Coaching Payment Agreement.

BONUS FOR RESULTS!

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 80.0%
  • No

    Votes: 3 20.0%

  • Total voters
    15
#1
After this shocking split by Naomi for the same coach who suffered the same last year by Wozniacki, for the same reason (spiculations $$$) with the same story: great coaching, improvement and great results then the split! And after this whole story that happened with Kerber this year, I'm wondering about the coaching payment agreement in tennis, is it similar to other sports, BONUS FOR RESULTS? If it's not exist, Why not?


This is an article about this agreement on college football:
https://wtop.com/ncaa-football/2018...aches-became-a-tradition-in-college-football/

How big bonuses for winning coaches became a tradition in college football

Jasmine Harris, Ursinus College

(THE CONVERSATION) As college football bowl and playoff games unfold before a TV audience of millions, most of the attention will be on the final scores. Less is likely to be said about certain bonuses that the coaches get for their bowl and playoff appearances.


For instance, when the Fresno State Bulldogs defeated Arizona State in the Las Vegas Bowl on Dec. 15, the Bulldogs’ coach, Jeff Tedford, already being paid US$1.6 million per year through 2021, got a $200,000 bonus for the win. He would have gotten $100,000 even if his team had lost.

Western Michigan’s Tim Lester gets $25,000 for making it to the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl on Dec. 21.
 
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#2
Truth is, top WTA players who don't have big endorsement deals don't make a ton off the court like Rog, Novak, Rafa. A lot of their income is from prize money. This is why you'll see top 10 women playing warm up events the week before a major (New Zealand, Eastbourne, Connecticut, etc) whereas all the Top 10 guys sit out the week before a major to rest beforehand.

With that said, 25-30% of prize money is generally a common practice for coaches at majors (sometimes even higher). This isn't an issue for top ATP players, because they end up making more money off the court than on-the court anyways. So they can afford a big named coach and the prize money is just peanuts to them.

This is also why if I remember correctly, Priority One (who strings for a lot of top ATP players like Rog) do not get WTA clients. If Sharapova (highest endorsement WTA player by a lot) and Serena aren't going to shell out extra for top notch stringing, then even Osaka and Kerber are not going to pay more even with success at tourneys if the bonus % is going to increase.

Serena may have had a sweet deal with Mouroutaglou, because they were actually dating for a while, whilst he was coaching her (and still is to this day). I think Mo probably still coaches her just because it's good for his brand/academy. Serena even at thsi age still makes it deep in most tournaments.
 
#3
Paying extra money for good results is not a loss, if a coach helped a player to win tournaments (more prize money), and climbing the ranking (more sponsors), he deserves some reward for that.

I.e: a 250.000$ bonus for an extra 5m$ for a player, it's not a mistake!
 
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#4
There should always be clauses for performance, after all if the player performs better/starts winning events then their money is going to go up greatly, why should the person who plays the major hand in this not be rewarded as well?
 
#5
Just because a player has some better results doesn't mean the coach has been responsible. Way too many factors come into play in pro tennis. Besides, pro tennis coaches coach in a win/win situation. If their player wins, they get to take all the credit. If their player loses, they make sure their player takes all the blame. Bottom line is the coach is the players EMPLOYEE, and is only entitled to be paid what their EMPLOYER feels their worth is.
 
#6
Just because a player has some better results doesn't mean the coach has been responsible. Way too many factors come into play in pro tennis. Besides, pro tennis coaches coach in a win/win situation. If their player wins, they get to take all the credit. If their player loses, they make sure their player takes all the blame. Bottom line is the coach is the players EMPLOYEE, and is only entitled to be paid what their EMPLOYER feels their worth is.
"win/win" situation in which you don't actually win money? lol no thanks.

Working for exposure is a terrible idea. People don't understand that the employee/employer relationship goes both ways. It's a transaction. The employer can refuse to pay, but the employee can also refuse to take a job that doesn't value their worth.
 
#7
Paying extra money for good results is not a loss, if a coach helped a player to win tournaments (more prize money), and climbing the ranking (more sponsors), he deserves some reward for that.

I.e: a 250.000$ bounce for an extra 5m$ for a player, it's not a mistake!
I agree on the investment but coaches dont play and players still gotta make plays. Roger went coachless for a while with much success
 
#8
Just because a player has some better results doesn't mean the coach has been responsible. Way too many factors come into play in pro tennis. Besides, pro tennis coaches coach in a win/win situation. If their player wins, they get to take all the credit. If their player loses, they make sure their player takes all the blame. Bottom line is the coach is the players EMPLOYEE, and is only entitled to be paid what their EMPLOYER feels their worth is.
I see it the other way-the coach gets little or none of the credit when the player is winning & most of the blame when they are losing. A player going from 70 odd in the world to number 1 in the world, with her never having cracked the top 20 previously & winning consecutive slams in a year is highly unlikely to be down to much else than the coaches input.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
#9
After this shocking split by Naomi for the same coach who suffered the same last year by Wozniacki, for the same reason (spiculations $$$) with the same story: great coaching, improvement and great results then the split! And after this whole story that happened with Kerber this year, I'm wondering about the coaching payment agreement in tennis, is it similar to other sports, BOUNCE FOR RESULTS? If it's not exist, Why not?


This is an article about this agreement on college football:
https://wtop.com/ncaa-football/2018...aches-became-a-tradition-in-college-football/

How big bonuses for winning coaches became a tradition in college football

Jasmine Harris, Ursinus College

(THE CONVERSATION) As college football bowl and playoff games unfold before a TV audience of millions, most of the attention will be on the final scores. Less is likely to be said about certain bonuses that the coaches get for their bowl and playoff appearances.


For instance, when the Fresno State Bulldogs defeated Arizona State in the Las Vegas Bowl on Dec. 15, the Bulldogs’ coach, Jeff Tedford, already being paid US$1.6 million per year through 2021, got a $200,000 bonus for the win. He would have gotten $100,000 even if his team had lost.

Western Michigan’s Tim Lester gets $25,000 for making it to the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl on Dec. 21.
First, don't compare institutional team sports with a private player like in tennis.

Second, this kind of spending on big sports in the US has what has made life difficult for boys in tennis, as the scholarship money vanishes after paying these bonuses, and the remaining amount under Title 9 is less. Colleges should get rid of these big sports and big expenses and focus on academics and a thinned-down amateur sports program.
 
#10
This is an article about this agreement on college football:
https://wtop.com/ncaa-football/2018...aches-became-a-tradition-in-college-football/

How big bonuses for winning coaches became a tradition in college football

Jasmine Harris, Ursinus College

(THE CONVERSATION) As college football bowl and playoff games unfold before a TV audience of millions, most of the attention will be on the final scores. Less is likely to be said about certain bonuses that the coaches get for their bowl and playoff appearances.


For instance, when the Fresno State Bulldogs defeated Arizona State in the Las Vegas Bowl on Dec. 15, the Bulldogs’ coach, Jeff Tedford, already being paid US$1.6 million per year through 2021, got a $200,000 bonus for the win. He would have gotten $100,000 even if his team had lost.

Western Michigan’s Tim Lester gets $25,000 for making it to the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl on Dec. 21.
Guess who is the highest paid state employee in almost every state in the US?
 
#11
First, don't compare institutional team sports with a private player like in tennis.
What that to do with giving bonus for better results and therefore more income?!

Not sure if I explained my thoughts well enough. This is what I mean:
I.w: A player ranked around 50 with income of half million, then hired a coach, made a very significant & stable progress for a WHOLE season, became a top ten & winning more matches or even tournaments, the income in & out the court jumped to 3_10m$, Why the HELL the coach doesn't deserve a bonus!!!

Another thing, some questioning the value of a coach. Why do you guys think players hire & fire coaches, for the fun of it!
 
#12
After this shocking split by Naomi for the same coach who suffered the same last year by Wozniacki, for the same reason (spiculations $$$) with the same story: great coaching, improvement and great results then the split! And after this whole story that happened with Kerber this year, I'm wondering about the coaching payment agreement in tennis, is it similar to other sports, BOUNCE FOR RESULTS? If it's not exist, Why not?


This is an article about this agreement on college football:
https://wtop.com/ncaa-football/2018...aches-became-a-tradition-in-college-football/

How big bonuses for winning coaches became a tradition in college football

Jasmine Harris, Ursinus College

(THE CONVERSATION) As college football bowl and playoff games unfold before a TV audience of millions, most of the attention will be on the final scores. Less is likely to be said about certain bonuses that the coaches get for their bowl and playoff appearances.


For instance, when the Fresno State Bulldogs defeated Arizona State in the Las Vegas Bowl on Dec. 15, the Bulldogs’ coach, Jeff Tedford, already being paid US$1.6 million per year through 2021, got a $200,000 bonus for the win. He would have gotten $100,000 even if his team had lost.

Western Michigan’s Tim Lester gets $25,000 for making it to the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl on Dec. 21.
what about players ? players should get $10,000 bonus for making it to the Bowl games. and if they win, they should get $50,000 bonus and new porsche
 
#14
I'm okay if a slam winner chooses to give a 'bonus' to his/her coach, but I'm not of the opinion that it should be required. To me, a coach is 'paid' to improve a player's game. So if the game improves and wins more, then that's a job well done from the coach. If the game doesn't improve, or worse yet, it digresses (see Muguruza), then it sucks, but it's not like the player can pay the coach 'less' bc of it. Sure, they can 'fire' the coach by then, but if a coach did well, the opposite scenario is to 'keep' him, not to be required to give the coach a huge paycheck.

Sure, Bajin no doubt helped Osaka to improve and win, but helping her improve was his 'job'. And it's not like he can do that to just anybody. Osaka is world-class and THAT has a lot to do with it. Now, Bajin got fame for her results, too. That's worth $$, especially for his future gigs.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
#15
What that to do with giving bonus for better results and therefore more income?!

Not sure if I explained my thoughts well enough. This is what I mean:
I.w: A player ranked around 50 with income of half million, then hired a coach, made a very significant & stable progress for a WHOLE season, became a top ten & winning more matches or even tournaments, the income in & out the court jumped to 3_10m$, Why the HELL the coach doesn't deserve a bonus!!!

Another thing, some questioning the value of a coach. Why do you guys think players hire & fire coaches, for the fun of it!
A team in a University makes a collective decision about this kind of stuff, and it is approved all the way up and communicated to donors and alums.

One on one relationship is different. The main difference is that if a player has a down time next year (and in tennis there is no automatic medical insurance like college team sports), he can use any saved money. If a football team has poor results, players don't suffer and the coach might be let go, that is all.
 
#16
Paying extra money for good results is not a loss, if a coach helped a player to win tournaments (more prize money), and climbing the ranking (more sponsors), he deserves some reward for that.

I.e: a 250.000$ bonus for an extra 5m$ for a player, it's not a mistake!
Taxes. And assuming it was 30%... 250k is not 30% of 5 million. It's 1.5 million.
 
#17
I also think people forget tennis players are independent contractors. They pay their own travel, lodging if they dont wanna stay at tournament hotel, etc.

The top players are also probably paying a full time physio to travel with them as well. So paying base salary for the physio, coach, plus bonuses as well aa paying for their accommodations and it gets pretty expensive pretty quickly.
 
#18
Sharapova makes very little of her income off of prize money. She does big name endorsements like Porsche. Plus she runs four businesses too. Has vast real estate holding in three continents. Sharapova really plays tennis because she likes the game.
 
#19
Taxes. And assuming it was 30%... 250k is not 30% of 5 million. It's 1.5 million.
I don't understand you.

Never said they should get paid 30%. 250k$ from 5m$ is just 5%, is it too much a reward for a whole season effort?!

I also think people forget tennis players are independent contractors. They pay their own travel, lodging if they dont wanna stay at tournament hotel, etc.
They usually have the same schedule every year, staying more days in hotels doesn't need extra 1_3m$!


You guys make me laugh when talking about the way players spend money, claiming they need it so badly for sort of securing their future, don't you see their activities, mostly in gambling, buying expensive toys (super cars, yachts...etc), very expensive vacations...etc...etc...etc. and when it comes to those who worked hard with them, a 5% bonus becomes a big deal!
 
#21
I don't understand you.

Never said they should get paid 30%. 250k$ from 5m$ is just 5%, is it too much a reward for a whole season effort?!


They usually have the same schedule every year, staying more days in hotels doesn't need extra 1_3m$!


You guys make me laugh when talking about the way players spend money, claiming they need it so badly for sort of securing their future, don't you see their activities, mostly in gambling, buying expensive toys (super cars, yachts...etc), very expensive vacations...etc...etc...etc. and when it comes to those who worked hard with them, a 5% bonus becomes a big deal!
I'm telling you that standard coaching winnings % is 25-30%.

Where did you get 5% from?
 
#22
Truth is, top WTA players who don't have big endorsement deals don't make a ton off the court like Rog, Novak, Rafa. A lot of their income is from prize money. This is why you'll see top 10 women playing warm up events the week before a major (New Zealand, Eastbourne, Connecticut, etc) whereas all the Top 10 guys sit out the week before a major to rest beforehand.
There's more reasons than that, primarily that women are going from their WTA events to the major playing the same format with even more rest between matches. The men however are leaping up to best of 5 sets so top male players tend to get their lead-up event out of the way so they have a week in the grand slam city to iron out any physical kinks and acclimatise to conditions.

Note: the New Zealand WTA example you mention is not right. The ASB Classic WTA event is two weeks before the Aussie Open. The men's event is the week before the AO and often attacts top 10 players - just no the really big guns.
 
#23
Aren’t most pro level coaches usually a low base salary(relative to experience and player) then a % of prize $? Of course everything is negotioable. Then there are also USTA and other countries tennis associations coaches that are sometimes cheaper.

As far as college tennis coaches go all their salaries are usually online -the public universities all list them. Such as UCLA, UNC, CAL, Michigan etc They range from 80,000 USD to $400,000. Top end is prob less than 5 coaches. However their real money is made from the tennis camps they sponsor and do for the kids in the summer its very little work for a huge profit to them. In some cases it maybe close to their salary or more
 
#25
There's more reasons than that, primarily that women are going from their WTA events to the major playing the same format with even more rest between matches. The men however are leaping up to best of 5 sets so top male players tend to get their lead-up event out of the way so they have a week in the grand slam city to iron out any physical kinks and acclimatise to conditions.

Note: the New Zealand WTA example you mention is not right. The ASB Classic WTA event is two weeks before the Aussie Open. The men's event is the week before the AO and often attacts top 10 players - just no the really big guns.
Sorry i was thinking of Sydney, Auckland is the week before for ATP.
 
#26
Lendl and Andy split twice after the success they had (2013 and 2016) but I hardly think it was about the money.
And I bet to get Lendl on his team Lendl got one of the 30 page, detailed Brad Gilbert level coaching agreements that spells out everything including matters relating to: time, duties, salary, expense reimbursement, travel and accommodations, bonuses, termination provisions, survival/tail provisions etc...and not top 300 player hand shake + @oldmanfeds “a slam winner chooses to give a 'bonus' to his/her coach” deal.

But we don’t know because Lendl’s agreement probably had provisions relating to non-disclosure as well. ;)

“Here you go Ivan, take the kids out for ice cream on me. I just won my first Major and I’m going to be rolling in new endorsements so get double scoops if you want !” :-D
 
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upchuck

Professional
#27
Serena may have had a sweet deal with Mouroutaglou, because they were actually dating for a while, whilst he was coaching her (and still is to this day). I think Mo probably still coaches her just because it's good for his brand/academy. Serena even at thsi age still makes it deep in most tournaments.
Or maybe she's mature and wealthy enough to realise it pays to have a good coach and to compensate them well?
 
#28
Why are we comparing the coaches of a multi-tens into hundreds of millions of dollars per year programs that have upwards of 50 staff and 100 players with a single player tennis coach again?
 
#30
Wow this Osaka-Bajin split really is spawning lots of activity on this board. At the end of the day, coaching arrangements are an "at will" arrangement. Both sides can terminate and while the circumstances may have been bitter, as may be the case here, if the split was permitted under the contractual arrangement then there really is nothing to talk about. Even if Bajin contributed to Osaka's recent success it's pretty clear that Osaka's success will be a huge launchpad for future, more lucrative coaching gigs for Bajin. So again, nothing to criticize on either side.
 
#31
My understanding is that hitting partners get paid peanuts. I know the guy who was Shieh Su Wei's hitting partner and he got paid almost nothing as these guys are just happy to be hanging out on tour and being in the company of the best tennis players in the world. So it's quite likely that when Bajin signed up with Osaka as her coach he accepted a low base salary (probably with some incentives though). After Osaka's success in 2018, he probably asked for much higher base and higher incentives, in line with what much more established coaches get paid. Osaka (and possibly her family) balked, but they stayed together for the first month of a second year (January 2019) and after Osaka won the AO, Baijin probably insisted on the higher pay package. Osaka probably offered a raise but not enough to meet Baijin's ask and so they went their separate ways. It explains the tone of their tweets with Osaka's sounding cold and unhappy bc she probably thinks Baijin's a greedy and ungrateful coach who rode her coattails to some degree and Baijin probably feels glad that with his new Grand Slam credentials he's can move on from the stingy Osaka's and onto a more lucrative coaching assignment.
 
#32
Wow this Osaka-Bajin split really is spawning lots of activity on this board. At the end of the day, coaching arrangements are an "at will" arrangement. ...
I see you know a lot about coaching arrangements. :cool: Why does it not surprise me that an internet poster knows more about pro tennis coaching arrangements than Brad Gilbert does ? :unsure:

The "superstar" coaches are not retained on an at-will basis. Neither would any coach with a decent reputation among players. As already stated they have contracts and those contracts can go into sometimes great detail. It doesn't mean the player won't terminate the coach whenever the player desires but it will have the consequences spelled out in the coaching agreement.
 
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#33
Seems a player starting out can't afford top pay for great coach so coach should have contract where he gets % of winnings. At some point maybe player can afford to pay coach good salary and % winnings could become too high.
 
#34
I'm okay if a slam winner chooses to give a 'bonus' to his/her coach, but I'm not of the opinion that it should be required. To me, a coach is 'paid' to improve a player's game. So if the game improves and wins more, then that's a job well done from the coach.
I agree with you, of course they got paid for doing their job that's supposed to do. But when the accomplishments is much bigger than the plan, the development is so significant, then they deserve a piece of the pie. Don't you think?

Supposing the goal was reaching top 15 with some good results (quarters in GS), kind of 1m$ annual income, but they achieved much more, winning much more matches entering top 5, with income of 5_7m$ (including more sponsorship), I think the coach deserve a 100_200k$ bonus, is it too much? The price of a fast car!

GS prizes are high, shouldn't they get bonus when winning it, as what they do in other sports (for players & coaches).

Where did you get 5% from?
Just an example for a bonus for big wins, (250k$ from 5m$).
 
#35
If a coach feels they deserve a bonus for doing their job, they are sadly mistaken. The only person who decides when a bonus is deserved and paid is the person paying the bonus.
 
#39
I agree with you, of course they got paid for doing their job that's supposed to do. But when the accomplishments is much bigger than the plan, the development is so significant, then they deserve a piece of the pie. Don't you think?

Supposing the goal was reaching top 15 with some good results (quarters in GS), kind of 1m$ annual income, but they achieved much more, winning much more matches entering top 5, with income of 5_7m$ (including more sponsorship), I think the coach deserve a 100_200k$ bonus, is it too much? The price of a fast car!

GS prizes are high, shouldn't they get bonus when winning it, as what they do in other sports (for players & coaches).


Just an example for a bonus for big wins, (250k$ from 5m$).
I'm perfectly ok with 100-250k$ bonus for a slam win. I'd like to think that I'd give that much to my coach if it was me winning that slam :p. I'm less ok with hiking a salary that was say 300k-500k$ into 1M$+ bc of it, as their salaries do not get slashed had the player performed poorly instead. A small/reasonable increase in salary is due after some big results, but not a 100%-300% jump.
 
#40
I'd like to think that I'd give that much to my coach if it was me winning that slam :p.
I'd pay him half if he can make me a pro & win a slam :p.

By the way, I'm not suggesting a stable bonus after a successful year, Im just saying a bonus for that particular successful year, so second season remain the same original salary (maybe some extra if the player wanted).
 
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#41
All you that think bonus should be paid should also demand the players be reimbursed by the coach for all the tournament expenses in a loss.
No guts no glory. So who's in?
 
#42
All you that think bonus should be paid should also demand the players be reimbursed by the coach for all the tournament expenses in a loss.
No guts no glory. So who's in?
Then coach might need option to take the court and replace player in competition which would result in atp/wta rule changes on "substitution"
 
#44
Even with my proposal, it still favors the coach because they get a base pay regardless.
If players need a coach they can't afford, coach can agree to lesser salary but be entitled to future earnings even if no longer employed by player. Anything is possible, just put it in writing and have it be binding with the leagues. Players have a right to do it on their own if they choose.
 
#45
If players need a coach they can't afford, coach can agree to lesser salary but be entitled to future earnings even if no longer employed by player. Anything is possible, just put it in writing and have it be binding with the leagues. Players have a right to do it on their own if they choose.
Agree. I've heard of stories where bright young kids promise to provide free medical services after being supported during medical school.
 
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