Clubs closing thread.

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time_fly

Hall of Fame
We will lose good nurses and doctors over this. We will lose grocery clerks. We will lose delivery people. All because some of you can't stand to stay indoors. It's a critical moment. We either beat this back now or we all become the next Italy.
Does it occur to you that many traditional causes of premature death would be substantially reduced long term if we simply order everyone to stay indoors and stop working permanently? Should we do it? Discuss.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Helps build the immune system which fends off the virus.

Can you imagine the Founding Fathers ordering businesses to close? They'd be appalled at what they see today.
No they would have burned women and slaves at the stake for bringing the plague of God down upon us with their pagan witchcraft. Germ theory of disease wouldn't have been developed until Louis Pasteur and Robert Koch came along in the mid 1800's.

TBH they would have been very aggressive with quarantines as was the practice for small pox. Well they didn't understand germs very well, they did understand infectious spread.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Does it occur to you that many traditional causes of premature death would be substantially reduced long term if we simply order everyone to stay indoors and stop working permanently? Should we do it? Discuss.
No because those other things like accidents and other infections happen at a rate the health system can handle. And they are a life long risk rather than something like this which is going to be a several months thing.

I've never been fussed about the coronavirus death rate. It's the rapid rate at which cases present to the health system in unmitigated infection. It leads to more deaths than need to happen. It infects health care workers potentially taking critical people out of the health system. It means people with other treatable conditions can't get their health care.
 

SpaceAce42

Banned
lol CNSNEWS is the epitome of fake, nothing but birthers, truthers and now corona hoaxers
 

Brand77

New User
I applaud you for trying to convince others Dartagnan. And you get even more kudos for working in healthcare.(y)(y)(y)(y)

For some reason people seem hesitant to adopt a "better safe than sorry" mentality when it comes to this outbreak. And they certainly don’t want to limit themselves beyond what the authorities are telling them. Luckily we are still allowed to go outside for a walk or bikeride (I live in the Netherlands), so people see no problem with doing their weekly mountainbike trip or speed along on their roadbike at 40kph (with 5 others wheel to wheel). But what if you fall? Will you go to the hospital with your broken wrist and put an additional burden on the healthcare system? Same goes for tennis. Granted, most injuries are minor and the chance that it happens to you is obviously very small, but multiply it by millions of Americans and it becomes a real possibility. And will those small injuries break the system? Highly unlikely, but I sure wouldn’t want to be the reason that a doctor/nurse has to extend their 14hour shift for another 30 minutes just because I was bored. And then they are greeted with empty shelves in the supermarket after their shift because some people are hoarding stuff.

There are pictures and videos coming from the hospitals where they are basically begging us to stay at home. Even without all the rules/laws and loopholes; aren’t those messages themselves reason enough to sacrifice a bit of personal freedom?

Oh and please reconsider universal healthcare. It’s not perfect, but it works.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
It's interesting that people decrying the harsh measures really don't have an alternative plan. I get that you should be angry that the government dropped the ball with preparedness and testing. But after that failure, what are the alternatives to draconian measures to mitigate? Do you just keep everything going until everyone is sick, many of your elderly are dead, health care workers are suffering PTSD or sick themselves, hospitals are over run, panic reaches an all time high, etc. The system cannot handle 30 million sick people all at once. It would be a catastrophe of epic proportions.

I'm just not seeing a lot of great alternatives out there once this thing starts spreading wildly in the community. I don't think any of us believe a 4-8% death rate is acceptable once the system is over run.
If more government is not the answer, in what way is less government the answer? Is private industry going to bail out the health care system? Is for profit medicine going to look after the most vulnerable? Likely not. It's precisely for these moments in history that you have government and all you can do is hope they rise to the task. If not, God help us all.
 

jonestim

Hall of Fame
There are pictures and videos coming from the hospitals where they are basically begging us to stay at home. Even without all the rules/laws and loopholes; aren’t those messages themselves reason enough to sacrifice a bit of personal freedom?

Oh and please reconsider universal healthcare. It’s not perfect, but it works.
I just watched a press conference from our local Hospital. He too was begging people to stay home. He said they are actively trying to double their capacity by putting two people in many of the rooms and putting beds in parts of the hospital that don't usually have them.

He was then asked if that would be enough capacity for the projections. He replied that it would be a stretch if everyone complies with the stay at home order. If people do not comply then they will be massively overloaded. Overloaded = more deaths.
 

time_fly

Hall of Fame
And they are a life long risk rather than something like this which is going to be a several months thing.
SARS-Cov-2 isn't several months. It's forever. Most epidemiologists whose articles I've read expect this to become one more endemic seasonal respiratory virus like H1N1 flu that we don't shut down the country for. Everyone will exposed eventually. If you keep everyone locked down too tightly for months, not only do you destroy the livelihood of many of them, you just postpone when they will get it. We need to protect the elderly, we need to put more strict, temporary measures in place in dense urban areas with the biggest outbreaks, we need to distance and disinfect more carefully than we used to ... and we need to get back to having people live productive lives.

We cannot afford to close huge swaths of the economy for months, sending millions into unemployment and debt. Those social conditions are their own type of contagion and will last longer and be worse for many overall than the chest cold they are likely to get from the virus.
 
SARS-Cov-2 isn't several months. It's forever. Most epidemiologists whose articles I've read expect this to become one more endemic seasonal respiratory virus like H1N1 flu that we don't shut down the country for. Everyone will exposed eventually. If you keep everyone locked down too tightly for months, not only do you destroy the livelihood of many of them, you just postpone when they will get it. We need to protect the elderly, we need to put more strict, temporary measures in place in dense urban areas with the biggest outbreaks, we need to distance and disinfect more carefully than we used to ... and we need to get back to having people live productive lives.

We cannot afford to close huge swaths of the economy for months, sending millions into unemployment and debt. Those social conditions are their own type of contagion and will last longer and be worse for many overall than the chest cold they are likely to get from the virus.
It's a tough tightrope to walk and it's possible that there is no solution that fully satisfies all 3 criteria:

- Putting in enough restrictions to lower R0 to the point where it doesn't overwhelm the health care system
- Not crashing the economy
- Not relaxing restrictions too soon and causing a secondary spread [and from what I understand, the 2nd wave of the Spanish flu was much more deadly than the 1st; I think it had mutated]

We like to think we can chart a middle course but not every problem has an ideal solution.

And that's assuming that we have all of the information up-front: we likely won't. And some of it will be contradictory.
 

Cloister

Rookie
SARS-Cov-2 isn't several months. It's forever. Most epidemiologists whose articles I've read expect this to become one more endemic seasonal respiratory virus like H1N1 flu that we don't shut down the country for. Everyone will exposed eventually. If you keep everyone locked down too tightly for months, not only do you destroy the livelihood of many of them, you just postpone when they will get it. We need to protect the elderly, we need to put more strict, temporary measures in place in dense urban areas with the biggest outbreaks, we need to distance and disinfect more carefully than we used to ... and we need to get back to having people live productive lives.

We cannot afford to close huge swaths of the economy for months, sending millions into unemployment and debt. Those social conditions are their own type of contagion and will last longer and be worse for many overall than the chest cold they are likely to get from the virus.
Yes, flu kills a lot of people every year. It sickens tens of millions and sends loads of people to the hospital. And our health care system has developed to be able to handle a reasonably normal flu season along with all the other "normal" stuff. Now we're throwing another major virus, potentially more deadly, ON TOP OF ALL THAT. That's what the system that exists now, today, can't handle. Longer term we can build it up. We can't build it up in a few weeks.
 

Nate7-5

Semi-Pro
I live in Omaha, NE about 3 blocks from one of the top biopreparedness/quarantine hospitals in the country and thankfully we only have 65 cases in our state currently. Crowds over 10 people are not allowed. Our 2 large city-run tennis complexes (indoor/outdoor) were shut down. However, Im going to play with my g/f at a nice private club tomorrow that has 5 blue courts. Really looking forward to it after being stuck in the house most of the time and starting to work from home.

They need to keep courts open for people so we can get some exercise and not go crazy during this time. If its not an indoor facility, isnt it a somewhat socially distant sport anyway?
 

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
More horses and bunnies outside today than people in our neck-of-the-woods/world.
Kids still running.. Adults cycling. Nephew sang at the Vatican a month ago, came back ill. Ok now, fam accompanied him, seem fine. Strung two racquets for a friend, wonder when he will use them?
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
We like to think we can chart a middle course but not every problem has an ideal solution.
Maybe this is our Kobayashi Maru test.


SARS-Cov-2 isn't several months. It's forever.
Not necessarily. SARS and MERS were both coronaviruses that mutated down to less virulent forms over time. COVID-19 is similar to SARS in structure and could very well do the same thing. So predicting what it will do in the long run is hard. May mutate to a less virulent form. Mankind may build up herd immunity. A vaccine or effective treatment may be developed.

What the health care system is asking for is time. If the economy cannot provide that then the Western World has tough choices ahead. Again it may be a Kobayashi Maru type situation. But its not a simulation this time.
 

vex

Hall of Fame
I am absolutely convinced the highest risk we all face is going to the grocery store. It's a frightening place these days. I gloved and masked to get some fresh produce today and was shocked at how poorly social distancing was managed.

But food is a necessity. I can get exercise safer ways than tennis. I struggle to get food safer ways than going to the grocery store (I can't farm or hunt worth crap and delivery services are not taking new customers due to delays).

As a health care worker I'm trying to set an good example of social distancing. I walk 4 feet away from my wife when out. Wear gloves and cover my face in public spaces like grocery stores. Wash hands frequently. Clean surfaces around the house frequently. Manage my patients from home as much as possible.
Only walk or cycle as exercise outlets and do it at less busy times of day.

During mitigation, everyone you see is a potential viral vector of death. This is Russian Roulette. Better to have fewer bullets in the chamber.
Nailed it
 

vex

Hall of Fame
Maybe this is our Kobayashi Maru test.




Not necessarily. SARS and MERS were both coronaviruses that mutated down to less virulent forms over time. COVID-19 is similar to SARS in structure and could very well do the same thing. So predicting what it will do in the long run is hard. May mutate to a less virulent form. Mankind may build up herd immunity. A vaccine or effective treatment may be developed.

What the health care system is asking for is time. If the economy cannot provide that then the Western World has tough choices ahead. Again it may be a Kobayashi Maru type situation. But its not a simulation this time.
Man I hope you’re right!
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I applaud you for trying to convince others Dartagnan. And you get even more kudos for working in healthcare.(y)(y)(y)(y)

For some reason people seem hesitant to adopt a "better safe than sorry" mentality when it comes to this outbreak. And they certainly don’t want to limit themselves beyond what the authorities are telling them. Luckily we are still allowed to go outside for a walk or bikeride (I live in the Netherlands), so people see no problem with doing their weekly mountainbike trip or speed along on their roadbike at 40kph (with 5 others wheel to wheel). But what if you fall? Will you go to the hospital with your broken wrist and put an additional burden on the healthcare system? Same goes for tennis. Granted, most injuries are minor and the chance that it happens to you is obviously very small, but multiply it by millions of Americans and it becomes a real possibility. And will those small injuries break the system? Highly unlikely, but I sure wouldn’t want to be the reason that a doctor/nurse has to extend their 14hour shift for another 30 minutes just because I was bored. And then they are greeted with empty shelves in the supermarket after their shift because some people are hoarding stuff.

There are pictures and videos coming from the hospitals where they are basically begging us to stay at home. Even without all the rules/laws and loopholes; aren’t those messages themselves reason enough to sacrifice a bit of personal freedom?

Oh and please reconsider universal healthcare. It’s not perfect, but it works.
Well . . .

I disagree that it is not possible to be too safe.

I think people should go outside and participate in whatever exercise they can do while maintaining social distance. In my area, at least.

Might I fall and hurt myself on a run, thereby burdening the health care system? Yes. Might I slip in the shower, fall down the stairs, burn myself on the stove, thereby burdening the health care system? Yes. After all, a lot of accidents occur in the home, so I think it is a bit of an overreaction to suggest sheltering in place should happen for that reason.

When the rain stops and the weather warms a bit, I absolutely plan to work in my yard and get lots of outdoor exercise. That will keep me healthy, help me maintain my weight and avoid slipping into a need for prescription meds, and help me maintain my sanity.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I think people should go outside and participate in whatever exercise they can do while maintaining social distance. In my area, at least.
Really depends on your population density. In a high population density it is virtually impossible for everyone to go outside and maintain social distance. In lower population density, lots more opportunities.
We just had a nice weekend here in Vancouver and it was a disaster of people all out "getting fresh air" and crowding themselves into parks, beaches, bike paths. It lead to every park and beach being closed because there isn't enough social distance.

Get out in your yard. Go for walks/runs in your neighborhood, preferably at non-peak hours. Fresh air is good for you. But be mindful of how crowded things are and if too many people are out on your street or in your parks, go back home.
 

Erlang

Rookie
Denver's stay-at-home order finally came down yesterday evening. They chained and locked up all the public courts in the city ahead of time. The courts in one of the parks doesn't have a lockable gate so they just put a chain and a sign. Naturally, players ignored them and were playing anyway.

We drove down to parks in a different county where the stay-at-home won't come into effect until tomorrow. The courts were packed and there were lines by the gates. Some members of the club were there. It seemed like everyone decided to have one big tennis bash before we are locked up for months on end. A lot of activity in the parks themselves too.

I also got an email from the big tennis shop in town saying they'll be open until minute the lockdown comes into effect in their county (8am tomorrow), and telling us it's the "last chance to load up before the shutdown."
 
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SpaceAce42

Banned
Denver's stay-at-home order finally came down yesterday evening. They chained and locked up all the public courts in the city ahead of time. The courts in one of the parks doesn't have a lockable gate so they just put a chain and a sign. Naturally, players ignored them and were playing anyway.

We drove down to parks in a different county where the stay-at-home won't come into effect until tomorrow. The courts were packed and there were lines by the gates. Some members of the club were there. It seemed like everyone decided to have one big tennis bash before we are locked up for months on end. A lot of activity in the parks themselves too.

I also got an email from the big tennis shop in town saying they'll be open until minute the lockdown comes into effect in their county (8am tomorrow), and telling us it's the "last chance to load up before the shutdown."
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
when they open the courts again it's going to look like the US Open on steroids everywhere. That's the 2nd wave of the virus
 

vex

Hall of Fame
Denver's stay-at-home order finally came down yesterday evening. They chained and locked up all the public courts in the city ahead of time. The courts in one of the parks doesn't have a lockable gate so they just put a chain and a sign. Naturally, players ignored them and were playing anyway.

We drove down to parks in a different county where the stay-at-home won't come into effect until tomorrow. The courts were packed and there were lines by the gates. Some members of the club were there. It seemed like everyone decided to have one big tennis bash before we are locked up for months on end. A lot of activity in the parks themselves too.

I also got an email from the big tennis shop in town saying they'll be open until minute the lockdown comes into effect in their county (8am tomorrow), and telling us it's the "last chance to load up before the shutdown."
It’s like reverse natural selection. Instead of dumb people getting themselves killed they’re getting themselves infected and killing thier elderly. Ancestral payback for passing down stupidity
 

tavarua

New User
All of our clubs have been closed for the lass\t week, but we have many private courts (Rancho Santa Fe) and everybody is home and bored. So lots of tennis going on here.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
I am absolutely convinced the highest risk we all face is going to the grocery store.
I also think this is the case.

It might be part of the reason that Italy and Spain still have so many new cases coming on despite fairly drastic lockdown.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
So government has declared state of emergency and has closed non-essential businesses. My argument is that tennis is an essential service, especially during winter months.

What I've done is lock the front doors and put the 'closed' sign up. Lights are off in front area so building looks closed. Building's landline is routed to a cell phone so kid that runs the front desk doesn't have to stay at the desk. When kid answers the phone, he gives directions for players to go around to the back door/loading area where he lets them in. Playing area has no windows so nobody outside can tell lights are on full blast. Everything normal inside. Steady as she goes.
Are you also selling black-market N95 masks and TP in your pro shop? :)
 

TTMR

Hall of Fame
Are you also selling black-market N95 masks and TP in your pro shop? :)
Not black market. They were purchased wholesale fair and square.

So I had a kid call in the other day. I told him you need a doctor's note. So kid tells me he's going to the doctor. Okay. Kid comes back and says his doctor won't take in-person appointments, so they did a video appointment. Because of that kid couldn't get a doctor's note, but doctor left a short video message for his employer (me) confirming kid's non-Corona illness. I said that doesn't count. Kid says a video message is better than a note. I said show me in the labour code where it says I have to accept a video. It says sick note from a doctor, not video from a doctor (could be a friend/relative acting for all I know).

He asked if doctor could fax me a note. I said no, I need original copy. I told kid if it's legitimate you can have your doc mail me the original, but until then your shifts are cancelled without pay. 30% unemployment and you're calling in sick, putting my business I work so hard for in jeopardy, I don't get it.
 

vex

Hall of Fame
Not black market. They were purchased wholesale fair and square.

So I had a kid call in the other day. I told him you need a doctor's note. So kid tells me he's going to the doctor. Okay. Kid comes back and says his doctor won't take in-person appointments, so they did a video appointment. Because of that kid couldn't get a doctor's note, but doctor left a short video message for his employer (me) confirming kid's non-Corona illness. I said that doesn't count. Kid says a video message is better than a note. I said show me in the labour code where it says I have to accept a video. It says sick note from a doctor, not video from a doctor (could be a friend/relative acting for all I know).

He asked if doctor could fax me a note. I said no, I need original copy. I told kid if it's legitimate you can have your doc mail me the original, but until then your shifts are cancelled without pay. 30% unemployment and you're calling in sick, putting my business I work so hard for in jeopardy, I don't get it.
This is quite the elaborate fantasy you’ve constructed for story telling on a tennis website I’ll give you that lol
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Not black market. They were purchased wholesale fair and square.

So I had a kid call in the other day. I told him you need a doctor's note. So kid tells me he's going to the doctor. Okay. Kid comes back and says his doctor won't take in-person appointments, so they did a video appointment. Because of that kid couldn't get a doctor's note, but doctor left a short video message for his employer (me) confirming kid's non-Corona illness. I said that doesn't count. Kid says a video message is better than a note. I said show me in the labour code where it says I have to accept a video. It says sick note from a doctor, not video from a doctor (could be a friend/relative acting for all I know).

He asked if doctor could fax me a note. I said no, I need original copy. I told kid if it's legitimate you can have your doc mail me the original, but until then your shifts are cancelled without pay. 30% unemployment and you're calling in sick, putting my business I work so hard for in jeopardy, I don't get it.
Where I live, the requirement for doctor's notes have been waived as people are being told to only go to doctor's for emergencies and do all other medical stuff virtually.
I'm surprised that hasn't happened in your district.
 
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