College Women's coach asked me a hybrid question

graycrait

Hall of Fame
#1
Small D1 womens coach suggested that she wanted to shift some of her players from full poly to a Tour Bite x Vanquish (multi) hybrid. She knows I have been stringing one of her player's strings on the side with a whacky hybrid that player likes. I asked coach why trying the switch? She said Tour Bite plays too stiff for some players. All these players string their own rackets, some are better stringers than others. All these gals smack the ball pretty hard, most with good spin, so I am wondering if TB x Vanquish would be the best combo. It was match time so we couldn't talk any longer.

Suggestions on other options, hybrids or how best to string TBxVanquish - gauges, tensions?
 
#2
i would try lowering the tension instead (by 4 to 5lbs or differential tension change),,
college players ive come across, string their strings too tight, and its due to simplicity
they need control and durability (what they get from the FB of poly), the vanquish is a multi that will break quickly on them
the more frustrating part of going FB to hybrid is the change in "launch angle", not everyone will appreciate this modification to their swing
on my rackets ive been stringing 49/46lbs (due to 16/20 pattern), on a 16/19 pattern, i just drop 2lbs on the cross (exam.. 50/48 lbs)

anyway 4-5lbs change is noticeable for anyone
 
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#3
Issue I would see is that if they are producing a serious amount of power, lowering tension too much will impact the behavior too much. I did, and had a serious side effect on my play style.
In my opinion, I would do a one 1 on 1 with each player and not group them all into a single bucket. Do speed measurements and accuracy checks with feedback using different tensions, starting with maximum and going down. Do you know if any of these girls have done any customizing setups like adding SW or TW to their racquets?
I would try different Poly, and try different thicknesses instead of going to a gut hybrid which will be a headache with weather, tension and durability.
 
#4
1HBHfanatic's right. Vanquish crosses will lock up pretty quickly, which will negate the spin and control potential. If they are using 17 Ga TB, they could try using 16 Ga TB at the same tension. If they are currently on 16 Ga, then drop the tension in increments of 2,4,6#. Once they settle on ref tension, if they want more spin, then they need to start using tension differentials, e.g. mains +2 #, crosses -2#.

They could optionally use Outlast as a cross instead of TB. [I am assuming that the school has a deal with Solinco.]
 
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graycrait

Hall of Fame
#5
Thank you for your suggestions. We are in the "hinterlands" of tennis but have a typical small D1 composed of mostly foreign players. As a well rumpled retired US military traverler these kids give me both a feeling for lost connections to a wider world and hope. I like tennis but it is a little thing.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
#6
Small D1 womens coach suggested that she wanted to shift some of her players from full poly to a Tour Bite x Vanquish (multi) hybrid. She knows I have been stringing one of her player's strings on the side with a whacky hybrid that player likes. I asked coach why trying the switch? She said Tour Bite plays too stiff for some players. All these players string their own rackets, some are better stringers than others. All these gals smack the ball pretty hard, most with good spin, so I am wondering if TB x Vanquish would be the best combo. It was match time so we couldn't talk any longer.

Suggestions on other options, hybrids or how best to string TBxVanquish - gauges, tensions?
what about tourbite soft ? it is softer version of tourbite. and Hyper G is softer too
 

graycrait

Hall of Fame
#7
what about tourbite soft ?
I would like nothing more that this small school to consider more about strings but time, money and resources are in short supply. I personally think Hyper G would be a good alternative, as well as "Soft" but the whole string thing and my thoughts are completely ancillary to their day to day operations. It took about all I had to get them to consider Solinco products rather than stay married to Technifibre 4G. Their best player is a wonderful young guy who if he had more push would be a legit UTR 14 but he languishes at around 13+ due to lack of day to day competition. Their #1 female has been conference champ a couple of years. When academic sports awards are announced you would think there were no other athletes other than tennis players.
 
#8
I've had excellent results with stringing my cross tension 30% lower than my mains. Playing with UltraCable right now at 52/36 and it's very comfortable. It's a smidge softer than I think I will end up at though. I am probably going to try 25% lower next time. 52/39.
 
#10
Suggestions on other options, hybrids or how best to string TBxVanquish - gauges, tensions?
I recently experimented with hybrids combinations on my new frames. I tried around a dozen of different setups. What I have learned so far is that multyfilaments don't work for me in a hybrid. I tried them both ways in the mains or crosses (Mantis Comfort). I liked nylon strings in the mains more.
Selecting the best syn gut is more important than finding a poly to put in the crosses. Mains make 90% of a difference.
Prestretch (!!!) syn gut before putting it into a hybrid.
Prince Original stands out in a big way. The other syn guts I tried Ashaway, Babolat, Technifibre, Gamma, Gosen.
For some reason Price slides almost like a poly and holds for a good 6 hours of hitting (17 g). Technifibre for example broke in less than 30 min. Others in less than 4 h.
I tried Cyclone and TB ( both 1.1 ) in the crosses. TB is better, but again it amounts to 10% of overall performance.
In a practice I hit like this
 

liftordie

Hall of Fame
#11
I've had excellent results with stringing my cross tension 30% lower than my mains. Playing with UltraCable right now at 52/36 and it's very comfortable. It's a smidge softer than I think I will end up at though. I am probably going to try 25% lower next time. 52/39.
Why so much differential? Why not just stringing UC at 42/38?
 

graycrait

Hall of Fame
#12
They tried thinner gauges and thought the breakage rate is too high. What they really need is a full time stringer/who does something else but they don't have the budget. If it were me I would just string some Tour Bite mains at 52 or so and PSGD at 54/55 like I do this hard hitting competitive junior girl's racket. From what I am seeing Vanquish (or any multi) might not be the answer while a syn gut might. I already string one of the women player's rackets but she likes Ashaway Kevlar x Zyex and is 3-0 in both doubles and singles since I started stringing those rackets.
 
#13
Why so much differential? Why not just stringing UC at 42/38?
The idea is to try and get the final strung tensions of the mains and the crosses to be more even. Mains typically end up 20-30% higher tension than the crosses when strung at the same tension according to those that have tested and measured this. I don't really have a good way to measure it myself, but I understand the reasoning behind it and it makes sense to me.

So I thought I would just try it and see whether I liked it or not and go from there. It seems to me that stringing this way gives the mains more freedom to move and snap back, enhancing spin, and the lower crosses feels softer and enhances the pocketing and enlarges the sweet spot.

So for me I think I am getting better feel, comfort, spin, and power. The power has been a little much at times which is why I'm creeping higher on the tensions while maintaining a large differential. I'll probably end up with a less extreme differential, but I haven't had enough stringings yet to know where I like it best. So far the results have been good enough that I don't plan on restringing either of my attempts until the strings break, assuming the Ultra Cable will hold playability that long.
 
#15
The idea is to try and get the final strung tensions of the mains and the crosses to be more even. Mains typically end up 20-30% higher tension than the crosses when strung at the same tension according to those that have tested and measured this. I don't really have a good way to measure it myself, but I understand the reasoning behind it and it makes sense to me.

So I thought I would just try it and see whether I liked it or not and go from there. It seems to me that stringing this way gives the mains more freedom to move and snap back, enhancing spin, and the lower crosses feels softer and enhances the pocketing and enlarges the sweet spot.

So for me I think I am getting better feel, comfort, spin, and power. The power has been a little much at times which is why I'm creeping higher on the tensions while maintaining a large differential. I'll probably end up with a less extreme differential, but I haven't had enough stringings yet to know where I like it best. So far the results have been good enough that I don't plan on restringing either of my attempts until the strings break, assuming the Ultra Cable will hold playability that long.
So you're doing the math in reverse in a way, no?

The logic is "Mains typically end up 20-30% higher tension than the crosses when strung at the same tension" ... So if you use the cross at 36 as a reference like your logic does, you should do 36 x 1.3 = 47?

Right now your math of 52x0.7=36 is in other words .. 52/36 = mains are 44% higher tension than the crosses
 
#16
So you're doing the math in reverse in a way, no?

The logic is "Mains typically end up 20-30% higher tension than the crosses when strung at the same tension" ... So if you use the cross at 36 as a reference like your logic does, you should do 36 x 1.3 = 47?

Right now your math of 52x0.7=36 is in other words .. 52/36 = mains are 44% higher tension than the crosses
My math could be wrong, or my understanding of the way it was described could be wrong, or something else. Part of the problem is there is no good way to actually measure this that I know of. AFAIK the measurements were done with a string meter which is only a proxy for the tension so who can really say what the actual ratio is and how it might vary between different types of string and different frames even. The flex of the frame will play a role as well.

I just remember my takeaway from the anecdotes I read was that the difference was 20-30% and I thought the mains was the reference. So what I did was pick a main tension and do a ratio from it. So 20% less if the mains was 50lbs would be be 40lbs for the cross.

I figure this ratio is going to be very subjective and people will have to experiment on their own to find what they like and some may not like it at all. For me it was pretty good from the start so I'm encouraged to keep fiddling with it and see where I end up.
 
#17
The truth is there is no definite apply to answer. I wish the manufacturers could provide more accurate answers/information about their racquets but I can also understand why they don't.

I do have engineering background and understand in general how the physics behind racquet/string work, for example the tension difference we're talking about, the number of mains and crosses, the length it travels, all come into play on the "ideal" tension differential that would make them "similar"

One thing that really grinds my teeth is when the racquet lists a recommended tension and people come to me to string for them and they tell me I'm so wrong to not string their full bed poly at 65 lb ><
 
#18
HyperG plays softer and depending on the frequency you want to string, I would suggest prostacked rather than vanquish or dropping tension way down in full poly. My girls using full TB or HG are using 17 G or 16L and are at 48lbs. I have a girl using TB17 and Vanquish 17 as a hybrid in an ezone 98. She goes through a racket a day. Even if the strings don't pop they're really locked up from the multi wrap wearing. With prostacked it wont happen, it'll just pop.
 
#19
Tossing a thought out if you have a CP stringer. If the stringer does not move the cross strings up/down when it is being pulled, the interstring friction with the mains will PREVENT the crosses from getting to ref tension. I use this process step. [1] Pull ref tension [2] move cross up/down several times [3] remove clamp while string is still being pulled [4] move string up/down [5] clamp. I don't care if this adds several seconds per string to the stringing time.
 
#20
i would try lowering the tension instead (by 4 to 5lbs or differential tension change),,
college players ive come across, string their strings too tight, and its due to simplicity
they need control and durability (what they get from the FB of poly), the vanquish is a multi that will break quickly on them
the more frustrating part of going FB to hybrid is the change in "launch angle", not everyone will appreciate this modification to their swing
on my rackets ive been stringing 49/46lbs (due to 16/20 pattern), on a 16/19 pattern, i just drop 2lbs on the cross (exam.. 50/48 lbs)

anyway 4-5lbs change is noticeable for anyone

i went from hybrid set up to co poly.. my hybrid set up was (59/56) now.. my copoly setup is at 45lb and it plays perfect..
no power but lots of control... and top spin..
 
#21
The idea is to try and get the final strung tensions of the mains and the crosses to be more even. Mains typically end up 20-30% higher tension than the crosses when strung at the same tension according to those that have tested and measured this. I don't really have a good way to measure it myself, but I understand the reasoning behind it and it makes sense to me.
Main ends up 20-30% more higher tensioned is correct in a typical string job. You can check easily with an inexpensive StringMeter. Yes, I know SM readings do not equate tension but there is a corrolation. But higher differential you mentioned does not bring the main/cross tension more even. Though I am doing an experiment at this time to verify that. But generally increasing cross ref. tension to increases cross tension.


.. (High differential..)It seems to me that stringing this way gives the mains more freedom to move and snap back, enhancing spin, and the lower crosses feels softer and enhances the pocketing and enlarges the sweet spot.
My opinion is high differential is a myth. It does change string bed stiffness and increase snap bak, spin, and pocketing. But I believe those properties are not unique to high differential. Again more experiment is needed.

However I think tuning just the cross tension can be a way to quickly find the optimum cross tension. (Based on the assumption that main tension is consistent, which I do not believe is true.) Just cut out or restring the cross string at different tension.

And I do think Kevlar/ZX or Kevlar/poly is a valid option for string breakers, once you get the pre-stretch routine and tension dialed in.
 
#22
My opinion is high differential is a myth. It does change string bed stiffness and increase snap bak, spin, and pocketing. But I believe those properties are not unique to high differential. Again more experiment is needed.
I've played about 4 hours of doubles and 4 hours of singles now on my stick that I strung at 52/36. It seems to be holding up really well with no detectable change in playability as far as I can tell. I am finding it to be a really good mix of power, control, and feel, and I think by the time I break these strings I might be wanting to up the tension a smidge just from getting in better shape. After a long layoff, hitting some good singles is wearing me out. :)

In any case, I'm not sure if I could duplicate this string bed at a 0 differential tension or not. Maybe it's possible, but I'm liking this setup so much I don't think I'm curious enough to even try.

I would guess that I could get pretty close, but I think the difference would be how the string bed reacts to a range of spins and pace. I'm not sure how you would reliably test that though. For me if it feels good when I hit a good shot, and really good when I hit a really good shot, then I'm pretty happy with it. We got to hit a range of shots today doing singles rallies and point play, and the only thing I didn't like was when I framed a shot. Can't blame that on the strings though.
 
#23
Certain string combinations play better with mains much tighter than crosses, while others play best without a differential.

With full poly, for example, using an extreme tension differential is very helpful for improving comfort, increasing bite on the ball, and extending the playable life of the stringbed, as it reduces the degree of denting in the crosses, and also preserves the snapback effect until breakage, so the poly never "goes dead."

I am currently using a rather unique combination that plays great for me with mains and crosses at same tension, as the playing characteristics don't change over time for mulitple months of play until it's finally close to breakage.
 
#24
Division 1 team should have a deal with Solinco. If they don’t they should be able to get some support. Best option is go Hyper G.
Personally Tour Bite is too stiff for me in Wilson frames at 50lbs. Hyper G is totally fine at 50-52lbs and know players stringing 54-55 with no problems.
 
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#25
I'm not sure how you would reliably test that though. For me if it feels good when I hit a good shot, and really good when I hit a really good shot, then I'm pretty happy with it. We got to hit a range of shots today doing singles rallies and point play, and the only thing I didn't like was when I framed a shot. Can't blame that on the strings though.
The ultimate test is the play test. So you can decide how you like your string bed.

What I know from reading SM is that dropping the cross tension, you are actually lowing the main tension more than cross tension. I dropped 3 lbs on the cross and the main came down almost 3 lbs and cross just barely not quite a lb. (disclaimer: SM's smallest unit is 5 lbs but with a large gap. Anything smaller than 5 lb is estimate. But I feel that I can reliably read to within 2 lbs.) But you know what? At a cold morning like this morning, the SM reading of 53/50 went up to about the same level of 53/53. Temperature effects the string bed more than differential.
 
#26
What I know from reading SM is that dropping the cross tension, you are actually lowing the main tension more than cross tension.
Yes, the way frames are mounted when we string does have some interesting consequences. The fact that we restrain the top and bottom of a frame from compressing, but don't restrain the sides means the crosses have more of an effect on the mains tension than we might suspect at first. So changing the cross tension up or down has a direct effect on the resulting tension of the mains beyond what we set on the machine. There's also the issue of the crosses being shorter so they deflect less than the mains. It's a bit more art than science at this point with theories on what we "should" be doing with our strings and tension. I've also said many times, the preferred setup is going to vary from player to player and even frame to frame. So whatever we tell ourselves about why we try what we try is probably wrong for reasons we don't know yet. But as you stated earlier, it all boils down to how it plays.
 
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