took over the tour.

My point was that Federer still needed to mature and improve, it wasn't poly magically turning him into the player he became.

 

[Meles]

My point was that Federer still needed to mature and improve, it wasn't poly magically turning him into the player he became.

100%, but you sell him short because he did adapt very well while others did not. Fed was a Pat Rafter wannabe big time who fancied serve and volley tennis even. My guess is once the other top players still holding onto gut saw his incredible level in 2004 Australia that they all started thinking really hard about making the switch. A lot of retooling went on and of course younger players who'd used it much longer (Nadal and Gasquet) showed up and were wolfs among the all court sheep as well. I love baseline tennis and this was a wonderful change in the game, but it was a huge advantage to be at the cutting edge of that technology change. Federer was not really one of these wolves so to speak as he was the one all court player who really adapted well. I think in a poly free world he would have had a lesser career, but what he did was a mark of greatness. Connors, Borg, McEnroe, etc. never really sustained with Graphite rackets. Lendl might be seen as sort of an early adapter of the technology, but still groomed his game with lesser equipment. I'm not sure he really adapted. What Federer did was miraculous historically; he weathered a technology change and even prospered with many comebacks in his career; a marvel and really the true goat in many ways.

 

[mike danny]

100%, but you sell him short because he did adapt very well while others did not. Fed was a Pat Rafter wannabe big time who fancied serve and volley tennis even. My guess is once the other top players still holding onto gut saw his incredible level in 2004 Australia that they all started thinking really hard about making the switch. A lot of retooling went on and of course younger players who'd used it much longer (Nadal and Gasquet) showed up and were wolfs among the all court sheep as well. I love baseline tennis and this was a wonderful change in the game, but it was a huge advantage to be at the cutting edge of that technology change. Federer was not really one of these wolves so to speak as he was the one all court player who really adapted well. I think in a poly free world he would have had a lesser career, but what he did was a mark of greatness. Connors, Borg, McEnroe, etc. never really sustained with Graphite rackets. Lendl might be seen as sort of an early adapter of the technology, but still groomed his game with lesser equipment. I'm not sure he really adapted. What Federer did was miraculous historically; he weathered a technology change and even prospered with many comebacks in his career; a marvel and really the true goat in many ways.

From what I remember, Agassi switched in 2002 and Nalbandian changed before the 2004 AO.

Fed changed at 2002 Rome and still underperformed massively for a long time.

Let's not forget that non-poly users at that time Hewitt and Nalbandian were still beating Fed in 2002-2003 and Sampras beat poly user Agassi at the 2002 USO F.

Which leads me to believe that the difference between gut and poly isn't as big as between wood and graphite.

 

[mike danny]

100%, but you sell him short because he did adapt very well while others did not. Fed was a Pat Rafter wannabe big time who fancied serve and volley tennis even. My guess is once the other top players still holding onto gut saw his incredible level in 2004 Australia that they all started thinking really hard about making the switch. A lot of retooling went on and of course younger players who'd used it much longer (Nadal and Gasquet) showed up and were wolfs among the all court sheep as well. I love baseline tennis and this was a wonderful change in the game, but it was a huge advantage to be at the cutting edge of that technology change. Federer was not really one of these wolves so to speak as he was the one all court player who really adapted well. I think in a poly free world he would have had a lesser career, but what he did was a mark of greatness. Connors, Borg, McEnroe, etc. never really sustained with Graphite rackets. Lendl might be seen as sort of an early adapter of the technology, but still groomed his game with lesser equipment. I'm not sure he really adapted. What Federer did was miraculous historically; he weathered a technology change and even prospered with many comebacks in his career; a marvel and really the true goat in many ways.

If anything, shouldn't be Kuerten used an example since he used poly to win RG in 1997 so he was the pioneer of that string to an extent.

To this day some people still think Federer switched late to poly and he switched at 2002 Rome.

Others did adapt well to poly. Hewitt, for example, was still a top 5 player and slam contender in 2005 after he switched to poly. Injuries were the main reason for his downfall.

Roddick stayed as a top 10 player and slam contender for a long time.

 

[CHillTennis]

Well you seem to be a bit of an expert on the vacuum era so it takes one to know one I guess.

To my eyes the game and field is exceptionally strong right now with incredible depth to the field that has never been seen before.

Right. I guess that's why a 36 year old has been dominating the pro tour for the last three years.

You know, because the tour has incredible depth at the moment.

 

[Rovesciarete]

Though Rune due to his inferior return game is a lesser talent, an exhausted Rune caused a lot of trouble for Sinner and he's ended Sinner's and Alcaraz's seasons in 2022. His aggression and power seems a real asset that is getting him through a lot of tight spots. Though statistically these kind of trends never really hold and another take would be that Rune is actually much worse than his current ranking which has been propped up by unsustainable tiebreak records etc.. His lot seems to be some kind of mythical Safin type player. The Rune v Sinner QF was a tactical master class by both players.

Players like Rune or Tsitsipas have the quality of game and weight of shot to pressure the two young guns clearly ahead of the field if they play well enough. Right now the overall game-plan against both is to take the fight to them and pressure as much as possible. This can backfire horribly as we have seen in Australian for Djokovic or Medvedev in Miami but the feeling seems to be that you will lose more often if you let them dictate.

Stefanos was like Rune relying on his first strike tennis with serve plus but could not keep up the level for all the sets. RG will make it harder still.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Yep, people don't use logic think everybody is winning 5-6 slam at somewhere, Sinner and Carlos winning 5-4 at RG is laughable at best

Sinner is kind of garbage on clay (for top players standards). No matter how weak the field he will do very well to win 1 RG (which I could see him possibly doing due to a weak clay field and outright determination and overall talent, but that is it; it is similar to Seles at Wimbledon if she weren't stabbed, would have been lucky just to win 1). I agree there isn't a prospective planet both Sinner and Alcarez won 4 or 5 RG titles but that was never going to happen for Sinner on that surface anyway, which does not impede on Alcarez's chances there. Alcarez I could see if he really maximizes his potential on clay and in general, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[NeutralFan]

If anything, shouldn't be Kuerten used an example since he used poly to win RG in 1997 so he was the pioneer of that string to an extent.

To this day some people still think Federer switched late to poly and he switched at 2002 Rome.

Others did adapt well to poly. Hewitt, for example, was still a top 5 player and slam contender in 2005 after he switched to poly. Injuries were the main reason for his downfall.

Roddick stayed as a top 10 player and slam contender for a long time.

Let's be honest Hewitt was never a slam contender once Fed hits his prime.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Let's be honest Hewitt was never a slam contender once Fed hits his prime.

He was a contender IMO. He was just the contender with the least chance of beating Federer at that point, including even Roddick. Probably less than even some non contenders. But if Federer was ever taken out for him, he was definitely one of the few people left with the best chance of winning.

 

[NeutralFan]

He was a contender IMO. He was just the contender with the least chance of beating Federer at that point, including even Roddick. Probably less than even some non contenders. But if Federer was ever taken out for him, he was definitely one of the few people left with the best chance of winning.

The way he laid eggs in 2004 USO final with the worst final performance by a top Seed he was never a contender imo. He wasn't constantly losing to Fed but also to many other players.