College tennis, will American men always get shafted?

I would like to change the countries just to give this analogy.

A. Let’s say Spain has an excellent university system, so Spanish kids plan on working hard to go to one of those schools.

B. Spanish universities have very good tax payer funded programs and facilities, and decide that spanish kids who meet the academic thresholds, and are adept at a sport, will have a scholarship.

C. Spain then says men will get half the number of scholarships as women, even though they play at a higher level.

D. Spain then says they want the best from the entire world, and will give foreign players something valued at $200,000 , which means the rosters are Germans, Americans, Russians etc. with a couple Spanish players mixed in.

But if a Spanish kid wants to go to university just outside of his city, he pays triple the price because his family did not pay taxes in that city. No other nations offer sports scholarships either, so the Spanish kids have nowhere to pay.

Does this seem right? Should that be changed? Could it be changed?
 
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socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Does this seem right?
Sounds great. Now the Spanish kids have to come to US universities! LOL.

Good for American kids to go learn how to play clay court tennis in Spain and develop footwork and a BH that can stand up to high bounces. Maybe we will have some Slam-winning pros then. US kids developing their game only on US hard courts is a competitive disadvantage as the game has become more athletic and baseline oriented. If we remove competition from foreign-born college players, it will likely be even worse in terms of impact on the best American players.
 
Sounds great. Now the Spanish kids have to come to US universities! LOL.

Good for American kids to go learn how to play clay court tennis in Spain and develop footwork and a BH that can stand up to high bounces. Maybe we will have some Slam-winning pros then. US kids developing their game only on US hard courts is a competitive disadvantage as the game has become more athletic and baseline oriented. If we remove competition from foreign-born college players, it will likely be even worse in terms of impact on the best American players.
This analogy assumes no other countries give out sports scholarships. Only Spain. So Spanish kids can’t come here.

Personally when thinking of American tennis , especially in relation to this thread, I’m
Not concerned about creating the next American Djokovic or Federer.
 
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socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Personally when thinking of American tennis , especially in relation to this thread, I’m
Not concerned about creating the next American Djokovic or Federer.
I guess you are thinking of the age old Globalization vs Protectionism argument.
 
I’m sure there are always winners and losers in protectionism vs globalization. Advantages and disadvantages. Depends on who you are.

Obviously my son is my priority. Not someone else’s son who is a former pro from Slovakia who wants to continue training, but doesn’t have the opportunity to at home.

None of these players are going to be the next Federer anyway. If there are 5000 d1 players, you probably will never hear of 4,999 of them. So to make it “world class” really doesn’t matter considering 99 percent of these guys are trying to get a job and education.

After reading some studies it really doesn’t even benefit the foreign players in many cases. Homesick. Language difficulties. Poor performance.
 

atatu

Legend
I mean no one is forcing these colleges to take foreign players, they are doing it because they want to win. All the college tennis coaches could agree to limit the number of foreigners on their teams but that won't happen. The flip side of that is that all the best American players would go to Stanford like it was in the 80's which creates an imbalance.
 
In what way do you think American men are getting shafted now? I’m not sure I understand the gripe? I played college tennis, I’ve worked around and with a lot of college tennis players. I have never thought to myself “there are so many Americans who are so much better than this who simply aren’t getting a shot.”
 

In what way do you think American men are getting shafted now? I’m not sure I understand the gripe? I played college tennis, I’ve worked around and with a lot of college tennis players. I have never thought to myself “there are so many Americans who are so much better than this who simply aren’t getting a shot.”
Because they get 4.5 scholarships to women who get 9. Because they must compete against the entire world to get a spot. Even many professional sports leagues around the world have quotas on foreign players to develop home grown talent. The point of college is to get an education. It isn’t even a professional league.

If I am in Georgia and my son wants to go to the university of South Carolina (just attend, no sport played), well out of state tuition kicks in. I did not pay taxes in South Carolina.

If my son wants to just attend UGA, and if he attends a rigorous high school, well he must have a near perfect SAT score , GPA, extra curriculars etc.

So the foreign tennis player from Romania who can barely speak English would meet those requirements?

I really do t think the intent of college athletic scholarships is to bring over kids who barely speak English to win a game , but it has morphed into that.

Have a quota. 1 per team.
 

WYK

Hall of Fame
Not only are your college kids competing against US kids, but they have to compete against many other countries, many that will fund their kids going to your school.

According to the NCAA: More than 25,000 international student-athletes across all three divisions participate in NCAA sports.

Now there are over 1,100 universities, so there would be spots, of course. But that is still a big number.
 
What I see happening often is that American kids who might be around a 10 utr face a cross roads.

Make a costly and time consuming financial push on their parents dime to beat out foreign players. Or concentrate more heavily on an enormous educational work load just to even attend college. Or try to do both at once, just so non speaking state funded Romanian kid can get a full ride. So most American kids drop out of tennis at that point.

It’s an unfair playing field competing with state subsidized players from other nations who do not have to make those choices.
 

WYK

Hall of Fame
What I see happening often is that American kids who might be around a 10 utr face a cross roads.

Make a costly and time consuming financial push on their parents dime to beat out foreign players. Or concentrate more heavily on an enormous educational work load just to even attend college. Or try to do both at once, just so non speaking state funded Romanian kid can get a full ride. So most American kids drop out of tennis at that point.

It’s an unfair playing field competing with state subsidized players from other nations who do not have to make those choices.

Well, all we have to do is increase taxes and spend more money on our own citizens and infrastructure. Simple?
(good luck)
 
Well, all we have to do is increase taxes and spend more money on our own citizens and infrastructure. Simple?
(good luck)
lol. Well probably don’t even need the tax increase. But spending on our own citizens seems to be going out of style. If I ran the border and ended up in NYC I would be getting debit cards with $1000 per month for food

Maybe American kids should just quit tennis altogether, and spend those hundreds of millions elsewhere besides coaches, clinics, programs, rackets etc. what little benefit they might get down the line would be given to a foreigner. Let the foreigners get the free educations and just focus on other things. Why have junior tennis at all of not a realistic pathway to college?

I wonder how high school football parents would feel if college rosters were 70 percent foreigners.
 

WYK

Hall of Fame
lol. Well probably don’t even need the tax increase. But spending on our own citizens seems to be going out of style. If I ran the border and ended up in NYC I would be getting debit cards with $1000 per month for food

Well...


Click on 'North America' on the right, then click on 'Europe'. There's a bit of a difference in taxation.

You can't invest what you don't have. We can not compete with countries that have more to invest in their citizens.
Back before the 'techno socialism' really started to kick in, the US had the advantage of coming out of WWII the clear winner and everyone repaying the US, and the US forcing their products into their markets, or outright controlling the markets.
Add in the fact the US spends more on defense and the European countries count on this, and spend half as much of their GDP themselves. Thank you, US.
Now with technology and time evening the playing fields and the EU and EU Common economy in full effect, they simply out invest us when it comes to their citizens.
I am not sure there is a chance to compete. The only way we can is pure numbers, but even then the EU is 440 mil altogether now.
 
Well...


Click on 'North America' on the right, then click on 'Europe'. There's a bit of a difference in taxation.

You can't invest what you don't have. We can not compete with countries that have more to invest in their citizens.
Back before the 'techno socialism' really started to kick in, the US had the advantage of coming out of WWII the clear winner and everyone repaying the US, and the US forcing their products into their markets, or outright controlling the markets.
Add in the fact the US spends more on defense and the European countries count on this, and spend half as much of their GDP themselves. Thank you, US.
Now with technology and time evening the playing fields and the EU and EU Common economy in full effect, they simply out invest us when it comes to their citizens.
I am not sure there is a chance to compete. The only way we can is pure numbers, but even then the EU is 440 mil altogether now.
Of course. European nations aren’t spending 3 trillion to have a war in Afghanistan. How we allocate taxes is far different.

In regards to tennis I guess they have nothing once the kids are 18? I really don’t know. Only thing that makes sense is send them to the USA for free training and education?

Maybe if we ended that foreign nations might spend more of their own tax money on their own players once 18 ? Seems to be an odd model. Develop players so the USA can then take over.
 

WYK

Hall of Fame
Of course. European nations aren’t spending 3 trillion to have a war in Afghanistan. How we allocate taxes is far different.

In regards to tennis I guess they have nothing once the kids are 18? I really don’t know. Only thing that makes sense is send them to the USA for free training and education?

Like the NCAA said, 25K kids in all from all foreign sources. Europe has millions of kids. So they are not sending many at all. Only a few that are curious go over. After all, America still has it's allure, and ITF tournaments are cheaper and easier to attend than having to chase after low level competitions stateside.
Because, well, all those taxes also go into transportation as well...
And most US colleges have free health care. I know mine did - otherwise I would be bankrupt before I graduated!
 
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What I would be curious about are how many 12 utr tennis players are in the world at around 18 years old, and what they generally end up doing. I am guessing in the USA there might be about 100.
 
Also only 255 D1 programs offer men’s tennis. Compared to 317 for women.so 2536 for women. 1148 for men. Strange how it has to be equal amongst genders due to football, but those ideas don’t transfer to foreign vs american.

I think we can all agree male tennis players are better? Yet we don’t say we should take female scholarships away because of that fact. We actually given them 2.5 times more money to play college tennis. We say it needs to be “fair” to women to give the same amount of scholarships across all sports. Then “fairness” seems to be an issue? Not just who is better?

Football players get about 25,000 scholarships.

Do we think we would have more or less kids playing football if that number went down to 5 per state? Would more kids be becoming better football players if there was little chance to playing in college?
 
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WYK

Hall of Fame
Also only 255 D1 programs offer men’s tennis. Compared to 317 for women.so 2536 for women. 1148 for men. Strange how it has to be equal amongst genders due to football, but those ideas don’t transfer to foreign vs american.

I think we can all agree male tennis players are better? Yet we don’t say we should take female scholarships away because of that fact. We actually given them 2.5 times more money to play college tennis. We say it needs to be “fair” to women to give the same amount of scholarships across all sports. Then “fairness” seems to be an issue? Not just who is better?

Football players get about 25,000 scholarships.

Do we think we would have more or less kids playing football if that number went down to 5 per state? Would more kids be becoming better football players if there was little chance to playing in college?

In fairness, the university I attended informed me we were in the last few years of tennis. When the program came back, it was women only due to the low demand. Most men came to my college for engineering.

Also, as for 18 year olds, one thing we do not realise as Americans is most 'high schools' in Europe are out by 16. They have an advantage in entering trade/vocational schools or university at 16-17.
And...most do not pay for it(aside from their parent's taxes, of course).
 
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Well, in fairness, the university I attended informed me we were in the last few years of tennis. When the program came back, it was women only due to the low demand. Most men came to my college for engineering.

Also, as for 18 year olds, one thing we do not realise as Americans is most 'high schools' in Europe are out by 16. They have an advantage in entering trade/vocational schools or university at 16-17.
And...most do not pay for it(aside from their parent's taxes, of course).
Exactly. That was my point. An American high school kid has the added burden of 2 more years of rigorous schooling, (at an age when they can improve the most) on top of tennis training.
 
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mikej

Hall of Fame
Welcome to life - do you think post-college your kid is only going to be competing against Americans in whatever profession he enters? Yep college tennis is global now for better or worse (for better for those who enjoy watching it like me), and it’s not going back
 
Welcome to life - do you think post-college your kid is only going to be competing against Americans in whatever profession he enters? Yep college tennis is global now for better or worse (for better for those who enjoy watching it like me), and it’s not going back
I think it definitely will change, but when depends on how many people speak up

Title 9 changed things. Supreme Court just struck down affirmative action in admissions. This can be changed as well.

I would prefer watching Americans play over some kids rented from around the world.

It’s too bad their nations don’t invest in these types of programs with an education/ sports mix. Maybe they should? But then again, the citizens of those nations probably would not if their kids would not benefit.
 
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I think it definitely will change, but when depends on how many people speak up

Title 9 changed things. Supreme Court just struck down affirmative action in admissions. This can be changed as well.

I would prefer watching Americans play over some kids rented from around the world.
International players make college tennis better. Go follow football or baseball (which are 99% Americans) if you don't like "rented" kids. It won't change in tennis.

Thanks for stopping by with your opinion.
 
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mikej

Hall of Fame
It’s too bad their nations don’t invest in these types of programs with an education/ sports mix. Maybe they should? But then again, the citizens of those nations probably would not if their kids would not benefit.
Yep, other nations have a healthier balance of sports within their culture, and certainly within their education systems - they would never elevate college athletics the way the US does.
 

Wild Card

New User
Maybe many college coaches in your analogy would love to recruit Spanish kids , but for many kids it’s not just D1 or bust, they’d rather sit on the bench at a Spanish Power Conference than play for a MM.
What do you propose they do to change that mentality?
For many the only option is to fill the roster with Internationals, who in many cases work hard and play harder.
 
Maybe many college coaches in your analogy would love to recruit Spanish kids , but for many kids it’s not just D1 or bust, they’d rather sit on the bench at a Spanish Power Conference than play for a MM.
What do you propose they do to change that mentality?
For many the only option is to fill the roster with Internationals, who in many cases work hard and play harder.
That’s the perception. “The foreigners play hard and work harder”

Sure when you are done with school at 16 you have a bit more time.

Maybe their nations should help them a bit once they are not good enough to play pro and have nothing else to do? Why would you THEN jump ship? Seems like pretty lousy programs if the end goal is to leave your nation and rely on beautiful American facilities , and American generosity.

Sure. Lots of agents in those nations make some cash. Agents here make some cash. That just adds to the problem.

Again, I don’t think many kids would play high school football if 25,000 American kids not given college scholarships. Give out 6 per state and see what happens to high school football.

Let them all come to play and pay out of state tuition costs.
 
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Let me explain it like this.

We have all heard of “enablers”. Or saw them on TV. Like when a kid has a drug problem, mommy takes the kid to buy drugs so he is safe, or she houses her kid, and that allows the cycle to continue.

So maybe, if the USA collegiate system was not around to enable other nations to do nothing with their top players, perhaps a stronger lower tier professional level might exist? Or something similar so these people who devoted 12 years of their life have a place to still play and make a little money?

And then more American kids could play and develop, and get an education, as it is meant to be? Sure the foriegn and local pimps making cash trafficking tennis players to the USA might be upset, but overall something much better might grow out of it.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
A. Let’s say Spain has an excellent university system, so Spanish kids plan on working hard to go to one of those schools.

B. Spanish universities have very good tax payer funded programs and facilities, and decide that spanish kids who meet the academic thresholds, and are adept at a sport, will have a scholarship.

C. Spain then says men will get half the number of scholarships as women, even though they play at a higher level.

D. Spain then says they want the best from the entire world, and will give foreign players something valued at $200,000 , which means the rosters are Germans, Americans, Russians etc. with a couple Spanish players mixed in.

But if a Spanish kid wants to go to university just outside of his city, he pays triple the price because his family did not pay taxes in that city. No other nations offer sports scholarships either, so the Spanish kids have nowhere to pay.

Does this seem right? Should that be changed? Could it be changed?
Let's flip the script in your scenario. You are a "Spanish" kid who fell in love with tennis playing on courts in your neighborhood. You have never traveled to a foreign country. However, you have had the opportunity to be coached by pros from two different continents who are located in your town. These pros sometimes invite players from their home country or continent over the summer to board with them or local families during the summer. You have even gotten to travel with them to a tourney one province away. In addition there are different tiers of universities with tennis teams near your home town. Your local academy actual leases courts from one of the lower tier teams and pays the guys $20/hr to hit with the junior players. Most of these collegians come from countries outside Spain. While the juniors tennis events sponsored by your national federation are an expensive route to achieve a starred ranking to hopefully attract college coaches, you discover there are other junior and adult events that are cheaper and closer to home that also attract some international juniors, collegians, and even young pros. Thus before you set foot on a college campus, you've had an opportunity to play foreigners from outside "Spain" and you are not intimidated when you play dual matches against older and often foreign players. You were a bit of a late bloomer as you attended regular high school, and played on the high school team while still playing some regional federation tourneys and a few nationals late in your junior career. You attracted some interest and offers from the higher tiered tennis universities but you could not afford the high out-of-state tuition with slim athletic aid. Instead you accepted an offer from the next tier down with 80%+ expenses paid between athletic and merit aid. With the savings from attending the lower tennis tiered university, you could afford to play summer tourneys and even beat some of the guys both international and "Spanish" from the higher college tier. Your lower tiered team makes it into the big tourney with the higher tiered teams 3x. You have a great college experience, graduate with high honors and no debt, and still play and coach some tennis on the side while working full time, occasionally even having the opportunity to be a hitting partner with high level pros.

The above is my son's story. While your A-D is mostly true, you can look at the glass half empty or half full. We choose the latter. However when my son was a soph in HS, I actually wrote an anonymous 2000 word article as a guest post for a tennis blog arguing your point. I changed my mind on the issue after my son had opportunity to play with internationals locally, and I was grateful that I didnt have to pay to send my son overseas to play international junior ITFs because he could spend $20 or $40 and play international players less than 35 miles from home at some events, and no we didnt live in Florida or California.

Some corrections to your facts: 1) Athletics is mostly funded by student fees at universities, not directly by taxpayers except in cases where communities and the university build facilities together that are shared by college and the public 2) Many tennis facilities were paid for by donations either from alumni or corporations. A corporation donated the collegiate facility where my son played undergrad. Also the public could pay to use the facility after hours which helped fund the program. 3) Guess what- not that many male internationals are getting full rides in tennis esp in the lower tiered levels of tennis. If there are 4.5 scholarships and 10-12 on the roster, do the math. If a lot of players are getting full rides or close to it, they are getting a good piece of academic/merit $ too. In fact post pandemic, athletic scholarships have been cut. 4.5 scholarships are the # for fully funded programs which is most of Power 5 D1, but midmajor D1, D2, NAIA may have 2 or even less scholarships to share among10 players. The school my son played at undergrad probably had 4-4.5 scholarships and ran a lean roster of 8-9 players with a good mix of internationals and Americans. Post pandemic with less athletic scholarship $$, the roster is 10 Americans plus two foreign players.

You are absolutely right about the out-of-state tuition. My son was recruited for lower line positions for power 5 schools, but after his 1st P5 offer, we realized it would cost us $100k more to play P5. He canceled the rest of his P5 official visits, chose the MM he liked best, and enjoyed the experience still playing vs several P5s a year. If he had accepted a P5 offer and ended up sitting on bench, he would have played less duals vs P5s than he did at the MM. He has met so many interesting people-players, parents, and coaches from playing tennis. He has no regrets. After he was recruited fall of his HS senior year, he had a great senior year and was even a seed at Kzoo, but coaches look at where you are at your junior year or early senior year. However, transfers are a lot easier than they used to be for late bloomers who want to change schools after their freshman year. My son didnt transfer until his 5th year for grad school.

Focus on the glass half full. Field of dreams-we built it, they came. You can complain or you can find those opportunities for your son to play or practice with internationals as a junior before college. For most of the mainland US, there is probably a men's tennis team within one of the divisions within an hour's drive-offer to pay a player to hit with your son. Skip the USTA and find the cheaper tourneys. No matter your budget, if your son has talent mental toughness, and a good work ethic, he can find opportunities that will challenge him and improve his game before college. Coaches that recognize those traits will work with you-maybe they usually only take homeschoolers, but make exceptions for the kids who work and play hard.

Whether as a club, walk on or a recruited player in any division, sports develops discipline, mental toughness, and confidence. Many businesses will prefer to hire athletes for those reason and for their ability to work as a team. I encourage you to find a team for your son that is an academic, economic, and tennis fit. We know players who have had great experiences in all the divisions. Club tennis is a great option too if your son can get into and attend the flagship university in your state.

The recruiting journey can be frustrating but the college experience afterwards is worth it for most players. The system is changing slightly as athletic scholarships are being cut at midmajors, D2, NAIA providing some more opportunities for Americans. Do realize that taxes are higher for families in Europe, and college is cheaper there-free in some countries to residents, and definitely lower on average than in US. Even if foreign players are paying less than US players, their families may be sacrificing for them to come play.

If we dumbed down tennis with only American players, would the victories mean as much? Are we unconsciously instilling in US players, that they aren't as good? That would be a mistake. We need to teach them to be ferocious, fearless players, and we need to expose them to international styles of play before college so they can be confident. It is exciting to see players like Shelton drop inside the top 30 within a year of college. Would Shelton have been as ready for the pro tour if he hadnt had tough international opponents playing ITA duals?
 
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jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
Because they get 4.5 scholarships to women who get 9. Because they must compete against the entire world to get a spot. Even many professional sports leagues around the world have quotas on foreign players to develop home grown talent. The point of college is to get an education. It isn’t even a professional league.

If I am in Georgia and my son wants to go to the university of South Carolina (just attend, no sport played), well out of state tuition kicks in. I did not pay taxes in South Carolina.

If my son wants to just attend UGA, and if he attends a rigorous high school, well he must have a near perfect SAT score , GPA, extra curriculars etc.

So the foreign tennis player from Romania who can barely speak English would meet those requirements?

I really do t think the intent of college athletic scholarships is to bring over kids who barely speak English to win a game , but it has morphed into that.

Have a quota. 1 per team.
Most of the Western European players probably already speak 3 languages-one of which is English. The academic rigor in many countries in Europe and Asia is much stronger than in US. They have to take cumulative exams to get in college while in US, finals for each course for one semester is usually just 20%. A US student taking mostly all APs or international baccalaureate program may match rigor of Europe. The tennis teams with 60-67% international players have the top GPA in the athletic dept-that is for D1. Now for NAIA or D2 there may be lower academic standards.
 
Yeah there’s a lot going on here.

For starters - I’ve never met a single foreign college tennis player who struggled to speak the language as you’ve intimated several times here. those guys are almost always incredibly impressive, well spoken, and fluent in at least two if not more languages. We had a kid from Japan on my team in college and he was articulate and thoughtful and clever and witty and had obviously mastered English. The Russians, the Israelis, the Spaniards, the Italians that I knew - same deal. The idea that these guys are academically inept and getting waved through on athletic ability is certainly true in some cases but it is the exception and not the rule.

Title IX leading to the death of a bunch of men’s programs is a shame and I wish that they’d find a better way forward. We can agree there.

But the beauty of the system is that if your kid or anyone’s kid is good enough - they’ll be found and they’ll get opportunities. If you’re winning matches, you’ll get looks. If you’re not, you’ll still probably find a place to play tennis and get an education at a good price, because this country has more opportunities for that than any other nation on the planet. If you are good enough as a player, someone will find you.
 

Erik2349

New User
Thanks for the responses and many good points.

My son’s previous academy has a former D1 coach as the director. He is South American.

Currently he runs the academy and earns extra income recruiting South American players. For D1 and D2.

For some reason it never felt right as he is making $$$$ training our kids for college tennis, but also making $$$$ doing his best to give those spots away to his countrymen.


I start to see many Americans trying to compete by parents holding their kids back before the 8th grade. Something I don’t agree with.

Is the level of tennis higher with foreigners? Most likely, but in an easier way. Many kids drop out of training by 15 if they are not exactly on the path to be an 11 utr by 16-17. Could they be a 13 utr by 20? For sure, many of them could.

Which is sad because they love the game, but just to get into a Georgia tech type school takes a lot of time with school work, and something has to give.

The foreign kid coming over here isn’t going to go pro, and he isn’t good enough. By reading some of their stories it just sounds like “well, we don’t have opportunities at home, so might as well get a free education and work on our game”.

Yeah that sounds great for them, but isn’t that the same for our kids here? Not good enough to go pro, so might as well get an education and stay busy with tennis.

We should give 70 percent of spots to foreigners because there is one Shelton? He could be in the same spot without college.


It just seems like if baseball only
Gave out a handful of scholarships per state, how many would continue to try as hard if 70 percent of that low number were given to foreigners? You go watch a college baseball game and it is all Cuban and dominican? And we say that is good and makes it more enjoyable to watch? American baseball would die, and I truly doubt Americans would be so excited to watch because Pedro or Juan pitches a little faster. Pedro and Juan aren’t good enough for the big leagues, and won’t be, but slightly better than Americans.
 
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andfor

Legend
Pretty sure 99% of the parents who complain on this subject are college educated, and likely degreed from a big name school. As I've pointed out many times over the years on these discussions, most American tennis kids, the good ones, are focused on going to the big state schools or high profile private universities. When their tennis level does not get high enough to compete at their dream school, the knives come out against the internationals playing college tennis.

The point I've always made is there as so many mid-major, D2, D3 and NAIA schools just begging for UTR's 8-10+ to play for them. Rollins, Flagler, Hillsdale, Loyola New Orleans, Sewanee, Emory, Point Loma Nazarene, Redlands, Holy Cross, IN to name a few and I could name about 25 more. But when the college name snob sees these very good schools ("they've never heard of") they scoff and go back to complaining. All the while hiding the fact they are mad their kid can't make a D1 roster that happens to be a top 75 program.
 
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Maybe is a problem for people that would became professional player but for a lot of people is a great opportunity, I’ m Italian and here is very difficult play tennis a good level and go to university.Often I play only 2/3 times at week.
 
Pretty sure 99% of the parents who complain on this subject are college educated, and likely degreed from a big name school. As I've pointed out many times over the years on these discussions, most American tennis kids, the good ones, are focused on going to the big state schools or high profile private universities. When their tennis level does not get high enough to compete at their dream school, the knives come out against the internationals playing college tennis.

The point I've always made is there as so many mid-major, D2, D3 and NAIA schools just begging for UTR's 8-10+ to play for them. Rollins, Flagler, Hillsdale, Loyola New Orleans, Sewanee, Emory, Point Loma Nazarene, Redlands, Holy Cross, IN to name a few and I could name about 25 more. But when the college name snob sees these very good schools ("they've never heard of") they scoff and go back to complaining. All the while hiding the fact they are mad their kid can't make a D1 roster that happens to be a top 75 program.
That’s not even my case. It doesn’t even have to be d1. I was under the impression just from what I see in my own state that all of the d2 guys are foreigners also. D3 is pretty low quality from when I went to see MIT play. Not sure what an 11 utr would get you
 

andfor

Legend
That’s not even my case. It doesn’t even have to be d1. I was under the impression just from what I see in my own state that all of the d2 guys are foreigners also. D3 is pretty low quality from when I went to see MIT play. Not sure what an 11 utr would get you
Opportunities are obviously going to vary from state to state, and may also depend on if the roster has seniors getting ready to graduate, how many schools in your area have tennis teams, what divisions they play in, etc. Depending on where you are out of state may or may not be the best option. If the player wants to play college tennis it's not uncommon for the athlete to have to initiate contact with schools. Have the player email coaches they are interested in, athletes can call the coach, request a visit. Pretty sure many of the internationals are doing this, if not on their own, using an agency or both. You might be surprised at the coaches responses.

Going to have to compete. It's hard out there, everywhere, every profession. Nothing is given. Expand the horizons, there's a fit out there. Good luck!
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Welcome to life - do you think post-college your kid is only going to be competing against Americans in whatever profession he enters? Yep college tennis is global now for better or worse (for better for those who enjoy watching it like me), and it’s not going back
Here is my take on this. If Boston College, Wake Forest, Stanford, or any universities that do not receive federal or state funding (i.e. taxpayers money), those schools could recruit any foreign players and that would be fine by me. Back in 2018, WF won the NCAA men's tennis championship with 100% foreign players on the roster. Again, that is OK because WF is a private university and I assume it receives neither federal nor state funding.

I have a problem with UVA, UF, VATech or any public universities that receive federal and/or state funding and at the same time actively recruiting foreign players, thus taking spots away from American students. As a Virginia commonwealth resident-tax paying citizen, you damn right, I do have a big problem with that because my taxes is being used to subsidize these foreign student athletes while students from the state of Virginia can't attend UVA.

I think that's what the original poster wanted to convey, right?
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Pretty sure 99% of the parents who complain on this subject are college educated, and likely degreed from a big name school. As I've pointed out many times over the years on these discussions, most American tennis kids, the good ones, are focused on going to the big state schools or high profile private universities. When their tennis level does not get high enough to compete at their dream school, the knives come out against the internationals playing college tennis.

The point I've always made is there as so many mid-major, D2, D3 and NAIA schools just begging for UTR's 8-10+ to play for them. Rollins, Flagler, Hillsdale, Loyola New Orleans, Sewanee, Emory, Point Loma Nazarene, Redlands, Holy Cross, IN to name a few and I could name about 25 more. But when the college name snob sees these very good schools ("they've never heard of") they scoff and go back to complaining. All the while hiding the fact they are mad their kid can't make a D1 roster that happens to be a top 75 program.
Why would a Virginia resident, if given a choice, choose Sewanee (80K/year) over University of Virginia (35K/year)? UVA is a much better school overall, especially in business and STEM. I am sure Sewanee is also a good school, but it is NOT on the same level as UVA in academic and cost.

As I've said before, I don't care what private universities do in recruiting foreign tennis players if they do not receive taxpayers funding. UVA is a public university, and it does receive public funding, so that practice should be illegal.
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Some corrections to your facts: 1) Athletics is mostly funded by student fees at universities, not directly by taxpayers except in cases where communities and the university build facilities together that are shared by college and the public
All athletic facilities at UVA involves public funding from the Virginia legislature in one form or another. In other words, VA taxpayers are subsidizing these foreign players. Every time a slot is being given to a foreigner, it takes away a slot from VA resident. Now, if those foreigners are willing to pay international student rate, then I'll be ok with that.
 
Why would a Virginia resident, if given a choice, choose Sewanee (80K/year) over University of Virginia (35K/year)? UVA is a much better school overall, especially in business and STEM. I am sure Sewanee is also a good school, but it is NOT on the same level as UVA in academic and cost.

As I've said before, I don't care what private universities do in recruiting foreign tennis players if they do not receive taxpayers funding. UVA is a public university, and it does receive public funding, so that practice should be illegal.
Are you aware that state universities have plenty of international students within their student bodies? And a lot of them receive scholarships.
 
Here is my take on this. If Boston College, Wake Forest, Stanford, or any universities that do not receive federal or state funding (i.e. taxpayers money), those schools could recruit any foreign players and that would be fine by me. Back in 2018, WF won the NCAA men's tennis championship with 100% foreign players on the roster. Again, that is OK because WF is a private university and I assume it receives neither federal nor state funding.

I have a problem with UVA, UF, VATech or any public universities that receive federal and/or state funding and at the same time actively recruiting foreign players, thus taking spots away from American students. As a Virginia commonwealth resident-tax paying citizen, you damn right, I do have a big problem with that because my taxes is being used to subsidize these foreign student athletes while students from the state of Virginia can't attend UVA.

I think that's what the original poster wanted to convey, right?
For me it isn’t just about “taxes” If you go deep enough all the universities rely on tax dollars somehow. But people have different views. Some want open borders. Some want a wall etc.

Tennis already only has a few spots. Men’s tennis even fewer. I’m sure wrestling programs might be able to fill all the programs with guys from Dagestan and Bulgaria. Not sure why that would be good. Would be silly to even offer a wrestling program.
 
at the end of the day, Americans are pretty weak. Just overall. Only they would pay huge amounts for property tax and still put kids in private schools, spend tons of money on tennis training then be happy to spend more for college! And sort of say “awww. This diversity is so
Awesome! I saw a kid from Bolivia play third single! ”. While foreign kids laugh.
 

gino

Legend
I would like to change the countries just to give this analogy.

A. Let’s say Spain has an excellent university system, so Spanish kids plan on working hard to go to one of those schools.

B. Spanish universities have very good tax payer funded programs and facilities, and decide that spanish kids who meet the academic thresholds, and are adept at a sport, will have a scholarship.

C. Spain then says men will get half the number of scholarships as women, even though they play at a higher level.

D. Spain then says they want the best from the entire world, and will give foreign players something valued at $200,000 , which means the rosters are Germans, Americans, Russians etc. with a couple Spanish players mixed in.

But if a Spanish kid wants to go to university just outside of his city, he pays triple the price because his family did not pay taxes in that city. No other nations offer sports scholarships either, so the Spanish kids have nowhere to pay.

Does this seem right? Should that be changed? Could it be changed?

I was told a lot as a junior I had d1 talent if it was 10 years prior. The injection of foreign talent is a problem for college tennis, despite the push back youre getting

Even lower divisions are feeling the impact. I played at a top 30 ranked D3 school (Chapman) & in my tenure I played with players from Egypt, Brazil, Denmark, and Japan - all on scholarships

That being said, it's on americans to get ITF rankings & look better on paper than all of the foreign kids who are playing ITFs and developing consistency on clay
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Are you aware that state universities have plenty of international students within their student bodies? And a lot of them receive scholarships.
Plenty of international students at UVA, yes I am aware. UVA is actively recruiting them so that they 53K/yr in tuition vs. 15k/yr for in-state students. I have no issues with that.

Most international students do NOT receive scholarships, that's the fact, unless they can split the atom.
 
I was told a lot as a junior I had d1 talent if it was 10 years prior. The injection of foreign talent is a problem for college tennis, despite the push back youre getting

Even lower divisions are feeling the impact. I played at a top 30 ranked D3 school (Chapman) & in my tenure I played with players from Egypt, Brazil, Denmark, and Japan - all on scholarships

That being said, it's on americans to get ITF rankings & look better on paper than all of the foreign kids who are playing ITFs and developing consistency on clay
Exactly. There is a tiny little college by me and the entire team is foreigners.

The reality is that tennis is an international sport, and it’s hard to be amongst the best in the entire world just to play in college. All by 16 years old, more or less.

Even professional sports leagues have quotas in different nations. They would never allow this to happen to their kids, in their nations.

Nobody who likes college wrestling is saying “I would watch, and my kid wrestles, but it would be great if we could bring in the best from around the world to fill every roster! How can we only give scholarships to more kids from Dagestan? That would be so great! We need more diversity!
 
at the end of the day, Americans are pretty weak. Just overall. Only they would pay huge amounts for property tax and still put kids in private schools, spend tons of money on tennis training then be happy to spend more for college! And sort of say “awww. This diversity is so
Awesome! I saw a kid from Bolivia play third single! ”. While foreign kids laugh.

Tell your UTR 10 son to get better if you think he should be entitled to a scholarship at his dream state school. Surely he should be better than someone from a poor nation like Bolivia. And you strike me as the type who has made "merit based" arguments before on other subjects. Make that apply here.
 
Tell your UTR 10 son to get better if you think he should be entitled to a scholarship at his dream state school. Surely he should be better than someone from a poor nation like Bolivia. And you strike me as the type who has made "merit based" arguments before on other subjects. Make that apply here.
You are missing the point. I guess pimps can always traffic some rented players, but that’s not the point of the collegiate sports system. Let those nations come up with their own system. You really think anyone would play high school football, or watch college football if it were a bunch of foreigners? That’s part of the problem.

Tell the foreign kid to get better and go play in Wimbledon. He is not needed here.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
I was told a lot as a junior I had d1 talent if it was 10 years prior. The injection of foreign talent is a problem for college tennis, despite the push back youre getting

Even lower divisions are feeling the impact. I played at a top 30 ranked D3 school (Chapman) & in my tenure I played with players from Egypt, Brazil, Denmark, and Japan - all on scholarships

That being said, it's on americans to get ITF rankings & look better on paper than all of the foreign kids who are playing ITFs and developing consistency on clay
If you played D3, then your teammates were on merit/academic scholarships not athletic-correct?
 
If you played D3, then your teammates were on merit/academic scholarships not athletic-correct?
Traffickers find a way around that. They give the merit based scholarships to athletes and say it is a leadership scholarship.

First, they stand out, meaning they are more likely to get preferred consideration for merit-based rewards.

Second, many Division 3 schools already offer substantial financial aid packages and offer preferred acceptance to athletes. After all, just because there aren’t scholarships doesn’t mean that these programs are not incredibly competitive, and coaches (and admissions officers) are pragmatic: They know that successful sports teams are a great way to build rapport with alumni.
 

mikej

Hall of Fame
You are missing the point. I guess pimps can always traffic some rented players, but that’s not the point of the collegiate sports system.
The following isn’t a rhetorical question:

What would you say is the point of the US collegiate sports system?

In the era of NIL, I’d say it has a lot more to do with money and pimps than the idealistic view you seem to have of it as ‘providing recreational opportunities for middling American athletes’ or something of that sort
 
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