Coming to America

#3
@tennisjunky Most college athletic programs are funded by student fees not by the tax payer directly. British college players were some of the nicest guys my son met-warmed up with one at a Future Quali who has recently gone deep in several Futures; another is now an assistant college coach-think that player had a 4.0 or close to it in college. College tennis needs a mix of international and US players; the mix may be distorted now, but US players can learn from their international counterparts. The Brits tend to be smart, humble, and hardworking. Many just play LTA and are underranked compared to their counterparts in Europe who may play more junior ITF and pro circuit tourneys. Most college teams would be lucky to have a Brit on the roster.

Internationals are not just playing D1. Many play D2 at schools that would be 95% state residents if it was not for out of state and international athletes. Students at those colleges benefit from exposure to other cultures-much needed in today's global marketplace.

US players have talent and can compete. Some of the energy focused against internationals should be focused on changing USTA and its junior development system or creating an alternative.
 
#4
I'm sure they are nice but that's not the point.:)
I'm in the oil and gas business and trust me, 1/2 our work force is international, that's because there is a huge demand and little supply for key personnel.
Colleges react to this and adjust their curriculums to fill available positions. What does tennis do..... ha, their answer is to continuously fool us with their excess supply.

I'm thinking...… at what point will countries of the world stop or slow down their tennis training programs in THEIR country.
They never will because their excess always comes here...…they are locked into our university system.
Its become a money maker for other countries.

But at some point the university will look at itself (usually after a failed season) and have to decide, if they want to continue to support the worlds tennis talent overflow.
Example, in 2018 in TX D1 schools internationals accounted for: 71% (m), 4 are 100% international, and 66%(W), 3 are 100% international.

Again..... what' the VALUE of having a 100% international tennis team when no one watches them play!!!


Too much coffee this afternoon.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#5
I'm sure they are nice but that's not the point.:)
I'm in the oil and gas business and trust me, 1/2 our work force is international, that's because there is a huge demand and little supply for key personnel.
Colleges react to this and adjust their curriculums to fill available positions. What does tennis do..... ha, their answer is to continuously fool us with their excess supply.

I'm thinking...… at what point will countries of the world stop or slow down their tennis training programs in THEIR country.
They never will because their excess always comes here...…they are locked into our university system.
Its become a money maker for other countries.

But at some point the university will look at itself (usually after a failed season) and have to decide, if they want to continue to support the worlds tennis talent overflow.
Example, in 2018 in TX D1 schools internationals accounted for: 71% (m), 4 are 100% international, and 66%(W), 3 are 100% international.

Again..... what' the VALUE of having a 100% international tennis team when no one watches them play!!!

Too much coffee this afternoon.
Tennis teams are judged by their record. If Americans want the spots they should be better.

Who watches or doesn't watch based on the nationality of players? Do they get TV revenue?

I don't think baseball viewership is down since they let them Latin fellows start playing.

You want people to choose Americans? Start by having Americans be better than the competition.

J
 
#6
I understand, but I don't think it matters how good they are. It’s not about the quality of competition.
Internationals should be competing against their country men/women in their own country.
Everyone wants to compete and be a winner, but universities should not be allowed to import ringers.
Its basic supply and demand.
But in this case there is a never ending supply.
If universities value college tennis, than they will work with USTA etc. to develop USA players, but we all know they are not interested in this, it’s all lip service.

I say, if you can't field a 100% USA team, than you need to cut back the players or DROP THE PROGRAM!!!
The size out the programs need to reflect the number of USA players participating in the program.


Just my 2 cents (or 2 euros)
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#8
I understand, but I don't think it matters how good they are. It’s not about the quality of competition.
Internationals should be competing against their country men/women in their own country.
Everyone wants to compete and be a winner, but universities should not be allowed to import ringers.
Its basic supply and demand.
But in this case there is a never ending supply.
If universities value college tennis, than they will work with USTA etc. to develop USA players, but we all know they are not interested in this, it’s all lip service.

I say, if you can't field a 100% USA team, than you need to cut back the players or DROP THE PROGRAM!!!
The size out the programs need to reflect the number of USA players participating in the program.


Just my 2 cents (or 2 euros)
Why? Don't you want our country to be better? Excluding talented people from other countries who want to come here hurts us.

Good foreign players graduate and get jobs here making America better.

J
 
#9
The players know the chance of making a career from tennis is harder than other sports the top 100 wr are winning prize money . the top D1 players rarely get much further than futures wr 300ish many d1 players stop playing after college I would imagine and use the education to get decent jobs to support their families. I think Cameron Norrie was the no. 1 college player and only made 60 wr. to make it as a top tennis player you need to be on the tour in Europe and around the world to have a better chance I see college tennis as a vehicle for the colleges to raise their profile and players to get an education. Seems like a good deal
. As he says in the video it's a great opportunity. Enjoy it.

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#10
I understand, but I don't think it matters how good they are. It’s not about the quality of competition.
Internationals should be competing against their country men/women in their own country.

Just my 2 cents (or 2 euros)
If we want college tennis to be a feasible route to the pros for US players, it helps US players to play international players on college campuses before or at the same time as they are playing pro matches. Players need to be exposed to different styles of play. My son has played or practiced with players from every continent but Antarctica without playing a single match on foreign soil. International juniors are training in the US and contributing to our GDP and giving US juniors an opportunity for international play without international travel. You can see the glass as half full or half empty. There is an issue with internationals making up 60% of lineup of top teams, but focusing on it rather than improving US players sends the message to US players that they are not good enough to play international players and they need to be protected from them. I dont see a talent issue; I see a development and systematic issue when Caribbean and Central American countries host 45+ jr iTFs a year, and the USA only hosts 17. USTA probably has a deal with ITF so most juniors still play USTA. If the USA hosted a pro rata share of jr ITFs and had juniors competing with international players at 15 and 16 on a regular basis, I think there would not be a problem filling rosters with 50% competitive American players.

To win you have to believe you can win. All this talk about great internationals may give US players an inferiority complex. Yes there are great international players, average international players, and some international players coming over that would not even make the singles lineup of some good US high school teams. There are male international players with UTRs even as low as 9 and 10 looking for spots unwanted by American players-of course those guys are not playing D1.
 
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#11
Maybe it comes down to this.
Are colleges training USA kids for pros?
If so, than yes I see your point. However if not (which is where I am), or at least not in a serious meaningful way....... than what's the point.
 
#12
If we want college tennis to be a feasible route to the pros for US players, it helps US players to play international players on college campuses before or at the same time as they are playing pro matches. .
If you want tennis to be feasible you need to play at futures level to gain atp points and to be playing players up to 400 wr consistently to get used to the level then you will find out if its feasible. College Tennis is a world in its self the level outside the top 10 players is not much more than inside the top 1000 and therefore you cannot get an idea of level you need to make it as a pro Unlike basket ball where I bet the college level is closer to the feasible pro level

Sent
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#13
If you want tennis to be feasible you need to play at futures level to gain atp points and to be playing players up to 400 wr consistently to get used to the level then you will find out if its feasible. College Tennis is a world in its self the level outside the top 10 players is not much more than inside the top 1000 and therefore you cannot get an idea of level you need to make it as a pro Unlike basket ball where I bet the college level is closer to the feasible pro level

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I'm confused, what exactly is your experience with college tennis and futures level players?

Because it sounds like you are just making stuff up.

J
 
#14
Maybe it comes down to this.
Are colleges training USA kids for pros?
If so, than yes I see your point. However if not (which is where I am), or at least not in a serious meaningful way....... than what's the point.
No they are not training them to become pro they are coaching them to be better players. No one is under any illusion that they are going to all be top 50 in the world. they are at college because they know they aren't good enough or strong enough to become a top pro. It's something that only the smartest among us realise and accept at a young age.
Although it depends what you mean by pro
I mean a coach in a local park is a pro so then maybe they are

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#15
@dave e dave There are several US college players ranked in the top 400. Just watched JJ Wolf (livestream) reach the SF of a Challenger he got in with a WC. Won his last two matches 0,0 and 2,1. I am sure playing top international players as well as practicing with high level international players on his team (OSU) has improved his game so he can beat players ranked in the 200s. For other college players, they may play a couple Future or Future Qualis not because they plan to be pros, but just to test themselves and prep themselves for the college season. David Miley who used to work for ITF and plans to run for ITF president in 2019 said the top 10-20 college players are equivalent to top 300-400 ATP. and we are seeing that they are at least as good as that. We are seeing more college players reach top 100 or 200 just 12-18 months out of university, e.g. Norrie, Mackie MacDonald, Eubanks. College is the best of both worlds for many players who are not obviously top 100 at 18-test the pro tour but have an education to fall back on (or have the option to finish if they left early).
 
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#16
J[/QUOTE]I think it depends on what you mean by pro
A pro basketball or football player would be on a wage with a team a pro tennis player would need to be winning events and gaining atp points you can't get that at that at a college.


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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#17
I think it depends on what you mean by pro
A pro basketball or football player would be on a wage with a team a pro tennis player would need to be winning events and gaining atp points you can't get that at that at a college.


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You didn't answer my question. What is your experience with college tennis and futures level players?

J
 
#18
I think it depends on what you mean by pro
A pro basketball or football player would be on a wage with a team a pro tennis player would need to be winning events and gaining atp points you can't get that at that at a college.


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College players can take fall off or play selected fall pro events and earn points. JJ Wolf is playing a Challenger on his home university courts this week while enrolled in classes-winter classes may not have started yet. Some players take online courses. Can do both at the same time for top players who can go deep in a few events. Just cant keep $ above expenses. If college pays for players to go to Future/Challenger, then I assume player does not take any $ but still gets the ATP points.
 
#19
@dave e dave There are several US college players ranked in the top 400. Just watched JJ Wolf (livestream) reach the SF of a Challenger he got in with a WC. Won his last two matches 0,0 and 2,1. I am sure playing top international players as well as practicing with high level international players on his team (OSU) has improved his game so he can beat players ranked in the 200s. For other college players, they may play a couple Future or Future Qualis not because they plan to be pros, but just to test themselves and prep themselves for the college season. David Miley who used to work for ITF and plans to run for ITF president in 2019 said the top 10-20 college players are equivalent to top 300-400 ATP. and we are seeing that they are at least as good as that. We are seeing more college players reach top 100 or 200 just 12-18 months out of university, e.g. Norrie, Mackie MacDonald, Eubanks. College is the best of both worlds for many players who are not obviously top 100 at 18-test the pro tour but have an education to fall back on (or have the option to finish if they left early)
 
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#21
College players can take fall off or play selected fall pro events and earn points. JJ Wolf is playing a Challenger on his home university courts this week while enrolled in classes-winter classes may not have started yet. Some players take online courses. Can do both at the same time for top players who can go deep in a few events. Just cant keep $ above expenses. If college pays for players to go to Future/Challenger, then I assume player does not take any $ but still gets the ATP points.
You need to be doing 25 tournaments a year to give yourself a chance to earn points and get out of the futures into main draw challenger then you get used to the level then you start to go deeper into the draw then you start to see how far you can go. Tennis is an international game you cannot be a pro playing in only one country
It not baseball

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#22
You need to be doing 25 tournaments a year to give yourself a chance to earn points and get out of the futures into main draw challenger then you get used to the level then you start to go deeper into the draw then you start to see how far you can go. Tennis is an international game you cannot be a pro playing in only one country
It not baseball

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That is the struggle for college players in that they cant play 25 tourneys a year and attend university-most play <15. The ones that are improving in the rankings attend universities that host Futures and Challengers and can give them WCs so they dont have to play as many tourneys. However, if they get better every year and at least maintain a ranking to get in Future and Challenger events, they will be more mature physically and mentally at 22 and possibly spend less $ to reach top 100 or 150 when they graduate or lose college eligibility. However, there are only a dozen college players or less who have the potential of being top 150 one day. For those guys, college is a cheaper way to develop rather than spend $50K-$100K for several years to develop on their own. More top junior players-those outside the top 100 ITF juniors who get reserved spots in $15ks-may decide to play college first and if they grow their game in college, they still have a chance at pro tennis later-SFists, Finalists, and winners at some college tourneys will get WCs, and the ultimate WC is the US open WC if an American wins NCAA singles.
 
#23
I think you may be able to train a player to be good enough to beat top 100 players consistently after a 4 year college course but as yet they haven't done that

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#24
Average age of ATP top 100 around 26-28 years old. Tennys Sandgren case in point now 27. Supporting ones self on the tour for 6-8 years to start making money is not realistic for most players. Internationals do provide a great mix in college tennis at all levels. If more American kids would play college tennis after high school at all levels D1, D2, D3, NAIA and JUCO there would be less room for internationals. Many college tennis playing opportunities are available. College coaches fill their rosters with players who are interested. Internationals aren't college choice snobs like many American tennis kids. Top internationals will play for a mid-major or non Power 5 conference schools.
 
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#25
Maybe all that futures tennis wears people out. It is very low key full of match fixing and the points and prize money for winning is not worth much given the effort. maybe a better approach is for players to target higher value events. it would save them money on travel and burn out.

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#26
Maybe all that futures tennis wears people out. It is very low key full of match fixing and the points and prize money for winning is not worth much given the effort. maybe a better approach is for players to target higher value events. it would save them money on travel and burn out.

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Maybe. I know a guy who won many Futures (Satellites at the time) and would try to skip the Challengers to play ATP and GS qualifiers. He peaked around 197. Just one example, I know, but skipping the Challengers so much may have denied him additional improvement opportunites. German, French, Euro club tennis is very high level and a decent way to make some money outside of tournament play.
 
#27
@dave e dave
Since you are familar with British tennis, can you explain the British Aegon tour premier, tier 1, and tier 2, and how it compares in level to Futures, college tennis, etc? I know there are midmajor college players in US that won tier 2s-do tier 1 winners usually get spots on top US teams? Do most British college players play Aegon Tour events during their summer home or do they try to play Futures in Europe I looked at the ITF 2018 calendar and saw UK only hosted 6 Futures, none that were held during the summer. I assume the Aegon Tour events in June are grass, but are the events after Wimbledon on other surfaces?

I am curious what international college players do during the summer-work, play tourneys, or some combination. I guess how much they need to work vs practice tennis depends on their scholarship level. I wonder if the European players in Germany, France, Spain etc have an easier time working some and playing tourneys because of the club system. In the US, college players could play Future or Future Qualis in the summer but with the 2019 changes the draws are greatly reduced. The US has a very structured and tiered junior program but does not have a structured series of tournament for US players over 18; players who wanted to improve over the summer used to play Futures. Is the Aegon Tour both for high level Brit juniors, college students on break, and aspiring pros? The ITA, the US college tennis association, runs 50 summer circuit tourneys over 6 weeks but anyone can get in so mostly juniors and low level college players play (D2, D3 outside top teams, mainly the level of line 5 and 6 of midmajor D1 and lower). Can Brit players get a rating in Europe and play club over the summer?
 
#28
@dave e dave
Since you are familar with British tennis, can you explain the British Aegon tour premier, tier 1, and tier 2, and how it compares in level to Futures, college tennis, etc? I know there are midmajor college players in US that won tier 2s-do tier 1 winners usually get spots on top US teams? Do most British college players play Aegon Tour events during their summer home or do they try to play Futures in Europe I looked at the ITF 2018 calendar and saw UK only hosted 6 Futures, none that were held during the summer. I assume the Aegon Tour events in June are grass, but are the events after Wimbledon on other surfaces?

I am curious what international college players do during the summer-work, play tourneys, or some combination. I guess how much they need to work vs practice tennis depends on their scholarship level. I wonder if the European players in Germany, France, Spain etc have an easier time working some and playing tourneys because of the club system. In the US, college players could play Future or Future Qualis in the summer but with the 2019 changes the draws are greatly reduced. The US has a very structured and tiered junior program but does not have a structured series of tournament for US players over 18; players who wanted to improve over the summer used to play Futures. Is the Aegon Tour both for high level Brit juniors, college students on break, and aspiring pros? The ITA, the US college tennis association, runs 50 summer circuit tourneys over 6 weeks but anyone can get in so mostly juniors and low level college players play (D2, D3 outside top teams, mainly the level of line 5 and 6 of midmajor D1 and lower). Can Brit players get a rating in Europe and play club over the summer?
I'd say a British tour Premier and tier 1 event is comparable to a 15 k futures 25k wta the level in the main draw is wr 300 top end to 1100 and mainly British players enter but not exclusively. There is also the level below grade 3 lta events where many college applicants play and also are a very good place for a futures or top college player to get a work out in say the final stages. As for British futures yes there is only a few. there used to be a lot more. And given it's a grand slam nation who's governing body is quite wealthy it should have more. But then the top brits do tend to get around. Look through this channel you will find many of the top British players and many collage players in action at British tour events.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCevWjKJMiXz2RNWAfkdnpyA

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Nacho

Professional
#29
I'm for a mix of internationals and Domestic players. Tennis, unlike other more mainstream sports, is an international sport. So it makes sense that a tennis team would attract its share of international players.

I am more disappointed American players presence has declined across many teams, and that some teams are completely international. Why would a coach need to go that route? Because the international player is more developed, then American Jr's, to jump into the College system, and the tools to mature and develop American players just aren't there. Additionally, American Jr players, if they are a 4 star or less, opt not to even bother with college tennis in many cases.

Not faulting the result, but seeds sown in the USTA development programs of the 90's have grown to produce few American players in the college an pro ranks. I hope some recent changes and UTR can impact it the other way, and I am excited to see a few American Jr's find success in college, which hopefully will lead itself into the pros. I'll keep following college tennis because I enjoy it and there is some good tennis, but it will be many years (if ever) I am afraid before it will ever be mainstream or popular to the degree it was in the 1970's and 80's.
 
#30
I agree with Nacho. I'm 65 YO, and I don't believe that a change will happen in time for me to see it. Certainly not in the handful of years that I intend to continue officiating.
 
#31
I went to a college camp this weekend and one of the parents asked a player what the best thing about the school was and he said meeting people from all walks of life and all around the world.

I instantly thought of this thread.

J
 
#32
I went to a college camp this weekend and one of the parents asked a player what the best thing about the school was and he said meeting people from all walks of life and all around the world.

I instantly thought of this thread.

J
Is that a good thing? Maybe. But it's why college tennis players aren't really taken seriously . On what grounds are people given scholarships anyway?

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#33
No BS.... here is a simple story that recently played out at a near by college that I'm sure others have experienced......... but left me frustrated and suprised at what young kids pickup on.

I take a couple of junior players (12s) that I train to a well known college (everyone knows) for a few tennis matches.
Their games had slacked recently and I was only trying different things to get them motivated and keep the tennis spark. Sure many have been there and its anything new.
I was thinking if they saw lots of college players having fun, chanting and playing good matches that it might refocus why we train hard have fun and maybe inspire them to stay focused and see a bigger picture.

Essentially the day went well but at certain point I could see their attention faded..... I kept up the good spirits but I could see that something wasn't right. Toward the end we were talking and they said...... are these players Americans? This really caught me off guard.
Honestly, the team is about 80% European, but I wasn't concerned and didn't tell them, seriously we were just watching matches.
We didn't dwell on this, but needless to say I could easily see they were NOT impressed. They said they were walking around analyzing matches and opponents and noticed them speaking different languages even the coaches. Now, kids are kids and they say what they say very directly sometimes. Afterward they said they just felt funny about the whole situation. And as a side note, their parents are European along with best friend........ but all the kids see themselves as 100% American and they said they were expecting to see local players are at least from our region.
Obviously, I down played this and didn't make a bid deal of it and even spun it to talk about tennis being an international game, but looking through a juniors eyes I can easily see their point!

They get motivated by seeing their peers (USA kids) play, not by seeing internationals (who they have nothing in common with) play.
Needless to say, we will not be going back to see another match. And I and won't be brining any other juniors in the near future.

Now, next week we go to a family members lacrosse tournament..... all kids there will be 100% American........
 
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#34
No BS.... here is a simple story that recently played out at a near by college that I'm sure others have experienced......... but left me frustrated and suprised at what young kids pickup on.

I take a couple of junior players (12s) that I train to a well known college (everyone knows) for a few tennis matches.
Their games had slacked recently and I was only trying different things to get them motivated and keep the tennis spark. Sure many have been there and its anything new.
I was thinking if they saw lots of college players having fun, chanting and playing good matches that it might refocus why we train hard have fun and maybe inspire them to stay focused and see a bigger picture.

Essentially the day went well but at certain point I could see their attention faded..... I kept up the good spirits but I could see that something wasn't right. Toward the end we were talking and they said...... are these players Americans? This really caught me off guard.
Honestly, the team is about 80% European, but I wasn't concerned and didn't tell them, seriously we were just watching matches.
We didn't dwell on this, but needless to say I could easily see they were NOT impressed. They said they were walking around analyzing matches and opponents and noticed them speaking different languages even the coaches. Now, kids are kids and they say what they say very directly sometimes. Afterward they said they just felt funny about the whole situation. And as a side note, their parents are European along with best friend........ but all the kids see themselves as 100% American and they said they were expecting to see local players are at least from our region.
Obviously, I down played this and didn't make a bid deal of it and even spun it to talk about tennis being an international game, but looking through a juniors eyes I can easily see their point!

They get motivated by seeing their peers (USA kids) play, not by seeing internationals (who they have nothing in common with) play.
Needless to say, we will not be going back to see another match. And I and won't be brining any other juniors in the near future.

Now, next week we go to a family members lacrosse tournament..... all kids there will be 100% American........
B.S.

J
 
#35
Toward the end we were talking and they said...... are these players Americans? This really caught me off guard. Honestly, the team is about 80% European, but I wasn't concerned and didn't tell them, seriously we were just watching matches.
We didn't dwell on this, but needless to say I could easily see they were NOT impressed. They said they were walking around analyzing matches and opponents and noticed them speaking different languages even the coaches. Now, kids are kids and they say what they say very directly sometimes. Afterward they said they just felt funny about the whole situation. And as a side note, their parents are European along with best friend........ but all the kids see themselves as 100% American and they said they were expecting to see local players are at least from our region.
Obviously, I down played this and didn't make a bid deal of it and even spun it to talk about tennis being an international game, but looking through a juniors eyes I can easily see their point!

They get motivated by seeing their peers (USA kids) play, not by seeing internationals (who they have nothing in common with) play.
Needless to say, we will not be going back to see another match. And I and won't be brining any other juniors in the near future.

Now, next week we go to a family members lacrosse tournament..... all kids there will be 100% American........
I hate to break this to you buddy. If you ever work in the software industry or medical industry, you will notice that the majority of software engineers are neither white nor born Americans. They are either foreigners or naturalized US Citizens. Does that mean that you will boycott using the ATM, using Credit Card and stop going to see a doctor? Because most of that work are being done by people who are naturalized US Citizens who don't fit your definition as "Americans".

I don't have any issues with schools like Wake Forrest having 100% of foreign players on the tennis team because this is a private University and it can do whatever it sees fit. I do have an issue with public universities like University of Virginia, Ohio State University having a majority of foreign players on the tennis team because these schools are funded by the tax payers. That's the difference.
 
#36
I hate to break this to you buddy. If you ever work in the software industry or medical industry, you will notice that the majority of software engineers are neither white nor born Americans. They are either foreigners or naturalized US Citizens. Does that mean that you will boycott using the ATM, using Credit Card and stop going to see a doctor? Because most of that work are being done by people who are naturalized US Citizens who don't fit your definition as "Americans".

I don't have any issues with schools like Wake Forrest having 100% of foreign players on the tennis team because this is a private University and it can do whatever it sees fit. I do have an issue with public universities like University of Virginia, Ohio State University having a majority of foreign players on the tennis team because these schools are funded by the tax payers. That's the difference.
What are you talking about? Wake has 2 kids from within half an hour of me.

J
 
#38
I am using Wake as an example. Didn't WF have 100% of foreign players on the roster last year, or at least the starters?

The point is that WF is a private university and it can do whatever it wants with the roster. There are no tax payers involved here.
Last year they had 3 players who lived within half an hour of me.

J
 
#39
It is what it is......
I'm not saying it is right or wrong.

If your one of these people that just watch tennis than these folks will probably never understand how unique the sport is and how difficult it is to master it.
What I'm getting at is it takes years and years of practice (10+ years) for juniors to develop a proper game to hopefully gain access to a scholarship.
Parents flip the bills the whole time, they pay and pay and pay and pay and pay and pay and pay and pay then HOPEFULLY if the stars and moon line up correctly, you get an opportunity at a scholarship. What I've seen personally for the last 7 years is parent after parent pull their kids out of tennis in favor of other sports this is 100% undeniable.
Now the story... believe it or not is true.
I'm only trying to show that not only do we need to be concerned about parents pulling kids out, but ALSO kids not feeling like they have a a place in the sport, especially when they go to their favorite college team and don't see USA kids on the team. All I'm saying is for a 12 year old, it zapped the energy out of the effort. Kids aren't stupid, they see what they see.
 
#40
I hate to break this to you buddy. If you ever work in the software industry or medical industry, you will notice that the majority of software engineers are neither white nor born Americans..
Your missing the point.
As adults we'll go and watch some good matches and that's it.

What I'm talking about is motivating kids in a sport that is already difficult at best to stick with tennis.

Are software engineers limited to 6-12 students per university with internationals taking all the slots with full ride scholarships?
Are schools dropping engineering and medical programs left and right?
Or can anyone just show up that has the grades and go into that program?
I don't understand your analogy...... but will be happy to support a boycott of ATM machines:)!
 
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#41
I hate to break this to you buddy. If you ever work in the software industry or medical industry, you will notice that the majority of software engineers are neither white nor born Americans.
I have been in the software industry since 1981 and have had the opposite experience. I hear that it is different in Silicon Valley, where they try to reduce labor costs using H-1B visas and immigrants, but that is another political issue that has nothing to do with tennis.
 
#42
I hate to break this to you buddy. ...

I don't have any issues with schools like Wake Forrest having 100% of foreign players on the tennis team because this is a private University and it can do whatever it sees fit. I do have an issue with public universities like University of Virginia, Ohio State University having a majority of foreign players on the tennis team because these schools are funded by the tax payers. That's the difference.
Okay your issue would be stronger for excluding foreign recipients from a tennis scholarship if you were an Ohio taxpayer whose revenue Ohio State University might use for student athlete.
The OSU tennis scholarships are all privately funded, I know one of those donors who support an athlete and have peace knowing no state revenue is wasted on the 4 1/2 scholarships for school expenses.
The issue would also have more credibility if the premise of “majority of foreign players on the roster” was accurate, a bit of research and math would reveal 20% international athletes, on OSU roster. https://ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/m-tennis/roster/
 
#43
Okay your issue would be stronger for excluding foreign recipients from a tennis scholarship if you were an Ohio taxpayer whose revenue Ohio State University might use for student athlete.
The OSU tennis scholarships are all privately funded, I know one of those donors who support an athlete and have peace knowing no state revenue is wasted on the 4 1/2 scholarships for school expenses.
The issue would also have more credibility if the premise of “majority of foreign players on the roster” was accurate, a bit of research and math would reveal 20% international athletes, on OSU roster. https://ohiostatebuckeyes.com/sports/m-tennis/roster/
The way I understand is that the tax payers of Ohio subsidize the tuition, room & board and student services for OSU general students. Let say it costs about 20k/year, tuition, room & board, and student services to attend OSU. The actual cost will be more like 25k/year because of the subsidy.

Now if the tennis scholarship is privately funded and given to "foreign" players at the cost of 25k/year, than I have absolutely NO issue with it. As long as the tax payers in the state of Ohio are NOT subdizing these players in any shape or forms, that is absolutely fine.

I DO have an issue when it involves tax payers money subsidizing these "foreign" players. That is just wrong. The state legislature should have a law that absolutely no tax payers moneyshould be used for this.
 
#44
The way I understand is that the tax payers of Ohio subsidize the tuition, room & board and student services for OSU general students. Let say it costs about 20k/year, tuition, room & board, and student services to attend OSU. The actual cost will be more like 25k/year because of the subsidy.

Now if the tennis scholarship is privately funded and given to "foreign" players at the cost of 25k/year, than I have absolutely NO issue with it. As long as the tax payers in the state of Ohio are NOT subdizing these players in any shape or forms, that is absolutely fine.

I DO have an issue when it involves tax payers money subsidizing these "foreign" players. That is just wrong. The state legislature should have a law that absolutely no tax payers moneyshould be used for this.
Do you have issues with Ohio tax payers subsidising players from Texas?

J
 
#45
I DO have an issue when it involves tax payers money subsidizing these "foreign" players. That is just wrong. The state legislature should have a law that absolutely no tax payers moneyshould be used for this.
Not sure what state you live in or who your state representatives are, but you do have the right as a US citizen to write to your representatives and object to your tax money being used for nefarious purposes like this.
 
#46
Do you have issues with Ohio tax payers subsidising players from Texas? J
That's why you have in-state and out-of-state tuition rate for residents and non-residents, respectively.

Well, you brought up an interesting issue that a colleague of mine at work had recently.

He lives in the state of Maryland and his daughter get a soccer scholarship to attend University of Virginia but with a caveat. She has to pay University of Virginia in-state tuition, at about 13.7K/year. Had she not offered any scholarship, she would have to pay 44k/year as an out-of-state student.
 
#49
Ok, this is outside my wheel house (always wanted to say that), but why do State schools and Private schools compete against each other if they don't have the same rules for who can be on their team?
Something to do with what conference your part of I'm sure but is there a standard set of requirements.
My main point is when a team is ranked #1...… but they might have different criteria for who they accept on the team.

Thanks for any comments, but honestly if you don't understand the issue, please don't respond as if you have keen insight.
 
#50
Ok, this is outside my wheel house (always wanted to say that), but why do State schools and Private schools compete against each other if they don't have the same rules for who can be on their team?
Something to do with what conference your part of I'm sure but is there a standard set of requirements.
My main point is when a team is ranked #1...… but they might have different criteria for who they accept on the team.

Thanks for any comments, but honestly if you don't understand the issue, please don't respond as if you have keen insight.
Not sure which rules you are talking about as there are a bunch of different rules, e.g. NCAA, school's own admission standards, conference rules, e.g. Ivy leagues offer no athletic scholarship and have much stricter admission standards as an entire conference. Within conferences there are both public and private universities. Vanderbilt and Tenn are both in the SEC, but I assume admissions standards are much higher for Vandy; coaches usually can get athlete in with scores several hundred points lower than average student; yet to play the student must take at least minimum credit hours and maintain a minimum GPA for NCAA academic eligibility which is the same for all D1 student athletes. Coach may not offer a scholarship or roster spot to a player who he could get in if ultimately coach thinks the athlete could become academically ineligible. If coach has two recruits who are similar in talent and ranking but one has higher GPA and scores, coach will probably go with the smarter athlete as that player might be able to get merit aid and not need as much athletic. However, there are public universities with high admissions standards and a tough curriculum-think GA Tech and many of the Big 10 schools have tough academics-most state flagship public universities have seen the academic level of students increase dramatically over the last couple decades-even the party schools so public does not mean "dumb" and private "smart" . All D1 tennis universities are limited to 4.5 athletic scholarships though schools may choose not to fund those scholarships. NCAA has minimum standards for SAT/ACT, core curriculum and GPA (to some degree a higher SAT/ACT offsets a lower GPA and vice versa-there is a NCAA chart). International players have to take SAT/ACT and TOEFL (though I think colleges not NCAA sets minimum TOEFL score). The top schools may bring in internationals who have played a lot of pro tournaments; those players may only have 1-2 years of eligibility. In spite of the Ivy League not giving out athletic scholarships, Columbia is usually ranked in top 20 with other Ivys in top 30 or 50.

Why do teams with different rules compete? Because teams want to reach the highest ranking so they have to compete against teams ranked higher and many of those will be in other conferences. I think it says a lot that Ivy's can compete with some of the top schools, but not the top 8; most players who play for top 8 schools probably traveled a lot to tournaments, home or virtually schooled, and completed a less rigorous curriculum, but there are some homeschoolers at Ivy's. I knew some homeschoolers that were interested in Ivy's who came back to regular high school their junior and senior year before being accepted to those Ivys. However if a totally virtually schooled players makes the needed scores on SAT subject exam, took a rigorous online curriculum, passed APs, and is high ranked, the Ivys would probably recruit that player. Ivy recruits have to get a favorable pre-read from admissions before being backed by coaches for a slot. So yes there are different standards, but if the players can still compete with top players with just NCAA standards, why not let them. An Ivy recruit beat Patrick Kypson who has now gone pro in August at Kzoo.

Wake #1 may have a lot of international players, but they are smart too: (from Wake news)
"Joining Chrysochos on the All-ACC Academic Team are Bar Botzer, Christian Seraphim, Yuval Solomon and Julian Zlobinksy (Chrysochos, Botzer, and Seraphim are internationals). Minimum academic requirements for selection to the All-ACC Academic Team are a 3.0 grade point average for the previous semester and a 3.0 cumulative average during one's academic career for undergraduate students." Botzer is older (24 yr old soph) but NCAA has age exceptions for athletes from countries that require military service-same rules for all D1 schools.
 
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