Clay to expose Sinner false dawn? (Sinner 2024 vs Fed 2004)

How close will Sinner get to Federer's 2004 accomplishments? (up to 2 votes)

  • Sinner just comes up short (3 slams, but worse results in smaller events)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    48
  • Poll closed .
The way he laid eggs in 2004 USO final with the worst final performance by a top Seed he was never a contender imo. He wasn't constantly losing to Fed but also to many other players.

See the latter part is where you aren't entirely correct at all. In 2004-2005 Hewitt lost in 5 of the 6 non clay slams to Federer. The only one he didn't was the 2005 Australian Open final in 4 sets to Safin (after Safin had just beaten Federer in the semis). Roland Garros he wasn't a real contender at so ignoring that altogether. In non clay slams almost all his losses in 2004-2005 were to Federer, and the only one that wasn't was in the final.
 
See the latter part is where you aren't entirely correct at all. In 2004-2005 Hewitt lost in 5 of the 6 non clay slams to Federer. The only one he didn't was the 2005 Australian Open final in 4 sets to Safin (after Safin had just beaten Federer in the semis). Roland Garros he wasn't a real contender at so ignoring that altogether. In non clay slams almost all his losses in 2004-2005 were to Federer, and the only one that wasn't was in the final.

Funny how you included specific years lmao to make him look contender and then you had to exclude specific slams. Once Fed hit prime he lost to many players , also those defeats to Fed wasn't in final all the time so it's not as if he would have won against other players ffs.
 
He was a contender IMO. He was just the contender with the least chance of beating Federer at that point, including even Roddick. Probably less than even some non contenders. But if Federer was ever taken out for him, he was definitely one of the few people left with the best chance of winning.
Hewitt was done in the GS tournaments after the 2005 US Open.
He was only 24 years old.
He was never again a contender in this type of tournament, apart from a very good participation in Wimbledon 2009, when he lost in 5 sets to the eventual finalist, Andy Roddick.
:D
 
Sinner is kind of garbage on clay (for top players standards). No matter how weak the field he will do very well to win 1 RG (which I could see him possibly doing due to a weak clay field and outright determination and overall talent, but that is it; it is similar to Seles at Wimbledon if she weren't stabbed, would have been lucky just to win 1). I agree there isn't a prospective planet both Sinner and Alcarez won 4 or 5 RG titles but that was never going to happen for Sinner on that surface anyway, which does not impede on Alcarez's chances there. Alcarez I could see if he really maximizes his potential on clay and in general, but I wouldn't bet on it.
I think carlos can win 4-5 RG, what I was saying that both will not do it, one will cut down the other, I don't see a time where around same age atg won 5-5 at a slam.

Closest is still Rafa and Novak in us open but they both haven't touch 5 there
3-4 is good bet but I don't see both winning 4-5
 
I think carlos can win 4-5 RG, what I was saying that both will not do it, one will cut down the other, I don't see a time where around same age atg won 5-5 at a slam.

Closest is still Rafa and Novak in us open but they both haven't touch 5 there
3-4 is good bet but I don't see both winning 4-5
So Carlos will surpass Noles Clay career by end of Carlos Career?
 
Incredible Depth is the right word for the tour in the 2020s

The tour has sunk to incredible depths never seen before.

GLePmTbWgAE6zyH
 
Players like Rune or Tsitsipas have the quality of game and weight of shot to pressure the two young guns clearly ahead of the field if they play well enough. Right now the overall game-plan against both is to take the fight to them and pressure as much as possible. This can backfire horribly as we have seen in Australian for Djokovic or Medvedev in Miami but the feeling seems to be that you will lose more often if you let them dictate.

Stefanos was like Rune relying on his first strike tennis with serve plus but could not keep up the level for all the sets. RG will make it harder still.
Well these sycophantic umpires and officials seemed to think they should be rigging things for Sinner and Rune none to happy about:
https://x.com/holgerrune2003/status/1779063148978323740
"Holger Rune
@holgerrune2003
Meaning what @atptour
…..? Not that you gave me the best conditions in the first place having to play 2 matches the day before ending late , leaving almost no recovery time. Chair Umpire making crucial mistakes and giving wrong warning that disturbed the game. May the force be with you Jesus Christ"
The reality is the whole unsportsmanlike nonsense and delay cost Sinner the match and probably the tournament.

I expect Rune can keep it up because he has no choice; otherwise bow-legged cramping ensues.
 
Funny how you included specific years lmao to make him look contender and then you had to exclude specific slams. Once Fed hit prime he lost to many players , also those defeats to Fed wasn't in final all the time so it's not as if he would have won against other players ffs.
I think you're undervaluing Hewitt quite a lot.
 
It's really not fair to compare these eras. For one thing, Sinner is competing in probably the worst period that the men's game has seen since 1973.

Roger Federer had Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, young Nadal, Nalbandian, and Agassi to contend with.

Sinner has ancient Djokovic, Medvedev, and Alcaraz.

No comparison indeed.

Federer played Nadal and Nalbandian exactly once each in 2004 so this is misleading to claim they made up any significant portion of Federer's competition in 2004. Making this even more misleading, Nadal only won 62.5% of his matches in 2004, which is nowhere near ATG level and is a lower win percentage than anyone in today's top 10. 2004 Roddick (80% win percentage), Hewitt (79%), and Safin (69%) are matched today by 2024 Alcaraz (79%), Medvedev (79%), and Dimitrov (79%). Djokovic won 2 slams at age 36 and is at least as good as 34-year old Agassi, who won no slams at that age.

With that being said...there has never been a multi-time grand slam champion, that has lost matches to a player who is 14 years their senior, after the multi-time grand slam champion's 22nd birthday.

Not since the start of the Open era, at any rate.
At the 1989 U.S. Open, Jimmy Connors, 5 days shy of turning 37, trounced 24-year old Stefan Edberg 6-2, 6-3, 6-1. I turned that up after 2 minutes of research. I'm sure I could find similar examples examining the careers of other ATGs. By the way, Connors and Edberg went 6-6 and all but one of their matches was played after Connors turned 32 with the other one being Connors 2 weeks shy of 32.
 
At the 1989 U.S. Open, Jimmy Connors, 5 days shy of turning 37, trounced 24-year old Stefan Edberg 6-2, 6-3, 6-1. I turned that up after 2 minutes of research. I'm sure I could find similar examples examining the careers of other ATGs. By the way, Connors and Edberg went 6-6 and all but one of their matches was played after Connors turned 32 with the other one being Connors 2 weeks shy of 32.
Wow!! That's a shocker! 1989 was a solid year for Edberg, he made two finals that year. I am very surprised that he lost to Connors so easily. :oops:

Well, I stand corrected. Apparently an all-time great player has lost to a player over the age of 35, after reaching their prime years.

It's incredibly rare. But...it does happen.
 
Federer played Nadal and Nalbandian exactly once each in 2004 so this is misleading to claim they made up any significant portion of Federer's competition in 2004. Making this even more misleading, Nadal only won 62.5% of his matches in 2004, which is nowhere near ATG level and is a lower win percentage than anyone in today's top 10. 2004 Roddick (80% win percentage), Hewitt (79%), and Safin (69%) are matched today by 2024 Alcaraz (79%), Medvedev (79%), and Dimitrov (79%). Djokovic won 2 slams at age 36 and is at least as good as 34-year old Agassi, who won no slams at that age.
The reason that Djokovic won those slams is because of how bad the field is today.

If you took 2004 Andre Agassi and put him in today's game. He would win a couple of slams as well.

Roger Federer barely scraped by Agassi on his way to winning the 2004 US Open. Everyone talks about how Fed destroyed Hewitt in the final, but the truth is that he was very fortunate to get past Andre. If Andre had won that match, he almost certainly would have won the US Open that year.

Andre's ground game in 2004 was better than Roger's. What made the difference for Federer was the improved serve.
 
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I think carlos can win 4-5 RG, what I was saying that both will not do it, one will cut down the other, I don't see a time where around same age atg won 5-5 at a slam.

Closest is still Rafa and Novak in us open but they both haven't touch 5 there
3-4 is good bet but I don't see both winning 4-5
See if you are talking about RG, I disagree completely with you on that part. Sinner is nothing at RG, like I said he will be very lucky to win 1. So Sinner would not be what prevents Alcarez from winning 4-5 RG. Whether he is good enough or durable enough (or the field stops sucking so much to prevent it) is the only question.

If you were talking about the US Open I would agree.
 
The reason that Djokovic won those slams is because of how bad the field is today.

If you took 2004 Andre Agassi and put him in today's game. He would win a couple of slams as well.

Roger Federer barely scraped by Agassi on his way to winning the 2004 US Open. Everyone talks about how Fed destroyed Hewitt in the final, but the truth is that he was very fortunate to get past Andre. If Andre had won that match, he almost certainly would have won the US Open that year.

Andre's ground game in 2004 was better than Roger's. What made the difference for Federer was the improved serve.
Federer's celebration after overcoming his biggest obstacle to his first title at Flushing Meadows said it all.
:D
 
Hewitt was done in the GS tournaments after the 2005 US Open.
He was only 24 years old.
He was never again a contender in this type of tournament, apart from a very good participation in Wimbledon 2009, when he lost in 5 sets to the eventual finalist, Andy Roddick.
:D

Oh I absolutely agree. He was done as a real contender after 2005 totally. However he absolutely was still a real contender in 2004 and 2005. As long as he could avoid Federer in a draw somehow (which turned out to be tough to do) he has as good a chance as anyone else of winning. Excluding Roland Garros of course.
 
Funny how you included specific years lmao to make him look contender and then you had to exclude specific slams. Once Fed hit prime he lost to many players , also those defeats to Fed wasn't in final all the time so it's not as if he would have won against other players ffs.

I am not saying he wins all the times he loses to Federer of course. No more than 2 or 3 of those 5 if I had to guess, and even that isn't for sure. I am just saying he was a real contender. At 3 of the 4 slams he was clearly 1 of the 3 or 4 guys who had the best chance of winning in 2004 or 2005. If that isn't a real contender in your view, I don't know what is. If you are willing to say nobody but Federer was an actual contender in 2004 and 2005, except Nadal at RG in 2005, then fine by that metric Hewitt wasn't a contender, but I suspect you wouldn't say this.

As for excluding RG I thought it was fairly obvious he was never a big contender at RG, even when he was ranked #1. I don't see what is wrong with excluding a certain slam. Heck Sampras was not a real contender at RG arguably, would it be wrong to note that for him too, LOL!

I suspect you just hate Hewitt though so there is no point talking to you about this. For the record I was never a Hewitt fan, but it is wrong to say he wasn't a contender once Federer emerged when he was one of the top few guys with the best shot at winning at 6 of the 8 slams played in 2004 and 2005. Even if he had almost no chance if he actually played Federer, and would have needed someone to take Federer out for him to have a chance probably. His results in slams all combined (add RG if you want, this would still apply) were more consistent than anyone but Federer those years. He had fewer bad slam losses than Roddick, than Safin, even then Nadal in fact, even though Nadal was still clearly the 2nd best player of 2005 overall.
 
Federer played Nadal and Nalbandian exactly once each in 2004 so this is misleading to claim they made up any significant portion of Federer's competition in 2004. Making this even more misleading, Nadal only won 62.5% of his matches in 2004, which is nowhere near ATG level and is a lower win percentage than anyone in today's top 10. 2004 Roddick (80% win percentage), Hewitt (79%), and Safin (69%) are matched today by 2024 Alcaraz (79%), Medvedev (79%), and Dimitrov (79%). Djokovic won 2 slams at age 36 and is at least as good as 34-year old Agassi, who won no slams at that age.
Agassi won no slams in 2004 because the competition was just stronger. Winning pct isn't super important anyway.
At the 1989 U.S. Open, Jimmy Connors, 5 days shy of turning 37, trounced 24-year old Stefan Edberg 6-2, 6-3, 6-1. I turned that up after 2 minutes of research. I'm sure I could find similar examples examining the careers of other ATGs. By the way, Connors and Edberg went 6-6 and all but one of their matches was played after Connors turned 32 with the other one being Connors 2 weeks shy of 32.
It's a rare occurrence though, it has to be said. And Connors still won no slams after age 31.
 
Agassi won no slams in 2004 because the competition was just stronger. Winning pct isn't super important anyway.

It's a rare occurrence though, it has to be said. And Connors still won no slams after age 31.
First of all, of course, winning percentage is important. It's one of the most important stats there is because it tells you, you know, how much you win! The debate is about how strong the competition is. It's a circular argument if you say Agassi didn't perform as well due to strong competition because then you are assuming what you are trying to prove. Second, it's funny how you contradict yourself here because Connors did have strong competition after he turned 31 with the rise and peak of Lendl, Wilander, Becker, and Edberg, who make the competition in 2004 look laughable. Somehow old Agassi's lack of slams can be excused for tough competition but Connors shouldn't be despite having much tougher competition?
 
First of all, of course, winning percentage is important. It's one of the most important stats there is because it tells you, you know, how much you win! The debate is about how strong the competition is. It's a circular argument if you say Agassi didn't perform as well due to strong competition because then you are assuming what you are trying to prove. Second, it's funny how you contradict yourself here because Connors did have strong competition after he turned 31 with the rise and peak of Lendl, Wilander, Becker, and Edberg, who make the competition in 2004 look laughable. Somehow old Agassi's lack of slams can be excused for tough competition but Connors shouldn't be despite having much tougher competition?
Where did I imply that? I only spoke in relation to Djokovic.

I was only saying that, yes, Connors did score that big win over Edberg, but that doesn't make him just as tough as in his prime given his lack of slam wins.

And besides, maybe Edberg was just having an awful day which is possible looking at the scoreline.
 
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Lots of cherrypicking can be found upthread. The thing is that Connors got rekt in every late round slam loss from 1985 onwards, except 1989 USO but it was an up-and-down match with teen Agassi and there's no reason not to think Lendl wouldn't have made mincemeat of Connors anyway given their history at the time. Meanwhile Agassi was competitive on HC all the way till 2005 included, losing AO 05 in straights to Federer was an exception (as contrasted with their USO matches). Also nice citing of the Connors-Edberg H2H while omitting that Connors led 5-1 before Edberg turned 20 and Edberg went 5-1 after that (with the one loss at '89 USO, terrible match for Edberg he was sometimes prone to having, would get straight-setted in 1R by Volkov the following year too). Though it's funny he did lose sets to 38-year-old Connors in 1991 but Connors is the better player overall anyway so not too surprising.
 
Lots of cherrypicking can be found upthread. The thing is that Connors got rekt in every late round slam loss from 1985 onwards, except 1989 USO but it was an up-and-down match with teen Agassi and there's no reason not to think Lendl wouldn't have made mincemeat of Connors anyway given their history at the time. Meanwhile Agassi was competitive on HC all the way till 2005 included, losing AO 05 in straights to Federer was an exception (as contrasted with their USO matches). Also nice citing of the Connors-Edberg H2H while omitting that Connors led 5-1 before Edberg turned 20 and Edberg went 5-1 after that (with the one loss at '89 USO, terrible match for Edberg he was sometimes prone to having, would get straight-setted in 1R by Volkov the following year too). Though it's funny he did lose sets to 38-year-old Connors in 1991 but Connors is the better player overall anyway so not too surprising.
Exactly. I'd say it was more a terrible match for Edberg more than anything else and when you play badly you can lose to anyone, irrespective of age.

Of course, Fed never had such luck with Djokovic deep in his 30's, SMH.
 
I do agree 36 year old Djokovic is definitely stronger overall than 34 year old Agassi, on the simple basis that Agassi was only effective on one surface by that point- hard courts. He could barely play, let alone do well, on either grass or clay anymore. Djokovic by that point was still highly effective on any surface. As to which was better on a neutral surface like hard courts though, tough to say. The competition was infinitely harder for 30 something Agassi than it was for 30 something Djokovic.
 
I do agree 36 year old Djokovic is definitely stronger overall than 34 year old Agassi, on the simple basis that Agassi was only effective on one surface by that point- hard courts. He could barely play, let alone do well, on either grass or clay anymore. Djokovic by that point was still highly effective on any surface. As to which was better on a neutral surface like hard courts though, tough to say. The competition was infinitely harder for 30 something Agassi than it was for 30 something Djokovic.
I don't think it's fair to say that Agassi was way below Djokovic level-wise when the latter didn't face anyone like Fed in his mid 30's.
 
I don't think it's fair to say that Agassi was way below Djokovic level-wise when the latter didn't face anyone like Fed in his mid 30's.
Agreed. On hard courts. Agassi barely played, and the rare times he did was completely ineffective on both grass and clay in 2004-2006 (probably due to his compromised movement given the nature of his injuries and back problems by that point), so safe to say Djokovic is clearly ahead overall taking into account all surfaces. However I agree hard courts, level wise, there wouldn't be much in it between them, ignoring results which are largely dictated by their vastly different competition.
 
I do agree 36 year old Djokovic is definitely stronger overall than 34 year old Agassi, on the simple basis that Agassi was only effective on one surface by that point- hard courts. He could barely play, let alone do well, on either grass or clay anymore. Djokovic by that point was still highly effective on any surface. As to which was better on a neutral surface like hard courts though, tough to say. The competition was infinitely harder for 30 something Agassi than it was for 30 something Djokovic.

Agassi 04 on HC is better than Djokovic post AO 19 itself on HC, let alone 36 yo old djokovic.
 
Federer played Nadal and Nalbandian exactly once each in 2004 so this is misleading to claim they made up any significant portion of Federer's competition in 2004. Making this even more misleading, Nadal only won 62.5% of his matches in 2004, which is nowhere near ATG level and is a lower win percentage than anyone in today's top 10. 2004 Roddick (80% win percentage), Hewitt (79%), and Safin (69%) are matched today by 2024 Alcaraz (79%), Medvedev (79%), and Dimitrov (79%). Djokovic won 2 slams at age 36 and is at least as good as 34-year old Agassi, who won no slams at that age.
2004 agassi blows away 2023 djokovic on HC, let alone 2024 djoko at AO who got stomped by Sinner.

Roddick, Hewitt (&safin playing well) >Alcaraz, Med by a significant margin.

and LOLOLOL@ dimitrov of 2024.
 
Sinner is having an historic 2024 season. Only 2 losses were to Alcaraz and Tsitsipas. Both matches were very winnable.
He has had a near perfect season. There is no false dawn. And given the injury-prone Alcaraz and the fading Medvedev (several straight losses to Sinner),
the only concern is whether Sinner will have any serious competition.

At the moment, the Sinner train is unstoppable.
 
Sinner is having an historic 2024 season. Only 2 losses were to Alcaraz and Tsitsipas. Both matches were very winnable.
He has had a near perfect season. There is no false dawn. And given the injury-prone Alcaraz and the fading Medvedev (several straight losses to Sinner),
the only concern is whether Sinner will have any serious competition.

At the moment, the Sinner train is unstoppable.
It’s April. We’ve had one major — the AO. :rolleyes: Let’s see what it looks like after the USO.

giphy.gif
 
2004 agassi blows away 2023 djokovic on HC, let alone 2024 djoko at AO who got stomped by Sinner.
Ridiculous statement. Djokovic lost 3 times on hard court in all of 2023 and that was to Sinner twice and Medvedev once. Agassi lost on hard court 10 times in 2004 to the likes of #21 Mardy Fish, #21 Augustin Calleri, #91 Tommy Haas, #61 Jurgen Melzer, #124 Gilles Muller, and #42 Thomas Johansson, but he blows away Djokovic? That's a laughable claim.

Roddick, Hewitt (&safin playing well) >Alcaraz, Med by a significant margin.
Nah, Alcaraz is already a better player than Roddick and Hewitt who are only a bit better than Medvedev. That Safin only qualifies when "playing well" is a big caveat.
 
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Ridiculous statement. Djokovic lost 3 times on hard court in all of 2023 and that was to Sinner twice and Medvedev once. Agassi lost on hard court 10 times in 2004 to the likes of #21 Mardy Fish, #21 Augustin Calleri, #91 Tommy Haas, #61 Jurgen Melzer, #124 Gilles Muller, and #42 Thomas Johansson, but he blows away Djokovic? That's a laughable claim.

Agassi of AO 2004 would beat djoko of AO 20/21, let alone AO 23 djoko (it took peak level safin 5 frickin sets to bring him down) and agassi of USO 04 (it took peak fed 5 sets to bring him down, granted wind was a factor) is significantly better than djokovic of USO 23 - its not even close.

agassi had more losses on HC in 2004 because the field in 2004 was much deeper than in 2023.
fish, haas, johansson have been top 10 at some time. calleri, mueller can get hot as well.

they are not feckless, skilless players like those of the rao-dimi-nishi and med-zed-tpas generation who cry and crumble at the sight of taking a set of ancient djokovic (or nadal or even fed)

what is ridiculously laughable is implying 2023 field is within 10 country miles of 2004.

djokovic was absent for like 4 of the HC masters in 2023.
lets not forget the joke of a YEC field in 2023 with frickin Ruud in the final.

Nah, Alcaraz is already a better player than Roddick and Hewitt who are only a bit better than Medvedev. That Safin only qualifies when "playing well" is a big caveat.

nope.
Alcaraz is significantly worse than both Roddick and Hewitt as of now.
Just because he's in inflation era doesn't mean he's better.
Both are clearly or significantly better than Alcaraz at AO, Wim and USO. Only at RG, Alcaraz is better so far. and he blew his chance in RG 23.
 
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Nah, Alcaraz is already a better player than Roddick and Hewitt who are only a bit better than Medvedev. That Safin only qualifies when "playing well" is a big caveat.
That statement is interesting only in that Alcaraz hasn't even yet proven he is that much better than Medvedev (he is definitely better, but of yet not that much better, although in all likelihood he will end up being). So even your judgement that has Roddick and Hewitt a bit better than Medvedev, would not put Alcarez as significantly better than Hewitt and Roddick.
 
Come to think of it, as the topic is mostly hard courts, I think you could atleast argue Medvedev up to now is better than Alcarez on hard courts. He won a US Open with Djokovic in it, while Alcarez won one without him. He lost 3 other hard court slam finals in 5 sets, while Alcarez wasn't ever close to winning another yet. And Medvedev soundly outperformed Alcarez at the last 2 hard court slams. For the record I am a huge fan of Alcarez, and can't stand Medvedev, which is obvious just by scanning my comments on both, but being objective this is very much the truth.

So even if I agreed Hewitt and Roddick at their peaks were just a bit better than Medvedev, especialy accounting for Medvedev's extreme mental weakness in big matches, which I don't agree with at all, this certainly would not show Alcarez as being clearly better than Hewitt and Roddick on hard courts or even in general at all. Conceding Roddick and Hewitt are better than Medvedev, is already showing Alcarez is not clearly superior, if at all.
 
Agassi of AO 2004 would beat djoko of AO 20/21, let alone AO 23 djoko (it took peak level safin 5 frickin sets to bring him down) and agassi of USO 04 (it took peak fed 5 sets to bring him down, granted wind was a factor) is significantly better than djokovic of USO 23 - its not even close.

agassi had more losses on HC in 2004 because the field in 2004 was much deeper than in 2023.
fish, haas, johansson have been top 10 at some time. calleri, mueller can get hot as well.

they are not feckless, skilless players like those of the rao-dimi-nishi and med-zed-tpas generation who cry and crumble at the sight of taking a set of ancient djokovic (or nadal or even fed)

what is ridiculously laughable is implying 2023 field is within 10 country miles of 2004.

djokovic was absent for like 4 of the HC masters in 2023.
lets not forget the joke of a YEC field in 2023 with frickin Ruud in the final.



nope.
Alcaraz is significantly worse than both Roddick and Hewitt as of now.
Just because he's in inflation era doesn't mean he's better.
Both are clearly or significantly better than Alcaraz at AO, Wim and USO. Only at RG, Alcaraz is better so far. and he blew his chance in RG 23.
You're losing credibility by the second. Raonic, Dimitrov, Nishikori, Medvedev, Zverev, and Tsitsipas, who have 5 YEC, an Olympic Gold, and 15 Masters titles between them have no skill compared to Fish, Haas, Johansson, Calleri (never broke the top 15), and Mueller (never broke the top 20), who have zero YEC and 2 Masters titles between them? Just no. Calleri and Mueller barely beat more players than they lost to over their entire careers, but they are supposed to be strong opponents while Raonic, Dimitrov, Nishikori, Medvedev, Zverev, and Tsitsipas are all trash? Just stop.
Alcaraz has better touch and better movement than both Roddick and Hewitt while equalling if not surpassing both in strokes off either wing. Roddick just has the better serve. Alcaraz is the better player.
Come to think of it, as the topic is mostly hard courts, I think you could atleast argue Medvedev up to now is better than Alcarez on hard courts. He won a US Open with Djokovic in it, while Alcarez won one without him. He lost 3 other hard court slam finals in 5 sets, while Alcarez wasn't ever close to winning another yet. And Medvedev soundly outperformed Alcarez at the last 2 hard court slams. For the record I am a huge fan of Alcarez, and can't stand Medvedev, which is obvious just by scanning my comments on both, but being objective this is very much the truth.

So even if I agreed Hewitt and Roddick at their peaks were just a bit better than Medvedev, especialy accounting for Medvedev's extreme mental weakness in big matches, which I don't agree with at all, this certainly would not show Alcarez as being clearly better than Hewitt and Roddick on hard courts or even in general at all. Conceding Roddick and Hewitt are better than Medvedev, is already showing Alcarez is not clearly superior, if at all.
First of all, the Alcaraz comparison is not only regarding hard courts and I am not isolating performances to slams. That is something you just artificially imposed, so your argument of wanting to look at just some small subset of play is moot. The comparison is about these 4 players. I just explained why Alcaraz is a better player than Roddick and Hewitt. Alcaraz is 4-2 against Medvedev with one of those losses being 3 years ago before Alcaraz hit his prime. Alcaraz, by the way, is 3-1 against Medvedev on hard courts.
 
You're losing credibility by the second. Raonic, Dimitrov, Nishikori, Medvedev, Zverev, and Tsitsipas, who have 5 YEC, an Olympic Gold, and 15 Masters titles between them have no skill compared to Fish, Haas, Johansson, Calleri (never broke the top 15), and Mueller (never broke the top 20), who have zero YEC and 2 Masters titles between them? Just no. Calleri and Mueller barely beat more players than they lost to over their entire careers, but they are supposed to be strong opponents while Raonic, Dimitrov, Nishikori, Medvedev, Zverev, and Tsitsipas are all trash? Just stop.

maybe learn to read better. I was comparing the whole generations.

the lower rung of players in zed-med-tpas and rao-nishi-dimi gen are nowhere as dangerous as fish, calleri, mueller etc. that was my point.
who are those lower rung players actually dangerous or capable of causing upsets in those 2 generations?

the actual tier comparisons would be hewitt, roddick, safin, ferrero >>>> rao-nishi-dimi or zed-med-tpas.

you talking about credibility is hilarious.
delusional to think 23/24 is within 10 miles of 04 and more jokes below
Alcaraz has better touch and better movement than both Roddick and Hewitt while equalling if not surpassing both in strokes off either wing. Roddick just has the better serve. Alcaraz is the better player.
lol @ Alcaraz having better movement than Hewitt. hewitt's clearly more sure footed and is so clearly better on the run. Alcaraz flashy gets/runs doesn't mean he's the better mover.
and LMAO at alcaraz having an equal/better bh than hewitt. hewitt's is significantly better.
hewitt is obviously the clearly better returner

roddick had a better fh than Alcaraz at his peak outside of clay. and his serve is a massive massive advantage.

both are better, more proven big match, level players than Alcaraz.
Alcaraz had his chance to prove in RG 23 and he failed big time.

Wim 23, prime hewitt/roddick would have made mincemeat of that djoko. Alcaraz struggled to get past him. (granted 5th set was nice play including clutch)
 
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maybe learn to read better. I was comparing the whole generations.

the lower rung of players in zed-med-tpas and rao-nishi-dimi gen are nowhere as dangerous as fish, calleri, mueller etc. that was my point.
who are those lower rung players actually dangerous or capable of causing upsets in those 2 generations?

the actual tier comparisons would be hewitt, roddick, safin, ferrero >>>> rao-nishi-dimi or zed-med-tpas.
You just made my case for me. 2023 Djokovic didn't lose to any of the top-rung players you mentioned except for Medvedev in one match and went 2-1 against him in 2023. 2004 Agassi lost to all of those lower-rung players. Hence 2023 Djokovic > 2004 Agassi.

delusional to think 23/24 is within 10 miles of 04 and more jokes below

lol @ Alcaraz having better movement than Hewitt. hewitt's clearly more sure footed and is so clearly better on the run. Alcaraz flashy gets/runs doesn't mean he's the better mover.
and LMAO at alcaraz having an equal/better bh than hewitt. hewitt's is significantly better.
hewitt is obviously the clearly better returner
Nah, Alcaraz is faster and his flashy gets indeed shows he is better on the run than Hewitt.
2023 Alcaraz return points won: 42%. 2023 Alcaraz return games won: 32%.
2004 Hewitt return points won: 42%. 2004 Hewitt return games won: 32%.
Looks pretty even to me, far from "obvious." Oh, and Roddick himself has repeatedly stated that today's players are better than players were in his era.

roddick had a better fh than Alcaraz at his peak outside of clay. and his serve is a massive massive advantage.

both are better, more proven big match, level players than Alcaraz.
Alcaraz had his chance to prove in RG 23 and he failed big time.
Alcaraz is 2-0 in slam finals. Hewitt was 2-2. Roddick was 1-4. In Masters finals, Alcaraz is 5-1. Hewitt was 2-5. Roddick was 5-4. So far, it's clear that Alcaraz is the better big-match player.
 
You just made my case for me. 2023 Djokovic didn't lose to any of the top-rung players you mentioned except for Medvedev in one match and went 2-1 against him in 2023. 2004 Agassi lost to all of those lower-rung players. Hence 2023 Djokovic > 2004 Agassi.


Nah, Alcaraz is faster and his flashy gets indeed shows he is better on the run than Hewitt.
2023 Alcaraz return points won: 42%. 2023 Alcaraz return games won: 32%.
2004 Hewitt return points won: 42%. 2004 Hewitt return games won: 32%.
Looks pretty even to me, far from "obvious." Oh, and Roddick himself has repeatedly stated that today's players are better than players were in his era.


Alcaraz is 2-0 in slam finals. Hewitt was 2-2. Roddick was 1-4. In Masters finals, Alcaraz is 5-1. Hewitt was 2-5. Roddick was 5-4. So far, it's clear that Alcaraz is the better big-match player.

Lol at comparing Hewitt to Alcaraz.
 
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