Collin Altamirano

CaliDawg

Rookie
? "Officially turned pro" is not equal to "Signed with an agent"

What is False?

"Officially turning pro" implies some combination of signing with an agent, accepting endorsement money, or earning more than $10k + expenses. You're right in a strictly literal sense that declaring that you're turning pro may be meaningless, but why would you say that if one of the conditions listed above wasn't true. Otherwise, you gain nothing by saying this but lose a shot at a tennis scholarship by turning away interested college coaches. Not to mention, even if the conditions above weren't met and a college coach still stayed interested enough to offer a scholarship, he'd have a very tough time getting through the NCAA clearinghouse. So -- for all practical purposes -- we can assume Baughman will not be accepting a D1 scholarship.
 
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CaliDawg

Rookie
If you read the regulation is it more clear than the synopsis. You can keep prize money up to 10k more than your expenses for all tournaments. Looking at the prize money list for 2014 you have to be top 300 before you make 10k more than expenses so I don't think anyone is going to be ineligible due to winning too much prize money.

I guess the possible exception would be someone who was awarded a wild card for a grand slam.

Here's the official wording:

In tennis, prior to full-time collegiate enrollment, an individual may accept up to $10,000 per calendar year in prize money based on his or her place finish or performance in athletics events. Such prize money may be provided only by the sponsor of an event in which the individual participates. Once the individual has accepted $10,000 in prize money in a particular year, he or she may receive additional prize money on a per-event basis, provided such prize money does not exceed the individual's actual and necessary expenses for participation in the event. The calculation of actual and necessary expenses shall not include the expenses or fees of anyone other than the individual (e.g, coach's fees or expenses, parent's expenses). (Adopted: 4/26/12, Revised: 1/19/13 effective 8/1/13)

Source: https://web1.ncaa.org/LSDBi/exec/by...ted Items&multiple=33166&division=1&adopted=0
 

andfor

Legend
Anyone know if DB signed with an agent or signed a endorsement contract. That would end the college option.
 

Rob_C

Hall of Fame
I think a common sense resolution would be to allow the players to keep whatever they earn, however, to remain eligible, just place it in a trust fund for the 4 years, or however long they wish to play college tennis.

That way, they arent forfeiting thousands of dollars, but they also arent making hasty decisions to turn pro either.
 

andfor

Legend
I think a common sense resolution would be to allow the players to keep whatever they earn, however, to remain eligible, just place it in a trust fund for the 4 years, or however long they wish to play college tennis.

That way, they arent forfeiting thousands of dollars, but they also arent making hasty decisions to turn pro either.

That would essentially make them pros. Pretty sure the unintended consequence would be an even larger influx of internationals playing college tennis.
 

DaveKB

Rookie
I think a common sense resolution would be to allow the players to keep whatever they earn, however, to remain eligible, just place it in a trust fund for the 4 years, or however long they wish to play college tennis.

That way, they aren't forfeiting thousands of dollars, but they also arent making hasty decisions to turn pro either.


These guys are playing Futures and maybe a few Challengers. The total prize money in these events is very small and few guys play more than a round or two. Maybe others know more about the money details, but I expect the prize money they are getting does not even cover expenses (air fare and hotel and food), so I doubt anyone would be building much of trust fund.

I was told at the US Open by someone who should know that roughly speaking the 163rd best tennis player in the world, who has typical worldwide travel, coaching, training, racquets, stringing, practice partners, etc. expenses loses on a net basis about $163,000 a year. The #163 best NFL player makes about $2.3 million and has virtually no expenses, because the team provides them This guy is mostly playing Futures and Challengers, but hardly any ATP events. This source told me that to break even after typical expenses you have be about #75 in the world if you are man and higher if you are a woman. Eventually, as you rise up further in the rankings you start getting more free stuff and get some sponsors.

The fact is that pro tennis lags way behind other major sports and only those at the top make any really big money, so I doubt any future college player is making enough to cover more than his expenses.

These numbers are very relevant to anyone trying to decide whether to turn pro or go to college, where almost all expenses are covered.
 

Rob_C

Hall of Fame
That would essentially make them pros. Pretty sure the unintended consequence would be an even larger influx of internationals playing college tennis.

I disagree. If they're currently allowing jrs to collect up to 10K per yr, even if its above expenses, if Im understanding it correctly, and still remain eligible, then allow players to get reimbursed for expenses and any amount above that goes into a trust fund.

As far as that making them pros, the NCAA is getting closer to paying football & basketball players. Soubds like Title IX might complicate things though. Also, the Olympics and Davis Cup used to forbid pro tennis players from participating. They've since changed their tune.
 

Rob_C

Hall of Fame
These guys are playing Futures and maybe a few Challengers. The total prize money in these events is very small and few guys play more than a round or two. Maybe others know more about the money details, but I expect the prize money they are getting does not even cover expenses (air fare and hotel and food), so I doubt anyone would be building much of trust fund.

I was told at the US Open by someone who should know that roughly speaking the 163rd best tennis player in the world, who has typical worldwide travel, coaching, training, racquets, stringing, practice partners, etc. expenses loses on a net basis about $163,000 a year. The #163 best NFL player makes about $2.3 million and has virtually no expenses, because the team provides them This guy is mostly playing Futures and Challengers, but hardly any ATP events. This source told me that to break even after typical expenses you have be about #75 in the world if you are man and higher if you are a woman. Eventually, as you rise up further in the rankings you start getting more free stuff and get some sponsors.

The fact is that pro tennis lags way behind other major sports and only those at the top make any really big money, so I doubt any future college player is making enough to cover more than his expenses.

These numbers are very relevant to anyone trying to decide whether to turn pro or go to college, where almost all expenses are covered.
I think you're supporting my point. Lets take Noah Rubin, or the girl that won the NCAA championship this yr, Danielle Collins. They both had to forfeit the prize money in order to remain eligible to play college. They might not get that type of payday again. Ok, Im pretty sure Rubin will get a few more MD WCs to pro events, but theyre certainly not guaranteed pro success. If and when they do turn pro, that money could help them afford the coaching and travel needed to succeed, instead of being 'wasted'.
 
The fact is that pro tennis lags way behind other major sports and only those at the top make any really big money, so I doubt any future college player is making enough to cover more than his expenses.

This is the key statement. The only players who get a large enough pay day to put them over the threshold are the ones who are given WCs into an ATP main draw. (where they quickly lose in the first round). So not a real issue.
 

DaveKB

Rookie
I think you're supporting my point. Lets take Noah Rubin, or the girl that won the NCAA championship this yr, Danielle Collins. They both had to forfeit the prize money in order to remain eligible to play college. They might not get that type of payday again. Ok, Im pretty sure Rubin will get a few more MD WCs to pro events, but theyre certainly not guaranteed pro success. If and when they do turn pro, that money could help them afford the coaching and travel needed to succeed, instead of being 'wasted'.


If you are talking about the WC's these two underclass men/women two got into the US Open where 1st round losers earn about $40,000 then they did have to forfeit some of that. Very few college player get WC's into the main draw of the US Open. Most are lucky to get WC' s into qualifiers of any tour event, even Challengers and Futures events and few emerge into the main draws.

Actually with the one exception above I doubt any (well maybe a couple over the years) college players make more than his expenses at any pro tournament, so I think this putting money away for the future is not possible.
 

Rob_C

Hall of Fame
Actually with the one exception above I doubt any (well maybe a couple over the years) college players make more than his expenses at any pro tournament, so I think this putting money away for the future is not possible.

Just read the NCAA rule. You can keep up to 10K per yr, once you reach that cap, you can only keep an amount up to your individual expenses, not your coach or parents, etc, on a per event basis.

Once you are in college, you can only get your expenses reimbursed.

I think thats hypocritical. If you allow people to accept prize money before attending college, and still consider them eligible, why not allow them to accept it while in college??

So, I guess Rubin could have kept up to 10K of his US Open prize money since it occurred before he started college??
 

DaveKB

Rookie
Just read the NCAA rule. You can keep up to 10K per yr, once you reach that cap, you can only keep an amount up to your individual expenses, not your coach or parents, etc, on a per event basis.

Once you are in college, you can only get your expenses reimbursed.

I think thats hypocritical. If you allow people to accept prize money before attending college, and still consider them eligible, why not allow them to accept it while in college??

So, I guess Rubin could have kept up to 10K of his US Open prize money since it occurred before he started college??

I do not know what he did, but I do not think he enrolled at WF until the coming 2nd semester starting in January, so maybe he did keep the $10K? I think first semester classes start at WF in mid August and the US Open was later than that.
 

Rob_C

Hall of Fame
I do not know what he did, but I do not think he enrolled at WF until the coming 2nd semester starting in January, so maybe he did keep the $10K? I think first semester classes start at WF in mid August and the US Open was later than that.

Also, did you know that the NCAA allows Olympic athletes to accept money based on performance from National Olympic Committees, in Olympic years, and still remain eligible?? Missy Franklin was able to keep 100K from the '12 Olympics and still be considered an 'amateur'. How's that different from Rubin or Collins??

http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2012/08/why-missy-franklin-retains-her-ncaa.html?m=1

Its all hypocrisy if you ask me.
 

andfor

Legend
OK you win. It's all a pipe dream anyway. Getting the NCAA to changes those rules and or restrict internationals won't happen anytime soon.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Also, did you know that the NCAA allows Olympic athletes to accept money based on performance from National Olympic Committees, in Olympic years, and still remain eligible?? Missy Franklin was able to keep 100K from the '12 Olympics and still be considered an 'amateur'. How's that different from Rubin or Collins??

http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2012/08/why-missy-franklin-retains-her-ncaa.html?m=1

Its all hypocrisy if you ask me.

Agree that we should pay these college athletes. they just spend too much time conditioning, training and practicing and playing that takes away too much time from academics. Time = Money. so we should pay them.
 

andfor

Legend
Agree that we should pay these college athletes. they just spend too much time conditioning, training and practicing and playing that takes away too much time from academics. Time = Money. so we should pay them.

That might happen for D1 football and basketball athletes. Let it happen and you can say goodbye to nonrevenue sports at the d1 level.
 

CaliDawg

Rookie
That might happen for D1 football and basketball athletes. Let it happen and you can say goodbye to nonrevenue sports at the d1 level.

Giving all scholarship athletes a stipend to account for the "full cost of attendance" or at least permitting them to profit off their own likeness -- whether in real time of via a trust -- would do little to endanger the Olympic sports.
 

andfor

Legend
Giving all scholarship athletes a stipend to account for the "full cost of attendance" or at least permitting them to profit off their own likeness -- whether in real time of via a trust -- would do little to endanger the Olympic sports.

What does a stipend account consist of? Use of player likeness has been addressed by the NCAA removing them from video games. Allow revenue to flow as payment to athletes and beware of the unintended consequenses. Don't bet on non revenue based athletes participating in pay for play anyways.
 

Rob_C

Hall of Fame
Allow revenue to flow as payment to athletes and beware of the unintended consequenses.

Agree. There is no womens' football team, so if the men get paid, and the women are required to get paid an equal amount because of Title IX, how will that work?? Also, since mens basketball brings in more revenue than womens basketball, how will those payments be handled??
 
I do not know what he did, but I do not think he enrolled at WF until the coming 2nd semester starting in January, so maybe he did keep the $10K? I think first semester classes start at WF in mid August and the US Open was later than that.

He was enrolled at Wake and took classes in the fall.
 

okdude1992

Hall of Fame
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