Coaches, do you actually play with your players?
- Thread starter Coolio
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maxxy777
Guest
No mate coach can never scam you ever if you know 2 basic things.
You just need to understand what does this coach want .
And what do you want as a parent.
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maxxy777
Guest
Not really,im not saying total beginners should not drill but they can rally starting from small fields.
And do semi drill hitting thing were coach just starts the point .Best way to learn and easy for the coach win-win.
The thing is playing 1 hour is very hard ,and drilling 1 hour anyone can do.
So if you are not crazy about tennis just drill more play less.
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maxxy777
Guest
Problem doesnt exist ?
Coaches are working for deluded parents who have no idea about the sport and yet they are the bosses.
And then they invented system that will please those parents.
And this is a good system.
I think this is a problem mate.
Ash_Smith
Legend
Not mine (Oscar Wenger and the RPT (Luis Mediero) have been training coaches in systems that promote this way of working for many, many years. Not revolutionary, but born out of a better understanding of skill acquisition principles. Yes, a lot of coaches are potentially behind the curve.
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maxxy777
Guest
You think these guys dont have parents .
They have in fact most parents came there with them, to support.
Well its same in tennis,but parents are the judges there since they pay.
And coaches do anything to make money.
Whole system is based on this more or less.
Deluded parents wanting that their kid to play wimbledon and coaches that need money.
Dont tell me there is no problem in coaching.
At least in serious tennis.
And if kid plays just for fun ,well then anything fun is good.
I don't even understand this thread. There is a continuum in all sports from practicing movements (aka shadow swings - stepping through the motions) to actual play. Anywhere on this line can be useful to improving a players skill.. You see this in all sports..
I played a lot of hoops growing up. You could shoot around - play 3 on 3. You can run through plays with your team. You can shadow post moves - you can play full court basketball. All of these things 'work.' Obviously just doing things too removed from the sport (only practicing dribbling through the legs with no ball) isn't going to make you great. By the same token just going to full court hoops isn't going to give the player the necessary skills to go pro..
For rec player the combination of playing with constraints (which some might call 'drills') is likely the best..as they generally have some of the basics down.. For pros they might need to fine tune their play at times with simple (limited) drills.. It all depends. Just like Lebron James will go through the shoot around AND play in the game. This is a silly debate.
I played a lot of hoops growing up. You could shoot around - play 3 on 3. You can run through plays with your team. You can shadow post moves - you can play full court basketball. All of these things 'work.' Obviously just doing things too removed from the sport (only practicing dribbling through the legs with no ball) isn't going to make you great. By the same token just going to full court hoops isn't going to give the player the necessary skills to go pro..
For rec player the combination of playing with constraints (which some might call 'drills') is likely the best..as they generally have some of the basics down.. For pros they might need to fine tune their play at times with simple (limited) drills.. It all depends. Just like Lebron James will go through the shoot around AND play in the game. This is a silly debate.
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TCF
Guest
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Ash_Smith
Legend
^^^ There is obviously a difference between closed-loop skills and open-loop skills, but there is also a difference between shooting free throws on your own and shooting free throws with 5 other people lined up alongside the key (although arguably there shouldn't be, psychologically speaking).
One could also make an argument that if you're only shooting 4 or 5 free throws in a match, why dedicate lots pf practice time to it when it occurs so infrequently compared to other game situations.
Even in golf now (one of the most exclusively closed-loop skill sports) there is a movement away form range based isolated repetition and into more constraints based, on course or simulated training.
One could also make an argument that if you're only shooting 4 or 5 free throws in a match, why dedicate lots pf practice time to it when it occurs so infrequently compared to other game situations.
Even in golf now (one of the most exclusively closed-loop skill sports) there is a movement away form range based isolated repetition and into more constraints based, on course or simulated training.
2forehands
Rookie
I know nothing about basketball but if a free throw happens about every one in four offensive moves, then you could play a game where a nominated player takes all free throws for a half or game? Isn't that what some coaches do with serving in tennis?
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TCF
Guest
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maxxy777
Guest
The thing in practice is that you d want to improve your concentration,not just repeat endless drills.
You can do this while you turn you brain of and just repeat.
The thing is if he was a crap boxer who invented this exercise,everyone would consider its crap,
and would say this is way better.
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TCF
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Ash_Smith
Legend
When you think about it, this isn't obvious, it's completely illogical! You just said yourself, this practice is not anything like how it occurs in a match. In the same way golfers (not pro's necessarily) spend 50-100-200 balls hitting driver after driver on the range when they might hit their driver 6 or 7 times in an actual round.
Shouldn't we practice serving in a format which more closely matches the performance conditions - it would likely lead to more robust execution of skill under pressure.
I played college basketball. I played with players who went pro. Practicing free throws is the most fundamental shooting practice a shooter does. It's not only practice for the critical times it occurs in games, but (and this is important here) it TRANSLATES to shooting in every other situation a shooter encounters. When a shooter is "off", whats the very first thing he tries to do? Get fouled and shoot free throws. Why? It allows him to go back to the fundamentals and have success, translating back to the rest of the game. Very similar to the way practicing a tennis stroke translates to other situations in a tennis match.
Maxxy will now say repetition in practice never translates to a tennis match, which leads me to believe he has never even played tennis or any other sport. This unending argument from Maxxy that drilling is crap is beyond ridiculous. No one here is arguing that game/live based practice isn't valuable, but he seems to be the only one who believes that drilling has NO value whatsoever. Every athlete from pro on down has used drilling to some extent in learning and practicing their sport. Period.
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TCF
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maxxy777
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Why repeat drill ,when you have a quality guy with who you can repeat any exercise from base line.
You guys dont understand a single thing about pro tennis since you never played it.
Its a race against time for juniors.
You need to cut down all but most unnecessary exercises and even they you will be short on time.
There is only certain amount of time a day in which players can pay attention,after that its no use.
If you think you can just practice more ,your will fail in long term.
Oh, right...sorry. I forgot that you have played pro tennis. I think I saw a video of it...
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TCF
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jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Then I presume you have played pro tennis, thus making you qualified to state your opinions as truth?
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maxxy777
Guest
You know what my sons coach told me.
He said: only thing you need to do is make best possible conditions for your son.
He said if i told myself that and never forget it that my son is going to make it.
Now is he going to be top 100 ,which was my first wish when he started i dont know,now i dont even care.
All i care is that i give my best and find best possible conditions for your son.
I just look what is best for my son,i totally disregarded what i want.
This kind of different thinking made all the difference.
He is on the right path to have college and atp points.
And all this for same money,time as people who can only dream of having points,
and my son was in that group until 2 years ago.
How is this possible,well you just need to maximize your time on court.
If you think average person can practice more then top kids in the world that have drive like monsters is crazy.
So you are left with same or less time as pro kids which you need to use better.
And that is race against time.
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maxxy777
Guest
Then I presume you have played pro tennis, thus making you qualified to state your opinions as truth?
I have been told numerous times that i never played tennis, that i never watched tennis ,that i know nothing.
Never once responded to this or got offended.
Now i did exact same thing and pointed out simple truth that non of you played pro tennis,
,but already 3 people find it offensive.
Now do the math and see who the pro player is ,or at least who is the pro here.
^^^ OK. Fine. Great. But the best possible conditions for your son may not be the best possible conditions for every player. So, stop sh*tting all over methods that every current and past top 100 pro has used to get them there. If you think you and your coach have the best method, fine. Just hold your preaching until it proves to be true and he makes it into the top 100 (or it proves to be wrong and he doesn't make the top 100). Until then, talk is just talk.
Hey TCF, doesn't he remind you a little of BB a few years back? His methods and attitude have yet to live up to his bold predictions as well, although DB isn't done yet! We'll see.
Hey TCF, doesn't he remind you a little of BB a few years back? His methods and attitude have yet to live up to his bold predictions as well, although DB isn't done yet! We'll see.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
You don't seem to understand, so let me spell it out for you.
You are attacking other posters claiming they don't understand pro tennis because they never played it.
The question then becomes, what are your credentials in pro tennis?
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maxxy777
Guest
So you think the guys who made it to top 100 used a good method as kids.
You must be joking right,in best case they used same method as everyone .
All the best coaches used the same method on hundreds of players and only 1 made it.
There are parents who did insane things to their kids and those kids made it.
There are total noobs like uncle Tony that was a local rec kids coach until he started to coach Nadal.
Top 100 are 99% made of kids with insane drive and talent and would made it any were and they did.
Most top players today are from small places were no one plays or has even heard about tennis.
The point is pro players today use good method and they drill rare if ever,when they were kids they had to do what any idiot sponsor tells them.
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maxxy777
Guest
First i want your credentials mate since you claimed that first.
Unless you are just bunch of hypocrits,
you can attack me but when i do it to you then you go crazy.
Now do you want me to quote numerous attacks on me.
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jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
I am a rec player like most other posters on this board. No experience in the pro tour. Your turn.
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maxxy777
Guest
Top 300 atp.
Again, you miss the point or change your argument. 100% of top pros used drills and feeding as part of their learning and training on their way to the top. Of course they did other things and had qualities that set them apart, but you're arguing this whole thread that feeding and drilling is crap and a scam, yet every single top pro has done it. Again, when your kid makes the top 100 with no drilling or feeding, come back and tell us. Until then, go away. Oh, wait... that can't happen because he already has used drilling and feeding as a younger kid. In that case, just go away. It's getting old.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
You were a former Top 300 ATP player?! Prove it.
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maxxy777
Guest
Only thing my kid needs to do is be better then the kids he is playing with on evenly or even better kids.
With same amount of practice hours,
that would be enough to prove this type of practice is better.
And he has done that.
So you admit that after junior age drilling its not important as other types of practices,and can be done without.
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maxxy777
Guest
In real life its more important who says what, not what is being said ,and that is good.
But on forum most of the time we dont have this luxury,anyone can be anything.
So on forum what is being said is equal as who said it.
My point being listen to what i have to say,think about it based on facts i give.
And then take it or leave it.
Dont call me out as a noob in tennis or i
will return the favour.
Coolio
Professional
What if your kid has an issue with his volley or is having problems with short balls on the forehand? How does your sons coach help him with this?
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maxxy777
Guest
Ah now we are talking.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah only problem is, you have no facts to give, but you insist on pushing your opinions as fact, and then attempt to discredit and attack everyone else on the thread. When that is immediately (and predictably) met with ridicule, you act surprised and offended. Good job.
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maxxy777
Guest
3:24 short ball- goes for solid shot mistake
3:34 short ball-solid ball played on backhand but not in corner in small field ,not real attack
3:40 short ball-solid ball on backhand played in small field and get passing shot.
4:15 short ball on backhand-solid ball on backhand in small field not even corner similar as 3:34
4:33 short ball from rally when he knew it was coming-still solid ball on backhand and again loses the point.
4:44 short ball on forhand-though one but he still get solid ball on backhand and gets passing shot.
5:10 shortest ball yet -hits solid on forhand just behind servis line -first time he gets point from attack
So what can you learn from this attacks.
-he never goes for direct point
-doesnt care if oponent will get the ball,he covers the volley
-if he gets passed he doesnt change anything,next time he attacks the same
-he likes to attack just in the sweet spot of one side,not to close to lines,so if he mistakes ball is still going in closer to line.
-always attacks with this system no matter what
If regular player attacks solid in the corner and gets passed he will try harder and mistake,pros wont,thus raising percentage of possible wins,that is the main difference.
Novaks strenght is not in short balls but base line as any other pro ,harder you hit him better he counters.
If kid has problem with short balls its coz he has problem at base line or he just goes for to much thinking short ball is a kill and its not.
People make to big of a deal about attack an volleys coz point ends there but that doesnt win matches and its rarely
the main problem.You cant separate base line from attack,if its lacking attack will lack to.
,
3:34 short ball-solid ball played on backhand but not in corner in small field ,not real attack
3:40 short ball-solid ball on backhand played in small field and get passing shot.
4:15 short ball on backhand-solid ball on backhand in small field not even corner similar as 3:34
4:33 short ball from rally when he knew it was coming-still solid ball on backhand and again loses the point.
4:44 short ball on forhand-though one but he still get solid ball on backhand and gets passing shot.
5:10 shortest ball yet -hits solid on forhand just behind servis line -first time he gets point from attack
So what can you learn from this attacks.
-he never goes for direct point
-doesnt care if oponent will get the ball,he covers the volley
-if he gets passed he doesnt change anything,next time he attacks the same
-he likes to attack just in the sweet spot of one side,not to close to lines,so if he mistakes ball is still going in closer to line.
-always attacks with this system no matter what
If regular player attacks solid in the corner and gets passed he will try harder and mistake,pros wont,thus raising percentage of possible wins,that is the main difference.
Novaks strenght is not in short balls but base line as any other pro ,harder you hit him better he counters.
If kid has problem with short balls its coz he has problem at base line or he just goes for to much thinking short ball is a kill and its not.
People make to big of a deal about attack an volleys coz point ends there but that doesnt win matches and its rarely
the main problem.You cant separate base line from attack,if its lacking attack will lack to.
,
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maxxy777
Guest
I think i gave plenty of facts ,that is the reason everyone is so nervous.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
No, you defensively argued you were right even when you were shown video evidence that you were wrong. You saying something is true doesn't make it so, and insulting other members generally doesn't work very well either
Honestly I don't know why I'm even having this discussion when you obviously believe you are right, everyone else is wrong, and no amount of evidence will change your mind.
I think I'm done here. You are of course free to believe in whatever you want to believe. Just don't go around Internet forums spouting your ideas and expecting everyone to agree with you because a friend of the coach of the guy who hits with your kid was once an ATP player, or something like that
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maxxy777
Guest
Not a single evidence was presented.
If you think drilling with handfull of balls pros work with for few minutes
and basket of 500 balls that noobs hit for 1 hour plus is the same ,its your problem.
Now you go make a post how to help this guy
And make it better then mine if you want to help people on forum
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maxxy777
Guest
Of course the point of the sparring is that he is right next to him and can give him advice at exact same second or even before .
What he does and its crazy important, is arranges sparring,leads the whole practice session,you know what exercises,how long and such.
If the sparring was not good quality he doesnt invite same guy,girl again,but this is the thing he can make it work with most players who try hard.
Lets say my son is playing against 13 year old,then my son plays full court the kid plays 2 thirds or half court and then they play points from hand.
Next day he might play with the guy 800 atp and so on.
Also if there is not good sparring possible he will play.
They rarely play sets when they hit together 2-3 times a week ,but work on consistency ,Its crazy intense practice since that guy cant mistake and can play any speed any tempo any time.
And my son needs to adapt always.
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Really? How can he be "better" than "better" kids? Is he the #1 junior in the world? This is not the argument you made. You said drilling is not needed to make a PRO player. He is not a pro player.
I never argued that other types of practice were less important than drilling/feeding. Depends on the stage of development, what the goal of the practice is, and so on. I even said the mix of practice techniques could and should change with development and goals. Again, you are changing the argument. YOU, on the other hand, have argued that drilling/feeding is crap and a scam and not needed at all. You can't even stick with your own argument. Ridiculous.
You said your son's coach was Top 300 ATP. If YOU were at the same level, why don't you coach him? The BS meter here is off the charts, ladies and gentlemen!
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TCF
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Cool! Even though I disagreed with him often, I always got a kick out of him. I met him once when DB played in Nationals in the juniors. Different guy in person.
I am rooting for DB, even though I thought BB's predictions for his future success and how it all had to do with him was a bit over the top back then. He did make a lot happen from little resources, that's for sure!
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maxxy777
Guest
Lol you still dont understand that i just made example.
Everyone is the same here and yet people call me out that i never played,so i call them out back,deal with it.
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maxxy777
Guest
I never said the best but better mate learn to read.
And there are so many lvls in tennis from 2k juniors in ranking to 3k in atp.
You can always get better if you train smart.
I never changed a thing from my first post and its amazing how it all fells in the place.
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maxxy777
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