coaching junior help

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wesley o brien

New User
Hi All

Would love to get a feedback from another coach. I have been working with an 11 yr old girl for about 7 months..off and on but always once a week for an hour lesson....although she has improved a bit she still struggles with serve and forehand. Now she ONLY does coaching and no practice outside of this one hour a week. Is she going to improve if she ONLY does one / 2 hour a week coaching and no practice outside of this ???? Now in last 3 weeks the parents want two privates a week ( mon and sat ) ....I feel the parents are getting critical a bit and I have told them she needs to practice. If she is only doing coaching lessons ( even if it is 2 privates a week ) .i dont feel she will improve that quickly ( unless hitting too )..what do you guys feel ? She should really he on green ball ( parents dont want that ) as her rallying/movement isnt great. Bh technique is good..serve getting better but Fh she is chopping and poor. I feel / confident what im telling her is right..but is the fact shes not practicing a reason her rally movement isnt great and some things arent sinking in ?????

Its a pain bc i said before...i question myself too now...is it me
 
I come across this all the time. I let the student and parents know up front that there should be practice outside of class. I indicate that 3 times on the court (or more) per week is usually best to see decent progress. I've had some parents ask after 6 to 9 months, why their kid is not more advanced. I'll then ask them how often their kid practices every week. They will usually say "once a week". And it turns out that the "once a week" is their class with me = no practice outside of class.

Try this. Ask if the kid plays a musical instrument. If so, ask how many times a week they practice. Chances are it will be more often than they practice tennis. If they don't play an instrument, ask how often they do homework. Either way, hopefully this will get the message across.
 
hi @wesley o brien

Is it you - no idea - as I don't know what you are training with her or how you are training it - so it could be, or it could partly be. That's something you do need to consider - sorry, I don't mean that to be as harsh as it may sound, but as coaches our job is to constantly reflect on what we do and improve our delivery.

The other side of this is yes, she needs to play more to really see improvement - structured play, free play, competitive play all go to making up the environment. An extra individual lesson may help, but in general I prefer players to have more opportunity to play outside of 1-2-1 sessions with a coach.

It also may help to talk through with her and her parents what each of their goals are - chances are (only based on what you have said) that her goals and her parents goals for her (and also maybe your goals for her) don't converge.
 
Ash_Smith said:
hi @wesley o brien

Is it you - no idea - as I don't know what you are training with her or how you are training it - so it could be, or it could partly be. That's something you do need to consider - sorry, I don't mean that to be as harsh as it may sound, but as coaches our job is to constantly reflect on what we do and improve our delivery.

The other side of this is yes, she needs to play more to really see improvement - structured play, free play, competitive play all go to making up the environment. An extra individual lesson may help, but in general I prefer players to have more opportunity to play outside of 1-2-1 sessions with a coach.

It also may help to talk through with her and her parents what each of their goals are - chances are (only based on what you have said) that her goals and her parents goals for her (and also maybe your goals for her) don't converge.
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Hey Ash...no i totally undrstand what your saying....i do feel we all should be looking at ourselves too. The items i have worked on with her has worked..when she gets it. Shes just not consistant aud wondered if that may come from the fact she just does lessons. If someone does lessons only....will they just come back mske same mistakes again. Does it sink in with just lessons. In your opinion ?? And also the fact her movement and anticipation / reaction is weak ( rally skills) could be from not practising ?? Thank you
 
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If the students says that they are too busy to get to the courts to practice, tell them that their homework is to pick up their racket for 15 mins every day and perform shadow swings. Some of these swings can be done in front of the mirror for more feedback. Some w/o the mirror. And some with the eyes closed to develop more of a feel of the strokes. Of course, it helps to perform some shadow swings in class to make certain that the student is performing them properly and not being sloppy about it or "just going thru the motions".

Off court visualizations can also be useful. Or watching tennis videos on line. Tell your student to watch the feet of the players to see how they move and how much they move.
 
wesley o brien said:
If someone does lessons only....will they just come back mske same mistakes again. Does it sink in with just lessons. In your opinion ?? And also the fact her movement and anticipation / reaction is weak ( rally skills) could be from not practising ?? Thank you
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It really depends on how you construct your lessons and what 'style' (for want of a better word) of coaching you use. If you are very directive you might see improvement during the lesson, but it will likely fall away without practice in-between as she will be used to being told what to do in order to achieve. If you are more of a facilitator, letting her solve problems by finding technical solutions you have greater chance of having things stick longer term, but are much less likely to see big improvement in a single lesson - either way she needs to 'practice' between sessions with you. With a more facilitated approach, if you can get her doing some 'free play' in between lessons you'll likely see the improvement as she will be more used to taking control of her own learning.

If you are 'stuck' with one or two sessions with her, then I would be looking to keep the sessions as close to 'the game' as possible - variability, as open as possible - maybe see if you could get another kid involved as a hitting partner? At least with this approach you stand a chance of addressing some of the issues you've highlighted.
 
I think this was already sort of covered, but if they aren't going to hit outside of the lesson, I will have them either write down or commit to memory what they are learning / working on, and then I start the next lesson by making them go over it all again in the first five minutes.
"What were the three things we were doing on the forehand?" etc etc.

I also agree that they should be able to goof off watching TV on the coach and still be able to practice some grips / shadow swings, etc.

The biggest challenge with young kids is when they are not really that focused or interested in improving, and lessons are basically play time for them.
 
barringer97 said:
Have her sign up for tourneys and make it part of your plan. Therefor, she gets practice and match play experience.
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We do this with the high school players for the off season. I have had coach/player/parent contracts for my son to outline desired outcomes and needed efforts to attain them. Good for the coach, player, and parents so everyone knows what is required.
 
Been through this.

1/ Identify and document Player's goals for playing tennis. (The goals must be specific, tangible and measurable over fixed timeframes.)

2/ Identify and document Parents goals for their child playing tennis. (The goals must be specific, tangible and measurable over fixed timeframes.)

3/ Outline to the Player and Parents, exactly what YOU believe is necessary for the goals to be achieved.
-Min. hours per week hitting tennis balls
-Min. hours per week fitness and movement (eg. Rope Ladder etc.)
-Min. number of Competitive matches to play over the next 3 months, 6 months, 12 months.

Explain to the Parents that Lessons are "School", Training / Practice is "Homework" and Competitive Matches are "Tests".

If the parents / player is not prepared to commit to the minimum requirements you set then you have to revise their expectations. IMO, you are much better off being honest and ethical even if it means that you lose the player. Both of you would be better off in the long term.

Pesonally, I think the most important aspect of junior player development between 9 and 13 years of age deals with learning proper stroke technique that is best suited to the individual player. On that basis, I see nothing wrong with just doing Private Lessons - the more the better but it does get expensive. The only challenge with that is that the player may become bored if they feel they need to see competitive progress.

I know one junior player who as a 10yo did nothing but 2 Private Lessons every week for about 1 year. It allowed them to develop decent stroke technique without any other distractions. IMO, that process worked very well for that particular player but of course every player is different physically and mentally, even more so junior players.

Good Luck.
 
If an 11 yr old kid is attempting to learn tennis and his/her parents are not tennis players, exactly who is this kid supposed to practice with twice each week? Ball machine? Two additional clinics a week? Gets a little expensive, doesn't it.
 
Friedman Whip said:
If an 11 yr old kid is attempting to learn tennis and his/her parents are not tennis players, exactly who is this kid supposed to practice with twice each week? Ball machine? Two additional clinics a week? Gets a little expensive, doesn't it.
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One way or another the parents have to get involved. Otherwise, pick up another sport. It's just folly not to.
 
Honestly, I don't know why any parent would bring a kid into tennis at minimum time practiced. At two days a week, what is the point? Is that even fun. To go out and moonball in the hot sun with other kids so you can get first round exited in L6's.

It's not a minimum practice activity. And there are plenty of other things to do. More fun than bunting a ball back and forth being cannon fodder for kids five years younger who eat and breathe it.
 
Friedman Whip said:
If an 11 yr old kid is attempting to learn tennis and his/her parents are not tennis players, exactly who is this kid supposed to practice with twice each week? Ball machine? Two additional clinics a week? Gets a little expensive, doesn't it.
Click to expand...

Developing proper stroke technique does not require a hitting partner at the other end of the court. All it requires is a parent that is interested enough to learn and understand the basics of stroke technique. As long as that same parent is capable of tossing tennis balls to the player, that is more than enough to facilitate the grooving of strokes between tennis lessons.

I know parents who have literally thrown thousands of tennis balls and have ended up with children who are very decent tennis players.

This is one of the many ways tennis can become part of a child's life without costing a fortune.

The idea that anyone can forecast that a 10yo or 12yo or even 14yo child is going to become a hugely successful Professional Tennis Player is pure lunacy as far as I'm concerned.

There are a lot of pieces that have fall into place for such a thing to happen. Many of those things can be controlled, but some cannot. And it is the one's that cannot that are the biggest challenge because they are unpredictable.
 
In my opinion, it is not possible to learn playing tennis well, if you train only 2 hours per week or less (no matter private or group lessons). Taking into account that tennis technic is very complexed and complicated, the more you train, the better you become. Somebody compared it with playing a musical instrument and I believe it is a wright comparison. It was an article stating that in order to learn playing piano at a decent level, you have to train about 10.000 hours. And it won’t mean that you will be one of the best that can make a living of this. I think, it is the same with tennis.

I have a 10y old son, who has been playing tennis almost 4.5 years. And I see a huge progress in his game over the last year in terms of technic and tournament results. Yesterday I was watching the son’s practice and some random lady praised my son saying that he plays nice tennis. I thanked her and started thinking what took us to become what we are (even if it is just the beginning and a lot of must be done, learned and etc.). Basically it was 3 private lessons (1-1.5 h each), 5 group lessons (1-1.5 h each) and 3 physical training lessons (1 h each) per week. And this is not a lot. Parents and coaches tend to say that their children play less or the same and somehow are better, but I don’t buy it. It is impossible to play well with the training 3 times per week. There is a tournament right now in Croatia (http://www.smrikve.com/smrikva-bowl/) of U10. The boys serve kick serves already and I don’t believe it can be taught taking 2 lessons per week. I strongly believe that these kids do not leave the courts, at least during the holidays.

For parents, that are not seriously committed and/or do not have resources, I would recommend other sports that aren’t so difficult to learn and do not require so much personal attention of the coach that costs a fortune.
 
Karma Tennis said:
Developing proper stroke technique does not require a hitting partner at the other end of the court. All it requires is a parent that is interested enough to learn and understand the basics of stroke technique. As long as that same parent is capable of tossing tennis balls to the player, that is more than enough to facilitate the grooving of strokes between tennis lessons.

I know parents who have literally thrown thousands of tennis balls and have ended up with children who are very decent tennis players.

This is one of the many ways tennis can become part of a child's life without costing a fortune.
Click to expand...


Sorry but the parent, who did not play tennis by himself, is not a tennis coach, can’t teach his children proper technic. I know those stories about Agassi or Williams sisters, but nobody knows for sure how they learned tennis technic. I believe there are some other coaches behind this.

Saying that a parent can teach tennis, means that all the coaches, who studied how tennis is played, spent thousands of hours on court playing by themselves or teaching, are useless.

There are a lot of tennis instructors, who can perfectly feed the balls, but not so much good coaches that can teach kids to play tennis from zero.
 
G&G said:
Sorry but the parent, who did not play tennis by himself, is not a tennis coach, can’t teach his children proper technic. I know those stories about Agassi or Williams sisters, but nobody knows for sure how they learned tennis technic. I believe there are some other coaches behind this.

Saying that a parent can teach tennis, means that all the coaches, who studied how tennis is played, spent thousands of hours on court playing by themselves or teaching, are useless.

There are a lot of tennis instructors, who can perfectly feed the balls, but not so much good coaches that can teach kids to play tennis from zero.
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False. There is plenty of good info out there. I took a four year old, read everything I could get my hands on, watched pro videos for hours and by eight years old had coaches pleading with me to let them join the team. Shes taking out high school kids by ten Zero tennis experience. Just takes heart.
 
CJ Tennis said:
I can second this. Same basic story. No tennis experience, watched videos and asked questions. Started my kid at age 3. She is now 12 and considered as good a prospect as any US girl. I know other parents with similar stories. The information on the internet makes it even easier today to do what we did than it was when we started 9 years ago.
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Good stuff brother. Respect from someone who has an idea of the work you put in. Enjoy. I'm sure you are.
 
wesley o brien said:
Hi All

Would love to get a feedback from another coach. I have been working with an 11 yr old girl for about 7 months..off and on but always once a week for an hour lesson....although she has improved a bit she still struggles with serve and forehand. Now she ONLY does coaching and no practice outside of this one hour a week. Is she going to improve if she ONLY does one / 2 hour a week coaching and no practice outside of this ???? Now in last 3 weeks the parents want two privates a week ( mon and sat ) ....I feel the parents are getting critical a bit and I have told them she needs to practice. If she is only doing coaching lessons ( even if it is 2 privates a week ) .i dont feel she will improve that quickly ( unless hitting too )..what do you guys feel ? She should really he on green ball ( parents dont want that ) as her rallying/movement isnt great. Bh technique is good..serve getting better but Fh she is chopping and poor. I feel / confident what im telling her is right..but is the fact shes not practicing a reason her rally movement isnt great and some things arent sinking in ?????

Its a pain bc i said before...i question myself too now...is it me
Click to expand...
personally, i fire students that don't practice (i let them know my expectations up front)
but to me, it's not worth my time if someone is not gonna practice.
 
wesley o brien said:
Hi All

Would love to get a feedback from another coach. I have been working with an 11 yr old girl for about 7 months..off and on but always once a week for an hour lesson....although she has improved a bit she still struggles with serve and forehand. Now she ONLY does coaching and no practice outside of this one hour a week. Is she going to improve if she ONLY does one / 2 hour a week coaching and no practice outside of this ???? Now in last 3 weeks the parents want two privates a week ( mon and sat ) ....I feel the parents are getting critical a bit and I have told them she needs to practice. If she is only doing coaching lessons ( even if it is 2 privates a week ) .i dont feel she will improve that quickly ( unless hitting too )..what do you guys feel ? She should really he on green ball ( parents dont want that ) as her rallying/movement isnt great. Bh technique is good..serve getting better but Fh she is chopping and poor. I feel / confident what im telling her is right..but is the fact shes not practicing a reason her rally movement isnt great and some things arent sinking in ?????

Its a pain bc i said before...i question myself too now...is it me
Click to expand...
I don't envy your position as a coach here either. You're just trying to help the kid. The parents are delusional if they expect decent improvement from two a week. Nonsense.

I just had to make a hard decision to cut my daughter's training in half today at her Academy. Her legs are shot. She only did three hours today.

Gotta rest up for a full day tomorrow.

What will she improve from today? I don't know. MAYBE .00001%. That's the game. Go play the clarinet or something if you don't want to work. (Mediocre clarinet. I know music is just as hard when done properly.).
 
You guys pretty much dedicated yourselves to learning "coaching" and basically are full time coaches for the kids.

So your kids have someone who is fully vested in the improvement of the skill and you are seeing exactly what is happening on the court. Every single day. Every month. Every year. For YEARS.

To replicate that is near impossible paying a coach.

I know one father who has his 14 year old kid out at the club I coach at hitting against a ball machine every day. Feeding balls. I Setup up practice matches with my academy kids for him. The kid is phenomenal. Only played 2 sanctioned matches. Ever. But won both. L1a. Against highly ranked kids. They are going all in with tournaments this coming year. He will imo get a national ranking in 16s this year. He is that good. Reason? Crazy dad feeding balls all day every day. Lugging around a ball machine. Since 7 years old. The dad looks at all the videos. All the websites. Reads all the books. I love talking to him. He is very opinionated but he breathes tennis. It's amazing what he is doing.
CJ Tennis said:
I can second this. Same basic story. No tennis experience, watched videos and asked questions. Started my kid at age 3. She is now 12 and considered as good a prospect as any US girl. I know other parents with similar stories. The information on the internet makes it even easier today to do what we did than it was when we started 9 years ago.
Click to expand...

PittsburghDad said:
False. There is plenty of good info out there. I took a four year old, read everything I could get my hands on, watched pro videos for hours and by eight years old had coaches pleading with me to let them join the team. Shes taking out high school kids by ten Zero tennis experience. Just takes heart.
Click to expand...


Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 
J J said:
You guys pretty much dedicated yourselves to learning "coaching" and basically are full time coaches for the kids.

So your kids have someone who is fully vested in the improvement of the skill and you are seeing exactly what is happening on the court. Every single day. Every month. Every year. For YEARS.

To replicate that is near impossible paying a coach.

I know one father who has his 14 year old kid out at the club I coach at hitting against a ball machine every day. Feeding balls. I Setup up practice matches with my academy kids for him. The kid is phenomenal. Only played 2 sanctioned matches. Ever. But won both. L1a. Against highly ranked kids. They are going all in with tournaments this coming year. He will imo get a national ranking in 16s this year. He is that good. Reason? Crazy dad feeding balls all day every day. Lugging around a ball machine. Since 7 years old. The dad looks at all the videos. All the websites. Reads all the books. I love talking to him. He is very opinionated but he breathes tennis. It's amazing what he is doing.





Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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Yes. No question it has become the major thing outside of work in our lives. It's awesome.
 
G&G said:
Sorry but the parent, who did not play tennis by himself, is not a tennis coach, can’t teach his children proper technic. I know those stories about Agassi or Williams sisters, but nobody knows for sure how they learned tennis technic. I believe there are some other coaches behind this.

Saying that a parent can teach tennis, means that all the coaches, who studied how tennis is played, spent thousands of hours on court playing by themselves or teaching, are useless.

There are a lot of tennis instructors, who can perfectly feed the balls, but not so much good coaches that can teach kids to play tennis from zero.
Click to expand...
I've often thought that it would be good to give lessons to the parent or parents and the kid at the same time. Seems like long term this could have a really good outcome.
 
G&G said:
Sorry but the parent, who did not play tennis by himself, is not a tennis coach, can’t teach his children proper technic. I know those stories about Agassi or Williams sisters, but nobody knows for sure how they learned tennis technic. I believe there are some other coaches behind this.

Saying that a parent can teach tennis, means that all the coaches, who studied how tennis is played, spent thousands of hours on court playing by themselves or teaching, are useless.

There are a lot of tennis instructors, who can perfectly feed the balls, but not so much good coaches that can teach kids to play tennis from zero.
Click to expand...

NO ONE ELSE knows a child better than the parent who is interested in doing what is required to help the child be the best they can be.

Sorry, you might not have the time to spend to do that. But there are thousands of parents that do. I see it in many areas of life every day. And I see it in tennis circles as well, every day.

Just because someone has spent thousands of hours on court playing or teaching does not automatically mean they are appropriate tennis coaches. Coaching is primarily "Teaching". Not too many Professional Tennis Players are very good at "Teaching". However, good parents "teach" their children, every day.

Professional Tennis Coaches love to complicate this sport becase they have a vested interest in doing so. At the basic level, tennis is an extremely simple sport. The basic challenge is to keep it simple. We humans tend to be reallly good at complicating things to the point that the "Big Picture" disappears.

In some ways "Science" and "Sport Science" has a lot to answer for especially when it comes to tennis coaching. A classic example. So many coaches I have spent time with are obsessed with teaching young children to hit a Double Handed Backhand rather than a Single Handed Backhand. Often to the point that they refuse to teach a SHBH. Why is that? I know of quite a few junior players that struggled with learning a DHBH but are naturals at the SHBH. Savvy parents will pick up on these sorts of things and always put the child's needs before the Tennis Coach's needs.

I've seen and supported many parents in their endeavours to convince their children's tennis coaches to consider the individual. However many coaches adopt a Cookie Cutter approach because they have little to lose.
 
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nytennisaddict said:
personally, i fire students that don't practice (i let them know my expectations up front)
but to me, it's not worth my time if someone is not gonna practice.
Click to expand...

You shouldn't be "firing" you students if they are children. You should be "firing" their parents because they have not been up front with you about THEIR true expectations.

Also, aren't you being paid for your time? If you are, then what else do you expect?

Any extra work that the student puts in isn't about making the "Teacher" look good, it is about helping the "student". Isn't it?

Or have a misunderstood your meaning?
 
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Karma Tennis said:
You shouldn't be "firing" you students if they are children. You should be "firing" their parents because they have not been up front with you about THEIR true expectations.

Also, aren't you being paid for your time? If you are, then what else do you expect?

Any extra work that the student puts in isn't about making the "Teacher" look good, it is about helping the "student". Isn't it?

Or have a misunderstood your meaning?
Click to expand...
of course i don't actually tell the kids, "you're fired", but i do tell the parents, when it comes time to renew, that my sched changed, and will be unable to work with them.
i do tell them they are wasting money if the kid's aren't practicing.
just because you're getting paid for a job, doesn't mean you should stay with that job (and i don't get paid much, after taxes, etc...)
at least half the satisfaction (for me) of teaching comes from seeing a kid make progress
 
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