COCHET playing obscure PRO matches with GREATS

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Carlo Giovanni Colussi, Apr 24, 2009.

  1. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    May 13, 2008
    Yesterday I received a book which made my day.
    If you look at Ray Bowers's accounts you will see that Budge-Vines-Tilden-Stoefen made a European 4-man tour (succession of either traditional 4-man tourneys with a first round and a final, or 4-man round robin events) in the summer 1939 and that they made a stop at Bordeaux (France), Villa Primrose just after the World Pro Champs on clay at Roland Garros. At Bordeaux the incomplete results given by Bowers were as follows : Budge d. Stoefen 61 97 and Tilden d. Vines 64 62.

    What I learnt in the book (about Bordeaux and the "La Villa Primrose stadium", clay courts) is that Budge and Tilden played against each other in the mentioned tournament (unfortunately there is no result) and that the dates of that pro tournament at Bordeaux were July 5-6, 1939. So for the moment nothing very interesting.

    But what made my day was that the third day at Bordeaux the Americans played a team event against France. France beat the USA 2-1 on July 7, 1939 :
    - the old Ramillon beat a tired Tilden (after the Roland and Bordeaux tournaments) 64 86 (Robert Ramillon wasn't a great player but he was a good player who in rare occasions could beat any top player),
    - Cochet d. a tired ... Budge 63 57 75 : in the report it was stated that this was the first time these players played against each other. This is the information that made my day. Until now I didn't know that both players had met. And though Cochet was past his prime he was still able to beat the best player in the world (on clay).
    The main information in the account was that Cochet temporized the rallies because he knew that he couldn't rival Budge in powerful and fast exchanges. Cochet even led at the start of the second set after having captured the 1st set,
    - in the doubles Budge-Vines d. Cochet-Ramillon 62 62 (the French according to the report being outpowered by the athletic Americans).

    My main question is : has anyone other match results between Budge and Cochet ? I don't think because the 4 Americans (and Budge in particular) continued their European tour outside France and that on September 1, the WWII began. Knowing that Cochet was reinstated amateur in 1941 (with the Borotra "laws") it is very unlikely that both players met again later.

    A subsidiary question : I think Cochet has never beaten Vines (both in the amateur and pro circuits). Is it 100% true ?

    Other player whom Cochet met : Nüsslein.
    As pc1 recalled McCauley stated that Cochet and Nüsslein met ten times (the Czech winning all the sets) but in McCauley's or Bowers' account only 3 matches are listed. Has anyone any info about the 7 matches left between these players ?
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2009
  2. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Dec 5, 2006
    Great information!

    Thanks Carlo!
  3. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

    Jul 18, 2008
    Space/Time continuum alternative reality
    I don't know if it's 100% true but according to Vines "I never regarded Cochet as that tough. I played him 12 times as an amateur and professional and never lost to him, probably because his game style was made to order for me. I could attack his serve and also take the net on mine. Tilden had trouble with him because he didn't play enough net. To beat Cochet you had to get in or he'd be on top of you with his incredible on-the-rise approach shots. I also believe his penchant for no-man's-land-midcourt-was ill advised when I was driving well off both sides."

    I find that Vines was generally honest in his opinions and I would think that he would know whether Cochet ever defeated him or not. I can see Vines perhaps getting the amount of times they play wrong but from this paragraph I would think Cochet never defeated him.

    Fascinating information that you gave Carlo. What book was it from?
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2009
  4. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    May 13, 2008
    see below ...
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2009
  5. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

    Jul 18, 2008
    Space/Time continuum alternative reality

    I can't think of any other meetings off the top of my head between Cochet and the greats you mentioned. I do have some interviews of Perry, Budge and Vines but I don't recall specific matches they mentioned. I know Perry mentioned he played Cochet often and that he led the series but I don't recall if he mentioned any scores.

    Thank you for the information on the book.
  6. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    May 13, 2008
    I think that Vines always beat Cochet because he won their 3 amateur meetings in 1932-1933 and because in Ray Bowers' and McCauley's pro results Vines was always the winner but as you can note for the Cochet-Budge meeting there are still many hidden results.

    From memory Vines even beat Cochet more than 12 times because he beat him 3 times in the amateur ranks as said just before but also at least 10 times (in 10 meetings) in the USA-France team tour held early in 1934. In mid-May began the US tourneys season and Vines beat Cochet at least (because Bowers didn't give all the results) at The Eastern Pro Championships, New York. Then as Bowers stated "Cochet and Plaa, who were earning little money as losing semi-finalists, had already started back to France".
    Then apparently Vines and Cochet never met once again :
    - Cochet played little in the second half of 1934 (being ill around Garros tournament).
    - In 1935 Cochet made his world tour sponsored by the French government.
    - From 1936 to 1938 Vines didn't play any tourney,
    - In 1939 the only occasion of a meeting would have been Garros (but Cochet lost to Tilden) and Bordeaux but Vines wasn't chosen as a singles player (see above).

    So except hidden results among the last US tourneys played by Cochet in 1934 (and some unknown event in France when the 4 US men toured in Europe) Vines beat Cochet 14 times (3 amateur meetings, 10 pro team events, 1 pro tourney).

    As Vines stated (according to your post) perhaps Cochet's game suited Elly but Vines was a bit lucky to face a Cochet a bit over the hill (first meeting in 1932) and only once on clay (except of course any obscure match) where Cochet extended Vines to 5 sets in Davis Cup dead-rubber match. It is likely that if Vines had met Cochet at his prime and on every surface, Cochet would have won a few matches.

    I bought the book
    "La Villa Primrose
    un siècle d'histoire sportive à Bordeaux (1897-1997)"

    on the French site of e B a y (I spell it with separation otherwise the word is blanked, note that I do the same below for the url address) and received it just yesterday so I just had time to skim through a few pages.
    As very often in French sources there are no details and I have deduced my infos after about half an hour of research though the first page I opened when I took that book was that of the pro team event between France and the USA.

    Could I deduce from you and SgtJohn's posts that you have no knowledge of other obscure pro meetings (not registered in Bowers' or McCauley's works) between Cochet and other greats of the time (Nüsslein, Vines, Budge, Tilden, Perry) ?

    I don't know how to insert an image in that forum so I give you the Url link of the image of the book cover :
    http://i11.e b a (I recall that I've written this url address with some blanks not existing in the true address)

    In that book there is for instance the complete draw of the Bordeaux tournament won by Wilding in 1908.

    Other point not related to that one : I've edited my post about "The most talented player" by adding a few words about Philippoussis and Nalbandian.
    Last edited: May 13, 2009
  7. Idzznew

    Idzznew Rookie

    Feb 18, 2009
    Hello Carlo,

    Its very interesting reading stuff you post everytime. I'm collecting as complete as possible all pre 1968 results and publish them on my site,
    Im very interested in the draw of the 1908 Bordeaux tournament. Is it possible to send me a scan of that draw. I would be most grateful!!

    Hope to hear from you
    mail: idzznew (at)
  8. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    May 13, 2008
    Hello Idzznew, thanks for the congratulations.

    The Bordeaux tournament was open for the first time in 1907 for players not club members so you can imagine that the field wasn’t that strong (in 1908 the only good entry was Wilding and the only other player who later became a good player was Jean Samazeuilh (Wilding's opponent in the first round, and future winner of the French (amateur) Closed Championships in 1921).
    I have no scanner but I’m not sure you would see the (scanned) draw because in my book this is a photo of the handwritten draw and I can’t decipher all the characters.
    Often the first name of a player isn’t given which is annoying because some of the players were relatives so I added it whenever I had some presumption elsewhere (for instance there were many Samazeuilhs playing tennis : brothers, father …).
    So I give you what I can read and deduce or understand :
    1st round (round of 14) :
    Wilding d. Jn (I guess “Jean”) Samazeuilh 60 60 / Bertie Seward d. Pujol 60 61 / (possibly Jean) Montariol d. Derazey (I’m not sure of the “r” in Derazey) 62 61 / Henri de Clouet d. Mény w.o. / Weber d. H. Lawton w.o. / Delalande d. Porte (once again I’m not sure of the “r” in Porte) w.o. / Jques (I guess “Jacques”) Samazeuilh d. Chandezon 62 63 / Daniel Lawton bye
    Quarters :
    Wilding d. Bertie Seward (a real tennis player who chopped all his strokes and who slightly bothered Anthony at times, in fact in Bordeaux era many tennis players came from real tennis, lawn tennis ancestor) 61 64 / Montariol d. Henri de Clouet 63 61 / Weber d. Delalande 62 63 / Daniel Lawton d. Jques (I guess “Jacques”) Samazeuilh 63 06 75
    Semis :
    Wilding d. Montariol 60 62 / Daniel Lawton d. Weber 26 62 64
    Final :
    Wilding d. Daniel Lawton 62 60 61

    So you can note that the draw was mainly composed of local Bordelais players with only Wilding as an international player (he lost only 10 games in 4 matches) so that event was probably the equivalent of a modern "Futures" tourney except that in these events no Top20 player (as was Wilding at the time) is allowed to enter.

    Because I’ve seen in your site that there are no Garros 1936 results for Cramm I suggest you to look at some old Garros results at PALMARES 1925-2006.
    There are a few errors as in 1962 (Phillips-Moore beat Constantin Nastase and not Ilie his famous younger brother), 1957 (Gimeno probably beat Henri Pellizza and not Pierre his elder who was professional) and in 1938 where all the results from “A. Baworowski (9) 61 57 61 61” to “D. Budge (1) 61 62 64” are displaced : you have to come down a notch for each of these results. Thus the right results of the round of 64 in the lower part of the draw are “B. Panker d. L. Chevallier w.o.” and “A. Baworowski (9) d. B. Berthet 61 57 61 61” to “D. Budge (1) d. A. Gentien 61 62 64”. And in the round of 32 “A. Baworowski (9) d. B. Panker w.o.”,
    however it's quite interesting.
  9. Idzznew

    Idzznew Rookie

    Feb 18, 2009
    Hi Carlo,

    Thanks so much for your reply. I wll add the results as soon as I can. Thanks for pointing me to errors. Im always happy with that because ofcoure I want the site to become as complete and accurate as possible. Ive just started the site and naturally there are tons of reults and players to be added. I have the complete single results of all grandslams and ofcourse the Mccauley book for the proffesional results. So give me a little more time and hopefully some helping hands and the site will grow rapidly.
    I already recive results from the US by DavidD and european results from a dutch contact. I can do with Australian results so if possible they are always wellcome.

    Thanks again
  10. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    May 13, 2008
    Hi Alex,
    I've seen in your site the following result at Wimby 1936 :
    Budge, James Donald (Don) d. Leseuer, Jean (6-1 6-1 6-1).

    If I'm not wrong the true names are
    Budge, John Donald (Don)
    , Jean

    And you're right about Feret, Paul in the English transcription but in French it's Féret, Paul
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2009
  11. Idzznew

    Idzznew Rookie

    Feb 18, 2009
    Thanks again Carlo,

    I changed the errors. It's good having somebody helping to develope the site

  12. Q&M son

    Q&M son Professional

    Apr 12, 2008
    Trenque Lauquen, BA, Argentina.
    Great thread, great reading.
    Bump for share again.
  13. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Dec 3, 2006
    Hi Carlo, that was a Budge victory, per a report I found recently in a Brazilian newspaper, Correio Paulistano. The paper reported matches held on July 6th, and mentioned the French-US tie to occur on the 7th:

    Coisas do tennis

    NARDEAUX, 7 (H.)—Muitas partidas em disputa do Campeonato do Mundo de Tennis profissional foram jogadas hontem, nesta cidade, com os seguintes resultados:

    Simples finaes – Budge venceu Tilden, por 4-6, 7-5 e 7-5; Vines venceu Stoeffen, por 6-4 e 7-5.

    Duplas para cavalheiros, final: Budge-Vines venceram Tilden-Stoeffen, por 8-6 e 6-4.

    Hoje, o tenista francez Amilton enfrentará Tilden e Cochet, jogará contra Budge.

    Finalmente a dupla Cochet-Ramillon enfrentará Budge-Vines.​
    I don't know Portuguese but it's similar to Spanish which I know; and I used Google Translate (ontem=yesterday).

    The French-US tie was also reported in a French publication you may know, Tennis Et Golf: organe officiel de la fédération francaise et de fédération belge de golf (July 16 edition). It reports the matches that took place on the first day, July 5; apparently Cochet and Ramillon played on that day, too, in the doubles.

    You may be able to help here (or anyone who knows French); the singles results are clear, and they correspond to McCauley; and it's clear that Cochet-Ramillon lost. But what was the winning team? Tilden/Vines?

    Au lendemain du dit Championnat du Monde, nos exhibitionnistes se rendaient à Bordeaux oú la Villa Primrose s'était fait un plaisir d'organiser leur tournoi. Celui-ci était complété au surplus d'une rencontre "France-Etats-Unis" qui n'était pas pour diminuer la curiosité du public.
    Tout fut pour le mieux, puisque la recette récoltée devait satisfaire les plus exigeants.
    Tennis et Golf, n'ayant pas ménagé l'espace de son compte-rendu pour la grande manifestation parisienne, sera évidemment moins généreux pour la tournée de ces Messieurs; contentons-nous de dire que Budge fut vainqueur de Stoefen 6-1 9-7; Tilden de Vines 6-4 6-2; que ces deux derniers eurent raison, en double, de Cochet-Ramillon 11-9 6-3, mais que ceux-ci, le lendemain, -- juste retour des choses d'icibas, -- enlevèrent la recontre France-Etats Unis.
    Ainsi tout le monde aura été bien content.
    A Marseille, par la suite, les quatre Champions américains, obtenaient de manière tout aussi avantageuse, les faveurs du public.​
    I can't find any report of the singles matches at Marseilles, except for the second day which was reported in the same Brazilian newspaper, Correio Paulistano:

    Stoefen d. Tilden 6-1, 6-4
    Vines d. Budge 6-8, 6-3, 6-4
    Budge/Vines beat Tilden/Stoefen 6-4, 6-4, 6-4

    With this result I now have 5 victories by Vines over Budge in the European tour, which corresponds to the 5-15 tally that's been commonly reported over the years (I believe Kramer was the source for the tally; it's also reported in Bowers).

    Presumably, then, Budge took all of their other meetings in that tour (I have 8 such wins documented).

    Vines sent this postcard from Marseilles to American Lawn Tennis:

    Ellsworth Gets About

    Grass courts in Marseilles? Ellsworth Vines is our authority for the statement that such courts exist. On July 9 “Ell” sent a post card to ALT reading as follows:

    We are playing here at the Stade Velodrome on grass. Budge won the French pro title in Paris from me in three sets. Then we played in Bordeaux against the French where Cochet defeated Budge and Ramillon defeated Tilden. Oh yes, in Paris Stoefen beat Nusslein in three straight.

    From here we go to London for five weeks then Scandinavia for two weeks. Well, best from all the boys. As ever, Ells.​

    For a man who is through with tennis the foregoing is quite an ambitious program.​
  14. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Dec 3, 2006
    They would have met again at Roland Garros, in a type of Davis Cup format, on September 2-3. But as you know the war broke out on the 1st.

    This was in Tennis Et Golf, in their last edition (September 1) before the outbreak of war suspended further publications:

    Une rencontre France-Amérique Professionnels aura lieu les 2 et 3 september au Stade Roland-Garros.

    H. Cochet et Ramillon joueront pour la France. D. Budge et Vines représenteront l'Amérique.

    La recontre sera disputée selon la formule de la Coupe Davis: quatre simples et un double.​

    Google Translate:

    A meeting France-America Professionals will be held on 2 and 3 september at Roland Garros Stadium.

    H. Cochet and Ramillon play for France. D. Budge and Vines represent America.

    The recontre will be played according to the formula of the Davis Cup four singles and one doubles.​
    Tilden and the tour manager, Jack Harris, said that they had to cancel "a return match in Paris," but as far as I know they did not specify what type of meeting that was to be.

    I'm sure if Budge and Cochet had met at Roland Garros, the result would not have been obscure until now.
  15. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Dec 3, 2006
    An English newspaper, The Star, referred to the Cochet-Budge match and a few others on this tour in its edition of Aug. 12, 1939:

    In spite of his 47 years this great tennis craftsman [Tilden] is still able to spring surprises, and his astonishing victory over Budge, 24 years his junior, by 6-3, 7-5, 6-4, at Southport the other day, was by no means the least of these.

    Even if Budge was a bit off colour—and Donald cannot always be at concert pitch—Tilden’s victory was none the less a brilliant bit of work for a veteran.

    Budge, Tilden and Company, with a visit to Scandinavia in prospect, have certainly been getting about lately, and Budge, as at Southport, has not always had it his own way.

    At Bordeaux, for instance, in an America v. France match, Budge was beaten by Cochet while Tilden, incidentally, fell to that elegant stroke-maker, Ramillon.

    On the more important occasions, however, such as the Professional Championships of France, staged at the Stade Roland Garros, Budge, who beat Vines in the final of this event, has been invariably first past the post.

    Is The Writing On The Wall?

    THE match between Tilden and Cochet, who had met so often before in Paris in their amateur days, created very great interest and developed into a characteristic five-set battle.

    In the end, Tilden, hitting viciously at any balls within reach and wisely letting the wider ones go, just nosed out in the fifth set after Cochet, who is still very fast about the court, had led 5-4 in this deciding set.

    Evidently the authorities in France take a different view of professional tennis from that of our own L.T.A., or they would not have allowed this meeting, which was really a series of exhibition games, to be staged at the Stade Roland Garros, the Wimbledon of France.

    So far in this country no professional exhibition games have been played on courts under the control of our L.T.A., a policy with which quite a few disagree.

    It is interesting to note that these French professional championships drew far bigger crowds to the Stade Roland Garros than the French amateur meeting which preceded it had; indeed, it was more like the days when the famous “Musketeers” drew all Paris.

    Does this mean that the writing is on the wall and that “open” tournaments are appreciably nearer?​
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2015
  16. DMP

    DMP Professional

    Jul 8, 2013
    Sadly they had a long time to wait.
  17. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Dec 3, 2006
    A couple of years ago I got the book that Carlo mentions in the opening post of this thread, La Villa Primrose: Un siècle d’histoire sportive à Bordeaux (1897-1997). I was hunting for information about 1939 and did not realize, until today, that it contained some information about the pro tour of '57.

    Yesterday Tennis Base found a stop in Bordeaux on October 5-6, 1957, by Rosewall, Hoad, Segura and Kramer. They played at Villa Primrose, so I went looking in my book and sure enough the stop is documented there:


    The full results:

    October 5-6 in Bordeaux
    Villa Primrose, outdoor clay
    First day:
    Rosewall d. Hoad 6-4, 6-3
    Kramer d. Segura 6-3, 7-5
    Rosewall/Kramer beat Hoad/Segura 6-3, 11-9
    Second day:
    Segura d. Rosewall 6-2, 6-3
    Kramer d. Hoad 2-6, 6-4, 6-4
    Kramer/Segura beat Rosewall/Hoad 4-6, 6-4, 12-10

    The doubles results, the surface, the location, are all entirely new: but the singles results are not. I listed them in my 1957 tour thread as taking place in Paris on October 6, because the only report I had about the event was an article filed from Paris, with the matches reported but no indication whatsoever of where they took place. So I listed them as taking place in Paris and presumed them to be indoors, but it just seemed to me like there was something wrong. Mystery now solved.

    I've updated that 1957 thread and made one more minor change, shifting the days in Lyon back to Oct. 3 and 4. The troupe was reported to have come to Bordeaux directly from Lyon, where they had played indoors.
    BobbyOne and treblings like this.

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