Coaches, do you actually play with your players?

[TCF]

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[Coolio]

Question for all posting on this thread.
Do you think 30mins of this is better or more effective to improving a player, than say 30 mins of high intensity live ball hitting with an former ATP pro? (Note only talking about the basket feeding in the first 6 minutes of the video, not the co-operative hitting)

If it is better, then why?

 

[heninfan99]

I love this kid's vids and posted this one before. There are no short cuts, my friend. No way to hack the system.
Andrei put in the time

Hitting with an ATP pro??? If you suck it won't help much but iirc you are quite good so go for it.

Question for all posting on this thread.
Do you think 30mins of this is better or more effective to improving a player, than say 30 mins of high intensity live ball hitting with an former ATP pro? (Note only talking about the basket feeding in the first 6 minutes of the video, not the co-operative hitting)

If it is better, then why?

 

[TCF]

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[WildVolley]

In real life its more important who says what, not what is being said ,and that is good.

This is where you go wrong in your thinking.

 

[Ash_Smith]

Question for all posting on this thread.
Do you think 30mins of this is better or more effective to improving a player, than say 30 mins of high intensity live ball hitting with an former ATP pro? (Note only talking about the basket feeding in the first 6 minutes of the video, not the co-operative hitting)

If it is better, then why?

"Better" or more effective at achieving what goal?

 

[maxxy777]

Question for all posting on this thread.
Do you think 30mins of this is better or more effective to improving a player, than say 30 mins of high intensity live ball hitting with an former ATP pro? (Note only talking about the basket feeding in the first 6 minutes of the video, not the co-operative hitting)

If it is better, then why?

This is exactly what happens when you drill to much
Kid has all the strokes but has no clue how to use them.
Match play is a joke ,not even one rally was played,but this is how its done in academys.
There is no competition there just matches that someone always tanks and no one cares.
About practice, its not way more effective if you hit atp guy ,for this kid his partner is more then enough,just exercises they do are terrible,and no one is even coaching them,as i said coaches only drill there.
And most important stuff like sparring they just leave it to kids.

This is were you go wrong in your thinking.

This is the thing mate i dont think.That is what you do.

 

[TCF]

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[jm1980]

This is the thing mate i dont think.

Yes, thinking is a waste of time. When school teachers make you think, it's useless. They just want your money.

 

[maxxy777]

maxxy777, I don't think we disagree that much. Drilling can be worthless many times, valuable if done correctly. But I have also seen former ATP pros rallying with kids, some will make no corrections and allow horrible technique, some hit the perfect pace and spin every time and the kid looks great but falls apart when playing a match. And other former ATP guys can improve kids tremendously while sparring.

Both drills and sparring can be very effective, or wasteful. The right balance depending on where the player is in their development is key.

Now if you told me I had to choose only one, I would choose sparring. But to me a hybrid approach of the right combination of each seems to yield pretty good results.

You guys need to make up your mind what you want.
Is the pro tennis reserved only for top talents or hard work with decent kid is enough.
You seem to jump from one opinion to another as you seem fit.
I on the other hand refuse to think about pro tennis, instead I concentrate on making things better.
And that is what i get in real life.
I just dont take things as they are since i explained all coaching in tennis is bias.

Making no corrections is most of the time best thing for the kid and they know that.
In fact many times its only thing that can be done.
I seen plenty of times coaches with good intentions and big dreams just talk big and teach nonsense and kids play worse then before or get injured.They do this coz they never passed the lvls ex atp guys have and just make the stuff up as they see fit.
Saying that any ex atp player cant teach is just a joke.
Just put yourself in their position,imagine all those hours of practice and you will see its a joke.Even if they are not good at start ,its easy to learn.
So to say for average kid ex atp player is not a good coach is just crazy.
Now are they good pro coaches ,well for big talents yes for average no ,but they are better then guys who never played,most of the times....

Rallying with atp pro also doesnt bring a lot on the table if anything.
Its not about against who you play as long as he is decent but how you play.

 

[maxxy777]

Yes, thinking is a waste of time. When school teachers make you think, it's useless. They just want your money.

In school you dont learn to think but repeat same old crap.

Why would i need to think about stuff i already know.
Funny.

 

[tennis_balla]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, just because you become good at something doesn't mean you can teach your skill to someone else.

Being able to teach someone something is a skill in and of itself that not everyone possesses.

 

[maxxy777]

http://www.tennisicoach.com/en/content/david-ferrer-practice-drills-part-17.aspx

plenty of pros drill out of baskets, its not the primary method of training but its a useful tool

Lol now just a fun fact.
What are the chances that something starting with letter "i" like icoach
can be good in real tennis.
Im serious, generic crap made to appeal to masses is going to help you in the sport in which nothing is close to generic.
Even the most generic country in the world cant produce a single top player.
Lets be serious its a marketing crap.
Everything on that site is crap.
You be smarter to pay me for advice then to read that anytime.

 

[maxxy777]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, just because you become good at something doesn't mean you can teach your skill to someone else.

Being able to teach someone something is a skill in and of itself that not everyone possesses.

Not true ,if it was professional sport i could agree,but to teach at lvl that 99,99% people play tennis its more then enough to be ex atp ranked.

 

[tennis_balla]

Lol now just a fun fact.
What are the chances that something starting with letter "i" like icoach
can be good in real tennis.
Im serious, generic crap made to appeal to masses is going to help you in the sport in which nothing is close to generic.
Even the most generic country in the world cant produce a single top player.
Lets be serious its a marketing crap.
Everything on that site is crap.
You be smarter to pay me for advice then to read that anytime.

iCoach is owned by the ITF you nincompoop.

Haha I can't stop laughing right now, I really can't this made my night thank you maxxy!!!

 

[maxxy777]

iCoach is owned by the ITF you nincompoop.

Haha I can't stop laughing right now, I really can't this made my night thank you maxxy!!!

Its just proves my point.
ITF is the :
same organisation that has same price money on futures from 1975,
that has done nothing for tennis popularity,
made conditions on futures worst by the year ,
more expensive by the year,
same time they made more tournaments so players need to travel more and lose more money,
its much harder to defend and make more points.
almost impossible for juniors to break futures lvl,
Basically what they done is made easier to get a point or two by making so many tournaments and made people play longer coz they think they have a chance.
ITF is by far worst organisation any sport has ever seen in this world.

And this is organisation to teach you how to play tennis .
That shows a lot about you mate.
You are same as them.

 

[jm1980]

I think this is about the point where you just have to add the guy to your ignore list and move on. He's on the same level as that Taiss guy (the guy with the 7.0 serve). It's hard to tell if they are actually that dense or just trolling.

 

[tennis_balla]

Its just proves my point.
ITF is the :
same organisation that has same price money on futures from 1975,
that has done nothing for tennis popularity,
made conditions on futures worst by the year ,
more expensive by the year,
same time they made more tournaments so players need to travel more and lose more money,
its much harder to defend and make more points.
almost impossible for juniors to break futures lvl,
Basically what they done is made easier to get a point or two by making so many tournaments and made people play longer coz they think they have a chance.
ITF is by far worst organisation any sport has ever seen in this world.

And this is organisation to teach you how to play tennis .
That shows a lot about you mate.
You are same as them.

Just stop, you lost credibility a long time ago and tonight it was the icing on the cake.

Thanks for the entertainment

 

[Coolio]

"Better" or more effective at achieving what goal?

The goal being for example to hit better groundstrokes that will allow you to hit effective shots in matchplay that allow you to win more.
Although @maxxy777 is extreme, he does spark some discussion on the live ball vs more closed drilling debate.

I know there is no real right or wrong but I am always wondering how much basket feeding/ hand feeding should be done as opposed to live ball rallying where I am controlling the rally and putting the player in specific situations.

 

[maxxy777]

Now its time to say that i never presented any facts.
And that will get you few likes hehe.

 

[maxxy777]

Prize money went up on the futures circuit this year and will go up again next year also it was the same for around 20 years not 40.
They put on more tournaments so there was less travel required and because of the increase in money i suspect thats why it looks like there will be less in the coming years. Its way easier to defend now because theres more tournaments as well I cba explaining that right now but its just try, easier to maintain ranking and raise after you have a point or two than to get one.

Finally do you think the same people running the 10ks are writing the coaching resources?

In 1975 price money was 7k now its 10k pro week ,yeah mate big raise.
You think getting 300 dollars more per tournament win is a raise for 40 years time.
And this year money didnt get up it was just for show.
90% of itfs are still 10k.
You cant even notice the difference in the raise that few weeks have.

They put on more tournaments so there was less travel required

And then you say players need to travel way less?LOL
http://www.coretennis.net/tennis-player/kristijan-mesaros/6304/profile.html
This guy played 71 won 57 matches and cant break top 300, plays every single week and you say less travel is required .
By the end of the year he will play up to 100 matches.
Its 30 plus weeks per year for the best of the best that win almost all matches in futures.
And on top of all you say there is way less travel required,its easier to defend and you dont need to play so much.

Its way easier to defend now because theres more tournaments

So 100 matches per year 30 plus weeks minimum only for the best, is not much to you.
Now imagine 18 year old braking futures lvl and winning 80 matches per year,and next year defending that.
Yeah much easier then before.


http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/kristijan-mesaros/mf90/overview
For the love of God guy played 71 matches won 57 matches in 21 weeks in futures and has won 15k dollars for that without 30% tax that is normal in europe HE WON 10K DOLLARS
He lost 500 dollars at least every week he played .
Year costs 35k-
That is huge money loss for him ,and he did nothing but win
What about the rest.
Were is the raise you are talking about.
Have some common decency and dont post any more.

It is rare that someone writes every single fact wrong .
This facts can be proven in 5 sec.
THat is my answer to your last question,

 

[maxxy777]

I think this is about the point where you just have to add the guy to your ignore list and move on. He's on the same level as that Taiss guy (the guy with the 7.0 serve). It's hard to tell if they are actually that dense or just trolling.

If you want me gone just ask me to leave.
If that post gets 2 likes im gone from the forum.

 

[maxxy777]

The goal being for example to hit better groundstrokes that will allow you to hit effective shots in matchplay that allow you to win more.
Although @maxxy777 is extreme, he does spark some discussion on the live ball vs more closed drilling debate.

I know there is no real right or wrong but I am always wondering how much basket feeding/ hand feeding should be done as opposed to live ball rallying where I am controlling the rally and putting the player in specific situations.

But there is mate .
Sport is not relative,no matter what the guys here say.
Some things are good some things are not that good ,some are bad.

Majority of practice needs to be played not drilled, in any case.
And if you are not playing high risk tennis and you shouldnt, there is nothing wrong in oponent controlling the situation sometimes,you need to learn to defend as good as attack for attack to work.So dont avoid those situations at any cost but learn to play in them if the situation demands.

 

[maxxy777]

Just stop, you lost credibility a long time ago and tonight it was the icing on the cake.

Thanks for the entertainment

Are you serious ,when did i have credibility from you .
My first post was tennis is a pyramid scheme which made you go crazy,second one was tennis academys and you went even crazier there lol.
Fact is last thing i want is credibility from people who cant take a simple truth.

 

[tennis_balla]

Are you serious ,when did i have credibility from you .
My first post was tennis is a pyramid scheme which made you go crazy,second one was tennis academys and you went even crazier there lol.
Fact is last thing i want is credibility from people who cant take a simple truth.

I never went crazy nor do I remember commenting on your pyramid scheme thread. You're making stuff up again.

 

[maxxy777]

I never went crazy nor do I remember commenting on your pyramid scheme thread. You're making stuff up again.

Funny coz i was saying same stuff in that one which you hate now.
So we are still on the same page .
Anyway you went insane on tennis academy scam you remember that one .

 

[tennis_balla]

Funny coz i was saying same stuff in that one which you hate now.
So we are still on the same page .
Anyway you went insane on tennis academy scam you remember that one .

Once again you need to stop making things up as that's low even for you.

 

[maxxy777]

Once again you need to stop making things up as that's low even for you.

Stop trying to close the thread.

 

[TCF]

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[dominikk1985]

for beginners basket Feeds are more effective because the Players won't sustain rallies and the basket allows them more reps. basket also allows you to Isolate situations and Play high intensity for good Players.

at some Point some rallies can be good too.

 

[maxxy777]

for beginners basket Feeds are more effective because the Players won't sustain rallies and the basket allows them more reps. basket also allows you to Isolate situations and Play high intensity for good Players.

at some Point some rallies can be good too.

The big problem is that beginners learn to think about non important stuff way to much ,
like how they stand, technic and such .
They dont pay attention to the ball since they have to much time and know the patterns, instead they pay attention to their body more.
So when the rally starts were there is no pattern or rhythm they dont have a clue whats going on.
When beginners are fresh they should rally and when getting tired feeding is ok.

 

[TCF]

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[maxxy777]

I am sort of in the middle on this one. If a coach gives a beginner too much instruction, then I agree with you, it clouds the mind. But if a coach knows how to use feeds to get the proper result from a beginner, then its productive. Hand feeds from a very talented coach can get a beginner to position and hit properly.

But I agree with you, move to rallies ASAP. People get bored and want to rally. Use foam balls, red balls, orange, green...whatever ball allows for them to rally with solid technique.

The thing is kids dont listen or think, they have high concentration but poor duration of it , they lose power fast in rallys and concentration with that.So this is the best time for feeding,
but only until they recover then rally again.
Same thing with adults but way way worse.
There needs to be very fine balance to make feeding good which very few can make.
So its way better to just rally and never feed then to feed bad.

This is typical bad feeding

Look min 6 -
Countless balls hand fed, and any vid you find on pro players only a 20 balls feeding max.
This is just made to cover daily private hour which is included in the price.
The coach is just feeding 5,6 hours a day same balls like in a factory and doesnt have a clue whats going on.
Look 6 :30 till the end, players is done and tanking but coach keeps on feeding he doesnt care.
Feeding countless balls will ruin most players tho, they just switch of their brain and hit like a machines.
Then when real match starts they get only a small fraction of that grind as a reward.

 

[dominikk1985]

The big problem is that beginners learn to think about non important stuff way to much ,
like how they stand, technic and such .
They dont pay attention to the ball since they have to much time and know the patterns, instead they pay attention to their body more.
So when the rally starts were there is no pattern or rhythm they dont have a clue whats going on.
When beginners are fresh they should rally and when getting tired feeding is ok.

I don't think beginners can develope a Rally rhythm. Rally rhythm and Timing is important but I think for beginners you Need reps first. once you have a certain Level you can start rallying but you Need to be able to hit the ball over the net 3 times in a row first.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

The thing is kids dont listen or think, they have high concentration but poor duration of it , they lose power fast in rallys and concentration with that.So this is the best time for feeding,
but only until they recover then rally again.
Same thing with adults but way way worse.
There needs to be very fine balance to make feeding good which very few can make.
So its way better to just rally and never feed then to feed bad.

This is typical bad feeding

Look min 6 -
Countless balls hand fed, and any vid you find on pro players only a 20 balls feeding max.
This is just made to cover daily private hour which is included in the price.
The coach is just feeding 5,6 hours a day same balls like in a factory and doesnt have a clue whats going on.
Look 6 :30 till the end, players is done and tanking but coach keeps on feeding he doesnt care.
Feeding countless balls will ruin most players tho, they just switch of their brain and hit like a machines.
Then when real match starts they get only a small fraction of that grind as a reward.

just to clarify, your main point is that they are feeding too many balls (eg. >20) at one time?

one advantage of feeding soo many balls is to fatigue the student to the point where their technique breaks down, and correct from their... when folks are fresh, it's easier to maintain good technique.
in bjj, our belt tests start with 1hr or hard cardio *before* the test even begins, the idea is to highlight how well a student understands (and can execute) the true essence of a technique (without being able to hide behind speed, strength, athleticism) even when they're tired.
let's take a fh prep that is taken back, arm first, when you're strong/fresh, it's easy to make that look good (ie. get good results), but when you're tired you start realizing that letting the core do all the work is a better way (and also conserves energy!).

thoughts?

 

[maxxy777]

just to clarify, your main point is that they are feeding too many balls (eg. >20) at one time?

one advantage of feeding soo many balls is to fatigue the student to the point where their technique breaks down, and correct from their... when folks are fresh, it's easier to maintain good technique.
in bjj, our belt tests start with 1hr or hard cardio *before* the test even begins, the idea is to highlight how well a student understands (and can execute) the true essence of a technique (without being able to hide behind speed, strength, athleticism) even when they're tired.
let's take a fh prep that is taken back, arm first, when you're strong/fresh, it's easy to make that look good (ie. get good results), but when you're tired you start realizing that letting the core do all the work is a better way (and also conserves energy!).

thoughts?

No mate you can spot a good player and bad one in few minutes if you know the stuff.
Sure it may appear good when they have decent power but if you look really close you can see the flaws.
My sons coach showed me that many times on futures.
I use to practice this a lott.
I find a vid on youtube of college tennis, futures,challengers, or just about anyone and try to guess their ranking before i look their name in google.
I must say i am spot on almost every time .
I learned to watch only one player very closely for period of time and look for the flaws, you cant hide those even in full power.

 

[maxxy777]

I don't think beginners can develope a Rally rhythm. Rally rhythm and Timing is important but I think for beginners you Need reps first. once you have a certain Level you can start rallying but you Need to be able to hit the ball over the net 3 times in a row first.

They can and they must as soon as possible.
Players needs to understand right away that they need to give opponents nice balls so they can rally .

If they cant control the ball in rally thru the mid they cant control the ball in the match.
Most people even today after 20 years of playing think they need to play better, stronger faster then opponent when they play thru the mid , not nice and steady showing awsome control and consistency.

 

[TCF]

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[TheCanadian]

Sadly, tennis academies don't produce players anymore; they're a money pit for money-bags parents who know nothing about tennis. This is why I wonder about Nadal's new venture.

Over the last while I have read a lot about Spanish style coaching, lot's of basket feeding, movement drills, hand feeds, focusing on balance and helping the player develop their own RHS. I have used a lot of it in my coaching but I don't know how beneficial it has been.

I think a lot of these drills are great to work on certain things but only if the player is getting many many hours of hitting in a given week. It is a great way to train 2 or 3 players at once but I don't think it is the best way to train a player 1 on 1 with lot's of these drills.

In this case I feel it is far more effective to play and rally with the player as you are coaching them.
Thoughts?

 

[maxxy777]

Sadly, tennis academies don't produce players anymore; they're a money pit for money-bags parents who knows nothing about tennis. This is why I wonder about Nadal's new venture.

No need to wonder its all very clear.
Someone needs to feed the pyramid lol
https://www.rafanadalacademy.com/web/web-rafa-nadal-academy/about-us#bio-box-anchor
THe thing is Rafa probably doesnt have anything to do with this, he did a favor for his uncle and put his name on it.
Uncle Toni made this so he has something to do when Rafa retires .



objectives

• To maximise the potential of every player, so that they have the opportunity to become a professional tennis player without having to abandon their studies.

Nice touch tho.
Stretching the truth as far as it goes, becoming a pro tennis players with a degree.
This sounds great -
Your kid makes money as tennis pro and yet has a college degree.
Now that was never offered until now in any academy lol.
Props to guy that wrote this.
Parents will love that .
My son is a doctor, no my son is a surgeon when he is not playing wimbledon lol.

 

[TCF]

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[maxxy777]

To maximise the potential of every player, so that they have the opportunity to become a professional tennis player without having to abandon their studies.

• To combine high performance tennis with academic excellence so that those students that wish to can continue their sporting and academic education can benefit from the best scholarships to universities in the USA.

If the player fails to make it as pro tennis without abandoning their studies its all his fault.
He was provided with once in a life time opportunity and he blew it.

It doesnt really matter that you cant be a tennis pro and go to college because you cant take price money while playing for college.And making money is definition of being a pro.
But that is just an excuse.
You was provided with a real opportunity and you blew it lol.

 

[TheCanadian]

It would be interesting to find out why academies produced significant players in the past but not so much today, even though there are many more academies around today. What changed? It seems that there's almost no emphasis on proper technique, it's just volume and more volume. Sad.

No need to wonder its all very clear.
Someone needs to feed the pyramid lol
https://www.rafanadalacademy.com/web/web-rafa-nadal-academy/about-us#bio-box-anchor
THe thing is Rafa probably doesnt have anything to do with this, he did a favor for his uncle and put his name on it.
Uncle Toni made this so he has something to do when Rafa retires .



objectives

• To maximise the potential of every player, so that they have the opportunity to become a professional tennis player without having to abandon their studies.

Nice touch tho.
Stretching the truth as far as it goes, becoming a pro tennis players with a degree.
This sounds great -
Your kid makes money as tennis pro and yet has a college degree.
Now that was never offered until now in any academy lol.
Props to guy that wrote this.
Parents will love that .
My son is a doctor, no my son is a surgeon when he is not playing wimbledon lol.

 

[sureshs]

Yup, its easy one stop shopping for tennis parents with money. But they rarely produce much. We play kids from Maccis and Everts at tournaments and they are no different than the other kids. A few good ones, plenty of average ones.

A former top 10 ATP player opened an academy a few weeks ago about a mile from our house. It requires a down payment and works out to 2-4 times what other local programs cost. He already says he has 40 kids.

Now keep in mind we have lived in the area and been immersed in junior tennis completely. We know every kid around who is serious about tennis. And we do not know any of the kids that go to the new academy. Granted a few may be from out of the area, but certainly many are local.

This means parents are paying big money for players who are obviously not junior tournament level players to have expensive and intense training. That boggles my mind that someone would pay that much to develop a hobby player.

You could literally send them to the program at the local tennis center, develop the same player, for 1/4th the cost.

But some academies offer the entire package, with exercise, nutrition, play, school, homework help etc. all in one place. Parents doing this on their own have to contend with school, exams, coaching, and driving around to find match opportunities for their kid. I have found that in such families, one parent often stops working full-time just for this and becomes a tennis driver.

 

[maxxy777]

But some academies offer the entire package, with exercise, nutrition, play, school, homework help etc. all in one place. Parents doing this on their own have to contend with school, exams, coaching, and driving around to find match opportunities for their kid. I have found that in such families, one parent often stops working full-time just for this and becomes a tennis driver.

So send them away were they feed them balls 4 hours a day in a group and call it a day.

 

[TCF]

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[sureshs]

Absolutely, thats why I call it one stop shopping. If you have the money to spare, go for it. I have no problem with it. Just stating that the end result for kids who supposedly have such advantages, are not impressive.

I also feel that one should account for the separation from parents and siblings in such an academy. Some people do not agree with it.

 

[maxxy777]

It would be interesting to find out why academies produced significant players in the past but not so much today, even though there many more today. What changed? It seems that there's almost no emphasis on proper technique, it's just volume and more volume. Sad.

Its very simple 30 years ago best kids in the world went to academys more often.
So it seemed that they produce more players.
It was general opinion that this was the best option.


Now best players have way more info and know they can get better bang for the buck.
Major sponsors rather provide private coaches for best players then send them to camps
You can get private ex top 200 atp guy for peanuts in many countries.
Only people who dont do their homework send kids to academys.

 

[TCF]

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[TCF]

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