Clay to expose Sinner false dawn? (Sinner 2024 vs Fed 2004)
- Thread starter Meles
- Start date
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
DSH
Bionic Poster
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
DSH
Bionic Poster
If both are healthy, it is possible that there will be confrontations between them in the next Major tournaments.I like how you enjoy smaller happiness
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
DSH
Bionic Poster
Get ready for what's coming to your idol when he faces the boy wonder in the Majors tournaments.
DSH
Bionic Poster
DSH
Bionic Poster
DSH
Bionic Poster
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
abmk
Bionic Poster
upset matches are different from matches vs top players. (happen in earlier rounds and less expected). 23 djokovic waltzes his way to the semi/final due to lack of those guys.
agassi was beating clearly superior players than players like med, alcaraz -> hewitt/roddick in cincy 04 and it took 5 sets from peak safin and peak fed to beat him.
those versions of safin/fed would have beaten 2023 djokovic handily.
2004 agassi > 2023 agassi on HC and its not even close.
faster does not equal better movement. just because monfils is faster than djokovic doesn't mean he's a better mover. footwork, balance, anticipation all matter for movement. Overall Hewitt the clearly better mover for anyone who knows his/her tennis.
considering the sh*t field in 2023 and Alcaraz playing more on clay than Hewitt, Hewitt's stats are clearly better.
I mean you gotta be ignorant/blind to think they are equal return wise at primes.
slam SFs/QFs are big matches too. Alcaraz has lost twice to Z in slams now (Z's only 2 top 10 wins in slams), crumbled vs djoko in RG 23 semi, lost to med in USO 23 semi when he was favorite and had thrashed him in the previous slam.
and hewitt/roddick would be laughing at Ruud in a slam final and would easily beat Wim 23 djokovic on grass.
hewitt's slam final losses were to peak fed and peak safin. roddick's were to peak/prime fed.
as far as Alcaraz in masters final is concerned, lol, he's faced ruud (lol), crap form zverev and med, struff on clay (ok, Struff played decent), lost to djoko and won vs ok Med. ok, alcaraz played well in 4 out those 6, but hasnt' faced good competition in even one of them. Djoko was merely decent in Cincy 23 final and should've lost.
you throwing out numbers without context just makes you show yourself as more and more ignorant. I mean a 5th grader could google and get those numbers.
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zvelf
Hall of Fame
Your arguments are all circular and just assert what you are trying to prove. You can't just hand-wave Agassi's many losses to lesser players away. 2023 Djokovic is not losing to #21 Mardy Fish, #21 Augustin Calleri, #91 Tommy Haas, #61 Jurgen Melzer, #124 Gilles Muller, and #42 Thomas Johansson. Djokovic had zero losses to players outside the top 10 on HC while going 13-3 against the top 10 on HC. Djokovic only lost to Medvedev and current-level Sinner. Just because Agassi had a high level in two losing efforts in 2004 against your fave Federer and Safin, you mistakenly believe Agassi could play that level in every 2004 match. No, on average, 2023 Djokovic's level was definitely higher.
abmk
Bionic Poster
agassi 04 was in top form beating Hewitt+roddick in cincy. was in top form in IW also.
was playing well in Madrid also.
was in top form in AO and USO throughout, not just those 5 set losses.
slams are the most important aspect. those versions of agassi would easily beat djokovic of 23. that's the most important aspect.
even if djokovic was a little more consistent on hard accounting for differences between the fields, it pales in comparison to the importance of slam forms and their top levels
13 prime djokovic lost to haas badly in one of djoko's favorite courts Miami, but 2023 djokovic won't? and lets not forget the b2b losses in Halle 09 and Wim 09.
Johansson is a slam winner, FFS. don't forget.
djokovic lost to melzer from 2 sets to love up in Bo5, but no chance of upset in Bo3? cool story, bro
don't forget djokovic 23 skipped Indian Wells, Miami and Canada - all 3 of which he hasn't won after 2016.
its obvious to anyone with some tennis knowledge and observation that tennis in 2004 >> tennis in 2023 and it isn't even remotely close. comparing 2023 to 2004 is like comparing a broken down car to a very good one.
quality in 2023 was sh*t for most part. 23 djokovic wouldn't probably win a single slam in 2001-2015 except for maybe in 2002. he won friggin 3 in 2023 - which is a joke.
open your eyes. wake up instead of bringing in numbers without context - essentially useless and potentially misleading . and stop ignoring Alcaraz QF/SF losses in slams. stop ignoring footwork/balance/anticipation for movement.
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Meles
Bionic Poster
Might be more like many days if Nadal wins RG and decides to play Wimbledon.
Meles
Bionic Poster
No sense bringing reality to the proceedings. Sampras later in his career was quite poor, but pulled out some big wins. I suppose one might claim the same of Agassi. I'm pretty sure if you transported Agassi 2004 to 2023 a whole lot of players would be beating him in big matches, not just Djokovic.
Z.Qinwen is my hero
Rookie
Anyone else remember this thread?
Yeah... me neither.
Yeah... me neither.
Us
I am once again posting this meme
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
In the long run these stats will matter and yield better results
Agreed on this bit. Long run, he will surely make some great results.
In the long run, Alcaraz will be Sinner's age too. We have seen glimpses of a robust, rock-solid Raz on the greatest stages already.
Wait and watch.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
RS
Bionic Poster
No need. Other people have taken over the role.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
Rovesciarete
Hall of Fame
Obviously there was a true dawn, hello dominating number 1. Still it is fascinating how well he did on clay against the top 50*, but how little he played there over the last three seasons. Quite some people will be in for quite a surprise in the next years, just as they were on hardcourt.
*Have been using the top 50 as a category fairly often, because it balances the opponent's strenght better, yet still offers a decent sample size. Djokovic and Alcaraz have clearly been better than Sinner against the elite.
| Rk | Player | M | DR | TPW% | TB W% | TB/S | S W% | G W% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3 | Carlos Alcaraz [ESP] | 48 | 1.21 | 53.3% | 60.0% | 19.4% | 75.2% | 57.6% |
| 1 | Jannik Sinner [ITA] | 24 | 1.20 | 53.3% | 44.4% | 13.8% | 63.1% | 56.5% |
| 7 | Novak Djokovic [SRB] | 35 | 1.17 | 53.1% | 83.3% | 18.6% | 70.1% | 55.2% |
| 11 | Stefanos Tsitsipas [GRE] | 46 | 1.14 | 52.5% | 53.8% | 11.7% | 65.8% | 55.8% |
| 6 | Casper Ruud [NOR] | 54 | 1.13 | 52.2% | 71.4% | 14.5% | 65.5% | 54.2% |
| 42 | Jan Lennard Struff [GER] | 23 | 1.12 | 52.0% | 63.6% | 18.0% | 62.3% | 53.7% |
| 8 | Andrey Rublev [RUS] | 31 | 1.12 | 51.9% | 50.0% | 16.7% | 59.5% | 53.7% |
| 2 | Alexander Zverev [GER] | 41 | 1.10 | 51.6% | 66.7% | 13.5% | 61.3% | 52.5% |
| 4 | Taylor Fritz [USA] | 24 | 1.04 | 50.9% | 44.4% | 14.5% | 48.4% | 50.9% |
| 5 | Daniil Medvedev [RUS] | 21 | 1.05 | 50.9% | 83.3% | 11.8% | 60.8% | 50.8% |
*Have been using the top 50 as a category fairly often, because it balances the opponent's strenght better, yet still offers a decent sample size. Djokovic and Alcaraz have clearly been better than Sinner against the elite.
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nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Sinner needs to be more active on clay. He has played 5 full seasons and still hasn't played a lot of top 20 players.Obviously there was a true dawn, hello dominating number 1. Still it is fascinating how well he did on clay against the top 50*, but how little he played there over the last three seasons. Quite some people will be in for quite a surprise in the next years, just as they were on hardcourt.
Rk Player 3 Carlos Alcaraz [ESP] 1 Jannik Sinner [ITA] 7 Novak Djokovic [SRB] 11 Stefanos Tsitsipas [GRE] 6 Casper Ruud [NOR] 42 Jan Lennard Struff [GER] 8 Andrey Rublev [RUS] 2 Alexander Zverev [GER] 4 Taylor Fritz [USA] 5 Daniil Medvedev [RUS]
*Have been using the top 50 as a catergory fairly often, because it balances the opponent's strenght better, yet still offers a decent sample size. Djokovic and Alcaraz have clearly been better than Sinner against the elite.
In last 2 years, just 8 matches vs top 20. Djokovic probably had 8 matches vs fedal in 2008/09 combined.
So sinner is lacking big time on clay matches. How he matches up vs ruud tsitsipas musetti Zverev alcaraz rune , a lot can change when he faces them frequently.
GRASScaraz
Hall of Fame
Sinner is overrated on grass, better on clay
Rovesciarete
Hall of Fame
Yeah, he needs more high-level clay matches. Crazy to think how few matches he played also in Rome in the last three years.
Aabye5
Talk Tennis Guru
Still, that could flip next year. His power is blunted on clay. Should be more so on grass courts.
