Comparing Federer's 2017 season to Djokovic's 2023

AO 06? what?

that was prime federer.

AO 17/AO 18 from fed himself were clearly worse for starters.
AO '18 was generally clean and steady from Federer, aside from the lulls against Cilic and even with the CIE competition TM

AO '17 was more volatile but the messiness came against Nadal, Wawrinka, and Nishikori, who were playing great at times

AO '06 by contrast was colored by the messiness against Haas and Keifer (who weren't playing great in the sets they won), by Federer getting genuinely pushed around by Davydenko and Baghdatis (before simultaneously elevating and waiting out their reservoir of good tennis), and by Federer's lingering ankle injury (which makes me question his ability to elevate against mentally strong and consistently threatening opposition)

i'd say on average level, Federer's peaks in AO '06 would put that version over '17 and '18, but in terms of an accumulation of bad tennis AO '06 would go below. could toss in Wimbly '12 with the Backerer sets

TL;DR (/j):
Federer should be stripped of the title, not because he hit the ball boy but because it was the weakest slam win of all time. Going to 5 sets with pigeon Haas? Lucky escape against journeyman Davydenko? BAGHDATIS in the final! ROFLMAO!
 
Maybe so, but I don’t think he had a super pronounced dip after actually playing the clay season in 2019 so it’s hard to say how much his June-Nov numbers would take a hit, if at all.
He was a couple years older by 2019, but he was also in more of a rhythm. He wasn't ramping up from 0 the way he was in 2017.
 
AO '18 was generally clean and steady from Federer, aside from the lulls against Cilic and even with the CIE competition TM

AO '17 was more volatile but the messiness came against Nadal, Wawrinka, and Nishikori, who were playing great at times

AO '06 by contrast was colored by the messiness against Haas and Keifer (who weren't playing great in the sets they won), by Federer getting genuinely pushed around by Davydenko and Baghdatis (before simultaneously elevating and waiting out their reservoir of good tennis), and by Federer's lingering ankle injury (which makes me question his ability to elevate against mentally strong and consistently threatening opposition)

i'd say on average level, Federer's peaks in AO '06 would put that version over '17 and '18, but in terms of an accumulation of bad tennis AO '06 would go below. could toss in Wimbly '12 with the Backerer sets

TL;DR (/j):

except federer did elevate his level vs a threatening davydenko at that AO (&vs Haas in the 5th set)

the kiefer match was just a couple of bad games towards end of 2nd set.
federer played well in 1st set and crushed Kiefer in the 3rd and 4th sets. Kiefer was playing well in the 2nd set btw.
Haas was playing well in sets 3 and 4 too.

federer did have some lulls in AO 06, but when he got going, he played at peak level. Hence 10 bagel, breadstick or 6-2 sets in that.

the physical difference is just too big between AO 06 fed and AO 17/18 fed. Its well above.
 
At first glance, you look at Djokovic's season and conclude immediately that it was a much better season:
3 Slams won vs 2 Slams won
Slam loss was a final vs Slam loss was a QF
ATP Finals won vs ATP Finals semi
Finished year end No.1 vs No.2

You're right of course, but I want to look at how similar these seasons actually are.
* Both players turned 36.
* Both players had one slam loss.
* Both players won 7 titles.
* Both reached 8 finals.
* Both played a similar amount of matches. Federer-59. Djokovic-63. Just 4 matches more.

But actually, Federer has a few points where he's ahead:
* A better winning percentage. Federer 54-5 (92%). Djokovic 56-7 (89%).
* Better record vs top 10 (where historically Djokovic was more accomplished). Federer: 14-2 (88%). Djokovic: 17-5 (77%).
* 4-0 Vs. Nadal (The eventual year end No.1)

Titles
Federer won 2 Slams (Australian Open, Wimbledon). 3 Masters (Indian Wells, Miami, Shanghai) and 2 500's (Halle, Basel). He reached the final of another Masters (Canadian Open).
Djokovic won 3 Slams (Australian Open, RG, USO), ATP Finals, 2 Masters (Cincinnati, Paris) and a 250 (Adelaide). He reached the final of Wimbledon.

Federer loses (5):
Evgeny Donskoy (116), Dubai 2R, 6–3, 6–7(7–9), 6–7(5–7)
Tommy Haas (302), Stuttgart 2R, 6–2, 6–7(8–10), 4–6
Alexander Zverev (8), Canada F, 3-6, 4-6
Del Potro (28), USO QF, 5–7, 6–3, 6–7(8–10), 4–6
David Goffin (8), ATP Finals, 6–2, 3–6, 4–6.

Djokovic loses (7):
Daniil Medvedev (7), Dubai SF, 4-6, 4-6
Lorenzo Musetti (21), Monte Carlo 3R, 6–4, 5–7, 4–6
Dušan Lajović (70), Srpska Open QF, 4–6, 6–7(6–8)
Holger Rune (7), Rome QF, 2–6, 6–4, 2–6
Carlos Alcaraz (1), Wimbledon F, 6–1, 6–7(6–8), 1–6, 6–3, 4–6
Jannik Sinner (4), ATP Finals RR, 5–7, 7–6(7–5), 6–7(2–7)
Jannik Sinner (4), Davies Cup Finals, 2–6, 6–2, 5–7

So what happened? Why did Federer fall short despite showing a maybe more consistent form?
One thing to note is Federer decided to skip the whole clay season. He never played RG. Obviously clay being his weakest surface, that helped his winning percentage, and perhaps helped to his very successful grass season.
So Federer actually only played 3 slams while Djokovic contested all 4.

Let's look at the most significant loses:
Federer had 3 out of 5.
Canada finals to Zverev (3-6, 4-6). A pretty convincing loss to a player he had won twice at this point, and lost once.
Del Potro at USO QF (5–7, 6–3, 6–7(8–10), 4–6). Federer has a very interesting history with Del Potro. While he has a pretty convincing h2h with him (18-7), basically ALL loses to him were significant ones:
After winning their first 6 meetings, Federer lost to him at the USO F. Also lost at ATP Finals 2009 RR (still he qualified to the semis). 2012 Basel F, 2012 ATP finals RR (again managed to qualify), 2013 Basel F, and the last loss of his career to him - 2018 Indian Wells F, where he lost after having 3 MP on his serve! (classic Fed). So it seems like Federer has a bit of a problem against Del Potro on the very big matches. Maybe even had a flashback to that USO final he lost to him way back then.
David Goffin at ATP Finals SF (6–2, 3–6, 4–6). Now I'm really getting annoyed. The pair met 11 times and this is the ONLY time Federer lost to Goffin. Basically after winning a very relaxed first set, Fed shat the bed. Why?

Djokovic had only 1 out of 7 (maybe 2)
Alcaraz Wimbledon F (6–1, 6–7(6–8), 1–6, 6–3, 4–6). A very epic and historic final. Both gave it their all.
Medvedev Dubai SF (4-6, 4-6). It's a 500 and a semi but still. He gets to a final and wins another Dubai. It's not nothing.
An almost big loss was that RR to Sinner at the ATP Finals, but it ended up not mattering when he still qualified and won the title (beating Sinner). Of course he almost didn't qualify, Sinner just had to lose to Rune to make Djokovic not qualify, but he chose his integrity over the title.
One more thing to note about Djokovic RG title: he had a very competitive match against Alcaraz SF, until Carlos became Cramparaz. Would he have won the title if he didn't?

A short summary of Nadal's 2022 (where he also turned 36):
Won 2 slams (AO and RG)
Won 2 more titles (Melbourne and Mexico)
Win loss record 39-8 (83%). 8-3 (73%) against top 10.
Finished year end No.2
Also lost just 1 slam match (USO 4R against Tiafoe (26) (4–6, 6–4, 4–6, 3–6)). At Wimbledon he retired before SF.
Reached the final of Indian Wells and lost to Taylor Fritz (20) (3–6, 6–7(5–7))
Nadal's best start to an ATP Tour season, when he won his first 20 matches (and three titles, including the Australian Open) in a row.
Won the last title of his career (RG).
So a very impressive season as well for a 36 year old.

So what did we learn here today?
That Djokovic knows when to lose and when to win?
That Federer doesn't? He likes to choke? That being his fan is pain?
That's it all fine margins despite a shallow first look that makes it seem much bigger than it is?
I don't know.
all that you said fed had better (h2h, h2h to rafa, W% vs top10) he did because he avoided his worst surface (entire clay season) and prepared for other 2 (but he missed YE#1 for it)
 
In fact Federer 2017 is barely ahead of Djokovic 2022 despite being banned from 4 masters plus Shanghai cancellation and 2 slams.

Djokovic points are in same ballpark I would assume. Maybe 1500 pts behind than Federer.
if W22 points was counted no1e would most probable be YE#1 despite all bans
 
AO '06/Wimbly '21?

Fed was very up and down in 2006 AO (we all know why, lingering ankle injury from end of 2005) but peak levels he reached were still high. He still showcased some brilliant play, he just wasn't consistent with it and was almost Jekyll and Hyde from set to set.

2021 Novak played a bad 1st set in the final but otherwise for comparison handled an in-form Shapo in straights while Nadal labored and had to rely on umpire's help and Shapo choking to barely get the win.
 
All 3 had similar seasons at 36. Nadal and Federer did get some minor injuries that ruined the 2 for them, but they were pretty similar otherwise.
 
2022 and 2023 are almost indistinguishable, in fact 2022 is probably even weaker due to the COVID and Russian bans
2022 is much much weaker mainly for the #1 HC player ever being denied HC slams (along with a few more top level tournaments) for reasons not related to tennis. It completely invalidated what happened in Melbourne and cast a bit of a shadow on Alcaraz' 1st slam title as well. That was confirmed when Djoko finished the year with 18-1 record after returning to the tour post USO.

You could argue clay was stronger in 2022 just because Dull won RG, and yet it was no-stamina Djokovic messed up after Melbourne, who played a couple of average to ok-ish matches in Madrid and RG to save the clay season and make it somewhat decent. Other than that it was a sheetshow not worth a dime.
 
2022 is much much weaker mainly for the #1 HC player ever being denied HC slams (along with a few more top level tournaments) for reasons not related to tennis. It completely invalidated what happened in Melbourne and cast a bit of a shadow on Alcaraz' 1st slam title as well. That was confirmed when Djoko finished the year with 18-1 record after returning to the tour post USO.

You could argue clay was stronger in 2022 just because Dull won RG, and yet it was no-stamina Djokovic messed up after Melbourne, who played a couple of average to ok-ish matches in Madrid and RG to save the clay season and make it somewhat decent. Other than that it was a sheetshow not worth a dime.
I personally think 2022-2025 is now even worse than the early 2000s but I understand that is a niche opinion and hard to prove.
 
I personally think 2022-2025 is now even worse than the early 2000s but I understand that is a niche opinion and hard to prove.
Was the early 2000’s that bad though? Only 2002 was exceptionally weak. The surrounding years weren’t that great (though I’d argue 2001 was not bad at all) but I think they were definitely on par with or even stronger than like 2016-2021, never mind 2022-2025.
 
2021 Novak played a bad 1st set in the final but otherwise for comparison handled an in-form Shapo in straights while Nadal labored and had to rely on umpire's help and Shapo choking to barely get the win.
huh, to me the Djokovic-Shapo match is the definition of getting away with (generously: inducing) relentless Shapo choking, so i don't really see that as a difference. and then Shapo had straight setted Zv*rev (good win even if a poor version) in the round previous to the Nadal match, so i think he was reasonably in-form there too
 
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