Coaches, do you actually play with your players?

Coolio

Coolio

Professional
Over the last while I have read a lot about Spanish style coaching, lot's of basket feeding, movement drills, hand feeds, focusing on balance and helping the player develop their own RHS. I have used a lot of it in my coaching but I don't know how beneficial it has been.

I think a lot of these drills are great to work on certain things but only if the player is getting many many hours of hitting in a given week. It is a great way to train 2 or 3 players at once but I don't think it is the best way to train a player 1 on 1 with lot's of these drills.

In this case I feel it is far more effective to play and rally with the player as you are coaching them.
Thoughts?
 
not a coach but a playing tennis dad. My son spent a year and a half in an academy setting, lots of basket feeding, hand feeds, live ball drills, multiple tourney player, etc.

The last 3 months he's had a private coach, spends half as much time on the court. Here he's received movement drills focusing on balance, but also, one on one rally with the player as they are coaching him. I sometimes jump in to rally with my son while the coach instructs him on the other side, but there is rally, stop start, instruction as it goes.

He has improved tremendously with the one on one you mention above. And, my son is getting more one on one time with his coach, no other students sharing that time. He went from 12 hours a week at academy, including a 1 hour private, to 5 to 6 hours a week one on one, that includes conditioning and strength training and it has paid huge dividends.
 
I shall say 1 thing on this - skill acquisition is contextual, therefore keep training as close to the format/environment of competition as is possible
 
I try to do both. Hand feeds to isolate a movement pattern... Then always finish by playing with them... As ash said, it's important to see why I'm stressing a particular movement pattern.

Let's take the "atp" fh, for example, it only takes a few hard hit balls (or heavy top balls) for them to realize why I'm trying to emphasize shortening their loop... They are so used to playing with other pushers or drinkers (eg they have a lot of time to take a big windup).

Another example is when i teach folks to just focus on spin serves... Sometimes I'll get resistance because they are accustomed to getting free points on their flat serve (along with doubles),... Once I kick a few "slow" serves say 10x in a row (show consistency), and they are struggling to get it back, they are now motivated to learn.

In general there are 3 ways to learn:
1. Do
2. Have it done to you
3. Observe
All three play a role in learning... I don't think you can learn just doing 1 and 3. Hitting with your students fulfills 2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You won't get an answer here:

TT coaches don't know how to play tennis. They just talk and talk, come with some random mathematical theory on launch angles and other garbage.

Real life coaches don't go on TT, they're too busy actually coaching/teaching/playing themself.
 
Not a coach but a coachee. Basket feeding is fine to work on something specific (coach can talk to you, easy ball to hit) but is doesn't take long to need an actual ball hit with pace and topspin to work on it. What is the point of spending ages hitting dolly-drop fed balls when no ball in a match is ever going to resemble that?
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Real life coaches don't go on TT, they're too busy actually coaching/teaching/playing themself.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is true. 1000's of them also don't discuss coaching and post videos of their pupils to share advice and best practice on Facebook groups either because they are too busy being 'real' and stuff.

Then of course there are all those people who want lessons at 10pm at night, which is probably enough to keep a 'real life' coach off of message boards and discussion groups.
 
Ash_Smith said:
I shall say 1 thing on this - skill acquisition is contextual, therefore keep training as close to the format/environment of competition as is possible
Click to expand...
Sounds reasonable, but academies don't train like this though which is puzzling...
 
^^^ I've had this discussion with coaches from many sports who still don't really get it. Football coaches are frequently the worst - try explaining to them that by having kids dribble around cones all you'll get is a group of kids who are great at dribbling around cones and they'll drag you outside and knee-cap you!

As for tennis - it has always been done this way is one reason it continues to be done this way and possibly using TGfU or constraints-led approaches a) requires a lot more effort on the part of the coach as the thought process is so much more involved than directive coaching and b) it doesn't feed the ego as well as directive coaching. Of course I can't speak for all tennis coaches or all academies - all I can do is present what I know and what I believe.

If only I were a 'real' coach ;)
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
You won't get an answer here:

TT coaches don't know how to play tennis. They just talk and talk, come with some random mathematical theory on launch angles and other garbage.

Real life coaches don't go on TT, they're too busy actually coaching/teaching/playing themself.
Click to expand...

You realize that Ash Smith is mocking you, don't you?
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
You realize I don't give a crap, don't you? Most posters here can't play, you know it as well as I do.
Click to expand...

You are a very cynical one aren't you. It must be exhausting being you. Sure posters here can't play at a 7.0 NTRP (ITN 1) level. Does not mean that some of us can't (or couldn't, in the past) play at a reasonably high level. Please give it a rest with this negativity already.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
You are a very cynical one aren't you. It must be exhausting being you. Sure posters here can't play at a 7.0 NTRP (ITN 1) level. Does not mean that some of us can't (or couldn't, in the past) play at a reasonably high level. Please give it a rest with this negativity already.
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Ummm... no. I just don't care to be the person who doesn't know a thing but end up running his/her mouth. If you can't do what you preach, then don't be teaching.

How many times have we had one of these coaching/instructional discussion, and then when someone asks for a video, it gets all quiet? Believe it or not, there are actually people who don't know better and buy into the garbage that is this place. I'd hate to see someone's game get ruined because they don't know any better, and got a "tip" from someone who can't play here.
 
It depends what I'm working on with the player and what we want to achieve. However I have found myself playing more often with this junior player cause he's responded better and gotten too many feeds from his previous coach.

 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Ummm... no. I just don't care to be the person who doesn't know a thing but end up running his/her mouth. If you can't do what you preach, then don't be teaching.

How many times have we had one of these coaching/instructional discussion, and then when someone asks for a video, it gets all quiet? Believe it or not, there are actually people who don't know better and buy into the garbage that is this place. I'd hate to see someone's game get ruined because they don't know any better, and got a "tip" from someone who can't play here.
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And you are not a piece of the garbage? Usually people avoid garbage. Since you seem to be so fond of it, it makes me wonder.

You would be better of posting in the rackets section about why rackets don't matter, and keep repeating it.
 
sureshs said:
And you are not a piece of the garbage? Usually people avoid garbage. Since you seem to be so fond of it, it makes me wonder.

You would be better of posting in the rackets section about why rackets don't matter, and keep repeating it.
Click to expand...

Says the poster child of being a garbage on the tennis court, yeah ok. And actually, yeah I would be right. Racquets wouldn't make a difference to people like you.
 
tennis_balla said:
It depends what I'm working on with the player and what we want to achieve. However I have found myself playing more often with this junior player cause he's responded better and gotten too many feeds from his previous coach.

Click to expand...

I don't think I've ever seen a backswing where the racquet points at the side fence and the arm is higher than the racquet before.
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Ummm... no. I just don't care to be the person who doesn't know a thing but end up running his/her mouth. If you can't do what you preach, then don't be teaching.
Click to expand...

An effective teacher has to know the subject matter for sure. They also have to develop an effective plan and be able to communicate it to the student and much more, but many teachers can't play at a high level anymore (and some never could). That doesn't mean they aren't good teachers. Staying open to new ideas, learning, knowing and having an eye for technical things, having a good plan, being an effective communicator, etc are just as important, if not more so than just being a good player. Some great players fail at teaching because they can't do these things well. This is true of many pursuits.
 
BMC9670 said:
An effective teacher has to know the subject matter for sure. They also have to develop an effective plan and be able to communicate it to the student and much more, but many teachers can't play at a high level anymore (and some never could). That doesn't mean they aren't good teachers. Staying open to new ideas, learning, knowing and having an eye for technical things, having a good plan, being an effective communicator, etc are just as important, if not more so than just being a good player. Some great players fail at teaching because they can't do these things well. This is true of many pursuits.
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That is 100% true. Some great players can't teach. But what I'm saying is there are bunch of people on these forums running around, telling people to do this and that, when they're just 3.0 bunting balls in. Sorry, if you can't demonstrate what you're trying to teach, take a seat.
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
That is 100% true. Some great players can't teach. But what I'm saying is there are bunch of people on these forums running around, telling people to do this and that, when they're just 3.0 bunting balls in. Sorry, if you can't demonstrate what you're trying to teach, take a seat.
Click to expand...

Well, sure - that's true. It's an internet forum. I thought that was just understood. ;)
 
bitcoinoperated said:
I don't think I've ever seen a backswing where the racquet points at the side fence and the arm is higher than the racquet before.
Click to expand...

Yea he's special!

On a serious note, he's always wanting to do things his way, he's hard headed and also unmotivated. He almost quit tennis and now slowly getting the love back into it. He was never motivated to play, and loves to mess around. I've been working on getting him focused and be as positive as possible with him without complimenting him much as being tough on him didn't work. Its a work in progress. The technique doesn't bother me as much for now as there are other more important issues to solve first.
 
I have to say it is nice to take lessons from a great player because you have the option to face a ball you just won't see in the USTA leagues or in the park or in Tuesday round robins and such but repetition is still a cornerstone for training, always will be.

It is also nice to get a cheaper price for hitting sessions.
 
I hit with my players, but it isn't the only thing I do. I generally find it harder to assess technique while hitting from across the court, so I don't find it ideal for "seeing" what is going on. But live ball drills, hitting, and playing points is where the rubber meets the road and so it can be very useful.
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
So why are people losing their sh*t when I bring it up?
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As BMC indicates, it's the manner in which you do it. And an apparent disdain for other POVs.

Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Ummm... no. I just don't care to be the person who doesn't know a thing but end up running his/her mouth. If you can't do what you preach, then don't be teaching...
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Bitter much? Gotta wonder why we don't see more positive contributions from you rather that telling us how inept the rest of us are.

Your bolded statement above isn't necessarily true at all. Many of us are way past out prime yet still have much to contribute. My peak level was nearly 20 years ago. Sadly, I've not been able to play at all in the past few years. You are not going to see any vids from me unless I can get myself back to a 5.0 level. Seems unlikely now that I'm in my mid 60s.

Many experts in tennis biomechanics and tennis physics are often no better than 4/0/4.5 players themselves (at their peak). Possibly lower now. Just like over-the-hill coaches, should we decree that they have nothing to contribute? Don't believe that Nick B ever played at anything higher than a 3.5 level. How about Oscar Wegner? Should we also dismiss all of their contributions?
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Bitter much? Gotta wonder why we don't see more positive contributions from you rather that telling us how inept the rest of us are.

You bolded statement above isn't necessarily true at all. Many of us are way past out prime yet still have much to contribute. My peak level was nearly 20 years ago. Sadly, I've not been able to play at all in the past few years. You are not going to see any vids from me unless I can get myself back to a 5.0 level. Seems unlikely now that I'm in my mid 60s.

Many experts in tennis biomechanics and tennis physics are often no better than 4/0/4.5 players themselves (at their peak). Possibly lower now. Just like over-the-hill coaches, should we decree that they have nothing to contribute? Don't believe that Nick B ever played at anything higher than a 3.5 level. How about Oscar Wegner? Should we also dismiss all of their contributions?
Click to expand...

I have seen older but accomplished players, their stroke mechanics are usually maintained throughout time. I'm not looking for the fastest swing or the most powerful swing. That's VERY different from players who are just self-taught (with bad mechanics), and they go on to tell people what to do just because that's how they (incorrectly) swing a particular stroke.
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
I have seen older but accomplished players, their stroke mechanics are usually maintained throughout time...
Click to expand...

It really depends on the nature or severity of injuries/disabilities of older players. For myself, I am very dependent on a cane to walk and my shoulder is shot (from volleyball injury and auto accidents). Yet I still have much to contribute.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Don't believe that Nick B ever played at anything higher than a 3.5 level. How about Oscar Wegner? Should we also dismiss all of their contributions?
Click to expand...

Oscar played at a high level, maybe close to 7.0? He won a practice set against Pancho Gonzales. Granted it was only practice, but still impressive. Just being able to rally with
the #1 player must mean you are at a high level.
 
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SystemicAnomaly said:
It really depends on the nature or severity of injuries/disabilities of older players. For myself, I am very dependent on a cane to walk and my shoulder is shot (from volleyball injury and auto accidents). Yet I still have much to contribute.
Click to expand...

Having read many of your posts over the years it would be an honor to take lessons from you.
 
Raul_SJ said:
Oscar played at a high level, maybe close to 7.0? He won a practice set against Pancho Gonzales. Granted it was only practice, but still impressive. Just being able to rally with
the #1 player must mean you are at a high level.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. Do you know when that set happened? I believe that Pancho was some 10-12 years older than Oscar (born in the late 30s) . So let's say that Oscar was a 6.0/7.0 player back in the day. Perhaps, now in his mid/late 70s, he is now much lower than a 4.0 level.

Not sure that I've seen any recent videos of Oscar playing or hitting. According to Say, no one should listen to anything Oscar has to say because of this. (Or Nick B for that matter).
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
It really depends on the nature or severity of injuries/disabilities of older players. For myself, I am very dependent on a cane to walk and my shoulder is shot (from volleyball injury and auto accidents). Yet I still have much to contribute.
Click to expand...

You're not the people I'm after. I'm referring to those who has had limited experience. Real coaches/players have played this sport for life.
 
Limpinhitter said:
donnybrook, is that you?
Click to expand...

Haha, nope (don't know who that is).

But seems like this isn't a big deal to people, I'll let it rest. I've gotten my point across.

I'm sure we'll have more threads of people who can't play, making claims of launch angle this, launch angle that, and why certain strokes are superior and inferior.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Thanks for the feedback. Do you know when that set happened? I believe that Pancho was some 10-12 years older than Oscar (born in the late 30s) . So let's say that Oscar was a 6.0/7.0 player back in the day. Perhaps, now in his mid/late 70s, he is now much lower than a 4.0 level.

Not sure that I've seen any recent videos of Oscar playing or hitting. According to Say, no one should listen to anything Oscar has to say because of this. (Or Nick B for that matter).
Click to expand...

I think peak level is the only possibly relevant issue. So if one was a 5.0+ when younger, it does not matter if you are a 3.0 now...
Nick B. has put out some great instruction. Although I am not familiar with his playing background. It would not surprise me if Nick never reached beyond 4.5 or even 4.0...

Another one that surprised me was Vic Braden. He did not physically look like a hig level player, but he was top 20? in the world.

Oscar playing background:
https://coachtube.com/course/tennis/new-book-with-oscar-wegner/518675
Oscar played on the international tennis circuit from 1963-67, competing with tennis legends such as Emerson, Stolle, Roche, Newcombe, Drysdale and Mulligan, to name a few. He also practiced with a resurgent Pancho Gonzales for one year and worked under former world champion Pancho Segura at the Beverly Hills Tennis Club in the late 1960’s.​
 
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tennis_balla said:
It depends what I'm working on with the player and what we want to achieve. However I have found myself playing more often with this junior player cause he's responded better and gotten too many feeds from his previous coach.

Click to expand...
Weird extra action on the takeback, but it's working.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 
There was quite a long Thread about this same issue-- hand feeds vs. sparring partners. I think most agreed that there is a place for both but as players progress and their mechanics get better probably less and less feeding and more sparring/live simulation.

I haven't read that much about the Spanish technique, but it seems like those drills are mostly foot work related and almost fitness type drills.. they're not really designed for practicing stroke mechanics. So I think sometimes people are comparing apples to oranges.

What people were objecting to in other thread was the idea of "lazy" coaches that just stand and feed all day without much purpose or plan.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
That is 100% true. Some great players can't teach. But what I'm saying is there are bunch of people on these forums running around, telling people to do this and that, when they're just 3.0 bunting balls in. Sorry, if you can't demonstrate what you're trying to teach, take a seat.
Click to expand...
I preach that people should bunt balls in.
 
I don't think limiting ones coaching methods to just feeding balls is the way to go, as its a very artificial way to learn. Tennis is a very open skill sports and yes I would create many situations where a games based approach would be employed. Training should be real.
 
TCF said:
Agreed. Just like with anything, its all how good the coach is at certain aspects. A coach who hits directly to the player with easy spins is not helpful, just as a hand feed simply dropped to a player can be lame.

But if you see a brilliant coach like Sanchez Vicario use hand feeds its stunning. He can manipulate the toss height, spin, direction, pace, etc. like a magician. He can literally get a player to work harder and see more variety of circumstances than many coaches can who play with their students using live ball drills. I would even say if he was limited to only hand feeds, he is so good he could develop a junior who was better in match play than other lesser coaches could using a variety of methods. Of course he would never do that, but he could as he is that good.

There are lots of ways to produce great players.
Click to expand...

@TCF
Are you aware of any videos available of Sanchez Vicario hand feeding with the manipulations you talk about? I coach my kids out of necessity but am not good enough to rally with him anymore. My son is nationally ranked in 12s and progressing fast. There's no other junior player in our region for him to hit with unfortunately. He plays with adults but it's hit and miss. Would love to see what I can find to help with hand and racquet feeding.
Thanks
 
Quality drills break down the common patterns of point play. For example, you'll see the key elements of the Spanish X drill pattern all the time in the pro game.

There's a way to feed where the timing is the same as match play.
 
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TCF said:
I feel for you and we are so spoiled here in S. FL. Last weekend my daughter played a 5'8" girl from Russia in a local G12 tournament. The girl was amazing. When you can play great international players locally its pretty nice.

I think there are some videos on You Tube, etc entitled Spanish Hand Feed Drills. But if I remember correctly, they are pretty basic. For example, an X pattern where you feed short and deep balls to both sides. I saw Emilio Sanchez do handfeeds live at a clinic and it was draw dropping. He connected with the player and could move him and make him hit such a variety of shots.

Perhaps if you call his academy in Naples, FL they can tell you if he had any detailed videos available. http://www.asc-florida.com/
Click to expand...

My son is doing very well for living in the middle of nowhere. It's just tough when he doesn't have the live ball and matchplay except at tournaments. On the other hand, tennis is fun for him; he doesn't feel tennis is a burden and isn't living in the likely pressure cooker environment where you are. We will have to do something different though if he's to continue to improve along this journey.

I've seen the Youtube videos and we definitely do the X drills. Was hoping to buy more detailed videos so will contact them to see if any available.
Thanks
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
So why are people losing their sh*t when I bring it up?
Click to expand...

lol, your post was a blanket statement referring to everyone who posts.

if, for example, you had a differing opinion (or fact based on research!) with something I might have stated, then I would appreciate the feedback... maybe you'd open my eyes to something new and I'd appreciate the time and effort you put in to educate me.

...but to criticize something I might have said without useful/actionable feedback, is a waste of my time and yours (though you could argue it makes you feel better) and in real life and in forums quickly gets on my ignore list.

its easy to criticize, its harder (and a mark of a greater person IMO) to empathize with your fellow man and understand where they are coming from and why... I bet a lot of wars (world and Internet!) could have been avoided with a bit of empathy.

that said I do appreciate insights you've presented in the past.
 
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
That is 100% true. Some great players can't teach. But what I'm saying is there are bunch of people on these forums running around, telling people to do this and that, when they're just 3.0 bunting balls in. Sorry, if you can't demonstrate what you're trying to teach, take a seat.
Click to expand...
Your probably 100% right lol. I have seen it first hand where guys who are 3.5 rated are teaching little kids how to play. Thats a joke! I agree that if you cant demonstrate what your trying to teach then take a hike!

As for @Coolio I am a coach and this will probably be my one post on this forum(tips section) lol as I spend more time on the court with my kids and training myself so I mostly lurk. I do Spanish drilling but I also do a lot of footdrills to teach movement and balance. Spanish drilling is great to teach a player how to go from defense to offense as the Spaniards are the best in the world at that. I only use it if I have 2-3 players. Usually I will do more 2 on 1's mixing patterns, working on specific strokes and consistency. I do one full day of basket feeding different from Spanish Drills as well. Privates are good for working on small details. I will jump in with my kids to play points or sets at the end of the week or sometimes on 2 on 1's to give one of the kids a break during practice.
 
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