College hooking rules for Juniors???

coloskier

Legend
If you hadn't heard about it, a college match was ended because a player was caught making an obvious bad call for a third time in a match, was losing 5-4, down a set, and because of the bad call got a game penalty, thus losing the match, and cost the team the match as well. I think it is time for the USTA to do the same thing in Juniors. There is so much hooking going on right now due to rankings and sponsorship pressure, that I think the USTA needs to do something. Unfortunately, this is being deliberately overlooked, especially if the player is local to the tournament site.
 

papatenis

Semi-Pro
Just learned something very interesting at my kids last nat'l 18's tournament.
The very top players (5 star and blue chip) have a list of players that they feel ok to lose to and another list of players that they will cheat if they have to just so that they don't lose to them.

This is coming from a couple of girls that I've always though were honest and fair players.
 

coloskier

Legend
Just learned something very interesting at my kids last nat'l 18's tournament.
The very top players (5 star and blue chip) have a list of players that they feel ok to lose to and another list of players that they will cheat if they have to just so that they don't lose to them.

This is coming from a couple of girls that I've always though were honest and fair players.
Not surprising. I know of a few girls in particular that use this strategy that are both ranked in the top 10 Girls 18. Not only will they not play them, they will usually injury default if they are getting beat before they lose, or they will hook them very badly. And it is also amazing how they are almost never put in the same bracket as some other players so that they can't meet unless it is the finals. I truly believe that the draws are not random, and that certain players get "placed" so that a semi final showing is certain. Yes, I know that seedings play a small part, but it has become too consistent lately that this happens. Certain players in the top 10 NEVER meet certain players who are ranked in the "20's" but have suffered consistent losses to them in the past,
 
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SoCal10s

Hall of Fame
Just learned something very interesting at my kids last nat'l 18's tournament.
The very top players (5 star and blue chip) have a list of players that they feel ok to lose to and another list of players that they will cheat if they have to just so that they don't lose to them.

This is coming from a couple of girls that I've always though were honest and fair players.

it's all there ... from my experience ,I see girls cheating more than boys.. only a very few boys will cheat when they get older ,but those girls keep on firing even (as you say) in the 18s division ...
 
Okay kids, no more competitive tennis. It's rigged and rife with dishonesty. We're switching to figure skating!

Kidding, naturally.

At which point are parents making it possible for their kids to think that way? Pretty sick and sad. It's like their religion is college or pro tennis, and that being a blue chip recruit is their path to the promised land.

I pray I can give my kids the freedom to play (win or lose) with dignity, grace, love and honor. The moment they get home from school (and right before we go out to play tennis tomorrow) I will hug them and re-emphasize that we're playing for the goodness of playing. Not winning. Not for rankings. Not for college recruitment. Not for money. Not for reputation (because their dad and grandfather played at a high level). Not for pride. Just for the fun of it.

I realize this is not the way to make a champion in terms of results.
 

a-naik.1

Professional
The national girls that I teach up here have similar mentalities...especially the 16s and the 18s. I try everything and anything possible to minimize cheating, but it's hard when parents are encouraging it :\ There are a couple boys that do it as well, but it's not as predominate.
 

tennismutti

New User
even in canada

It is so common here at both provincial and Jr ITF tournaments. My kids are taught to notify the opponent that the cheating is not going to be tolerated. They then leave the court and ask for a line judge from the tournament director. Is this the same in the US?
 

coloskier

Legend
It is so common here at both provincial and Jr ITF tournaments. My kids are taught to notify the opponent that the cheating is not going to be tolerated. They then leave the court and ask for a line judge from the tournament director. Is this the same in the US?
You can call for a judge, but they will never stay their for more than a game or two, because there are very few line judges covering a lot of courts. As soon as the USTA official leaves, the hooking starts up again. I have even seen it so bad that in a sectional tournament final the USTA official let dubious calls go because one of the players was local because the official would probably been lynched by the local fans if she started to overrule calls.

The only way this stops is if every tournament has an unknown "stealth official" who is not local and has the authority to watch a match and after three bad calls will call an official and the offending player is given an immediate one game penalty without the player knowing who this judge is. Then the players will never know if a judge is watching their match and that they can't take the chance that they will get caught. That will clean up hooking in a hurry.
 
I like the plainclothesed 'stealth' official concept. But at the same time, it's kind of sad it's come to that.

I want to teach my kids that integrity is when we do the right thing when nobody's looking. That's got to come from within.

EDIT:
I do not envy the job of today's coaches, teachers and [gulp] parents.
 
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a-naik.1

Professional
You can call for a judge, but they will never stay their for more than a game or two, because there are very few line judges covering a lot of courts. As soon as the USTA official leaves, the hooking starts up again. I have even seen it so bad that in a sectional tournament final the USTA official let dubious calls go because one of the players was local because the official would probably been lynched by the local fans if she started to overrule calls.

The only way this stops is if every tournament has an unknown "stealth official" who is not local and has the authority to watch a match and after three bad calls will call an official and the offending player is given an immediate one game penalty without the player knowing who this judge is. Then the players will never know if a judge is watching their match and that they can't take the chance that they will get caught. That will clean up hooking in a hurry.
This is somewhat true. It varies from region to region really. In USTA Tournaments THEY ARE REQUIRED to stay for at least 2-3 games. And the line judge is not allowed to make calls, unless you, the person questioning the call, asks the line judge if it is in or out. I've been called to be a line judge for many matches now, and as a Tourny moderator, you are supposed to loosely monitor the matches that have already had line judges called on them to make sure everything is running smoothely. When I was playing in the 14s, 16s, and 18s. As soon as I had 2 bad calls, I would get a line judge. So you guys know, that once a line judge is called twice, that line judge is required to stay for the remainder of the set (I think). I believe that High School rules are similar to this in regards to line judges.
 

coloskier

Legend
This is somewhat true. It varies from region to region really. In USTA Tournaments THEY ARE REQUIRED to stay for at least 2-3 games. And the line judge is not allowed to make calls, unless you, the person questioning the call, asks the line judge if it is in or out. I've been called to be a line judge for many matches now, and as a Tourny moderator, you are supposed to loosely monitor the matches that have already had line judges called on them to make sure everything is running smoothely. When I was playing in the 14s, 16s, and 18s. As soon as I had 2 bad calls, I would get a line judge. So you guys know, that once a line judge is called twice, that line judge is required to stay for the remainder of the set (I think). I believe that High School rules are similar to this in regards to line judges.
In USTA tourneys that I play in I have seen calls overturned numerous times by roving officials. I've even seen them call foot faults while watching. Maybe it is a local rule in your area. The same for an official having to stay after being called a 2nd time. Here you are lucky to get them to come and stay even once.
 

a-naik.1

Professional
In USTA tourneys that I play in I have seen calls overturned numerous times by roving officials. I've even seen them call foot faults while watching. Maybe it is a local rule in your area. The same for an official having to stay after being called a 2nd time. Here you are lucky to get them to come and stay even once.
Yeah USTA rules are based on regions (which I don't totally understand half the time).
 
Yeah USTA rules are based on regions (which I don't totally understand half the time).
I did not know that, that's pretty funny. I mean, I understand if it's roster requirements or something based on actual regional differences like population density or something. But rules and reg's on cheating, conduct and the like? That's odd.
 

tennis1970

New User
Accusing a player of hooking is all speculative...unless the player admits to hooking.

The problem with line calling is this...it is the players responsibility to call the lines ON HIS/HER own side. EVERYONE else interpreting the lines is either a spectator or on the other side of the net, or maybe by the score cards (an official). They technically are not in ANY position to call a line correctly. The ONLY person who can really make the best judgement is a true LINE JUDGE who is positioned IN LINE with the single line they are judging (ie. the pro tournaments). And we know from shot spot that even these folks make errors (though we are talking about balls flying really fast and millimeters). And just because a ball is overturned by an offical doesn't mean the official is correct either (remember I just said the official is rarely in the correct position to call the lines as well).

There are not resources of course to have real line judges at junior tourneys...so we are left with friend of court and hoping each player is making the BEST call possible. Some calls WILL be incorrect, but whether it is hooking or not you can only speculate.

The problem I see is players tend just to error on the side of "out" rather than the ball being "in" especially when it could be controversial. Example, two players at the net in doubles match get passed and ball hits back of court "near the line"..Now tell me how they can really tell if it is in or out???? they are not even near the baseline and probably were looking forward when it actually hit. This is where I think the poor sportsmanship and hooking all arises from. More often than not the team is going to call the ball out rather than giving the benefit of the doubt it ticked the line and congratulate the other side on a nice passing shot.

Yes. there will always be cheaters.
 

coloskier

Legend
Accusing a player of hooking is all speculative...unless the player admits to hooking.

The problem with line calling is this...it is the players responsibility to call the lines ON HIS/HER own side. EVERYONE else interpreting the lines is either a spectator or on the other side of the net, or maybe by the score cards (an official). They technically are not in ANY position to call a line correctly. The ONLY person who can really make the best judgement is a true LINE JUDGE who is positioned IN LINE with the single line they are judging (ie. the pro tournaments). And we know from shot spot that even these folks make errors (though we are talking about balls flying really fast and millimeters). And just because a ball is overturned by an offical doesn't mean the official is correct either (remember I just said the official is rarely in the correct position to call the lines as well).

There are not resources of course to have real line judges at junior tourneys...so we are left with friend of court and hoping each player is making the BEST call possible. Some calls WILL be incorrect, but whether it is hooking or not you can only speculate.

The problem I see is players tend just to error on the side of "out" rather than the ball being "in" especially when it could be controversial. Example, two players at the net in doubles match get passed and ball hits back of court "near the line"..Now tell me how they can really tell if it is in or out???? they are not even near the baseline and probably were looking forward when it actually hit. This is where I think the poor sportsmanship and hooking all arises from. More often than not the team is going to call the ball out rather than giving the benefit of the doubt it ticked the line and congratulate the other side on a nice passing shot.

Yes. there will always be cheaters.
When the ball lands 6 inches inside the baseline and the player will call it out, especially on a break point, that is not speculative, and is unfortunately very common, especially with a few certain players.
 

PatrickB

Rookie
And the line judge is not allowed to make calls, unless you, the person questioning the call, asks the line judge if it is in or out.
As a certified official for several years, I can tell you that this is plain and simply not true. In USTA matches, officials on court must overrule an incorrect out call *immediately*. In particular, if the player has time to appeal, it's *too late* to overrule. Friend at Court is explicit on both of these facts, and I can quote you chapter and verse on this if need be. Perhaps you're thinking of ITA (intercollegiate) matches, which do require a player appeal.

So you guys know, that once a line judge is called twice, that line judge is required to stay for the remainder of the set (I think).
This is again blantantly not true. When an official is called to court, he/she generally attempts to stay for 2-3 games, but is not required to, especially if that official is responsible for lots of courts or something comes up on another court.
 

PatrickB

Rookie
Yeah USTA rules are based on regions (which I don't totally understand half the time).
USTA rules are for all USTA sanctioned matches. Some tournaments, leagues, and regions may have local rules which override USTA rules, but USTA rules themselves do *not* vary by region.
 

coloskier

Legend
As a certified official for several years, I can tell you that this is plain and simply not true. In USTA matches, officials on court must overrule an incorrect out call *immediately*. In particular, if the player has time to appeal, it's *too late* to overrule. Friend at Court is explicit on both of these facts, and I can quote you chapter and verse on this if need be. Perhaps you're thinking of ITA (intercollegiate) matches, which do require a player appeal.



This is again blatantly not true. When an official is called to court, he/she generally attempts to stay for 2-3 games, but is not required to, especially if that official is responsible for lots of courts or something comes up on another court.
Thank you for clearing that up. On a personal note, what is your opinion of what an official should do if one of the courts has a player who is known for questionable calls? Should they stay at that court even if they know the minute they leave the bad calls will start immediately? What do you think about my suggestion of a "stealth official"? My opinion is that questionable calls will stop if a player thinks there is a chance they will get caught, especially if they think there is a chance that there is an official watching but do not know who the official is or what they are wearing.
 
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woodrow1029

Guest
Yeah USTA rules are based on regions (which I don't totally understand half the time).
in a USTA sanctioned tournament, the roving official CANNOT OVERRULE BASED ON A PLAYER APPEAL. It must be an immediated overrule.

In collegiate tennis, the roving official or chair umpire CAN ONLY OVERRULE AFTER A VERBAL APPEAL FROM THE PLAYER.

These are rules that are not different by sections.
 
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woodrow1029

Guest
I didnt see that PatrickB had already addressed the issue until now. so now I am just backing up his response.
 

PatrickB

Rookie
As an official, I do tend to spend more time on courts where there has been trouble or where players have a history of problematic behavior than on courts where things are running smoothly. And of course, if other matches finish and there are only one or two matches on the courts I'm working, I'll be there much more often.

However, frequently you have very few officials for lots of courts. For example, locally we try to do one rover per four courts for any major tournament, but for a variety of reasons (shortage of available officials, TDs running more courts than normal when the schedule falls behind, etc.) sometimes you'll end up with one official working many more. This last year I worked two tournaments where, because of legitimate scheduling reasons, we had 2 or 3 officials for 18 courts. (In one case, each official ended up working at least a 14 hour shift...)

When you have one official working lots of courts like this, the official simply can't stay on one court too long; the other players paid entry fees and are entitled to the services of an official as well, and letting a bad player monopolize an official to the detriment of the other players would also be unfair.

In terms of a "stealth official", I simply think it wouldn't work well. First, it would require tournament directors to hire more officials, which they're already loathe to do. Such a "stealth official" would only be useful if they could overrule calls from *off court*, in many cases from far away through windscreens. To overrule such a call with certainty, the call would have to be monumentally bad, and while such calls do occur, they are still rare. These officials also couldn't conduct the full responsibilities of an official such as preparing courts for play or coming on court to overrule incorrect close calls. Essentially you'd be asking TDs to hire officials to work a full day that could not perform their full responsibilities and would only be useful in pretty rare circumstances - that's simply not going to happen.
 

coloskier

Legend
As an official, I do tend to spend more time on courts where there has been trouble or where players have a history of problematic behavior than on courts where things are running smoothly. And of course, if other matches finish and there are only one or two matches on the courts I'm working, I'll be there much more often.

However, frequently you have very few officials for lots of courts. For example, locally we try to do one rover per four courts for any major tournament, but for a variety of reasons (shortage of available officials, TDs running more courts than normal when the schedule falls behind, etc.) sometimes you'll end up with one official working many more. This last year I worked two tournaments where, because of legitimate scheduling reasons, we had 2 or 3 officials for 18 courts. (In one case, each official ended up working at least a 14 hour shift...)

When you have one official working lots of courts like this, the official simply can't stay on one court too long; the other players paid entry fees and are entitled to the services of an official as well, and letting a bad player monopolize an official to the detriment of the other players would also be unfair.

In terms of a "stealth official", I simply think it wouldn't work well. First, it would require tournament directors to hire more officials, which they're already loathe to do. Such a "stealth official" would only be useful if they could overrule calls from *off court*, in many cases from far away through windscreens. To overrule such a call with certainty, the call would have to be monumentally bad, and while such calls do occur, they are still rare. These officials also couldn't conduct the full responsibilities of an official such as preparing courts for play or coming on court to overrule incorrect close calls. Essentially you'd be asking TDs to hire officials to work a full day that could not perform their full responsibilities and would only be useful in pretty rare circumstances - that's simply not going to happen.
I agree with you that TD's don't want to hire extra officials. It is as much a cost issue as an "I don't want to have to deal with it" issue.
 
I love the stealth official in theory, but no matter how well-trained they'd be, it wouldn't take long for player to learn their faces. Also, I don't think fake glasses and moustaches are in the USTA budget.

I think the answer must come from the parents and coaches. Cheating has got to be looked upon as a sign of pure weakness. No looking the other way. No snickering at it. No tacit condoning of cheating. No calling it something subtle. No hipster subversive quotient. Just plain weakness. And not in a good way.
 
happens in hs too. my friend played a tournament and i was watching. he was up third set 6-5 and on match point the opponents dad started randomly yelling during the point. and then my friend painted the line clearly and the other guy looks at his dad and calls out........ seriously? cheating gets you no where and i think they need to enforce it not just by having one guy walk around to oversee like 15 matches. they need like 1 ref per 2 match. But in my case if i cant see it ill call it in. or in dubs i trust my partner enough to make the right call.
 

PatrickB

Rookie
happens in hs too. my friend played a tournament and i was watching. he was up third set 6-5 and on match point the opponents dad started randomly yelling during the point. and then my friend painted the line clearly and the other guy looks at his dad and calls out........ seriously? cheating gets you no where and i think they need to enforce it not just by having one guy walk around to oversee like 15 matches. they need like 1 ref per 2 match. But in my case if i cant see it ill call it in. or in dubs i trust my partner enough to make the right call.
As an official, I'd *love* to have 1 official per two matches; however, officials aren't free and there aren't that many of us in most places. Would you be willing to double entry fees to all junior tournaments to do this? Where are high school athletic associations going to come up with the extra dollars to afford this? Are there enough certified officials around to support this, because many places are short on officials, and getting people who are both interested and well-suited to do it isn't easy...
 
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