Comments by Paul Annacone on the greatness criteria (and Paris Masters)

“Personally, I don’t believe in the concept of ‘greatest of all time’. I think we can debate, if anything, the “most successful”, who has achieved the most in their career,”Annacone said in a recent interview.

Along with the Slams, Annacone feels other metrics like the weeks spent at world number one, Masters 1000 titles, Davis Cup titles, should also be considered. The 57-year-old coach then cited the example of Pete Sampras. According to Annacone, Pete Sampras once said that his greatest achievement is not the 14 Grand Slams won, but ending the year as the top-ranked player, a record six times. Djokovic has a chance of equaling that record this year.

He also pointed out that Djokovic has the best stats among the three in the last decade. “In short: the GOAT, for me, is not there. If anything, there will be a MAOAT: the most accomplished of all times,” Annacone expressed."


Link: atp-tennis-news-roger-federer-former-coach-dismisses-goat-debate-rafael-nadal-novak-djokovic

On a side Annacone gave his comments on the possible match-up between Coric and Nadal in the on-going Paris Masters. "Roger Federer's former coach Paul Annacone believes Borna Coric would be the favorite if he locks horns with Rafael Nadal in the third round. “I think Lopez is a dangerous match-up but let’s not forget that Borna Coric is two and two with Rafa,” Annacone said. “And one of those wins is indoors at Basel. So if Coric and Nadal play, I’m leaning Coric. I’m calling it now guys.”

Link: https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-paul-annacone-predicts-borna-coric-beat-rafael-nadal-meet-paris-masters?key1=googlenews
 

clout

Hall of Fame
Besides tennis, most of the other sports I watch closely are team sports who award seasonal MVPs and I guess that's why I've always viewed the YEN1/Player of the Year Award quite highly since that's the most effective way tennis can determine who was the most valuable player (MVP) of that season.
 

6august

Hall of Fame
Paul is soooo right.

Anyone above 40y-o or watched the game enough but still believe in the so called GOAT should do a CT scan.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Funny how many people who were certain Federer was the GOAT 4 or 5 years ago, suddenly don't believe in the concept of the GOAT now Nadal has tied the slam record.LOL!

It's so transparent and maybe the only way to save Fed's legacy. His fan club (in the media, not just his actual fans) built him up so much into this mythical GOAT thing for so long, that seeing one or two players in his own era overtake him while still playing is a crushing blow. So don't let those guys get the GOAT title. Let there be no GOAT, so Federer still gets to hold onto his dignity and claim he was one three players who were equally good in different ways.

If no one disputed the concept of GOAT when it was universally regarded as Federer, then the concept ain't going anywhere now that he can't universally be considered that.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
I can see why these so called experts make such ridiculous picks because they don't know what is going on. They, probably, only watch tennis when they can put in an invoice for their time. He should Know that Rafa was diagnosed with appendicitis in Shanghai 2014 where he lost to Feli there then played Basel where he lost to Coric. He was clearly ill and shouldn't have played but he likes to fulfil his obligations to the tournament.

Rafael Nadal to have surgery, miss rest of tennis season

Rafael Nadal will have season-ending surgery Nov. 3 for appendicitis, which will keep him out the Paris Masters and the ATP finals in London.

He announced the decision after losing to 17-year-old Borna Coric in the quarterfinals of the Swiss Indoors in Basel.

 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
GOAT has always been a subjective title and the Federer-lovers were just hiding behind the 20-slam, 310 weeks at #1 records as being concrete reasons for him to be the GOAT because they thought those records would never be broken. Now that both records look like they will be broken next year by Federer’s two biggest rivals, many experts are starting to say that the GOAT title is subjective so that they have the freedom to still pick Federer as their choice.

Apart from hardcore Nadal fans and lovers of clay court tennis, no one else (or very few) in the tennis world thinks of Nadal as their subjective choice for GOAT in their minds because they think both Federer and Djokovic are better than Nadal on grass and hard courts which they feel are more important surfaces. So, Nadal has to finish at least 2 or 3 Slams ahead of Federer and Djokovic by the time they all retire for many people to grudgingly accept him as the GOAT and it will help his case if he wins a couple of more Slams outside of RG.

In my subjective opinion, I will think of Nadal as the GOAT if he finishes his career at least 2 Slams better than Federer and Djokovic. If Djokovic ties or beats Federer’s Slam count and finishes his career within 2 Slams of Nadal, I will pick Djokovic as my GOAT - I already think he is the BOAT. If Djokovic does not get to Federer‘s Slam count and Nadal finishes only 1 Slam ahead of Federer, I will continue to think of Federer as the GOAT which is my current opinion. There is no point arguing with me because I am going by my ‘eye test’ and arbitrary criterion I choose to pick - I have no interest in convincing other people to think like me.
 
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Funny how many people who were certain Federer was the GOAT 4 or 5 years ago, suddenly don't believe in the concept of the GOAT now Nadal has tied the slam record.LOL!

It's so transparent and maybe the only way to save Fed's legacy. His fan club (in the media, not just his actual fans) built him up so much into this mythical GOAT thing for so long, that seeing one or two players in his own era overtake him while still playing is a crushing blow. So don't let those guys get the GOAT title. Let there be no GOAT, so Federer still gets to hold onto his dignity and claim he was one three players who were equally good in different ways.

If no one disputed the concept of GOAT when it was universally regarded as Federer, then the concept ain't going anywhere now that he can't universally be considered that.
That's 154 more words; keep it up! C+
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Funny how many people who were certain Federer was the GOAT 4 or 5 years ago, suddenly don't believe in the concept of the GOAT now Nadal has tied the slam record.LOL!

It's so transparent and maybe the only way to save Fed's legacy. His fan club (in the media, not just his actual fans) built him up so much into this mythical GOAT thing for so long, that seeing one or two players in his own era overtake him while still playing is a crushing blow. So don't let those guys get the GOAT title. Let there be no GOAT, so Federer still gets to hold onto his dignity and claim he was one three players who were equally good in different ways.

If no one disputed the concept of GOAT when it was universally regarded as Federer, then the concept ain't going anywhere now that he can't universally be considered that.
For almost 20 years, they have proclaimed Federer as the GOAT. That is now cemented in the minds of the public who have been brainwashed into thinking that everyone is aspiring to get to Federer's lofty heights and repeatedly say "Federer has broken ALL the records" which is patently untrue. I think they will move away from the numbers because they no longer stand up and the criteria will soon be the best ambassador for the sport which they have already decided is Federer and which can't be measured.
 
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octogon

Hall of Fame
Apart from hardcore Nadal fans and lovers of clay court tennis, no one else in the tennis world thinks of Nadal as their subjective choice for GOAT in their minds because they think both Federer and Djokovic are better than Nadal on grass and hard courts which they feel are more important surfaces.
This statement is patently false, unless you have actually polled everyone in tennis world. Andre Agassi has regarded Nadal as the GOAT before he even tied the slam record. Same for Maria Sharapova, whom a lot of Federer fans chastised for calling Nadal GOAT (and not clay Goat either), even when Fed had sole possession of the slam record. And Brad Gilbert said Nadal is now the GOAT on #20. That's just three significant people in the "tennis world" off the top of my head who consider Nadal the GOAT. Who knows how many others are now solidly in the "Nadal is GOAT" camp, especially since he got #20.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
GOAT has always been a subjective title and the Federer-lovers were just hiding behind the 20-slam, 310 weeks at #1 records as being concrete reasons for him to be the GOAT because they thought those records would never be broken. Now that both records look like they will be broken next year by Federer’s two biggest rivals, many experts are starting to say that the GOAT title is subjective so that they have the freedom to still pick Federer as their choice.

Apart from hardcore Nadal fans and lovers of clay court tennis, no one else in the tennis world thinks of Nadal as their subjective choice for GOAT in their minds because they think both Federer and Djokovic are better than Nadal on grass and hard courts which they feel are more important surfaces. So, Nadal has to finish at least 2 or 3 Slams ahead of Federer and Djokovic by the time they all retire for many people to grudgingly accept him as the GOAT and it will help his case if he wins a couple of more Slams outside of RG.

In my subjective opinion, I will think of Nadal as the GOAT if he finishes his career at least 2 Slams better than Federer and Djokovic. If Djokovic ties or beats Federer’s Slam count and finishes his career within 2 Slams of Nadal, I will pick Djokovic as my GOAT - I already think he is the BOAT. If Djokovic does not get to Federer‘s Slam count and Nadal finishes only 1 Slam ahead of Federer, I will continue to think of Federer as the GOAT which is my current opinion. There is no point arguing with me because I am going by my ‘eye test’ and arbitrary criterion I choose to pick - I have no interest in convincing other people to think like me.
No one can be GOAT whilst Nadal totally dominates clay on which everyone else can't get a look in.
 

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
Funny how many people who were certain Federer was the GOAT 4 or 5 years ago, suddenly don't believe in the concept of the GOAT now Nadal has tied the slam record.LOL!

It's so transparent and maybe the only way to save Fed's legacy. His fan club (in the media, not just his actual fans) built him up so much into this mythical GOAT thing for so long, that seeing one or two players in his own era overtake him while still playing is a crushing blow. So don't let those guys get the GOAT title. Let there be no GOAT, so Federer still gets to hold onto his dignity and claim he was one three players who were equally good in different ways.

If no one disputed the concept of GOAT when it was universally regarded as Federer, then the concept ain't going anywhere now that he can't universally be considered that.
Even more funny how some Rafa fans just lump all Fed fans into one category of thinking # of slams is the only factor of being GOAT. Many of us, including myself, consider him GOAT due to many factors including slam titles, weeks at #1, Masters, YEC and dispersion of titles across outdoor and indoor hard/grass/clay.
 
GOAT has always been a subjective title and the Federer-lovers were just hiding behind the 20-slam, 310 weeks at #1 records as being concrete reasons for him to be the GOAT because they thought those records would never be broken. Now that both records look like they will be broken next year by Federer’s two biggest rivals, many experts are starting to say that the GOAT title is subjective so that they have the freedom to still pick Federer as their choice.

Apart from hardcore Nadal fans and lovers of clay court tennis, no one else (or very few) in the tennis world thinks of Nadal as their subjective choice for GOAT in their minds because they think both Federer and Djokovic are better than Nadal on grass and hard courts which they feel are more important surfaces. So, Nadal has to finish at least 2 or 3 Slams ahead of Federer and Djokovic by the time they all retire for many people to grudgingly accept him as the GOAT and it will help his case if he wins a couple of more Slams outside of RG.

In my subjective opinion, I will think of Nadal as the GOAT if he finishes his career at least 2 Slams better than Federer and Djokovic. If Djokovic ties or beats Federer’s Slam count and finishes his career within 2 Slams of Nadal, I will pick Djokovic as my GOAT - I already think he is the BOAT. If Djokovic does not get to Federer‘s Slam count and Nadal finishes only 1 Slam ahead of Federer, I will continue to think of Federer as the GOAT which is my current opinion. There is no point arguing with me because I am going by my ‘eye test’ and arbitrary criterion I choose to pick - I have no interest in convincing other people to think like me.
Refreshing honesty. It's sad though.
 

USO

Banned
“Personally, I don’t believe in the concept of ‘greatest of all time’. I think we can debate, if anything, the “most successful”, who has achieved the most in their career,”Annacone said in a recent interview.

Along with the Slams, Annacone feels other metrics like the weeks spent at world number one, Masters 1000 titles, Davis Cup titles, should also be considered. The 57-year-old coach then cited the example of Pete Sampras. According to Annacone, Pete Sampras once said that his greatest achievement is not the 14 Grand Slams won, but ending the year as the top-ranked player, a record six times. Djokovic has a chance of equaling that record this year.

He also pointed out that Djokovic has the best stats among the three in the last decade. “In short: the GOAT, for me, is not there. If anything, there will be a MAOAT: the most accomplished of all times,” Annacone expressed."


Link: atp-tennis-news-roger-federer-former-coach-dismisses-goat-debate-rafael-nadal-novak-djokovic

On a side Annacone gave his comments on the possible match-up between Coric and Nadal in the on-going Paris Masters. "Roger Federer's former coach Paul Annacone believes Borna Coric would be the favorite if he locks horns with Rafael Nadal in the third round. “I think Lopez is a dangerous match-up but let’s not forget that Borna Coric is two and two with Rafa,” Annacone said. “And one of those wins is indoors at Basel. So if Coric and Nadal play, I’m leaning Coric. I’m calling it now guys.”

Link: https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-paul-annacone-predicts-borna-coric-beat-rafael-nadal-meet-paris-masters?key1=googlenews
Wow it seems that he’s been hanging out with Goran. :unsure:
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Well who cares what these guys say, you have octogon, uso, Beckerserve and the cult keep talking about that it's not something you value when talking about greatness.
 

ForehandRF

Hall of Fame
No one can be GOAT whilst Nadal totally dominates clay on which everyone else can't get a look in.
We've had this conversation before.No one can dominate every surface because no player is perfect and nobody can be the best at everything, but as long as one player is the most successful overall, then he can be considered the greatest.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
We've had this conversation before.No one can dominate every surface because no player is perfect and nobody can be the best at everything, but as long as one player is the most successful overall, then he can be considered the greatest.
But no one else dominates any surface like Rafa dominates clay.
 
Weeks at #1 is definitely underrated.
It's so underrated every other thread is about it.

In boxing nobody's interested in rankings much. It's a mano-a-mano sport, like tennis. Hence to beat your greatest rivals and to win that big finale is what really counts most. Rankings' purpose is primarily for seeding and qualifying. In football does anyone give a damn whom FIFA ranks as best?

No 1 is important but it's not in the same class as slams.
 
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BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
All the people who repeatedly said the GOAT was all about slams now don't think so because Nadal has equalled Federer's slam count.
Really? I've been a Fed fan since 1999-2000 and have repeatedly said that if and when Nadal gets to 21 slams, he's the GOAT. So have many other Fed fans, so your theory doesn't hold any credence.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Really? I've been a Fed fan since 1999-2000 and have repeatedly said that if and when Nadal gets to 21 slams, he's the GOAT. So have many other Fed fans, so your theory doesn't hold any credence.
All the people who repeatedly said the GOAT was all about slams now don't think so because Nadal has equalled Federer's slam count. It is clear that the GOAT is very subjective issue.
 

Beckerserve

Legend
“Personally, I don’t believe in the concept of ‘greatest of all time’. I think we can debate, if anything, the “most successful”, who has achieved the most in their career,”Annacone said in a recent interview.

Along with the Slams, Annacone feels other metrics like the weeks spent at world number one, Masters 1000 titles, Davis Cup titles, should also be considered. The 57-year-old coach then cited the example of Pete Sampras. According to Annacone, Pete Sampras once said that his greatest achievement is not the 14 Grand Slams won, but ending the year as the top-ranked player, a record six times. Djokovic has a chance of equaling that record this year.

He also pointed out that Djokovic has the best stats among the three in the last decade. “In short: the GOAT, for me, is not there. If anything, there will be a MAOAT: the most accomplished of all times,” Annacone expressed."


Link: atp-tennis-news-roger-federer-former-coach-dismisses-goat-debate-rafael-nadal-novak-djokovic

On a side Annacone gave his comments on the possible match-up between Coric and Nadal in the on-going Paris Masters. "Roger Federer's former coach Paul Annacone believes Borna Coric would be the favorite if he locks horns with Rafael Nadal in the third round. “I think Lopez is a dangerous match-up but let’s not forget that Borna Coric is two and two with Rafa,” Annacone said. “And one of those wins is indoors at Basel. So if Coric and Nadal play, I’m leaning Coric. I’m calling it now guys.”

Link: https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-paul-annacone-predicts-borna-coric-beat-rafael-nadal-meet-paris-masters?key1=googlenews
Funny this given Annacone has previously said Majors are what count. Hahaha.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Funny this given Annacone has previously said Majors are what count. Hahaha.
These clowns think they are slick. Moving the goalposts now for Rafa and to protect Fed.

Too late to play the "voice of reason" Annacone. You damned well know you had a first class ticket on the "Federer is GOAT train" when everyone else was on it and it was all about Majors. Not here for this mealy mouthed backtracking.
 

Beckerserve

Legend
These clowns think they are slick. Moving the goalposts now for Rafa and to protect Fed.

Too late to play the "voice of reason" Annacone. You damned well know you had a first class ticket on the "Federer is GOAT train" when everyone else was on it and it was all about Majors. Not here for this mealy mouthed backtracking.
Their whines make Rafas win even sweeter. Loving them. Running out of popcorn though.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
These clowns think they are slick. Moving the goalposts now for Rafa and to protect Fed.

Too late to play the "voice of reason" Annacone. You damned well know you had a first class ticket on the "Federer is GOAT train" when everyone else was on it and it was all about Majors. Not here for this mealy mouthed backtracking.
I've tweeted Annacone to point this out. It was always obvious to me that the criteria for GOAT was based on Federer's achievements and that the goalpost would be moved as soon as that didn't apply anymore. In the end it will come down to who they think is the best ambassador for tennis. That's why I don't think Djokovic should kill himself chasing the goals as they are right now. Bookmark this comment.
 

demrle

Professional
I've tweeted Annacone to point this out. It was always obvious to me that the criteria for GOAT was based on Federer's achievements and that the goalpost would be moved as soon as that didn't apply anymore. In the end it will come down to who they think is the best ambassador for tennis. That's why I don't think Djokovic should kill himself chasing the goals as they are right now. Bookmark this comment.
The only problem is that Nadal and Djokovic will most probably play way longer than Federer from this point on and absolutely obliterate all of his records. Federer of 2025 will be a pendant to Sampras of today, i.e. no one in his sane mind will be trying to argue the case of him being the GOAT. Bookmark this comment :)
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
The only problem is that Nadal and Djokovic will most probably play way longer than Federer from this point on and absolutely obliterate all of his records. Federer of 2025 will be a pendant to Sampras of today, i.e. no one in his sane mind will be trying to argue the case of him being the GOAT. Bookmark this comment :)

Well, that's kind of why the new argument, as demonstrated by Paul Annacone is...."there is no GOAT".

That is how insidious these Fed boosters are. If Fed cannot have the GOAT title (which is clearly happening), try and devalue the very concept of the title itself, so no one else can have it either. They really think people are too stupid to realise what they are doing.
 

demrle

Professional
Well, that's kind of why the new argument, as demonstrated by Paul Annacone is...."there is no GOAT".

That is how insidious these Fed boosters are. If Fed cannot have the GOAT title (which is clearly happening), try and devalue the very concept of the title itself, so no one else can have it either. They really think people are too stupid to realise what they are doing.
You are probably right, but that's a futile effort on their part. Time will do its work. By the time Nadal and Djokovic retire Federer will have fallen into relative obscurity comparing to his notoriety of our days. I'm aware how ludicrous it sounds to suggest something like that at the moment, but that's just the natural way of things. Five years ago it was an absolute heresy to suggest anything different from Federer being the GOAT, while today it is a completely legitimate topic for discussion. That trend will continue.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
The only problem is that Nadal and Djokovic will most probably play way longer than Federer from this point on and absolutely obliterate all of his records. Federer of 2025 will be a pendant to Sampras of today, i.e. no one in his sane mind will be trying to argue the case of him being the GOAT. Bookmark this comment :)
Federer has just two great records: number of slams; weeks at #1. Rafa has equalled his number of slams and Djokovic will equal/pass his weeks at #1 soon. So now Federer's fans are bigging up QF appearances. Really?
 

demrle

Professional
Federer has just two great records: number of slams; weeks at #1. Rafa has equalled his number of slams and Djokovic will equal/pass his weeks at #1 soon. So now Federer's fans are bigging up QF appearances. Really?
Don't forget the word "consecutive". Without that qualifier Fed loses about 2/3 of his remaining "records".
 

blablavla

Legend
It's so underrated every other thread is about it.

In boxing nobody's interested in rankings much. It's a mano-a-mano sport, like tennis. Hence to beat your greatest rivals and to win that big finale is what really counts most. Rankings' purpose is primarily for seeding and qualifying. In football does anyone give a damn whom FIFA ranks as best?

No 1 is important but it's not in the same class as slams.
there is one difference.
top boxers fight 1-2 matches per year
FIFA WC happens once every 4 years

tennis is played 11 months per year with 4 GS + WTF + a bunch of M1000, on various surfaces in various climacteric conditions, that's where the ranking comes to help :cool:
 

demrle

Professional
Its a pre-planned one,some posters gave enough hint of it.... We must appreciate their persistence ans perseverance. Meanwhile Get ready for few more surprises. :p
We have a long way to go till we get to

"Small Semi-Final Streak (ATP 500/CS, ATP 250/WS)" :-D :-D :-D

You've been warned.
 

blablavla

Legend
We have a long way to go till we get to

"Small Semi-Final Streak (ATP 500/CS, ATP 250/WS)" :-D :-D :-D

You've been warned.
oh no dude, you are totally wrong here.
that bs was started by the Djokodal fanboiz that at some point in time claimed that losing in first rounds is better than reaching QF / SF / F and losing there.

with just as late as today or yesterday one of these d*nderh**ds discussing with you whether holding the #1 position diminished Fed legacy.
so you are now getting the BS that was carefully seeded, nurtured and promoted by "geniuses" like you
or in another words, if you don't like what you see in the mirror, don't blame the mirror :cool:

Can we really even count 2004-2008?
By all means, at least by a factor 0.5
Could you argue that those #1 finishes actually diminish Federer's legacy?
 

demrle

Professional
oh no dude, you are totally wrong here.
that bs was started by the Djokodal fanboiz that at some point in time claimed that losing in first rounds is better than reaching QF / SF / F and losing there.

with just as late as today or yesterday one of these d*nderh**ds discussing with you whether holding the #1 position diminished Fed legacy.
so you are now getting the BS that was carefully seeded, nurtured and promoted by "geniuses" like you
or in another words, if you don't like what you see in the mirror, don't blame the mirror :cool:
No no, I think you misunderstood me, I'm all for

"Small Semi-Final Streak (ATP 500/CS, ATP 250/WS)"

being a seminal factor in the GOAT debate

 

Ogi44

Rookie
It's so underrated every other thread is about it.

In boxing nobody's interested in rankings much. It's a mano-a-mano sport, like tennis. Hence to beat your greatest rivals and to win that big finale is what really counts most. Rankings' purpose is primarily for seeding and qualifying. In football does anyone give a damn whom FIFA ranks as best?

No 1 is important but it's not in the same class as slams.
But we are not talking about boxing or football here, but tennis, and even in football its the season end chapion who matters most . Team who has most points for the season. Nothing else comes close. GS count is recency bias created by media in 90s to support Sampras GOAT narative. Ask Gonzales or Kramer how much they cared about French Open in the 50s and 60s, or how much slams they won. Yes, you guessed the answer. So, to compare this great players with current ones by counting slam titles is utter nonsense.
 
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